Talk:Glima

Picture
The picture in the article shows two wrestler in a situation which I believe are very unusual for a glima match because one westler has head down and feet up and the other only holding with one hand. I think the one there was before was better but a picture showing one of the regular throws for example "snedglima a lofti" (maybe I spell it wrong) would be perfect. Kinamand (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

Reliable sources
Þorsteinn Einarsson was Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games between 1941 and 1981. That, in and of itself, makes him a credible source good enough for this Wikipedia article.

As Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games, with the job of collecting all information about the country's history of sport, makes him a more than credible source.

A document about the history of glima in Iceland by this man, who was for 40 years Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games, makes him a more than credible source.

That as he wrote a document about the different forms of glima in "Glima the Icelandic wrestling", which was used by the Olympic Committee of Iceland and presented to the International Olympic Committee in 1984, makes it a more than credible source.

In his document, used by the Olympic Committee of Iceland, this short history of Icelandic glima confirms and gives credibilty to the information about glima on the Wikipedia page.

Stop deleting this very valuable information about all forms of glima from Wikipedia.

If you want to promote Icelandic glima, work on an Icelandic glima Wikipedia page. You can use Þorsteinn Einarsson's document, used by the Olympic Committee of Iceland, as source material. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 15:12, 3 September 2018‎ (UTC)

Glima article
I am engaging here because I am an authority in martial arts. I have taught all forms of glima for almost 30 years. What most people editing this page refer to is Icelandic glima, and instead of working on an Icelandic glima Wikipedia page, they take out all information about glima that is not related to Icelandic glima.

One of the foremost authorities in Iceland, Þorsteinn Einarsson, who was Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games between 1941 and 1981, wrote about the different forms of glima in "Glima the Icelandic wrestling". This document was presented to the International Olympic Committee by the Olympic Committee of Iceland in 1984.

http://www.glima.is/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Glima-the-icelandic-wrestling-a-brief-history.pdf

In the heading to the document "Glima the Icelandic wrestling", it is stated that glima is "An ancient form of wrestling developed from the types of combat brought to Iceland by its settlers in the Viking Age and practiced by their descendants for 11 centuries.

This document, written by the man who was Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games for 40 years, covers glima and its use in warfare, combat, daily life, pleasure, play and competition. The document by Einarsson covers how Icelandic glima was developed, the differences from the other forms of glima and its origins, and the connection between glima and the Icelandic law books which are covered in the glima Wikipedia information.

I think it would be a good idea if the people editing valuable information from this page read Einarsson’s document, and several of the other relevant documents regarding the history of glima.


 * Please try to learn how talk pages work. That is the first step in having a dialogue. You can't just destroy the whole talk page with random stuff.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 15:14, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


 * It seems very obvious that you are biased and know little or nothing about glima. You either refuse to read credible sources or simply do not want to acknowledge the relevant information you keep deleting from the Wikipedia glima page. It is you who keeps destroying the page. If you want to promote Icelandic glima above all else, work on an Icelandic glima Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 15:30, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I have no interest in promoting Glima in any way. I have no interest in anything other than a good article. You destroyed this talk page by trying to make it into an article. It doesn't work like that.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 15:33, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

If you have no interest other than a good article, you should leave the information on the Wikipedia glima page to people who have an interest and expertise in that field. Clean it up by all means, but don't keep deleting important information you know nothing about, and all the reliable and credible sources that confirm the information. The history of glima is long and varied. Let someone who knows what they are talking about build the glima page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 15:44, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I tried to fix the obvious mistakes at first but then I saw that the article had been good in 2014 before someone began adding dubious information so I reverted to that version.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 15:48, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

You are doing a disservice to Wikipedia and everyone who wants information about glima. You keep cutting out all historical information and references and even information about glima in Sweden, the Norwegian national glima championship and the Norwegian Glima Forbund (association). Right now you just keep making it a promotion for one version of Icelandic glima. Let people who know glima and the history of glima work on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 18:19, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

