Talk:Gitanos

loc
Well the Library of Congress Country Studies has wrong information which i have had to edit..--Burgas00 14:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Andalusian Spanish
Why do most, if not all, Roma in Spain speak Andalusian Spanish even outside Andalusia? Do they all originate or have roots in this region? --Guzman ramirez 18:27, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Not really. Some are of Andalusian origin and hence speak Andalusian, others speak with a "Gitano accent" but not Andalusian, some speak with the local accent (see Peret) and some you won't know that they are Gitanos in superficial contact. It can be that you live in a neighborhood or region with lots of Andalusian immigration. --Error 23:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Agree. Asterion talk 07:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I agree, come to think of it. There is a Gitano accent which is distinct. Nevertheless it sounds to me like it is very much influenced by or even based on the Andalusian one. Albeit, I have never heard a Galician or Asturian Gitano, so I dont know how they would speak... I wouldnt say Peret speaks with a Catalan accent though. --Guzman ramirez 12:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Los gitanos asturianos hablan prácticamente igual que los del "resto" de España. Tienen el mismo acento particular, completamente diferente al habla típica asturiana. 81.9.221.231 21:21, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic slurs...
I can't imagine the comment below on the article (and a similar one later one) is a unbiased "fact", but is rather an unsubstantied ethnic slur. I think it needs to be reverted/changed, but I am not an expert on the Roma in Spain so don't feel qualified. Perhaps someone else can help.

"Many of them took up a sedentary form of life, stealing from respectful citizens. Although rich yet largely illiterate, they were usually hostile and offensive toward Spanish society." Gmot 17:54, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Go ahead and take it out; no matter what truth there is in those 2 sentences (doubtful, but possible), there isn't any way this could be considered "encyclopedic". Common sense should rule here. +ILike2BeAnonymous 19:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds reasonable - I've done that.Gmot 22:48, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you consider them ethnically Spanish?
 * No, ethnically they are considered "Chachos" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.84.69.160 (talk) 21:48, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The previous comment is a racist slur. As a group, their origins are far out of Spain, but they were already living in Spain when the term "Spain" was officially used for the first time... and Spain is one of the oldest modern nations. So it would be debatable. --MaeseLeon (talk) 14:36, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

"Húngaros"??
"Spanish Roma are usually divided into two main groups: gitanos and húngaros (for Hungarians)."

It's the very first time in my entire life I hear of this. I think it's false; citation needed urgently. I've heard of "zíngaro" as a sinonym of Gipsy, althought not an "exact" sinonym but one wich tends to be more kind and with less "negative connotations" that "gitano". But "húngaros"? No way; nobody says that here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.123.158.114 (talk) 21:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

never heard of the singer "la Húngara"?:-)--Guzman ramirez 22:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I guess zíngaro comes from French Tsigane. They must represent the minority of Roma in Spain which are of Sinti or Manouche origin as opposed to local origin.--Guzman ramirez 11:29, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * In San Sebastián, there is a festival in which the locals dress "Gypsy-style" (in Basque buhameak, from "Bohemia") as the nomad tinkerers and traders coming from France. --Error 02:06, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

From Africa or branched of through Europe?
I'd like to see the records saying that the Gitanos (Spanish Roms) entered Spain via Africa. I personally find it hard to accept this as I see too many similarities between the Spanish Roms and European groups such as the Romanichal of England. Its as though they split from one branch.

I feel any influence from African would have come via ethnic Moors and Berbers living in Spain alongside Roms.

In addition to this the Spanish Roms call themselves Cale (Kahl-eh) which is also a title used by Welsh Romanichal as well as some other Romani groups in Europe. The Romani title 'Kale' is either from the Romani word Kalo (m) Kali (f) Kale (p) meaning 'black' or it is from the Sanskrit (from which Romani originates) Kule / kula meaning 'race, family, lineage family'.

When looking at the Nomadic groups of North Africa then the only Romani groups living there arrived in later times via Europe and there are no remnance from a Romani people ever travelling there during a time prior to their appearance in Spain.

