Talk:Gladiator (Kallark)

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 * Marvel-work-group=yes

Superboy, Mon-El, or Superman?
While Gladiator served as Superboy's LSH counterpart in the Shi'ar Imperial guard, He was modeled after Superman. Example of this can be seen by Xenith, an Supergirl counterpart who is younger than him and is his cousin. Marvel created him as an adult version of Superboy, which is Superman. To use an analogy, it is impossible for a female character to be modeled after Superman and not Supergirl. T-1000 20:55 2 February 2007 (UTC)

By that same logic, a pastiche of Legion members could never include Superman because Superman was not a member. Superboy was. CovenantD 15:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I already addressed this. Just because Gladiator served the same role as LSH's Superboy does not mean he is modeled after the character. He is adult version of Superboy, but we have a term for an "adult version of superboy", Superman. T-1000 16:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * We need to get a third opinion, because I find your logic flawed. The entire IG were created as adults; that in no way invalidates their connection to and inspiration by the teen-aged Legion of Super-Heroes. CovenantD 16:57, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You are treating the LSH Superboy as a separate character from Superman, which is incorrect. The LSH Superboy will become an adult and become Superman. Since Gladiator is already an adult, that makes him modeled after Superman. T-1000 18:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, your logic is flawed. CovenantD 19:28, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
 * a meaningless statement. T-1000 19:32, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Are they any direct statements that Gladiator is modeled after Kal-EL (be it Superman or Superboy?) I have always assumed that he was modeled after Mon-El. The colors of his costume/uniform clearly support this. While Superboy was the 'headliner' or 'best known' member of the Legion of Superheroes, it seems clear that Mon-El (himself a Superboy based character) is the model for Gladiator. Speculation: Perhaps original writer Claremont wanted Superboy, original artist Cockrum wanted Mon-El.

I included much of the disputed material in a well-cited section on "Influences." A heartfelt hat-tip/thank you to all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.92.144.119 (talk) 04:29, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Clean-Up
The text has been trimmed to a far more succinct version, with the "tell the story" aspects; assumptions and bias removed. Unfortunately the old version read like something a fan would write, and while colourful was not objective. Added some sub-headings to break up the text and included a new image, which is very clear and lacks word balloons. The old image is not suitable as the first question is: who is he talking to? Added a reference on Gladiator's weakness to radiation, and will source a few more so that some of those statements can be supported.

Asgardian 02:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

CovenantD's revert is pointless as it allows for dead links, assumptions, bias and verbose text in general. Not appropriate and done without thinking.

Asgardian 03:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thre is no assumption and bias in the article. All of Gladiator's abilties are documented in scans in the respect Gladiator link, the comic scans are a reliable source. Also, your new image cannot be used, it is from the Offical Marvel Handbook and thus a violation of copyright. T-1000 06:03, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

See all my comments above. The Powers and Abilities section is a mass of wild and unsupported claims. Everything much be sourced. As for the image, it can be replaced, but NOT with something with a caption and dialogue to someone off panel. That creates just more questions.

Asgardian 06:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * They are sourced, that's why the respect Gladiator link is there, read it and look at the Scans. T-1000 06:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * You need cited references, not often subjective scans, which clutter the entry anyway. By the by, CovenantD is right - a message board is NOT a reliable source as EVERYTHING is opinion. The new version of the entry is more objective and reads less like a fan's page.

Asgardian 06:49, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Scans from Comics are not opinion because everything is directly from the writer and the artists. The captions backup what the article saids. T-1000 06:52, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * References now added to the page. T-1000 07:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Your statements are self-contridictory. First you dismiss opinions as not valid. You then used your own opinion without valid reasoning to remove large amount of text. The only reason to remove the materials are the lack of references, a problem which is just fixed. The article is not marked as long, and there are far longer article than this one. Removing large amounts of text based on your opinion are considered vandalism. T-1000 08:45, 21

October 2006 (UTC)

Not really. The entry is verbose in that it is overly wordy and has far too much of a "tell the story" aspect to it. All the information is still in the new version - simply in a more succinct form. A few things have also been added. Once again, the entry cannot look like it was written for a fan site, which it currently does. A link to a message board only confirms this.

