Talk:Glinciszki massacre

Executed Lithuanian commander?
Can we get a more reliable source for that? Kazimieras Garšva reported in "XXI amžius" is hardly reliable. I have a reliable Polish academic source that the commander and 11 of his subordinates were arrested; the reason was that one of the massacred individuals was employed by the German administration and his supervisor requested that the guilty be punished... --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What police unit, exactly?
What police unit was involved in the massacre? Was it the Lithuanian Security Police? The Lithuanian Auxiliary Police? Some other unit? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:24, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Act of reprisal
I do not like calling Dubingiai massacre "act of reprisal" in this article. It sounds like justification, like writing that Glinciszki massacre was "act of reprisal" instead of mass murder. --Dirgela (talk) 18:08, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 02:29, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Glinciszki massacre → Glitiškės massacre – The place name that should be used in naming a massacre is the name that is used in the country that the location is in right now, not in the past, and regardless of the massacre's targets. For example, Lviv pogroms (1941) use the name of Lviv, the Ukrainian name, instead of the Polish Lwów, regardless of the city's ethnic composition at the time of the event. Another example is Rathlin Island massacre, where the English-language Rathlin is used instead of the Irish Reachlainn, which should be the case if one was naming articles based on the victim's ethnicity instead of the current place name. Another example of where the current place-name instead of ethnic-related names are used is the List of massacres in Romania, where it is written the Romanian-language Geoagiu massacre instead of the Hungarian-language Algyógy massacre or the Romanian-language Bucerdea Vinoasă massacre instead of the Hungarian-language Borosbocsárd massacre, even if the massacres were committed against Hungarians. Ergo, this article should be renamed as I am renaming it. Cukrakalnis (talk) 00:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Comment:

Google search: The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
 * Glinciszki massacre - about 25,000 results
 * Glitiškės massacre - about 29,600 results
 * Naming standards as a result of Gdańsk vote mandate editors to utilize names of the place as they were at the time of the affairs which in this case would be Glinciszki. See below:  -  GizzyCatBella  🍁  01:38, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose. For years, the massacre in which Lithuanians died was called Dubingiai massacre, with a Lithuanian name, and the ones in which Poles died, with te Polish name Glinciszki. I think that's an elegant compromise, ensuring the naming doesn't suggest framing those related incidents with Polish or Lithuanian POV. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:13, 18 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, the massacre is known under the name Glinciszki, town was predominantly Polish and part of Poland before the war, what's more Poles were the main victims. Compare it to Koniuchy massacre, Ponary massacre or Kisielin massacre Marcelus (talk) 14:28, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Census data
@Cukrakalnis The information about some 90% of Poles in the Paberžė municipality comes not from the Polish census, but from the work of Stanisław Gorzuchowski. Marcelus (talk) 20:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * No, the 94% comes from polski spis z 19 grudnia 1919 r.. S. Gorzuchowski gave the numbers as 87,7% in 1928. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, I guess rounding up wasn't needed Marcelus (talk) 20:16, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I protest against giving figures from the census of May 27, 1942, which was taken in an atmosphere of terror seven days after the mass killings of Polish people by Lithuanian collaborators in the Švenčionys district (Święciany massacre). See: Rokicki p. 107. Marcelus (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Why don't you protest against the figures of the Polish census in 1919 where Lithuanians are entirely erased from a region they inhabited for numerous centuries and where they certainly existed at the time? Seems like a double standard on your side. Cukrakalnis (talk) 21:34, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * What? You keep adding 1919 census, not me. Marcelus (talk) 21:39, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The estimates by a Polish geographer from 1928 that you keep adding erase the existence of Lithuanians in the same manner, so it's no better. My statement about your double standard still stands. Also, the unreliability of a census does not mean that it should not be mentioned at all. It should be mentioned, yet you repeatedly erase population figures that do not suit your preconceptions.
 * Furthermore, you keep adding However, the censuses show the dominance of the Polish population on both sides of the border and removing the rest which is inaccurate/does not give the full picture. Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:18, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, you are making fair points Marcelus (talk) 23:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Names of the towns
I think it would be right to leave the Polish names of the villages from which the victims were from. First of all, because they were killed for being Polish, and secondly, before the war these towns were part of Poland. This does not apply to Vilnius, let it stay under its modern Lithuanian name.

