Talk:Glam metal/Archive 2

Question on image of Twisted Sister
Although they had hair and make-up, they were definitely closer in style to Kiss and Quiet Riot than to Poison and Cinderella. Any objections to getting a picture of someone who represents the genre better? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.118.47 (talk) 15:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the representing image should be of Motley Crue or Poison, but I think that maybe there should be an image for each important section, at least for the first and the second wave. Other articles do have more than one image. FateForger (talk) 15:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Twisted Sister, though had the image, did not have the mentality. I recall from a VH1 documentary where Dee Snider trashed power ballads, etc. Ballads were a key part to glam metal in my opinion and thus a better representative image should be selected. Poison comes to mind as the ultimate glam metal band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.203.230 (talk) 03:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

i think Twisted Sister were classic metal and glam-inspired hard rock, because the band was well known in the 1970's ,which influenced glam-metal sound of the 1980'sVal hallen (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:21, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Decline section on "power ballads" contradictory
The part where it says that power ballad was seen as a now unpopular cliche, yet mentions Aerosmith's success with Cryin and Ozzy Osbourne having success with numerous ones on No More Tears, is highly contradictory. That section needs some editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherryberryvery (talk • contribs) 11:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

"Butt Rock"?
Should this even be on the page? Thats more like a derogatory term from the urban dictionary, similar to "Emo Fag" or something. Anyone have a problem with removing this statement? I've also heard Butt Rock used for newer bands like nickle back, creed and such. 72.177.206.211 (talk) 22:01, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd like to see a reference to the term. It was fairly commonly used in the 80s and 90s. Surv1v4l1st (Talk 01:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

First vawe of glam metal
Bon Jovi had their first album and success in 1983 with the eponymous album, if Stryper is in the section, Bon Jovi, and also Def Leppard should be in the section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.92.103 (talk) 18:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

glam metal is very different from hair metal, blues metal , sleaze rock and classic metal although can be associated with each other ;classic metal is of the 1970's whereas glam metal , hair metal , blues metal and sleaze rock are of the 1980's and might have been influenced by initial genres like classic metal and blues rock —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:32, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

hair metal is a more serious and extreme form of glam metal as it does not include fun and exitement in its lyrics or sound ,perfect example of a hair metal song which i have heard would be Ninja by Europe, the guitar solo of this song  says it allVal hallen (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:37, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

glam metal is all about the style of guitar solo and nothing to do with how the band looks or dresses.Val hallen (talk) 16:18, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:41, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Finally someone who can point to technical aspects of the music itself rather than fingerpointing about hair. Can you elaborate? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.94.128.10 (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Def Leppard
should probably be in the first wave group....unless we want to consider their first albums not part of the movement. High N Dry was 1981, Pyro in 1983. That's pretty much the first wave. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.235.146.124 (talk) 13:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree that Def Leppard shoul be at least partially included, because some of their albums, though not being stictly glam metal, have a great influnce from the genre. However, this is controversial and starting an editing fight is not recommended. I think the issue should be properly discussed.FateForger (talk) 15:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Def Leppard were never a glam-metal band in terms of sound and looks also, but are glam-rock ;previously it was mentioned as glam rock why now and suddenly it should be considered as glam metal? whats the big deal? why are people so much into Def Leppard ,their songs all sound similar to each other and don't have a distinct characteristic or sound and the band have never really been an inspiration to today's Metal bandsVal hallen (talk) 16:16, 4 July 2010 (UTC). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:03, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Big POV issue...
This article has two occurence of "I * think"... It raise a lot of concern: if it's the point of view of one of the writer, it has to be removed or neutralized. Also this sounds like original research, which is prohibited on WP... 193.253.211.55 (talk) 09:07, 14 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I can see minor issues but nothing too horrid. Can you point out specific passages and explain what is wrong with them. Fair Deal (talk) 10:30, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The entire article is a POV nightmare. Attempts at hyperaccurate classification of music create more problems than they solve. The term "glam metal" is arbitrary. Perspectives change with time. Bands that would have been considered "heavy metal" in 1980 are called "glam" thirty years after the fact. Def Leppard may not be as heavy as Danzig or Metallica, but they weren't contemporaries until much later. There are so many problems it is hardly worth discussing, but worst of all why would you classify music by the way the artist combs his/her/their hair? OMG Bruce Dickinson cut his hair, so I guess Maiden isn't metal any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ooze2b (talk • contribs) 19:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Def Leppard, Bon Jovi, Skid Row?
This article is missing Bon Jovi, Def Leppard, and Skid Row. --72.70.5.35 (talk) 15:20, 30 May 2009 (UTC) :None of them are glam metal. GripTheHusk (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2009 (UTC) Striking socks Rockgenre (talk) 20:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

