Talk:Glass Joe/GA1

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk) 09:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC) ]

I think it's worth noting that I have not played these games, so I am very much coming to this with fresh eyes.


 * "While he is still weak in the Wii version a more difficult incarnation exists in that game which caused multiple critics to take notice." This is a rather unweildy sentence, I am not sure I know what it means. There are two versions of the character on the game, one of which isn't as weak as usual?
 * Removed mention of it, as I was thinking it felt awkward in the lead. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "He was originally designed by Shigeru Miyamoto in the arcade game, by Makoto Wada in the NES game, and by Eddie Viser in the Wii game." He can't really be "originally" designed by all three.
 * Removed Miyamoto outright, as I could not find any sources that verify that he designed him. I'm hoping to get this to FA after numerous copyedits, so I want to rely on as few games as references as possible. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "He is also voiced by Christian Bernard in the Wii game." Also? You haven't mentioned anything about voice acting yet.
 * Fixed. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "before the match with him" Referring to "the match" before explaining his role in the game is a little confusing
 * Added mention of his role in the game. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "He was designed by Makoto Wada in the NES version" So he created the character?
 * Fixed. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser" I don't think this is the best way of saying this- "redesigned", maybe, but note the game for which he was redesigned.
 * Fixed. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The history section comes across as a little choppy- you're also throwing a lot of stuff together. Design, development, role in the games... "Glass Joe is a French boxer, hailing from Paris, France. He was designed by Makoto Wada in the NES version. Most recently, he was designed by Eddie Viser. He is portrayed by Christian Bernard in the Wii Punch-Out!!." Four short sentences, all saying very different things.
 * I think that I fixed it. I kept design and development together, as the development of the character was directly related to his design. Hopefully reduced the number of short sentences to an acceptable amount without becoming redundant. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "G4TV's "jmanalang" referenced knocking out Glass Joe as an important aspect of his status as a hardcore gamer.[9]" Seems a little silly as the first thing to mention. Presumably, this is a joke?
 * From what I read from it, he meant it as memorable, that it was something he identifies a favourite game with. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The fact he didn't appear in one of the games is perhaps worth mentioning in the previous section?
 * I was thinking maybe, but he actually doesn't appear in two games, and it's not uncommon in video games for even a recurring character to be absent from some games in the series. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Wired's Chris Kohler used the croissants as an example of how the game enhanced the ethnic stereotypes found in previous games." What croissants? What game?
 * Explained better. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Glass Joe is from France, so of course he sips espressos before his fights, and when he gets knocked out, baguettes literally fly out of his head" Why's this satire? If what he's writing actually happens in the game... Or is he trying to make a comment on the fact the game uses the most obvious French stereotypes?
 * I used the wrong word; I can never remember what word it was, but yeah, what you said is what I view his statement to mean, that he was a collection of all the base stereotypes. I'll just directly quote him without trying to discern what he meant, however. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Giant Bomb's Ryan Davis felt that someone would have to have a sour disposition to take offense to seeing croissants coming from Glass Joe.[21] GameDaily's Chris Buffa mentioned him while discussing Punch-Out!!'s entry in the list of culturally insensitive video games as an example of how its stereotypes can be viewed as either "funny or insulting".[22]" If you merge these two sentences (preferably switching them around) you can more effectively use them to contrast each other.
 * Pretty sure I fixed. I did a tinch of rewriting, so my poor writing skills may have popped up there. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "the fight with Mike Tyson" Same game? The link is to the article on the actual boxer. I assumed from the fact that Glass Joe was made up, they all would be?
 * Clarified; Mike Tyson was a "guest boss" in Punch-Out!! for the NES, where it was known as Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!!. It was changed to just Punch-Out!! after he lost his heavyweight title and his contract with them expired (not because of the ear or rape). It was one of, if not the first example of a sports celebrity in a video game. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Again, the flow in the section on his weakness is somewhat lacking. It comes across as a little choppy- just fact. fact. fact. with little linking them together. Just as a for instance, you could contrast those who praise the fact he's a good opener, giving people a sense of achievement, with those who say he gives a "false sense of familiarity", rather than just listing them both as unrelated facts at different ends of the section.
 * Working on it. I'll have to do some more organization and "merging" to make it more concise and relevant. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Title Defense mode"- explain what this is? Also, the headgear mentioned earlier isn't mentioned here- is that deliberate?
 * Left a note of what it is in an earlier section, and mentioned the headgear. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure we need every example of how the name has been used in reviews and such. Just state that it has been, then give maybe one or two examples?
 * I reduced it some, but I think that the two that I left are good examples - one is using a pretty noteworthy event, while the other is demonstrative of its use, especially by a fairly notable sportsperson. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "prevail like Tyson, or fall to the mat like Glass Joe" Avoid links in quotes. Tyson's already mentioned anyway.
 * Doing, but just curious, why is this? For example, if a comment from a writer mentioned (hypothetical) The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, should I not link at all? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "As much as possible, avoid linking from within quotes, which may clutter the quotation, violate the principle of leaving quotations unchanged, and mislead or confuse the reader." (And yes, I'm aware of the irony.) J Milburn (talk) 11:12, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * ""fall faster than Glass Joe" or not"" What's going on there?
 * Fixed. Must have missed that. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Wladimir Dablink
 * Done. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Mike Tyson's Punch-Out" This game hasn't been mentioned yet
 * Fixed. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Analysis" isn't the right name for that section... It's essentially about the name, and there's some stuff on the name earlier, so perhaps it could be renamed to reflect that? And perhaps placed as a subsection of cultural impact? I don't know, I'm thinking aloud, but it doesn't quite work as it is.