Asgardian 09:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
 * We do need a few examples of Gladiator using his powers, and your image is still not properly sourced. I will not revert, rewrite some parts of it. Use of semi-colons now corrected. Speech removed from SHB pic. T-1000 20:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

succinct
As dozens of people (dozens? Who? Anyway, I wrote most of that article and it stuck) has told you on the Thor page, "succinct" is not a reason to omit accurate info (on the contrary, succinctness is a must. The entries are not fan sites. All the information - plus some omitted extras - are still there. Read it.) Image is not properly sourced. There is no such image in the link. T-1000 01:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC) (Fixed. Much better than the image with empty word balloons).

Asgardian 02:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)


 * First of all, don't insert your remarks into my posts, as people have already told you. Second, the succinct posts are on the midway of the Thor talk page. Third, according to Wikipedia Guidelines, this article is not overly long, if you disregard guidelines, you will be blocked. Fourth, what is "succint" or not is your independent analysis, Original research, is not allowed here. Fifth, your image does not allow a good look at Gladiator's custome, which is one of the requirements for a main image. T-1000 02:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

As CovenantD has stated, your logic is flawed. There is a great deal of POV and idolising happening here. Again, this is not a fan site. Your version has a choppy image, dead links and meanders considerably, not to mention all the irrelevant and aforementioned assumptions in the end sections. Other characters do not have such lengthy passages devoted to such similarities. It smacks of fan worship. Sorry, revert.

Asgardian 02:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * First off, your first statement is a red herring, that is a completely different discussion. Second, What you think does not matter, you must follow standards. if everybody can omit large amounts of content based on what they think as "succinct" then Wikipedia would be in chaos. The article is less than 30 kb long, and does not have a length problem. What you think as "fan-like" or not is irrlevant and OR, which is not allowed here. As I said before, you must follow standards and guildlines. I assume good faith, but if you insist on edit warring, you will get yourself blocked. T-1000 03:45, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Also, your new image is still not properly sourced, there is no such image at the forum. T-1000 03:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

The paragragh in question
As the Shi'ar Imperial Guard are based on the Legion of Super-Heroes, Gladiator is an analogue of Superboy and Superman, having a number of similar powers. He has a cousin (Xenith), who is a Supergirl analogue. He has one special weakness (an unknown form of radiation), which mirrors Superman's weakness to kryptonite. His costume also shares a similar theme with Superman. Another similarity is that, Gladiator's race is Strontian, which is based off the element Strontium, just like Superman's Kryptonian race is named off the element Krypton. The codename "Gladiator" a reference to the 1930 Philip Gordon Wylie novel--Gladiator--which is thought to have served as one of the inspirations for the creators of Superman. Gladiator's real name, Kallark, is also a pastiche of superman’s Kryptonian name Kal-El and his earth name Clark Kent.

Setence by setence:

1. As the Shi'ar Imperial Guard are based on the Legion of Super-Heroes, Gladiator is an analogue of Superboy and Superman, having a number of similar powers.
 * This is a [b]fact[/b]. Dave Cockrum (artist) was working on Legion of Superheroes when he switch over to working on X-men.

And quite appropriate for the Imperial Guard page!

2. He has a cousin (Xenith), who is a Supergirl analogue.
 * This is also a fact. He does have a cousin.

'''Fine, but a mention of a relative in the SHB is all that is needed. The entry is not about family members.'''

3. He has one special weakness (an unknown form of radiation), which mirrors Superman's weakness to kryptonite. Or Mon-El's weakness to lead.
 * This is a fact backed up by Hulk Annual 1997.

'''And cited in the references. No problem there.'''

4. His costume also shares a similar theme with Superman, but moreso Mon-El (created with colors reversed of Superboy).
 * This is a fact. Both customes are composed of Red, Blue, and Gold.

'''True, but not relevant. Skrulls are green like the Hulk, as is Gamora. Are they mentioned in the Hulk's entry?'''

5. Another similarity is that, Gladiator's race is Strontian, which is based off the element Strontium, just like Superman's Kryptonian race is named off the element Krypton.
 * This is a fact. Krypon is based on the element Krypton, and stronian is based upon the character strontium.

'''Gladiator might be Strontian, but Superman's origin is irrelevant here as the entry is not about Superman. There is also no reference.'''

6. The codename "Gladiator" a reference to the 1930 Philip Gordon Wylie novel--Gladiator--which is thought to have served as one of the inspirations for the creators of Superman.

Superman, not Gladiator, and the "is thought" part of the sentence means it is not a fact.


 * This is a fact. The novel and the codename, and the influence on Superman are verifiable.