- Glima is not just an icelandic sport, if you (Gneisti) could stop with the name calling, and instead present your arguments as to what you consider as mistakes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.212.70 (talk) 19:02, 3 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Name calling? I have also said that I have no problem with any variety of Glíma being covered here if it is properly sourced.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 19:47, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. The page has now been reduced to incredibly little information about glima. It has all the names of winners of a competition in Icelandic, names of all participants in a competition that occured once in Sweden in 2008, but no names of winners of the Norwegian Glima Championship or the fact that it is held every year, and no mention of the Norwegian Glima Association or the rich history of the several forms of glima. For some reason you decide that the sources are not proper, even though they come from leading government officials, historians, agencies such as Iceland Olympic committee, lawbooks, etc. It is very clear that the person editing the page and deleting all this information is not interested in glima or its history. Why not leave it to someone that IS interested in glima and knows what they are talking about ?


 * "leading government officials, [...] agencies such as Iceland Olympic committee,". If I am not mistaken, all these sources are one and the same. As I have pointed out, you seem to misunderstand Þorsteinn Einarsson's role in government. It had nothing to with historical research or anything like that. He was in charge of promoting physical education and sports. That said, I do think he knew a lot about Glíma though some of his writings are the spirit of a romantic national ideals which were current when he was in his prime.
 * But which historian are you talking about? I don't remember you talking about a source by a historian. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 08:22, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Every time you try to negate information, you show your ignorance on the subject. Þorsteinn Einarsson, who was Island’s inspector for sports and traditional games between 1941 and 1981, had, as part of his job description, the responsibilty for gathering as much information about the history of sport and traditional games in Iceland. In his capacity as Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games, he traveled around Iceland for many years in order to gather this information. It is not for you to decide whether or not his profession or the Iceland Olympic committee are worthy sources. I am sure that this man's 40 year work as Island’s inspector for sports and traditional games, and the knowledge he garnered, is for many, a reliable source.


 * According to "Íþróttalög 46/1956" this was his job description:
 * Íþróttafulltrúi skal hafa á hendi þessi störf:
 * 1. Að hafa umsjón með íþróttastarfsemi í skólum.
 * 2. Að vinna að útbreiðslu og eflingu íþrótta í landinu.
 * 3. Að gera tillögur um framkvæmdir til eflingar íþróttum og hafa eftirlit með slíkum framkvæmdum.
 * 4. Að veita íþróttafélögum og einstaklingum leiðbeiningar og aðstoð varðandi íþróttamál.
 * 5. Að safna skýrslum um íþróttastarfsemi í landinu.
 * 6. Að gera tillögur um úthlutun fjár úr íþróttasjóði.
 * 7. Annað það, sem honum er falið í lögum þessum eða verður falið með reglugerðum, er settar kunna að verða samkvæmt þeim.
 * So, according to this he there was no research involved in his job. He did do research but he held no office in that field. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 10:18, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Óli Gneisti, you have just taken away relevant information about glima from the Wikipedia Glima page. You deleted the mention of the Norwegian Glima Association and the Norwegian Glima championship, but included every name of the winner of 1 Icelandic competition, and all the names and participants of a single glima competition in Sweden. In all seriousness, you cannot be fit to edit a Wikipedia page. (talk) 3 September 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 10:34, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Please learn to use citations. If you don't add them I will revert your changes.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 10:37, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Óli Gneisti, again, you decide what you think is relevant citation then take away relevant information about glima from the Wikipedia Glima page. You deleted the mention of the Norwegian Glima Association and the Norwegian Glima championship, but included every name of the winner of 1 Icelandic competition, and all the names and participants of a single glima competition in Sweden. This is not objective of you. You shouldn't be editing this Wikipedia page. (talk) 3 September 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 10:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Please try to understand that I have no agenda other than having a good article and that you might benefit from reading up on Wikipedia guidelines and rules.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 10:48, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Either you can't see that you are not objective, or you try to make others believe that. You delete relevant information, yet keep putting in irrelevant information. You delete relevant information and turn it into a page about Icelandic glima. For example, instead of the heading History of glima, you change it to History of glima in Iceland. The names of every person who won 1 specific type of glima competition in Iceland is not relevant here. Create a page about Icelandic glima and put that information there. (talk) 3 September 2018 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 10:56, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


 * I simply revert changes that don't use citations. I did not write the page or the heading you are referring to. I think a section about the general rather than Icelandic history of Glíma would be better but you need to read about how you change articles and how to use citations.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 11:00, 4 September 2018 (UTC)


 * Please Wikify your references.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 11:29, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can see, whatever the disagreements regarding this article, which have been taken up in talk, the glima page was gradually moving forward.

