Talk:Glen Sheil

Date of death
The reports of his death are not specific as to the date. I've used 6 October up till now as that was the date the death was reported. A one-time editor has changed it to 29 September, but without a cite. Rather than reverting it, I've tagged it, because it may be correct for all we know. Either way, we'll need a cite when one becomes available. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:59, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

NEVER a minister
Re Frickeg’s edit with this edit summary: ''No it isn't. Sheil was never in Cabinet, but he was an Executive Councillor, i.e. a Minister. Non-Cabinet ministers (and indeed Parl Secs) are entitled to "Hon."''

Just clarifying that he was an Executive Councillor for a short time, but was never a Minister, and we say as much in the article. There are 2 actions: (a) swearing in as an Executive Councillor (if not already a member; ex-ministers remain members-on-call permanently), and (b) swearing in to a particular ministerial portfolio or parliamentary secretaryship. Normally, (a) leads inexorably to (b), and there is sometimes next to no time between them. Sometimes there’s a delay of a few hours or even a day or so. That was the case with Sheil. For that day or so, he was Senator the Hon Glenister Sheil by virtue, solely, of being an Executive Councillor. Step (b) never happened in his case. Then, step (a) was rescinded. --  Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   12:43, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I stand corrected. Ministers and parliamentary secretaries retain "The Hon" for life - I take it Sheil did not? Frickeg (talk) 12:45, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * No, you're still confusing the issue. It's Executive Councillors who retain "The Hon" for life.  You get to be an "Hon" when you become sworn in to the Executive Council.  You can't get to be a minister unless and until you're sworn in to EXCO.  If such a person dropped dead before they had a chance to be sworn in as a Minister, they would still die "the Hon".
 * Sheil's case was unusual in 2 respects:
 * (1) he was made a member of EXCO in order to become constitutionally eligible to become a minister, but the latter thing never happened because Fraser changed his mind; at this stage, he was still "the Hon" and would have remained so for life had not
 * (2) Fraser decided to strip him of his membership of EXCO.
 * As the article says, ... in fact, Sheil was never a minister at all, but for the two days he was a member of the Executive Council, he was entitled to be known as "Senator the Hon Glenister Sheil". He was "the Hon" only for those 2 days, then he went back to plain Senator Glen Sheil.   --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   13:07, 2 October 2010 (UTC)


 * A little shorthand there. Give me some credit. :) Thanks for the explanation. Frickeg (talk) 13:35, 2 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for over-explaining. Just that, in this particular case, it's especially important to keep the 2 things clearly separate.  And we're not having a private conversation here, so we have a duty to write for, and not unwittingly mislead, those who may not be aware of the intricacies of machinery of government. --   Jack of Oz    ... speak! ...   21:53, 2 October 2010 (UTC)