For Def Leppard see above, the others are now fixed.FateForger (talk) 15:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Info box
This page had an info box section at one time, but now it's gone. I think it should likely have one, as it's a big enough movement to have an info box. I just didn't want to go ahead and make one in fear of there being a good reason there isn't one. Ximmerman (talk) 17:08, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the reason was because it was a genre box and having it was misleading for an article about a term. Other terms related to music such as New Wave of British Heavy Metal, British Invasion and Arena Rock do not have that box for the same reason. Wether B (talk) 22:38, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I've always been under the impression that glam metal in fact was a genre, simply a metal counter part to glam rock. But, I guess this isn't the case then :/.Ximmerman (talk) 18:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Uhm, but Glam Metal is a genre... It isnt a movment it is a genre.. Why doesent it have a box? 173.65.129.200 (talk) 19:39, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
 * What's the difference between a genre and a movement -- and how many people can you get ot agree with you? This is all opinion, and therefore POV.```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ooze2b (talk • contribs) 19:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Sleaze Rock
There needs to be information on the next generation of glam metal called sleaze rock. Most of the bands are coming out of Sweden. The bands include Vains of Jenna, Crashdiet, Loud n Nasty, Snake Of Eden, and Baby Jane. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.117.220.171 (talk) 18:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree, sleaze rock bands are direct decedents of glam metal and deserve a mention at the very least. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.203.230 (talk) 03:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

sleaze rock is very different from glam metal although can be associated with it.Guns N Roses is a perfect example of a sleaze rock band, whose guitar solos haven't perfected in the glam metal soundVal hallen (talk) 16:15, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 14:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Tone and neutrality tag cleanup
The article had been tagged for a long time for issues that had been, for the most part, cleaned up. The refimprove tag remains as this page, like most others, could always use more. The term 'glam metal' is related to fashion and has very little to do with music. An appropriate fashion category should be found for it. Something to tie it into the 'trend' timeline as well. The Real Libs-speak politely 12:22, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I disagree, it is most certainly a genre. Glam metal is one of the few things I can listen to and recognize it instantly. To claim that it isn't a genre at all is preposterous. Zazaban (talk) 22:29, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree it is a genre and I have not seen anything to say otherwise, but I do agree those tags need to be fixed. 173.65.129.200 (talk) 04:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think Libs is right. Its a fashion. But the music played by any 'supposed' glam metal band is either just hard rock or heavy metal. If a listener heard music from an act labelled as glam metal on the radio but had no idea what the act looked like, the listened would never tag it as glam metal, it would be tagged by whatever appropriate style fit the music. The term "glam metal" can describe a look but it doesn't describe any music. Wether B (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2009 (UTC) Striking socks Rockgenre (talk) 21:07, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, I've always found the style very distinctive, I have no idea what music you're listening to. I can most certain use it to refer to a style of music. Though all of this on both sides of the argument is OR anyway. Zazaban (talk) 21:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

We may need a separate page for Pop-metal.
I believe there is a distinct difference between hair metal and pop-metal. I think that every hair band is a pop metal band, but not every pop metal band is a hair metal band. Take Def Leppard for example. Not a hair metal band they were part of the NWoBHM, but thier sound was pop metal. Can I write up a quick page for the subgenre? Rockgenre (talk) 19:47, 13 September 2009 (UTC) :The terms hair metal and pop metal all re-direct here because they all mean the same thing. And none of them are actual disctinct musical genres so no sub-section is really needed. Def Leppard doesn't play pop-metal. They play hard rock and heavy metal. And when they lighten their sound it is just rock. Not pop metal or any other non-existent musical style. Just rock. GripTheHusk (talk) 19:52, 13 September 2009 (UTC) Striking socks Rockgenre (talk) 20:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
 * No there is a difference. Sure DL's early stuff was as heavy as any Iron Maiden album, but thier later sound(Pyromania, Hysteria, etc.) were pure pop metal(not hair metal). And why was the Ted Nugent thing removed? Rockgenre (talk) 20:15, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

