Talk:Girl Guides/Archive 1

Title
Couldn't this page be deleted in favor of the Girl Guide and Girl Scout page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Runnerbee17 (talk • contribs) 04:04, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

No, this page is about the movement, Girl Guide and Girl Scout is about the section/agegroup. The "brother" of this page is Scouting, the "brother" of Girl Guide and Girl Scout is Boy Scout. --Egel Reaction? 09:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Perhaps it should be called Girl Guiding? The current titles are confusing! Kingbird (talk) 18:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I leave that up to you GGGS Task Force Coordinator. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 21:42, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move
I propose this article be renamed Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting. The new title would more accurately reflect the article's subject. The current title, Girl Guides, is too similar to the article Girl Guide and is confusing. I additionally propose that the page Girl Guides redirects to Girl Guide and Girl Scout and that pages are created called Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting respectively, that redirect to this article. Kingbird (talk) 05:54, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I should make it clear that the page Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting actually already exists. It currently redirects to Girl Guide and Girl Scout. This is confusing as well. With the changes I'm suggesting, if it ends in -ing, it's about the movement. If it doesn't end in -ing, it's about the section/age group. Kingbird (talk) 06:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Support, makes sense to me. Let's wait 3-5 days for more input. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 11:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose at this point, because I think some preliminary centralised discussion should take place first, if it hasn't already (and if it has, then link to it please). There are at least two open related requests at this time: This RM, and a requested merge between Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting and Girl Guides.

The worldwide situation is extremely complicated and further organisational changes are inevitable in the long term, see Scouting.

There's an overall plan for the relevant articles at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting which includes the observations

Girl Guide, Girl Scout - redirect to GG&GS (US line of thinking)
 * Gone stale, not move for now. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 17:59, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

and

''Boy Scouts, Girl Guides, etc - General summary pages that have see also links to other Scouting pages. Used to avoid to lead users to more indepth articles, no longer disambiguation pages due to all the confusion of different naming conventions. All other plurals redirect to the singular per Wikipedia standard, not to Scouting or a separate organization oriented article''

so rather than reinventing the wheel, let's see whether this plan is still a good one, and if not let's discuss and either abandon or update it rather than ignoring it. Andrewa (talk) 06:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)


 * As you have requested a centralised discussion, I have opened one at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scouting. I have responded to your comments there. Kingbird (talk) 05:55, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I've left comments on WT:SCOUT that cover a number of articles with this type of issue. You can't separate the person from the movement; you can't have a Girl Scout without Girl Scouting and vice versa.  In trying to create a universal article covering 144 different national Scout organizations with 144 different programs we end up with an article of generalities.  --—  Gadget850 (Ed)  talk  -  12:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This article should be titled "Guides" - a Guide in most countries now can be a girl or a boy - so the title is not gender correct. --Gothgirlangel1981 (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You are wrong, only a third of the 144 Guide organizations admits boys. 34 of these 51 organizations call male members Scouts. --jergen (talk) 18:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Co-ed organizations call all members (male and female) Scouts or call the male members "Scouts" and the female members "Guides". Only Greece and some South-American countries have co-ed organizations who call all members Guides, total membership 70,000 to 80,000, so maybe there are maximal 20,000 male Guides. There are around 6,000,000 girls who call them selfs Girl Guides, around 3,500,000 girls who call them selfs Girl Scouts and around 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 girls who call them selfs Scouts. (I can't find how many female Scouts there are in Indonesia, looking at the pictures I think 30% to 50% of 8,000,000) So 0,3 % of the Guides are male and 15% of the Scouts are female. --Egel Reaction? 21:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * A broader discussion is at Talk:Boy Scout. — Rlevse  •  Talk  • 12:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, my daughter is a Guide in Queensland, Australia, and while there are non-co-ed guiding organisations like that in Australia, I think there should be a separate article with links to other scouting articles. Folding the Guides under Scouts would be a bit like folding USA under England. An article like this allows other scouting movement articles to be linked to in a way that clarifies Guidings relationship with the rest of the movement, rather than implying that Guiding is a sort of appendix to Scouting. Alexlaw65 (talk) 10:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC) (copied to the broader discussion --Egel Reaction? 11:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC))

Where are the cookies?
Girl scouts are known for cookies, so why isn't it mentioned anywhere in this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.254.1.243 (talk) 16:29, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That applies only to the USA and Canada. Girls Scout Cookies are quite unknown outside of North America. --jergen (talk) 16:51, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 14:40, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

One male member

 * I heard on UK TV recently that one man is a member of the Girl Guides :: he designed their new uniforms, and thus got the royalties from making them, and he gave all those royalties to the Girl Guides movement, which as a reward made him an honorary member of them,. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 23:29, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Presumably Girlguiding UK? ---— Gadget850 (Ed)  talk 23:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Adult males, ages 18 and up are able to be members of Girl Scouts and Girl Guides at the adult membership level. phrogster (talk) 05:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Which country? There are several Guiding organizations that accept Males in all sections (eg Cyprus). --jergen (talk) 08:38, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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Girl Guides and Girl Scouts
My attention has been brought to here because of the naming mess in this topic area that was flagged by the listing at WP:MALPLACED. Girl Scouts redirected to Girl Scouts (disambiguation) – I've fixed that by reverting to previous versions of these pages, but am not satisfied with the status quo.

