Talk:Gods Will Be Watching

Composer's name
See MOS:GENDERID. Since her official name is Paula "Fingerspit" Ruiz now, and according to the wikipedia Manual of Style, I think we should refer to her that way and, not with her deadname, throughout her life. -- Yonunca (talk) 19:54, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * GENDERID usually applies to pronouns and gendered nouns, not names. There are also people who simply changed their name without any special occurence (e.g. Elton John, who is still referred to as "Reggie Dwight" [his birth name] on Bluesology, which formed and defunct before he changed his name), we usually keep those. GENDERID does not explicitly outline name changes, and honestly, it shouldn't. Imagine Ruiz decides to take on another first name, on which account should we change the name here, even though she is still credited as "Pablo" in the game itself? Retroactive name changes are uncommon to be done and rarely gain any concensus.
 * On a side not, where does the name "Paula" come from? It does not appear in her newest game, not on Deconstructeam's website and not in her social media feeds. This Spanish website seems to be the only source using that name. Would you be able to provide a source (either reliable to the project or by Ruiz herself) that outlines the new first name? Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 20:04, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * In the publisher | Devolver Digital's Gods Will Be Watching website, on the third bulletpoint on the left Finer Points section, they just say her nickname: "Original soundtrack by Fingerspit". In the studio's official website, on the TEAM page it clearly says Paula Ruiz "fingerspit". Also on the last Edge Magazine Spanish edition they've published an interview with both Jordi de Paco and Paula Ruiz, but as far as I know there's only a magazine retail edition and not an online one. -- Yonunca (talk) 20:13, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I see, thanks for these. But again, while this will suffice for the company article and The Red Strings Club, I'm afraid that the older name is what she is referred to in the game and subsequently should be credited as here (similar to Template:Infobox film). Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 20:36, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Sincerely, I think we should just leave it as Fingerspit or alternatively: P. "Fingerspit" Ruiz but the deadname is not justified here. -- Yonunca (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * While technically I could agree to the former, I'm not convinced that a name change (of whatever origin) should retroactively have an impact on listings. After all, it is written down in multiple instances that the game was scored by a person known as Pablo Ruiz. I'm also not comfortable with the term 'deadname'; I'm pretty sure that this name still appears in official documents, such as the birth certificate. You also would rally against naming "Reggie Dwight" in instances where he was still called so at the time just because he is called Elton John now. Historical accuracy is always preferred. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 21:02, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Deadnaming is a very real thing -- Yonunca (talk) 21:45, 11 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Seems like I'm not quite aware of the terminology in that field, apologies. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 15:16, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I offered a solution consisting in leaving just her nickname, as it appears in the Devolver Digital, the game page at the publisher's website, or even leaving the initial letter P. "Fingerspit" Ruiz but don't see a clear intention of reaching a consensus regarding this issue. Yonunca (talk) 17:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * You did, and I quite clearly stated why I disagree with that, given relevant reasoning and examples. If you really think that this change for a years-old game, you will probably need to include a third party, such as the people from the Video games WikiProject. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 19:04, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * In the game's wikia credits page there is her current (and legal) name Yonunca (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * It appears that this has been changed earlier today. Wikis in general, per WP:USERG, are not reliable sources as they are purely created by its users. Wikipedia is also not a reliable source on Wikipedia, haha. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 21:07, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Then you have This website which is not a wiki. Also here is Paula's profile with the games she's composed Yonunca (talk) 22:50, 12 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Rawg.io looks much like a database. You might want to bother looking for a reliable source on the matter, one that identifies Paula Ruiz with the game. For video games specifically, there is a list of sources you can choose from and a custom search engine for just these. Otherwise, you may still try to achieve consensus through involving more parties familiar with video game creditation (WT:VG, for example), as I am likely to stand with my point. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 06:16, 13 April 2018 (UTC)