pop metal is also nothing like glam metal although can be associated with it.The theme songs of the cartoon series Swat Kats and reality series Video Zonkers sound more like pop metal,i have never heard a pop-metal song by any band, as it is not considered as proper musicVal hallen (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 15:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Glitter Rock
I know I am being a bit "testy" but the use of the terms "glam rock" for the rock of the 70s from which glam rock was born isn't quite correct. It was referred to as "glitter rock" and I always get frustrated when the terms are used interchangeably. Glitter Rock = 70s (Bowie, Elton John, Sweet, T Rex, New York Dolls, Gary Glitter) Glam Rock = 80s  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.11.122.77 (talk) 13:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe in America (the New York scene, mainly), but pretty much everywhere else it was glam rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalion SOS (talk • contribs) 05:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


 * 70s equals glam rock, or glitter rock. 80s equals glam metal, which is not the same thing.  Poison were most definitely not glam rock, but they were glam metal.  MrBook (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Typical Instruments
In the "Typical Instruments" section, I noticed that piano and keyboard were both listed there. I somewhat accept keyboard, though I am not familiar with any glam metal bands utilizing keyboards and would like to see some evidence, but I am sure that a piano has never been used in a glam metal song, and it is definitely not typical for the genre. I believe it would be best to discuss the changing or removal of these two items Catrolean (talk) 23:37, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Jump by Van Halen, Home Sweet Home by Motely Crue, Runaway by Bon Jovi all use keyboards and/or piano. Bon Jovi use keyboards/piano a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.159.72 (talk) 05:40, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Cock rock?
Cock rock refers to this page, but it's not even mentioned. Shouldn't it be discussed at least briefly if the term refers to it, or the referral removed?130.161.248.229 (talk) 15:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Cock Rock is another name for glam metal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.28.95 (talk) 00:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Dude alot of thrash metal fans called it cock rock lol. --76.113.62.128 (talk) 19:55, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Van Halen as a member of the first wave?
While they may have been influential to this genre, I doubt Van Halen was ever really glam metal. (Albert Mond (talk) 06:47, 13 December 2009 (UTC))

i dont think Van Halen is glam metal at all. they sound sound sort of like a glam rock band like Aerosmith and Def Leppard ,who neither have perfected in the glam metal soundVal hallen (talk) 16:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 14:52, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

I think I heard in a VH1 documentary that Van Halen was called teeth metal because they were always smiling and that was in the days before "hair metal" so I am sort of inclined to agree. That said, Van Halen is BASICALLY hair metal. I mean, their whole image and existence is hair metal. David Lee Roth went on to make Yankee Rose, a true hair metal track. I'm comfortable in calling them hair metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.9.159.72 (talk) 05:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Pantera
Pantera should be on here. They use to be glam metal. Just to prove to you when i add it in that its not original search heres the link. you may delete it if you want though. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantera --76.113.62.128 (talk) 20:00, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

You are definitely right. I think they should be added making it clear though that their glam metal period is not what they are famous for and explaining how they shifted towards groove metal.FateForger (talk) 21:37, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Real glam metal
i really think glam metal evolved in the mid 1980's and was influenced by classic metal which was predominant in the 1970's with bands like Alice Cooper,Quiet Riot,Twisted Sister and Motley Crue which have classic metal and glam-inspired hard rock sound which later influenced 1980's bands like Bon Jovi,Poison,White Lion,Europe,Tesla and Cinderella to perfect that sound to glam-metal which has more of fun and exitement shown in lyrics and sound .i don't think that KISS is glam metal or classic metal but glam-inspired hard rock the band hasn't perfected in the metal sound. metal sound is when the guitar solos particularly are long and sound like as if the guitars are screaming ,like in blues-rock which have stretchy and long guitar solos ,and have probably been an inspiration to the metal soundVal hallen (talk) 16:11, 4 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 14:40, 4 July 2010 (UTC) --Val hallen (talk) 16:33, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

there should be a separate article on Blues Metal
why is blues metal being redirected to blues rock, rock music and metal music have their differences. blues metal is associated with glam metal, as all the well known and real glam metal bands like Poison,White Lion ,Europe ,Tesla, Cinderella have glam metal as well as blues metal style in their songs,particularly in their ballads which show a bluesy kind of style in their guitar solo not fun and exitement as in glam metalVal hallen (talk) 16:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Val hallen (talk • contribs) 16:05, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you have any reliable sources for all this? In the end on Wikipedia, what we think is not as important as what can be demonstrated.-- SabreBD  (talk)  16:35, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