Revisions to names and dates have now been changed back to the contended name and incorrect date (see Viking wrestling and Jonsbok)

The last change by Ad Orientem has turned the page back to a Promotional page for Icelandic glima. The title "History of glima" has now been changed to "History of glima in Iceland."

The only organization is now the Icelandic one, and the Norwegian Glima Association which has held the national Norwegian Glima Championship since 2012 has been deleted.

It now has the names of ALL winners of only 1 type of Icelandic glima competition. These names are irreleveant and belong only on an Icelandic glima page about that competition.

The page now has all the competitors for a single 2008 unofficall Danish glima competition, but the names of the winners of the official Norwegian glima championship have been deleted.

This is not progress. It is ridiculous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 15:06, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Untitled
Nordic Wrestling

Glíma Old Norse, “glimpse” or “flash”. Old Norse leikfang “wrestling; a plaything”, compare leikur to “a game”.

Wrestling became very popular to the Norse; it was a contest not only of strength and endurance but was also seen as training. To win you must drop throw the opponent to the ground or lift him up and drop him on anything but on his feet. It was practiced by both men and women from all classes, from one-on-one duels to team competitions.

Viking wrestling was divided into: Glima – Throwing down your opponent. Råbryting, Raw wrestling is like Glima but includes pinning the opponent down. Water wrestling - A wrestling match in the water.

Death: Fanghella

Glima was a very dangerous sport, some even dying in the process. "Whosoever participates in a contest of friendly wrestling or hide-tugging does so on his own responsibility" - Jonsbok

At the center of the wrestling field there was a stone called a fanghella, this stone could be used to both flatten the opponent down on their back or to break it:

“Over his shirt, Búi put on a wrestling jacket, fangastakkur, that helped protect him from broken bones. As his opponent forced him back on to the stone, Búi jumped backwards over it, and he pulled the man down onto the stone. Búi jumped onto his back, breaking his ribs on the stone and killing him.” - Kjalnesinga saga, Chapter 15

Another saga tells a similar story, in which Gunnar pulled his opponent forward across the stone, splitting him open: “They struggled across the field until Gunnar’s feet touched the slab of stone, when he released his hold, took the blámanninum by both shoulders and leaped over the stone backwards. As he did so, Gunnar jerked the blámanninum towards himself so suddenly that he split in half across the stone.” - Gunnars saga Keldugnúpsfífls, Chapter 7

In the Prose Edda: Gylfaginning

After losing a drinking match, Thor requests a wrestling match: “Then said Thor: ‘Little as ye call me, let anyone come up now and wrestle with me; now I am angry.’ Then Útgarda-Loki answered, looking about him on the benches, and spake: ‘I see no such man here within, who would not hold it a disgrace to wrestle with thee;’ and yet he said: ‘Let us see first; let the old woman my nurse be called hither, Elli, and let Thor wrestle with her if he will.

She has thrown such men as have seemed to me no less strong than Thor.’ Straightway there came into the hall an old woman, stricken in years. Then Útgarda-Loki said that she should grapple with Ása-Thor. There is no need to make a long matter of it: that struggle went in such wise that the harder Thor strove in gripping, the faster she stood; then the old woman essayed a hold, and then Thor became totty on his feet, and their tuggings were very hard.