 * I also invite you to have a look at the wikipedia articles of the whole Against Me! discography. The band's lead singer is a trans woman named Laura Jane Grace who came out as a woman in 2012, but all the previous works of the band are properly credited here in wikipedia featuring her current legal woman name, Laura Grace. For instance you can look at Against Me! (demo) from year 2000 or The Disco Before The Breakdown from 2002 or Against Me! Is Reinventing Axl Rose or Searching for a Former Clarity from 2005 or ANY OTHER ALBUM and check the 'Personnel' section and you are always going to read Laura Grace Jane and not her previous name. I also invite you to to read all the Talk sections of these wiki articles and realize that no album has had this amount of debate as we are having here. And 'Against Me!' is a really famous band. Yonunca (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * If you go through the pages' edit histories you can see that all (literally) of these changes on albums by some anonymous IP user and has not been discussed in any way. I initially brought up The Matrix because, as evident on the talk page, it has been extensively discussed with consensus turning up to retain the deadnames of both directors and their professional collective title. Also, desperately searching for some article [group] that somehow, even if not actually, supports you POV is more WP:OTHERSTUFF. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 07:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * Personal issues like "desperatly" are highly rejectable here. Also, you talk about the Wachoswkis collective name, but it is not related with this topic here. Paula is not a collective name, she is not working here with any sister of her. Maybe you are a little bit obsessed with trans issues, as I see how intense you were for years in the Matrix talk page. Yonunca (talk) 08:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * As I said previously, this discussion is going nowhere, and your newest comment does not advance the topic in any way either. It only tries to disprove a claim I did not make (that "Pablo" was a collective name) and continues into in a personal attack in calling me "obsessed" and "intense" for no apparent reason, also degrading me to transphobic while all I want is historical accuracy regardless of a change's origin (which I have pointed out so many times). I've presented my side, you've presented yours. Fin. Since it appears imposibile for us to reach any proper agreement, WP:STATUSQUO (which already complies with MOS:GENDERID, the inital point-of-issue) is here to stay. And since my suggestions for possible approaches on how to solve this democratically have been ignored, I think it is time for all of us to just WP:STICK and not waste each other's time. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 09:13, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


 * It Spanish legislation the autor have the right to decide under which name their work is gonna appear (Real Decreto Legislativo 1/1996 Articulo 14). Keeping her born name is not only immoral, but also illegal. Naril (talk) 10:35, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * In June 2014, Mrs. Ruiz chose to publish her work as "Pablo Ruiz", so should she now be sued because she retroactively infringes on her own rights (literally before even adopting the new name)? Furthermore, she is credited as such in the game; do we have to sue Deconstructeam and Devolver Digital now? I fully recognise that she uses Paula now, as such she is represented as Paula on the company's page and on The Red Strings Club, but keeping the old name here, which has literally been longer on here than her new name, is completely valid. We are also not publishing her work either, we are amassing information about it, and information stands that the game was scored by Pablo Ruiz. I also ask you to ask WT:VG regarding the issue, but similar attempts have led to The Matrix keeping The Wachowski Brothers as creators, since their work came 10+ years before their name changes. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 14:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * It is absolutely unnecesary to talk about suing Paula or Deconstructeam. And also the Matrix comparison is not comparable to this topic, nor is the "10+ years" argument. This work is not so famous as the film you talk about, and no "10+ years" is applicable here. Yonunca (talk) 14:31, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You will quickly come to realize that my "sueing comments" were of rhetorical origin. Either way, are you proposing that retroactive changes should only be done for less notable articles, and it is totally fine to keep the old names on articles like The Matrix? You do realize that this sounds rather obnoxious, right? We treat every article every article the same, as we do with name changes: Adapt those without historical context, retain those with. It does not matter whether this name change originated from marriage, legalities or gender change. This is neither illegal nor transphobic, bit historically accurate. As I have now multiply stated, please take it to the appropriate WikiProject if you feel like it urgently needs consensus. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 15:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Also coming back to MOS:GENDERID, it says, quite clearly, "Referring to the person in other articles: [...] Use context to determine which name or names to provide on a case-by-case basis."; the context here is a game from 2014, where Pablo was presented, so the case is "Pablo". If you really like to go by guidelines, then retainig Pablo would be correct. The other (major) portion of MOS:GENDERID only refers to usage of pronouns in that person's own article. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 15:12, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * You don't understand what a right is. Particularly, this is unrenounceable and unalienable. She can change her mind when ever she want because she have the intelectual propiety of her work. Literally, she can be anonimus if she wants. Or use a nick. She can do what ever she wants while she have the rights because the law protect her. If you don't like the law, reclaim it to Spanish legislators. Naril (talk) 22:23, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Reading article, it says that one has the right to "Determine if such disclosure has to be made with your name, under a pseudonym or sign, or anonymously". IIRC Ruiz requested disclosure of her work under the name Pablo Ruiz in 2014. The article does not state that they have the right to retroactively force everyone to change their product lablings, so this discussion makes little sense. I have stated above what you can do (seek other parties qho know vedio game creditation), otherwise it would time to WP:STICK, as this discussion is going nowhere. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 09:36, 14 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The developer is trying to raise a stink on twitter over this discussion: https://twitter.com/Deconstructeam/status/999619700702228480 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.2.133.92 (talk) 12:28, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I have been made aware that the stance on retroactivity of people of changed gender IDs (Gender identity) has been altered to support the inclusion of the new name even in articles for times where the name had not yet existed. Hence, I have been incorrect throughout this above discussion and respectively apologized in an edit summary as well as directly to the primary involved editor, Yonunca. Lordtobi  ( &#9993; ) 12:44, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Source

 * https://archive.org/details/edge2017003/page/n91