what kind of reliable sources do you want? haven't you heard any of the songs by these bands, what kind of a fan are you of music and musicians.By the way what kind of a reliable source do you have for "New Wave Of British Heavy Metal" is it even a musical genre or what way is it different from American metal ,Swedish metal, German Metal , or just heavy metal.Val hallen (talk) 16:45, 4 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Click on this link to find out about reliable sources on Wikipedia: HERE.-- SabreBD  (talk)  17:14, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

ok thanks for helping me outVal hallen (talk) 14:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Clean up
I am proposing to clean up the article, bearing in mind the valid points made above, correcting any obvious errors, finding sources for any unsourced material where possible and removing anything that cannot be sourced (which shouldn't be much here). It may also necessitate some reorganising of the sub-headings depending on how the balance of different periods seems. Having just undertaken the same process for Hard rock, I will also bring any relevant material from there into this article, so this will probably be an expansion as well. Its quite a large task so will probably take some time. If there are any points that editors want taken into consideration, now is a good time to post them.-- SabreBD  (talk)  18:33, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I fully support your proposal. Which points in particular are you considering to change? I believe the first wave section should be expanded with more info and details. FateForger (talk) 21:28, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Not really planning to change very much at this time, but I totally agree that the first wave section does need some expansion, I will see what I can find.-- SabreBD  (talk)  21:49, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This now done. Have done my best to expand the first wave section and have added some pictures.-- SabreBD  (talk)  00:24, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * And this is what I call a great job. The article looks much better now, and it richer in information too. FateForger (talk) 11:09, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I did my best to preserve what could be preserved and it turned out to be almost everything. I also traced bands back and forth, so that readers can find their start, peak, dissolution and (in many cases) reformation. Even though it is much expanded, I think there is still more we can add to the first wave sub-section, but my sources petered out. I will try to get back to this sometime in the future. I also removed some acts from the origins section, either because the sources didn't pan out of because every hard rock act before 1980 is credited with being an influence in articles specifically about them. In my opinion (and it is just that) it is better to look at sources about glam rock and see what they say were the major influences. Hopefully we can maintain this as a fully sourced article and move on from here.-- SabreBD  (talk)  12:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sure the article will keep improving, and I agree with all the things you have changed. I appreciate the extra images you have added too, but wouldn't it be better (even if I know it is difficult to find free ones) to use images of the time? In this article we need images showing how acts were in those years, and not recent ones (except for the reunion sub-section). What do you think about it? FateForger (talk) 15:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I totally agree about the images, much better to have images from the time, especially when the look of a band is so important in the genre, but, as you indicate, the problem is copyright and contemporaneous images tend not to be free use. It is however possible for editors to provide free use rationale's of offical photographs, its just a painful process.-- SabreBD  (talk)  15:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Guns n roses are not hair metal
Firstly can I say that gnr are in no way hair metal, listen to the Use your Illusion albums for gods sake! Does November rain sound like hair metal? Secondly it is stated that Chinese democracy their latest album (which is also about as much hair metal as hip hop) was a failure. It sold over 5 million worldwide and went platinum in more than 10 countries, just because it flopped in the US doesn't mean it was a failure, consult the gnr and Chinese democracy pages for these truths —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.237.136.167 (talk) 20:32, 5 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Reliable sources indicate that Guns n' Roses are hair metal, although a rawer and gritter form, as the article indicates. Frankly, since you ask, "Novemeber Rain" does sound much more like hair metal than say thrash metal, but what we think is much less important than what the sources indicate. On the second point, please take note of the phrasing which does not say it was a failure, but that but that it failed to live up to previous success, which is true as it only went platinum in the US, whereas G N' R Lies went x5, Use Your Illusion I and II, both went x7. Sales in the rest of the world tend to be less significant, but if you have some reliable evidence of much very high sales elsewhere that reverse this situation then do post it here, so that it can be considered.-- SabreBD  (talk)  21:01, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sources reporting of sales are verifiable facts. Sources reporting someone's classification of a band is opinion shopping. Were the Beatles Hair Pop? Is 'Grunge' just another name for 'Dirty Hair Metal?' "Sources" classifying music are frauds engaging in namecalling. Kierkegaard suggests we label to negate others. Metallica (cut their hair in 91 - hair metal?) just dubs them unforgiven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.94.128.10 (talk) 00:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

i have to agree with the first guy, many other reliable sources would say they arent hair metal, they are more hard rock and occasionally speed metal 90.199.157.105 (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2010 (UTC)