There are Domari nomadic groups living in some parts of North Africa who branched off from Islamic Asian nomads but these people are of no relation to the Romani speaking Gitanos. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.34.227.166 (talk) 15:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I wouldnt say there is no relation between Domari and Romani. Both languages are closely related, even if the two groups migrated from India at different times. Some Roma must have entered Spain from the North. However, it is surprising that aroun 50% of Roma in Spain are concentrated in the southern region of Andalusia. Their culture, music and customs is also quite distinct from European Gypsies. I see little similarity in any way with the Romnichal of England.

Nevertheless, although there are some Roma in Morocco, they are strongly Andalusian and, although they are fluent in Arabic, their mother language remains Spanish. I assume they came to Morocco from Spain perhaps during the Spanish mandate over northern morocco. --Guzman ramirez 11:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't have sources around but I have read that some of the Berber tribes are of Gypsy origin. --Error 02:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Real Gitanos are Semitics who came to Europe from Egypt,Israel or Morocco.. many people with "ethnic" east Indian blood are calling themselves gypsies because the Indian blood both groups share Came from a nomadic Indian group..for me I don't see the Italian,Persian,Aryan,Indo-European,Eurasians..whatever group you wish to call them as being real Gitanos. --Lupe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.38.192 (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Paco de Lucía, gitano?
Paco de Lucía isn't "gitano". Check it yourselves. I'd correct it myself but I've never edited wikipedia and I'm neither fluent in english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.26.5.150 (talk) 04:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

No, Paco de Lucía is not "gitano". That should be corrected. Flamenco isn't "gitano" neither. --62.42.162.62 (talk) 19:48, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Affinity between Flamenco and North Indian music
While Flamenco has many influences (especially North African), there is a great affinity between Flamenco and North Indian music, which resulted in many collaborations between Flamenco musicians and North Indian musicians, and this should be mentioned in the article, too. Kenshin (talk) 08:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

uh?
"Spanish Romanies tend to speak Caló which is basically Andalusian Spanish with a large number of Romani loan words."

Of course not. Calo is an Indoiranian language with no clear resemblance to any form of Spanish, excluding the occasional loan words. For a clear picture, look the case of the 1991 rapists in Barcelona. They were two gipsies that talked to each other in calo during the attacks. When the victims talked to the police, they said that the rapists spoke in arabic or some other oriental language. This mislead the police to arrest two innocent Moroccans that lived in the region and had a passing resemblance to the actual criminals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 150.244.23.2 (talk) 00:20, 24 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Caló is a cant with Spanish grammar and some Romani vocabulary. I doubt that modern Gitanos speak full Romany unless they are internationalists who learnt it as adults. Especially when used as a secret language it is not to be understood by Gadjos. --Error (talk) 00:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Page moves
It's normally considered good practice to debate page moves of established pages - looking at User:Koavf and User:Kenshin. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:20, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Indeed, and this particular problem, Roma vs Romani, has been discussed many times in many places. Those that have participated to these discussions (like me) know the issue. Kenshin (talk) 10:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah ok, so the agreed formula is what, Romani people rather than Roma? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * If I may interject, 'Romani people' seems more appropriate to me in this case, but a MOS clarification at the 'Romani people' project would make things clear for all concerned. RashersTierney (talk) 22:34, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah ok, so the agreed formula is what, Romani people rather than Roma? - It depends on the context. Roma is just a subgroup of the Romani people, found in Eastern Europe. When we talk about Eastern Europe, Roma is ok, for other Romani groups we use their local name (Sinti, Romanichel, etc) or Romani as a general term. See this for a more clear info: Romani_people. Also, note that Roma is a noun, plural of Rom (so Roma people is technically incorrect in all instances), while Romani is a noun and an adjective.
 * a MOS clarification at the 'Romani people' project would make things clear for all concerned - Indeed, we talked about having a MOS, but no one seems to have the time for it, especially since an implicit terminology came out of the discussions. Kenshin (talk) 12:11, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Needs rewriting
"It is said by many gypsies that one can not fully understand or comprehend flamenco unless you have gotten drunk with the artists at these juergas at least eight-hundred times" That is not encyclopedic and should be removed. The name gypsies in Spain give to those who are not of their race is "payo" and not "gacho". The entire article should be revised and rewritten. It contains errors as well as plain junk. GS3 (talk) 01:13, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, especially without a ref that quote is... peculiar to say the least. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:33, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Slightly different point - should we move the list of people to a page like Famous Gitanos? I'm not a huge fan of such lists but they are common and handy in the sense that they keep the "people" pages clean. The list of Gitanos is getting longer than the page itself... Or perhaps even group them all under Famous Romani people. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:01, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * We already have a List of Romani people, but a list of Spanish Romani peoples it's ok, too. Kenshin (talk)
 * Ah - thanks for that, in which case I'm tempted to just move them there (those that aren't already). Akerbeltz (talk) 12:57, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Page move
The page should be move to "Gitanos", Calé or Spanish Roma. In Spain there are thousands of Roma immigrant communities from Romania, Bulgaria etc... who are to a large degree culturally and ethnically distinct from Spanish Gitanos, do not speak spanish and are simply seen as "foreigners" or eastern europeans in Spain, by Gitanos and non-Gitanos alike. It is wrong to lump them all together on racial grounds. Furthermore, Spanish Gitanos do not only live in Spain but also in surrounding countries (a well known example being the Gypsy Kings of Southern France. Gitanos are not percieved as a transnational, foreign or immigrant community but their culture and identity is deeply intrinsic to the wider Andalusian and Spanish identity. In the south particularly, the boundaries between Gitano and non-Gitano are very diffuse, particularly in the lower socioeconomic strata. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.136.223.21 (talk) 10:28, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