'''Superman, not Gladiator. See above.'''

7. Gladiator's real name, Kallark, is also a pastiche of superman’s Kryptonian name Kal-El and his earth name Clark Kent.
 * This is a fact. KAL + Clark = Kallark.

Mentioned in Trivia.

As you can see, there is no idolizing or Point of view in the paragraph at all. T-1000 04:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

'''Actually, there is quite a great deal of unsubstantiated POV. Why not now help with the references for the main text? It must all be sourced.'''

I included much of the disputed material in a well-cited section on "Influences." A heartfelt hat-tip/thank you to all. T-1000 will note that much of his language reappears. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.92.144.119 (talk) 04:31, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Also
The red links are not "dead links", they are places for people to start articles. This is normal. T-1000 17:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

source
The article referencing Gladiator's influences on Superman is here:

Response

 * First off, don't insert your points underneath mine, and don't use the bold font. You admitted that the Paragraph contain facts. You must recongize what you are doing wrong. Removing facts from an article based on an editor personal opinion is a violation of non-NPOV policy. you must follow the policies. Also, an image containing two character cannot be used as the main image, per image guideline. Not everyone can tell the difference between Thor and Gladiator. From WP:OR, "Original research excludes editors' personal views; political opinions; and any personal analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position the editor may hold." You cannot remove facts because of your personal views. Another thing, use of heading 2 is against formatting standards. T-1000 04:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Now, the main points:

And quite appropriate for the Imperial Guard page!


 * You are still removing facts based on your opinion. Violation of non-NPOV and is WP:OR.

'''Fine, but a mention of a relative in the SHB is all that is needed. The entry is not about family members.'''


 * The SHB does not mention relatives, it was disabled a long time ago

'''True, but not relevant. Skrulls are green like the Hulk, as is Gamora. Are they mentioned in the Hulk's entry?'''


 * because Gladiator's creators intentionally made him to resemble Superman, while the Skrull/Hulk is a coincidences.

'''Gladiator might be Strontian, but Superman's origin is irrelevant here as the entry is not about Superman. There is also no reference.'''


 * The fact that the race of Gladiator and Superman is named after a element is a similarity between Superman and Gladiator, which is the point of the section.

Superman, not Gladiator, and the "is thought" part of the sentence means it is not a fact.


 * Read the link.

'''Superman, not Gladiator. See above.'''


 * The relationship of the codename Gladiator and Superman is a fact. Hugo Danner sharing the same name as Kallark is also a fact.

Mentioned in Trivia.


 * Per the disscusion at WP:TRIVIA and Superman, trivia sections should be removed.

'''Actually, there is quite a great deal of unsubstantiated POV. Why not now help with the references for the main text? It must all be sourced.'''
 * The reasons for your edits are the only POV thing here. T-1000 05:07, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

You cannot even see that the image is not appropriate for use and why? Are there any other characters that have blotted out word balloons coming out of their mouths?

Asgardian 09:25, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You failed to address any of my points above. You are removing facts because of your opinion. The image guideline does not say anything about talk ballons. However, Images with two character cannot be used as the main image. Not everybody can tell the difference between Gladiator and Thor. Word ballons are fine, other character use them also (Graydon Creed). All we need is a full frontal profile. You must follow standards, otherwise you will be blocked.T-1000 18:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

It's Thor's title - there's a letterbox image of him in the top left hand corner AND another image of Gladiator further down the page. Also, blank word balloons? Old version still cluttered and POV. Take the Legion info to the Imperial Guard page.

Asgardian 21:46, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

What you COULD do if you really like that image is to use Photoshop and blank out the background. A little bigger, and it's there.

Asgardian 00:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Main image
Regarding the controversy over which image to use as the main image for the article, neither image seems ideal. The solo image has those pesky word balloons and is from a slighty unusual perspective. The Thor cover, though exciting, doesn't unambiguously show the subject. Does anyone have another image? --GentlemanGhost 08:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no such animal. There is a third image I initially used but it is a flying shot. Still, either would be preferable to the image with word balloons. Gah. By the by, - 75.176.37.208 - please try not to make blind reverts that run contrary to the article. Everything I said in the Edit History holds true.

Asgardian 02:50, 23 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thor vol. 2, #34 would have been perfect but for the fact that Gladiator is partially in shadow. There may be an X-Men image that can be used.