 * You could definitely find sources to call Guns n Roses hair metal, but they would be ignorant sources. They were about as much hair metal as the Rolling Stones.  MrBook (talk) 20:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

^ with your logic, L.A. Guns, Faster Pussycat, early Mötley Crüe, etc, are not Glam Metal bands (since they didn't sound exactly like Poison, Bon Jovi, etc). The genre is diverse, and Guns N' Rose was part of the genre. The genre had a longer life in the maisntream thanks to Guns N' Roses. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:01, 28 February 2011 (UTC).

It is clear there is a grey area with Guns n Roses ,there are sources that do cite them as not being Pop/Glam Metal there are that do,Guns was not exactly Bon Jovi or Poison but there is no doubt they used the same formula that other Pop Metal bands were using in general they came out of that very same L.A scene which was ground zero for the whole Pop Metal thing,as mentioned further up this post they were just a bit more gritter musically in general and never took fully to the girly look, though in the late 80's some Glam metal bands who became known during the early and mid 80's were moving away from that super Glam look( like Motley Crue for example compare their look from shout at the Devil(84) and Theater Of Pain(85) than see the slow regression from those looks  Girls girls(87) and Dr Feelgood(89))by the late 80's.I think because this will be an issue that will be brought up many times that it is settled by consensus not source vs source and since it is already in the article  about them being Glam metal it would have to be overturned by consensus to remove them as being glam metal,my opinion would be to keep them in the article as a Glam metal band and the way it is mentioned  is done properly(imo) because Guns is not exactly the poster child for a glam metal band either P.S good job who ever been working heavily on this article it is a thousand times improved over what it was previously--Wikiscribe (talk) 17:24, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

I think Guns n Roses cannot be simple lobbed in with a genre, they stood pretty much on their own due to their superior musicianship and singwriting. Their early look could be called similar to hair metal, largely due to them being fans of Hanoi Rocks. Their sound is also much more versatile than lets say Motley Crue. And perhaps the most strong argument: the height of their popularity was partly what caused the downfall of hair metal. Furthermore, their decline was not caused by a lack of interest from fans due to the rise of Grunge (The Use your Illusions were released one week before Nevermind, with both artists selling millions), but due to internal strife between Axl Rose and the rest of the band. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.110.8 (talk) 23:43, 21 April 2012 (UTC)

Terminology
We now have a terminology section again with reliable sources, although it still has a couple missing that I have templated. I am not sure about the emphasis on the Headbandger's journey familiy tree, it is really just one person's view: evidence, but despite its claims, really not definitive. The picture is also a bit problematic as I cannot actually read it as it is, and to make it fit the article is really needs to be smaller. I will have a look around for other sources when I have time and check whether the distinctions are quite this clear. There are also a few other jobs to fix over overlinking and the format of citations, which need to fit in with the article, but lets sort of the issues before dealing with those.-- SabreBD  (talk)  17:34, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Women In Glam Metal Section Needed
An article or history on glam metal isn't complete unless you mention many of the women in that music scene.

It would be nice to see a section on women in glam metal. Many female bands and artists had considerable impact in that genre and are just as important to note. Some bands/artists and female fronted acts include:

Lita Ford, Girlschool (UK), Vixen, Precious Metal, Poison Dollys, Phantom Blue, Lee Aaron, Warlock, Headpins, Femme Fatale, Saraya, Smashed Gladys, Rock Goddess (UK), Girlie (Dutch), Hellion, Madam X, Black Lace, Leather Angel, Shakin' Street (France), Jaded Lady, Wendy O. Williams (not sure if we can classify her as glam metal), Ice Age (UK), Jezebelle (UK), ect.

Some other bands like Heart (Heart & Bad Animals albums) and The Pandoras (Rock Hard & Live! Nymphomania EPs) also went through a pop-metal phase in the 1980s. Though it could be argued that it was more "pop" than "metal."

For each wave of glam, there are corresponding female bands and artists which should be added to make the glam metal article more accurate and thorough.

Recently, The Donnas, much like Buckcherry and Steel Panther revived glam metal with their last studio album "Bitchin'," in addition to the band Vision from Sweden. There are quite a few all-female tribute bands to many of the all-male glam metal bands too.

http://www.metaladies.com/ and http://www.metalmaidens.com/ are great resources to begin with.