I see that there has been some past discussions about naming and merging articles, and there is even a WikiProject subpage WikiProject Scouting/Merge devoted to this. Despite that, after many years, we still have a confusing mess. Girl Scouts is not ambiguous, it is a broad concept. Despite that, it has a long history as a disambiguation page. The title was redirected to Girl Guides back in 2013, and that change did stick for four years, but hasn't proven to be stable over the long term. There is a fundamental problem here. This is not a simple WP:ENGVAR situation as Humour, for example. Americans have no problem with the extra "u", as that's a minor and well-known spelling variation. Here, guide and scout have distinctly different meanings, and the term "Girl Guide" is foreign. The assumption is that it must be something different than a Girl Scout, because, if it was a Girl Scout then that common term would be used. I was in the YMCA Indian Guides as a young boy, so we Americans do not commonly associate the term "Guide", as in Guiding, with girls. Thus the title of this article needs to be fixed, as with Girl Guiding and Girl Scouting. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:53, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please do not assume your cultural bias makes anything true. "the term "Girl Guide" is foreign" is untrue, as used in multiple English speaking nations. We have a whole WikiProject dedicated to this topic-we've got this. Trust the people actively involved to know their subject.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 23:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Kintetsubuffalo, the term "Girl Guide" is foreign to most Americans, I'm fairly confident of that. Though I'm not going to start randomly asking people in the street what a "Girl Guide" is. Maybe more women who've been Scouts themselves know about "Guides", I don't know.
 * Probably 99% of Americans will know what a "Girl Scout" is.
 * What is the difference between a "Girl Guide" and a "Girl Scout"? Honest question. If they are two different things then maybe we need separate articles for each of them.
 * The Project does not have everything straight. I'm here because the technical configuration threw red flags. Is there a WP:primary topic for Girl Scouts or is it an ambiguous term? wbm1058 (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Again, your cultural bias is showing-"foreign to most Americans". This is not Americapedia. They are not separate things, no more than truck or lorry are separate-but see Girl Guides paragraph 2. This is in fact a simple WP:ENGVAR situation. The Project has everything straighter than you do, as we specialize in these topics. You've done your duty, good job, move on.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 00:19, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Your attitude and tone stinks. This has nothing to do with "cultural bias". I take it from your response then, that Girl Scouts should redirect to Girl Guides, as there is no significant difference between the two. wbm1058 (talk) 00:36, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * , See this edit, which apparently threw no red flags for you. seems to think that there is a difference. wbm1058 (talk) 00:43, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe this does have something to do with Cultural bias. Your bias in assuming that "Guides" is a common, well-understood term in America. I don't think it is. The objective should be to make articles clear to everyone, by not making assumptions. wbm1058 (talk) 00:55, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Listen, doofus. BOTH NAMES ARE USED INTERCHANGEABLY. See World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts. "Guides" is a common, well-understood term in the 96% of the world that isn't America. Stop being obtuse, WP:DEADHORSE, and move on. No more time for you, good bye.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 01:04, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Hmm: Girl Scout Cookies. Not to be confused with Girl Guide Cookies. I did not know they were called something different in Canada. But they're all just the same cookies, right? I do know about lorries, and many other things British. Do they sell cookies in Japan? wbm1058 (talk) 01:10, 23 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I admit, I didn't scrutinize the Girl Guides article. I just assumed that Girl Guides was a UK-based scouts. The redirect to this article seems appropriate. I find it odd that girls are "guides" while boys are "scouts"... Jim1138 (talk) 06:08, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

, I remind you that a Scout is helpful, friendly, and courteous. I'm sure you know the B-R-D drill, if you revert my bold edits, then you must be willing to discuss them. If there is no difference between Scouts and Guides, and both are used interchangeably, then why do you revert this on the basis that Guiding is a "distinct concept". Either Scouting and Guiding are the same, or they're not. I think Scouting should be moved to Scouting and Guiding, a redirect I just created, as the scope of the article clearly covers both girls and boys. wbm1058 (talk) 10:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

A better term than "lorry" for comparison with this situation is biscuit. Note how that article goes out of its way to clearly describe the difference between the American and British biscuits. So, Girl Guide Biscuits? Apparently not. wbm1058 (talk) 12:25, 23 June 2017 (UTC)