New Section
I have added a new section on Romani identity in Spain trying to explain its complexity. Any feedback appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.223.125 (talk) 01:31, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Changed a lot more info. A lot of mistakes and ommissions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.61.223.125 (talk) 14:48, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Quinquis
It seems the name quinquis is a derivative from "Quincalleros", those trading in low value metal objects, such as scissors, thimbles, imitation jewelry (RAE Dictionary). The most notorious member of this group recently was Eleuterio Medrano "El Lute", a bandit famous for his several successful attempts to scape from the police, then working as a criminal lawyer, he obtained a law degree while in prison. No reliable data about the ethnicity of quinquis exist, while the modern populations' genetics seems having shown for gypsies as a group roots in the indian region of Punjab, where their language would have connections too. Often their neighbours link some quinquis with people engaged in a long time and organized small crimes group, with the supposed feature of an special aggressiveness, they're perceived as dangerous. Besides a famous supposed statement in the Carlos "III" army rules: "Gitanos, murcianos, trompeteros, quincalleros y otra canalla que forma en los reales ejércitos deberán llevar un brazalete que los identifique" -Gypsies, murcians, trumpeters, quinquis and other rabbles in the royal armies should wear an armband identifying them- (Murcianos here would come from "murciar", to steal, and is not about people coming from Murcia) no special and generalized attacks existed, and the gypsies' situation has been slowly improving, for example in Zaragoza during the Francisco Franco era, a councilor was known to everybody of having a gypsy ethnical background, conflicts with communities previously stablished in Iberia would came just from a competition for scarce jobs, the gypsy newcomers getting married earlier than the native spaniards, and thus in some cases being linked by others to begging and petty crime activities to support their frequently large families. Gypsies call all the ethnic groups alien to them "Payos", have strong bonds with other people of their ethnicity, and are not very prone to inter-racial marriages.--Jgrosay (talk) 13:51, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * You might briefly let us know why you posted the above, and please bear in mind WP:NOTFORUM. RashersTierney (talk) 15:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Weddings
The bit about weddings is basically a load of bullshit. Wedding customs by gitanos in Spain are essentially the same as for the rest of the nominally Christian population and dictated mostly by the couple and their families' financial resources, not by one or both of them being gitanos.