Mizz-X (talk) 22:39, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Oh, and thanks! :) Mizz-X (talk) 22:57, 4 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Its an interesting point. I think women are rather under-represented in the article, but I am not sure if a separate section is the best way to go. Perhaps we should feed them into the text and then have a section with the gender issues. Something I would like to consider for a bit and see what other editors think.-- SabreBD  (talk)  23:44, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Glam metal sources
How can this be? Over 80 sources for the article, yet only a SINGLE one for the term itself and an introduction referring to the term as 'often used' ??? well how about some more 'Glam metal ' sources? This is hilarious. Hoffmansk 21:51, 8 May 2011 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hoffmansk (talk • contribs)

Beavis and Butt-Head
I find it strange how the article didn't discuss the major role "Beavis and Butt-head" played in the decline in popularity of glam/hair metal in the '90s. On that show the two characters would frequently disparage the videos of those type of bands, which had a heavy influence upon public opinion. (Likewise, B&B also launched several artists into superstardom.). I could be wrong, but I think B&B did more to bring down hair metal than Nirvana did.

I think that's worth mentioning in the article.

(Mongolmax (talk) 12:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC))


 * Do you have any reliable sources for that?-- SabreBD  (talk)  12:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Blues Rock and NWOBHM
I would think that Blues Rock and NWOBHM influenced Glam/Hair/Pop Metal. For one, on the Aerosmith Page it mentions that they were Blues Rock and important bands from the genre like Mötley Crüe and RATT list Aerosmith as an influence. Mick Mars, the lead guitarist for Mötley Crüe playe in blues bands and I would think that he brought that influence with him. Also, the members of RATT listed NWOBHM acts such as Judas Priest and Iron Maiden as Influence. And the Bassist (and main Writer) of Mötley Crüe, Nikki Sixx on his Radio Show Sixx Sense, he claimed that Judas Priest was an influence. I may have only mentioned two bands, but they were some of the biggest glam acts and their Blues Rock influence and NWOBHM should be clear now.
 * Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not work on the basis of what we surmise, that is just Original research, but needs reliable sources.-- SabreBD  (talk)  17:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Night Ranger
I had no idea Night Ranger was considered glam metal. I've never heard or seen of them being considered such. Have they really ever been considered glam metal? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.209.181.76 (talk) 07:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think they were, but the article is just suggesting that they helped develop the sound, not became part of the genre.-- SabreBD  (talk)  08:41, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Oh ok. That makes more sense I suppose. 72.209.181.76 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:39, 24 October 2011 (UTC).

Comments on the article
1. "Hair metal is a derogatory, derisive umbrella term encompassing the whole 1980s glam metal scene".

I am a big fan of glam/pop/hair metal era and I never felt "hair metal" was a derogatory term.

2. It would be nice if each section in the article showed actual photos from the eras described by the text.

3. It should be added that Steel Panther does not just play 80s style glam metal like Ratt or Guns 'n Roses did. Their lyrics are very explicit and very they don't reflect the way music was made in the 80s. It sounds as if Steel Panther should be praised from bringing back glam metal. They did but in a very different way.

ICE77 (talk) 03:27, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your recent edits and for raising these points. To deal with each point in turn:
 * 1. The bit about hair metal being derogatory is just following the source, which is what we have to do on Wikipedia.
 * 2. It would be nice if the photos were contemporaneous, but unfortunately we largely don't have copyright free images from the era. If anyone can find them it would be great to put them in.
 * 3. Do you have any reliable sources on Steel Panther that would set this out so that we can adjust the relevant section?-- SabreBD  (talk)  06:08, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

SabreDB, thanks for the feedback.

1. The source is just a website I never even heard as popular and I don't think it reflects the view of the majority of people on hair metal. I'm sure other sources describe hair metal in a more unbiased way. I guess they are out there and they can be found.

3. I don't think a source is needed. All you have to do is read the titles of Steel Panther's songs and if you really want, read their lyrics to see that Steel Panther is utterly vulgar. At least bands like Poison or Bon Jovi knew how to be naughty but with style with stuff like "Nothin' but a good time" or "Lay your hands on me".