 * Working; I'm trying to think of a good name for it. I want to say that "Use to describe failure" would be good, but it sounds kind of weird to have it be the same phrase as used in the text. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think I agree with the need for two non-free images. File:Glass Joe 1.jpg has a rather weak (but passable) rationale, but it certainly needs to be downsized considerably.
 * I'll get to work on downsizing. Also added to the rationale some. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Punch-Out!!-themed merchandise" Is never mentioned, apart from the in the lead
 * I forgot to fix the lead to remove things that were no longer mentioned in the body. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The Escapist dablink
 * Done. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * From having read the article, I don't think "Video game bosses" is an appropriate category.
 * I suppose it's all a matter of POV; I personally consider the boxers in Punch-Out!! to be bosses in a certain respect. The whole concept of a video game boss is pretty dated anyway, and nowadays, it's hard to say what's a boss anymore. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Cite 27 (Boys' Life. Boys' Life. 1989-05. Retrieved 2010-08-29.) is a little odd. It's a good source, but the formatting is odd.
 * Formatting on 34 (Punch-Out!! Boxer Breakdown. Game Informer. December 2008. p. 74.) also needs checking.
 * What is BitMob (Shirk, Brian (2010-01-07). "RPG Battle Royale: Final Fantasy Vs. Dragon Quest". Bitmob. Retrieved 2010-08-29.) and why is it reliable?
 * While the site is reliable, I chose to remove it as it seemed like it didn't really enhance the article too much. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 03:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Same for Crispy Gamer (Teti, John (2009-07-06). "One and Done: Nine Videogame Characters Who Were Never Heard From Again". Crispy Gamer. Retrieved 2010-08-25.)
 * Crispy Gamer is considered a situational source based on the author, and in my investigation, John Teti is considered reliable. As for BitMob, it is considered a reliable source for articles written by staff members according to WP:VG/RS, as it features known journalists in the industry such as Dan Hsu and, of course, Brian Shirk. I may just remove Crispy Gamer in fear that it will hurt its FA chances in the end, but it's an interesting critique that no one else has made. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for being so critical. While the referencing and research on this article are very good, the writing and formatting are not really up to scratch. I appreciate that this is the case, but it reads very much like it has been put together from passing references here and there, and that does not make a good read. I hope you're able to work on my suggestions and reorder the article/smooth out the prose, because this article does have potential. Everything you need for GA status is there, it just needs some moulding. J Milburn (talk) 10:12, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The more critical the better. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 18:59, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I was thinking that this had FAC potential. Ping me on my talk page when you're ready for me to take another read through. J Milburn (talk) 11:42, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that I fixed all concerns in terms of flow. At the very least, I'm hoping that the remaining problems are few and easily fixed. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 00:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I've requested that the lead image is cleaned up here. If you're able to do that stuff, then go ahead- if not, I've found the Graphic Lab to be very useful in the past. J Milburn (talk) 16:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Second read through
Ok, it's starting to look more ordered. I'm copyediting as I'm going.
 * There's more to be said in "Concept and creation". Who designed the original character for the arcade game? More should be said about his weakness, and his role as the intro to the game, and more should be said about the other French stereotypes- expressos, baguettes, croissants, etc.
 * I'll make the weaknesses and stereotypes stronger elements of the creation section. As for the arcade version, I initially was unable to find a proper reference, but I realized that there was a reference that did not mention Glass Joe, but said that Miyamoto made the designs for the arcade games. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 22:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see now that you've included some of that information in the next section. Perhaps mention there about how he's very weak, acts as an intro to the game, etc. I just feel his role in the game and the concept should be fully explained before we get onto his impact.
 * Done (I think; I left the mention of headgear and title defense in the Appearances section, as I think that it is both relevant to that section and would make it too small without). - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 23:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Am I right?
 * No; while the Allgame reviewer thought this, there was a lesser-known game of the same name to the Super NES version that also lacked him. Different games though. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 22:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
 * "Harris discussed him again in another article and wrote that he "crumples to the floor if a housefly lands on his chin".[22]" This sentence feels a little out of place.
 * "Glass Joe has received criticism for his weakness." I don't really see how you're categorising many of these as criticism. "Game Informer's James Cowan called the fight against Glass Joe a "total joke".[39]" is clearly being critical of the game, and so that is definitely worth mentioning, while the others just seem to be joining in the "hahah, look how rubbish this guy is" thing, which is what he's meant for.

The section on the cultural impact is good, and, yes, that's the important bit, but I think we still need a bit more concerning the in-game stuff and his design. This is getting there, no doubt about that, but if you're interested in taking this to FAC, I'm happy to stick around and keep poking. J Milburn (talk) 11:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Definitely interested in FAC; I want to get the Four Award. However, as much as I would like to, I really cannot add much to his in-game stuff without venturing into guide content. In his games, outside of the cutscenes and a few things about his weakness, Glass Joe is just a boxer - there isn't much to be said about him. Basically, Glass Joe is almost an icon more than he is a character. He has no side-game or side-projects (aside from a couple very brief unsourceable appearances in a comic and cartoon). - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 20:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I'm happy to promote now. I do feel that the article has greatly improved during the GAC. I think the writing is probably still a little choppy in places for FAC; I'd strongly reccomend finding a copyeditor to look at the article with fresh eyes before sending it to FAC. may be a good person to ask- he's experienced at FAC, and video games are his area. Feel free to drop me a line if/when this is sent to FAC, and I'll give it another look. Thanks, and good luck! J Milburn (talk) 16:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)