I do not know who wrote that section but it's pure fantasy. I cannot be arsed to remove it myself, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.228.32.7 (talk) 22:25, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

Regarding a Page Move
This article is about Spanish Gypsies who identify themselves as "gitanos", forming a distinct cultural/ethnic group. They do not identify themselves as "Romani", and indeed often view themselves as distinct from Eastern European roma people (the Spanish Gypsies having formed an integral part of Andalusian culture since the reconquista).

This article should be moved to "Gitanos", "Spanish Gypsies", "Gypsies in Spain", or something similar, since romani people is neither the term used by the people in the article nor accurate as it includes anyone of roma ethnicity in Spain rather than the Spanish Gypsies as a distinct group (with hundreds of years of history in Spain). Titling this article "romani people in Spain" would be like titling an article on the Polish people "Slavic people in Poland" or on the Walloons "Gallic people in Belgium"

I'll leave this post here for a few days in case there are any objections, but failing that I'll move it.

--Tomatoswoop (talk) 04:36, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

I agree Tomatoswoop. The name you propose was the original name of the article. 88.18.162.211 (talk) 14:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I've opted for "Gitanos" rather than "Spanish Gypsies", as some English speakers consider the term "Gypsy" to be pejorative (although this is contested, and the term Roma can also be controversial for a whole host of other reasons). In any case, while it's clear that "Romani People in Spain" is not an appropriate title for this group (which rarely identifies with the term), rather than enter into a discussion as to whether "Gypsy" is an appropriate term in the context of the Spanish Gypsies, I have opted for the title Gitanos which I think should not cause controversy.  If others disagree with this choice (since it is after all a Spanish word) then I would recommend "Spanish Gypsies" or "Gypsies in Spain", as a transliteration of the group's ethnonym in Spanish, gitanos, and French gitans (which applies primarily to gypsies of Spanish Gypsy descent within France).  On the other hand, there is the article Sinti, which also uses an untranslated ethnonym, so it's not like there isn't a precedent for gitanos, and you can also find various sources online which use gitano untranslated.


 * edit: requested an administrator to move because Gitanos already had a separate article history from 2006, which was then merged into a "Roma in Spain" page which then moved here. Not sure if that history will remain visible one the page move is done.


 * --Tomatoswoop (talk) 20:58, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

Demographics
In 1978 census, the population of Roma in Spain was calculated at around 300,000 people. With an annual birth rate of 61 per 1000 and an annual death rate of 10 per 1000 and a natural annual growth rate of over 5% annual, which I am reading has actually increased in recent years. What should the population be now? I can't see it possible for it to be less than 1 million.88.18.162.211 (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

Formatting of the word "gitano"
It's bugging me that the word "gitano" is italicised, capitalised, uncapitalised seemingly indiscriminately, so we have no continuity in how we treat that word in the article. Someone advise - what's the best way to format that word? I will comb through and make it continuous from top to bottom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Possumling (talk • contribs) 11:52, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Exonyms and endonyms
The idea that gitano is an exonym and cale is an endonym is highly problematic. Most Roma in Spain identify as "gitanos" both privately and publicly and cale is a widely used term in the Spanish language to refer to them. This is easily sourceable. In fact, originally the term "cale" was likely an exonym at one point. --Cristodelosgitanos (talk) 16:45, 29 August 2021 (UTC)


 * That is purely your original research and runs contrary to what the source and etymology section o this article says. Here is a direct quote from the source:

“Romani people in Spain are generally named Gitanos. They themselves have adopted the xenonym Gitano and the ethnonym Calé. Caló means “dark” in Caló, the indigenous language of the Calé (Gitanos). Calé means “the dark ones”; Cañí is another Caló expression for “Gitano.” Having lost their original Romani language, the Gitanos tend to speak Caló, meanwhile called Romanò-kalò, their original jargon with Spanish grammar and Romani vocabulary. Over the centuries reams of words have been adopted from Caló into the Spanish vernacular. The Calé belong to the Iberian Kale Romani group with smaller populations in Portugal and southern France.” A Xenonym is a synonym of an Exonym which is any externally applied name, gitano comes from egiptano, it come from the misconception of non-roma or gachós that the Calé originated in Egypt. Just because many Calé have adopted the name doesn’t change the fact that it is an exonym. Calé is described as an Ethnonym which is the endonym of an ethnic group, Calé comes from the native language of the gitanos Caló, which is a para-Romani language. Any native speaker of a Romani or Para-Romani language like myself can tell you that Kale/Kaale/Cale/Calé means Black/Dark in our language and dates back to ancient Sanskrit. While there are hypotheses that this might have also began as an exonym given to us in Ancient India, as many Romani castes are called a variation of the name, that is only a hypothesis and it’s generally accepted that these names are endonyms since they come from our language. Unless you can find a source that states contrary, which I doubt since this is common knowledge, please don’t revert the page again, I don’t have the energy for another Flamenco situation. Cheers.TagaworShah (talk) 23:56, 30 August 2021 (UTC)


 * TagaworShah please don't use arguments of authority. I'm quite familiar with white americans adopting fanciful identities such as cherokee or romani. You are not telling me anything I don't know. In terms of etymology all these words belong to my native language. As for the history, you do make a small mistake: When Roma entered South Western Europe they identified as Egyptian Royalty - in Spain they were for a significant while treated as such and granted numerous privileges. So it was no mistake, simply a ruse. In Bulgaria numerous roma still identify as Egyptian to this day. But what you don't seem to get is that in contemporary times neither gitano is an exonym nor cale is an endonym. Both terms are used by gitanos and non-gitanos alike. Cañí is also known by all but now rarely used except in specific contexts. How these terms were used 500 or 2000 years ago is irrelevant. Hence your edits to the article are wrong, as you would know if you had ever been to Spain or met a gitano. Please do revert them yourself or at the very least add the word "historically" as a compromise. I'm not very favorable to edit wars. The Flamenco situation was of your creation. Cheers. Cristodelosgitanos (talk) 21:20, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * You have gone too far, I will be reporting this to ANI immediately. I am a proud Brown Kalderash Rom from Romania. Nowhere near a White American. Saying a Rom is lying about being Rom is the worst possible insult in my culture and it will not be take lightly. I have warned you multiple times about the personal attacks and now you have taken it too far. That was the last straw, I did not come on this website to get harassed and cyber bullied. You will be swiftly reported for all these personal attacks, I have given you so many warnings and I have never once issued any personal attacks or even mentioned anything about your personal life. If you don’t want to listen to what’s on the sources, that’s not ALLOWED, this is wiki we go by what the sources say PERIOD. The only one using arguments of authority here is you. I have many family members who immigrated to Spain and live there and I have also lived there for a period. I have never lived in the USA so I don’t know where you got that from. You have disrespected me beyond belief. My first language is Rromanes, I grew up in a Roma village, I’ve lived with all types of Roma including Calé, you obviously don’t know Rromanes since Calé is a Romani word, that’s verifiable it means dark and has sanskrit origin. Your claims that we called ourselves and still call ourselves “Egyptians” is preposterous and goes against every academic source, we know and are proud of our Indian origin. You are the one who started an edit war on the Flamenco article, I told you the Wikipedia guidelines and you refused to follow them like always. The source says what it says, if you don’t like it that’s too bad, WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT. No more Cheers you’ve gone too far.TagaworShah (talk) 22:17, 31 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Ok fine I apologize for the snarky comment.Cristodelosgitanos (talk) 22:25, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Links to disambiguation pages
This article contains over 30 links to disambiguation pages in the "Gitano surnames" section. Can you help to redirect these to specific articles? I suspect that many don't have (and may never have) surname articles and I am tempted just to remove the links if they can not be fixed.&mdash; Rod talk 12:53, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I see these have now been removed by another editor.&mdash; Rod talk 19:19, 22 December 2022 (UTC)