ICE77 (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately the threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability not truth. I see no reason not to find other reliable sources that give a different perspective on hair metal, but Allmusic is usually considered reliable, so I think it should stay. On Steel Panther, I think there really needs to be a reliable source needed to expand this entry with this view: if we start relying on what we think we hear there will be no saving musical articles.-- SabreBD  (talk)  20:50, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Blues Rock & Punk
Members of Motley Crue Cites the Ramones and the Sex Pistols as Influences and Motley Crue was one of the first Glam Metal Acts. For One, In an interview Nikki Claims that their first album was very Punk Influenced (http://www.nikkisixx.tv/int05.html) and they covered a Sex Pistols Song. Also, In another Interview (http://www.askmen.com/celebs/interview_100/123b_nikki_sixx_interview.html) Nikki lists records he puts on (which included the Ramones). And as for blues-rock, RATT, a prominent late 80's glam metal band began including blues rock into their style. And another prominent late 80's glam band, Cinderella,ventured into Blues Rock with their song Gypsy Road as an example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.172.174 (talk) 02:39, 18 December 2011 (UTC) And also, Aerosmith, a major influence on Glam bands were significantly Blues Rock and Mick Mars played in Blues Rock bands in the 70's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.72.172.174 (talk) 02:42, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Punk rock is sourced in the article. The influence of blues rock was less significant and largely indirectly through hard rock.-- SabreBD  (talk)  09:08, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Extreme glam metal is Hair metal
Hair metal is not glam metal its an extreme form of glam metal

if you listen to this song's guitar solo you will get the idea - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcnfY4rQa-g Thor cherubim (talk) 12:06, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Heart as a Pop Metal Band
There seems to be some discussion about whether Heart qualifies as a Pop Metal band (which is part of Glam Metal).

Heart was a 1970's hard rock band who changed their image in the 1980s with big hair, hit power ballads, and 80's pop metal songs such as "If Looks Could Kill", "The Wolf", "Shell Shock", "Bad Animals", "Wild Child, "Talk Dark Handsome Stranger", etc. These are hard rock/metal songs which were played and charted (in some cases) on hard rock and metal stations/charts. They should qualify for Pop Metal by definition,  even though many of the singles that were released during that time period were power ballads.  Bands such as Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, and Europe had albums very similar to Heart's 80's output (as did 70's Aerosmith have much in common with Heart's 70's output).  If this category was for "Death Metal" or some other derivative of Hard Rock, Heart would not fit.  However, they definitely fit into "Pop Metal".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by DFWRaider (talk • contribs) 03:24, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Reliable sources for the claim? The Mark of the Beast (talk) 06:12, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Black Veil Brides/Blessed With A Broken Heart Inclusion
I would like to talk about the inclusion of both bands listed above. I listen to alot of Metal, Glam Metal esspecially being my forte, and I have never once seen BVB or BWABH classified or even mentioned as part of the Glam Metal genre, or even classified as Metal. I've always seen them labeled as the following: Alternative Rock, Punk (or Pop-Punk), Emo and Post-Hardcore. You can ask my sister and her friends. They don't classify either band as Metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.100.246.129 (talk) 20:14, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for bringing this here. The sources given indicate that the bands had or have had "hair metal" phases. As indicated in this article Allmusic uses hair metal to describe this genre and that seems to support the claim (although we can think about how exactly we phrase that). On Wikipedia we have to go by what is recorded in reliable sources and cannot go by our own impressions.-- SabreBD  (talk)  20:30, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Overlisting
I have cut down some of the overlisting of bands in the article. Three examples is quite enough to demonstrate a point, adding more bands does just makes the article harder to read.-- SabreBD  (talk)  12:07, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Pop metal
i think the article should be renamed pop metal, because all the hard rock bands like kiss, van halen and gnr need to be categorized as pop metal not heavy metal and allmusic even cites them as pop metal. all the glam bands also fall under this category — Preceding unsigned comment added by I call the big one bitey (talk • contribs) 20:55, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As the article points out there are various overlapping names. Pop metal is probably a bit broad and glam metal better describes a specific genre.--  SabreBD  (talk) 22:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Poison is not a Philly band
Did a small edit in the section where Poison and Cinderella are referred to as Philadelphia bands. While Cinderella is from Philly, Poison is from Mechanicsburg, which is some 113 miles away. Poison is not a Philadelphia band. I changed it so both bands are referred to as Pennsylvania bands, which is accurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.139.31.192 (talk) 03:12, 8 July 2012 (UTC)