Asgardian 22:40, 27 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Found one. Rom Annual #4 offers a very good frontal shot of Gladiator. A superior image to the awful cut and paste shot that CovenantD was blindly reverting to.

Asgardian 01:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

From the Comics Project guidelines - "Pictures which have more characters and/or objects than the subject of the article should only be used if the subject is the most prominent object." Both the Rom and the Thor cover fail this miserably. CovenantD 01:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Another tactless and inappropriate comment. Par for the course it seems. We'll have an image rather no image, thank you. The majority - not just you - can decide from there.

Asgardian 02:48, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Juggernaut bitch
He was in the internet movie right? I think at the end... --208.186.134.103 06:03, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Superman/Gladiator
Is there actually any evidence that plainly and clearly states that the character is intended to be a Marvel version of Superman or is it a case of personal interpretation on the parts of some editors? They do share some of the same abilities, but that alone isn't enough to declare as proof is it? After all, many of their powers, particularly their physical abilities, are among the most common superhuman powers used for comic book characters. A source placed for the statement in the trivia section stated that, since Gladiator is vulnerable to certain types of radiation and Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite, Gladiator is a Marvel version of Superman. Again, this seems too broad. Am I wrong in this or what?Odin&#39;s Beard 01:28, 8 February 2007 (UTC)


 * He's really modelled on Captain Planet. 67.71.143.95 22:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)


 * He's in a group that was created as an homage to the Legion of Superheroes, he has a cousin who shares his powers and his real name is a combination of "Kal" and "Clark". It seems fairly obvious to me. (Although there's also a case to be made for Mon-El.) Having said that, I know that if there's not a citation, it can't go in the article. Daibhid C (talk) 17:02, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Cannonball
Would it be worth it to mention Gladiator's defeat at the hands of Cannonball?

And why did the two guys fight it out anyway?

Lots42 00:56, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Sure, there's no reason not to. Gladiator doesn't really have all that many apperances and it's just another bit of information. It happened in a comic book that's part of mainstream Marvel continuity, so why not.Odin&#39;s Beard 15:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Naming ...
I appreciate the separation between the 2 Marvel Gladiators; however, the use of the seldom used surname of the character, made the recognition of the character difficult for me. Perhaps a change to Gladiator (Imperial Guard), a return to Gladiator (Shiar) or (cosmic) something along those lines. I know that this is a goes against general guidlines for multi-named characters; however, the "secret identity" of this character rarely utilized, and such would be easier identified with another moniker. - 66.109.248.114 (talk) 04:21, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

thanos series
am i right in thinking that  Gladiator appeared in the Ongoing series of  Thanos.... i seem to remeber he was for some reaosn on a prison planet  but had to fight a cosmic enterty. my memory is sketchy.--82.13.194.239 (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

You're definitely right. He was referred to a "Shi'ar" and was later explicitly called "Gladiator" by one of the inmates. No to mention his hair and skin color are a giveaway. He was in Thanos #8 to #12. I'm still reading the rest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.199.69.24 (talk) 16:50, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:FF-249.jpg
Image:FF-249.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Symbol?
What does that symbol on his costume mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gimodon (talk • contribs) 00:59, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

C-Class rated for Comics Project
As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit WikiProject_Comics/Assessment and list the article. Hiding T 14:09, 23 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of reassessing it myself. The backlog on the very meager list of reassessment requests is quite embarrassing, so I joined the team myself and did the reassessment. Homoaffectional (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Kallark
Moved the note on his name (and expanded it) to a trivia section. Yes, I know trivia sections are frowned upon. Perhaps someone with more documentation could expand this into a "behind the scenes" section on the real world origin of the Imperial Guard. I know I've seen it covered in interviews with Dave Cockrum, just not sure where to find them.Khajidha (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Self-confidence/ Powers
According to recent canon history and Marvel.com's own profile for the character [], Gladiator's powers are now explicitly tied to his self-confidence, so I think it's worth noting that under 'powers'. In addition, I think the Cannonball episode is worth noting (briefly obviously) as an extreme example of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Totallyprocrastinating (talk • contribs) 20:00, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

Other Versions
I don't see why his small part in the storyline of Marvel Zombies should not be included to the end. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Octave Parango (talk • contribs) 20:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Link Error?
The hypertext for Cosmic Ghost Rider links to a section of The Punisher's wiki page instead of the main Cosmic Ghost Rider page. 69.115.48.195 (talk) 13:17, 13 August 2023 (UTC)