Yet it was not long before Thor fell to his knee, on one foot. Then Útgarda-Loki went up and bade them cease the wrestling, saying that Thor should not need to challenge more men of his body-guard to wrestling.” - Prose Edda: Gylfaginning

It is later explained to Thor that the old woman who he had wrestled with was ‘Old Age’ itself, a thing that not even the gods are immune to: “It was also a great marvel concerning the wrestling-match, when thou didst withstand so long; and didst not fall more than on one knee, wrestling with Elli; since none such has ever been and none shall be, if he become so old as to abide “Old Age,” that she shall not cause him to fall.” - Prose Edda: Gylfaginning

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/games_and_sports.htm

http://sciencenordic.com/how-vikings-killed-time

http://military-fitness.military.com/2012/07/martial-arts-from-around-the-globe-glima-the-vikings-method-of-combat.html

http://www.viking-glima.com/history.html

http://mixedmartialworld.com/wrestle-like-a-viking/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.149.206.153 (talk) 09:01, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Information regarding history of Glima can be found at this link:

http://www.vikingmartialarts.com/glima/2017/1/15/a-history-of-glima-by-tyr-neilsen — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 12:48, 19 January 2017 (UTC)


 * I don't think many of these sources are any good. Calling something "Viking wrestling" has no basis in scholarship--Óli Gneisti (talk) 20:49, 23 August 2018 (UTC).

Glima - 1200 years old martial art system?
The article says that glima is a martial art system but its only source is the story of Thor's visit to Útgarða-Loki. In the wikipedia article about Elli it says: ''The story of Thor's visit to Útgarða-Loki is only related in the Prose Edda and, unusually, Snorri does not quote any old poems to support it. His sources for the story are unknown and it has been suggested that he largely composed it himself.''. And in the versions of the story I have found dont use the word glima but wrestling or that Thor is dancing with Elli or it is written as this: '' Því næst gekk í höllina kerling ein gömul. Þá mælti Útgarða-Loki, at hon skal taka fang við Ása-þór. Ekki er langt um að gera. Svá fór fang þat, at því harðara er Þórr knúðist at fanginu, því fastara stóð hon.''. Notice that it dont use the word glima but fang which means to grip. I can not see how people from that story can conclude that glima is an 1200 years old martial art system. Kinamand (talk) 15:23, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Before the year 1240, glima is mentioned by the name fang (or fangbrögð) in written sources. Famntag, favnetag and favnetak were Swedish, Danish and Norwegian names for wrestling and have the same meaning as fang. In Egils saga, written around the years 1220-1240, the word glímur is mentioned. The noun glíma and the verb að glíma also appear in Finnboga saga (written in the early 13th century). At this time, Viking wrestling was called fang. As the combat version of Viking wrestling (fang) was used to maim or kill, it was considered evil by the Icelandic church. One source says that the name glíma is believed to have been given to Viking wrestling by the clergy in the 11th century, in order to eradicate the remains of the heathen customs. To be rid of the pagan sport/martial art, only brókartök, the trouser-grip version was acknowledged, and glima in Finnboga saga refers only to brókartök. Since then, brókartök has been made a gentler sport over time, and known as glíma in Iceland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 19:49, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Information regarding history of Glima, including original name and when the name glima appears:

http://www.vikingmartialarts.com/glima/2017/1/15/a-history-of-glima-by-tyr-neilsen


 * I don't think that this is a good source. It has claims that I don't think are supported - such as that the "vikings" loved glíma most of all. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 11:53, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing
I comment because of the invitation at WP:FTN. An obvious problem that I see (with both versions) is sourcing. As someone who doesn't know about the topic (and I'm not sure that glima.is is a reliable source in this context, it seems primary), it's difficult to know what are the facts without secondary/tertiary sources. I do find the current (Óli Gneisti's revision) more plausible, however. Since there's no attempt to communicate and form consensus by the IP address editor, I support the current version and will add the article to my watchlist. If disruptive editing persists, I recommend asking for semi-protection at WP:RFPP. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate  – 21:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Source material
This whole article seems very dubious and most of it needs to be rewritten. In truth the whole tone of it seems more in line with 19th century romantic nationalism that modern day views. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 10:54, 30 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I did a little cleanup. As an Icelandic folklorist I want to say that any claims of Glíma being a viking martial art is not supported by any sources that I know. Also, this article has a confusing approach to non English letters in Icelandic words.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 11:48, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I reverted the whole thing. Please don't change this article to promote pseudo-history. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 13:02, 30 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I reverted the whole thing. Again. Engage me here if you think I am wrong.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 20:41, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

I am engaging here because I am an authority in martial arts and have taught all forms of glima for almost 30 years. What most people editing this page refer to is Icelandic glima, and instead of working on an Icelandic glima Wikipedia page, they take out all information about glima that is not related to Icelandic glima.