If you asked me a week ago what a "girl guide" was, I would say that sounded like a 20-something year old woman who led visitors through a museum or tourist attraction, while verbally describing the history or significance of what they were seeing. In contrast, "lorry" has no alternative meaning in American English... it's only known in American English as a British English word for truck. wbm1058 (talk) 12:44, 23 June 2017 (UTC)
 * As Scouts, we're also taught to use our brains and consider the impact of our actions. Thus I am mystified why you would edit multiple articles and disambigs you admit you have no understanding of, the pursuit of some apparently terrifying "red flag" your sole consideration, and when undone, to pitch a fit because you need spoon-fed why your edits were inappropriate. Likewise, I do not greatly modify articles on quantum physics, nor do I insist that because it is beyond my understanding, that other (insert nationality here) will not understand it either. It is not my field, so I leave it to those who know their field. The rest of the world is sick to death of Americans who say, "I'm American and I never heard of xyz." I am not here to coddle you. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact, nor is the Scout Law.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:50, 26 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Oh, geesh. This isn't rocket science. FYI, I earned the Life rank when I was a teenager, so I do know something about the topic. Interestingly enough, that link redirects to Ranks in the Boy Scouts of America. That leads me to think that other countries don't have that rank. I'd say I probably know more about article titling and disambiguation conventions than you do. It's a shame that you keep spouting more venom at me, rather than engage on substance. wbm1058 (talk) 20:27, 27 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Please humour me by letting me mention another American organization. Boys & Girls Clubs of America. There is more than one youth group for girls. I initially thought that "Guides" was another one. It didn't occur to me that Scouts went by other names in the rest of the world, my bad. I probably shouldn't say this out loud, but to call girls Guides while boys are Scouts strikes me as a bit sexist . Maybe why the Americans decided to not use a different name for girls, so many years ago. Sorry if I'm bothering you with my musings. I'm OK with your reverts, some of which I concur with now, but not with your style of engagement. wbm1058 (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Warning message (promotional wording)
Hey so there's still a warning banner at the top of the page dated from April 2016 about wording being promotional and "without imparting real information". I've just gone through the article at length and don't feel this applies now? Can we take it down? (I've only been editing a super brief amount of time so I figured I'd check in before just removing it myself) Bookworm1045 (talk) 20:24, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

Single-Gender Mission
I'm undoing the last revert to ensure that the section title and contents are both as accurate as possible, and as consistent as possible across the section, with the Wikipedia Editing Guidelines. Of the choices between RS cited, more weight is given to those RS that are not directly linking to the organisations written about in this article, and of the non-organisation RS weight is given to any direct quote rather than author interpretation. Ergo, of the RS listed, the one which isn't a direct link to Girl Guides or Girlguiding (in this case the Metro piece) has the CEO of Girlguiding directly quoted as describing the organisation as 'single-gender': "Chief executive Julie Bentley, who is a staunch women’s rights campaigner, said this move means the organisation can hold true its values of inclusion. She said: ‘Girlguiding complies with the Equality Act 2010 which makes clear organisations providing single-gender services should treat people according to their acquired gender. ‘We welcome any young person who self-identifies as a girl or young woman.’" (bolding mine)--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 09:34, 27 September 2018 (UTC) (edit note: correcting error: now correctly reads single- not mixed-)--SakuraNoSeirei (talk) 11:13, 27 September 2018 (UTC)


 * This is relevant for Girlguiding (UK), but not for this article with a worldwide view. Some of your changes were plainly wrong, like stating that the Scout Association introduced a "mixed-gender" programme in 1976. --jergen (talk) 09:40, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

GOCE Copyedit
I've conducted a GOCE Copyedit for this article. Below are some significant points for regular editors to the page to take a look at. Most of these are items that I found during the copyedit whose dealing-with is either better left to editors more familiar with the topic or is outside the scope of the copyedit. The full edit is here. If you have any questions, please feel free to ping me in a discussion here. AviationFreak💬 17:38, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Removed from the last sentence in the lede's second paragraph as I couldn't figure out what the phrase was trying to convey. I feel the current sentence gives a good idea of how the name "Girl Scout"/"Girl Guide" has changed over time.
 * I couldn't find the 10,000,000 membership statistic in the linked WAGGGS archived source, so I removed it.
 * Citing in the lede should generally be "all-or-nothing", per WP:LEADCITE. In this article's lede, there are unreferenced sentences within the lede while others are referenced.
 * Several claims throughout the article unreferenced. If the article is to pass a GAN, all of the article's claims will need to be properly referenced.
 * - This is the first mention of "registration" for scouts, and "Scout Headquarters" is not explained or wikilinked.
 * Story about Peckham Rye Scouts seems underdeveloped - Is this an important part of the movement or is it just a relatively irrelevant anecdote?
 * First company in Girl Guiding should ideally be sourced to something other than the company's own website.
 * Is there are reason to mention the books about the Guide International Service?
 * Removed title of "head of the Family Planning Association" from the mention of Bentley because it seems to be irrelevant in this context.