I understand that this may be an uncomfortable topic for Lithuanian editors, but I would ask you to look at it from a broader perspective. Marcelus (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Yes, I guess that’s fair. Plus take a look at the Glinciszki massacre requested move 18 June 2022 (see above). - GizzyCatBella  🍁  20:33, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * They were not killed because they were Polish, but because they were suspected of working together with the Polish Home Army, which were perceived as bandits akin to the Soviet partisans by the occupational government as well as people that did not share their political ideas. Predictably, people who self-identified as Poles were far more likely to collaborate with the Polish Home Army compared to all other national groups in the region. Like it says in the article - Only Władysław Klukowski answered this question in Lithuanian, thanks to which he was spared, the others were shot. + The residents of the manor itself, which included several families and a group of Ursuline nuns, were spared. If the Lithuanian auxiliary police company intended to massacre all people that were perceived as Poles within their surroundings, then they (thankfully) failed. However, killing all Poles was obviously not their intention.
 * None of these are towns. They're villages. The most numerous of which have less than half of 1k inhabitants. Some (certainly at least one of them) don't even exist anymore. It doesn't make sense to do what you're proposing. Like we already discussed on my talk page - User_talk:Cukrakalnis/Archives/2023/February - ...the thing is that for lesser-known places like towns and villages, it would be far too disorienting for the average Wikipedia reader to see four or five different names for e.g. Utena depending on who is in control of it. There are already enough people who confuse the Baltics with the Balkans, let alone the countries within it and their capitals. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:46, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Apparently the municipality is recorded as roughly half Polish and half Lithuanian in the census of 1942, so arguing for the use of certain names based on demographics does not really hold up. Cukrakalnis (talk) 20:55, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I cannot agree with this, undoubtedly the Polishness of the victims mattered and was the reason why they were killed. Even accepting your argument, there is still the fact that the area where the crimes were committed was part of Poland. I believe that because this was a crime committed against Poles, we should keep the Polish wording of the place names. Marcelus (talk) 21:38, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Well, the Polishness of the victims mattered insofar as they were killed because they were presumed to support the Polish Home Army. And they did support the Polish Home Army and even belonged to it according to the article, so the Lithuanian auxiliary policemen 'guessed' correctly.
 * The area was under Polish rule for 20 years before the event (1919-1920, 1920-1939), was under Soviet rule from 1939 Sept. to Oct., then Lithuanian rule from 1939 Oct. to 1940 June, again under Soviet rule from summer 1940 to summer 1941. From summer 1941 to summer 1944, under German rule. It was also contested at the start of the interwar by Lithuanians, who ruled in these areas in the years of 1918-1920, even if in intervals. Before 1918 - 3 yrs of rule by Imperial Germany, and Russian rule for far more than 20 years. Former rule over a territory is not a strong argument, especially in a region that changed hands very many times. Plus, at the time of the massacre, the languages officially used in the Generalbezirk Litauen were German and Lithuanian, so the Lithuanian place names should be preferred over Polish ones.
 * In addition, the most common current English name for these locations should be used, but because of the obscurity of these villages, WP:UE is the rule to follow: If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on). Cukrakalnis (talk) 22:08, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I vaguely recall loooong time ago we had a consensus to use Polish names here and Lithuanian ones in Dubingiai massacre. In either case, using both (the other one in parenthesis) may help. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 02:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Secondary sources believed to meet Eastern Europe criteria
and “The Mass Persecution and Murder of Jews: The Summer and Fall of
 * quote="This presentation is in part a modified summary and collation of my studies presented in earlier venues":
 * My reports
 * Foreign Saviors, Native Disciples: Perspectives on Collaboration in Lithuania, 1940–1945, presented in April 2002 at the “Reichskommissariat Ostland” conference at Uppsala University and Södertörn University College, now published in: Collaboration and Resistance during the Holocaust. Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, ed. David Gaunt et al
 * My articles in Vilnius at the conference Holocaust in Lithuania in Vilnius 2002:
 * The Burden of 1941, in: 'Lituanus' 47:4 (2001), pp. 47-60;
 * introduction to Avraham Tory’s well-known diary,
 * introduction to Avraham Tory’s well-known diary,
 * introduction to Avraham Tory’s well-known diary,


 * despite the title, this source contains several substantive mentions of Lithuania's circumstances. While Lithuania is not its primary topic, the histories of the two countries are closely interrelated and the mentions are well beyond passing references; several are three or more pages long
 * despite the title, this source contains several substantive mentions of Lithuania's circumstances. While Lithuania is not its primary topic, the histories of the two countries are closely interrelated and the mentions are well beyond passing references; several are three or more pages long

doi=10.1163/9789401208895_005
 * Full text available online
 * new isbn=9789653080843



Criterion problems

 * {{cite web
 * url=https://www.wilsoncenter.org/person/saulius-suziedelis
 * title=sauliuziedelis
 * publisher=Wilson Center
 * I believe the Wilson Center is considered "a reputable institution" if not though, this may well qualify as written by an expert

}}
 * June 1999 United States Justice Department
 * I believe the US Justice Department is considered "a reputable institution" if not though, this may well qualify as written by an expert since afaik it concerns their litigation
 * {{cite journal
 * url=https://www.jmberlin.de/sites/default/files/antisemitism-in-europe-today_15-malinauskaite.pdf
 * publisher=Judisches Museum Berlin
 * author=Malinauskaite
 * title=Holocaust Memory and Antisemitism in Lithuania: Reversed Memories
 * journal=Antisemitism in Europe Today

Abstract only

 * Abstract:


 * Abstract


 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/41345176
 * does not display in certain environments

Secondary sources that do not meet sourcing standards
While these sources do not meet sourcing standards, they can however be read for issue identifucation or narrative summaries. The information can be used assuming a source can be found elsewhere for the statement


 * Decades After Soviet Terror Lithuania confronts Holocaust

Memory War

 * Memory war NBC News

Nazi prosecutions

 * CNN 2010 06 03 Nazi Prosecutions