One of the foremost authorities in Iceland, Þorsteinn Einarsson, who was Island’s inspector for sports and traditional games between 1941 and 1981, wrote about the different forms of glima in "Glima the Icelandic wrestling". This document was presented to the International Olympic Committee by the Olympic Committee of Iceland in 1984.

http://www.glima.is/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Glima-the-icelandic-wrestling-a-brief-history.pdf

In the heading to the document "Glima the Icelandic wrestling", it is stated that glima is "An ancient form of wrestling developed from the types of combat brought to Iceland by its settlers in the Viking Age and practiced by their descendants for 11 centuries.

This document, written by the man who was Island’s inspector for sports and traditional games for 40 years, covers glima and its use in warfare, combat, daily life, pleasure, play and competition. The document by Einarsson covers how Icelandic glima was developed, the differences from the other forms of glima and its origins, and the connection between glima and the Icelandic law books which are covered in the glima Wikipedia information.

I think it would be a good idea if the people editing valuable information from this page read Einarsson's document, and several of the other relevant documents regarding the history of glima.

GLIMA AND ICELANDIC GLIMA

What you are talking about is Icelandic Glima. And then, only 1 form of Icelandic glima, belt-grip glima.

There is much information about the different forms of glima such as the Icelandic scource "Glima the Icelandic wrestling" by Þorsteinn Einarsson

http://www.glima.is/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Glima-the-icelandic-wrestling-a-brief-history.pdf

Also "History of Martial Arts in Iceland" by J Bjarnason

https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/12161/1/History%20of%20martial%20arts%20in%20Iceland%20and%20their%20image%20in%20Icelandic%20media.pdf

Or the article on the history of Glima by T. Neilsen who is President of the Norwegian Glima Association https://www.vikingmartialarts.com/glima/2017/1/15/a-history-of-glima-by-tyr-neilsen

Why not start a Wikipedia page about Icelandic Glima ? Just make sure you include the other forms of glima too.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.208.98 (talk) 09:36, 3 September 2018‎ (UTC)

---


 * If you have sources that are good, please use them. But be aware that Þorsteinn Einarsson was not a scholar, he was teacher and administrator of physical education. A BA thesis is not really a good source. Neilsen's article is mostly self-promotion about his own brand of Glíma, not a good source at all. I have no problem with this article dealing with all sorts of Glíma, just use reliable and independent sources. --Óli Gneisti (talk) 12:52, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

GLIMA AND ICELANDIC GLIMA - CREDIBLE SOURCES

Þorsteinn Einarsson was Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games between 1941 and 1981. That, in and of itself, makes him a credible source good enough for this Wikipedia article.

As Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games, with the job of collecting all information about the country's history of sport, makes him a more than credible source.

A document about the history of glima in Iceland by this man, who was for 40 years Iceland’s inspector for sports and traditional games, makes him a more than credible source.

That as he wrote a document about the different forms of glima in "Glima the Icelandic wrestling", which was used by the Olympic Committee of Iceland and presented to the International Olympic Committee in 1984, makes it a more than credible source.

Stop deleting this very valuable information about all forms of glima from Wikipedia.

If you want to promote Icelandic glima, work on an Icelandic glima Wikipedia page. You can use Þorsteinn Einarsson's document, used by the Olympic Committee of Iceland, as source material.


 * Please try to understand how wikipedia works and how this Talk page works. I have looked at how Þorstein's job was described, it had nothing to do with the history of sports. It was for the promotion of physical education and sports.--Óli Gneisti (talk) 15:19, 3 September 2018 (UTC)
 * @84.48.208.98: New comments/sections should go at the bottom of the page and be signed using four tildes ( ~ ). Thanks, — Paleo  Neonate  – 01:07, 4 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I won't waste more time going though every edit to fix layout issues. The next time comments are misplaced or the talk page layout changed, it's likely best to simply revert the new edit batch...  — Paleo  Neonate  – 01:10, 4 September 2018 (UTC)