Talk:Goku/Archive 1

Cleanup
Just curious, I've done a major cleanup of Goku's page and tried to cut down the bio section since it was basically a complete overview of each saga. What I'm wondering is if we really need the sections on super strength, super speed and Goku Vs Superman? What are peoples opinions?

Darkwarriorblake 13:55, 8 Jun 2006(UTC)


 * Goku vs. Superman is as far from being necessary as you can get. It belongs on some fan page or something somewhere, not here where it has nothing to do with the topic of the article, aside from including Goku in it. If we included everything on this article that had anything to do with Goku then we could probably just replace Wikipedia in its entirety with the content. And since this isn't "Gokupedia", it should be taken out.


 * As for Super Strength and Super Speed, they too might be more appropriate elsewhere, since they are discussions of Goku's abilities that go beyond just providing information on him, and instead talk about all kinds of debate (which users seem to enjoy editting false information into). Mentioning that Goku has incredible strength and speed, beyond that of almost anyone else in Dragon Ball should be sufficient. Just mention them as though they were special abilities, much like the techniques listed, without giving them their own sections.


 * Daishokaioshin 02:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Indeed, even though he is stupidly strong, everyone in Dragon Ball is so I wouldn't have said he was anything particularly special. Vegeta can fly through mountains...WITH HIS FACE!  Gohan cracked that rock and said at his age his father could've broken it.  I'll remove those sections for now and if someone wants thinks its unique enough to warrant adding it perhaps we can add it to techniques or something.

Darkwarriorblake 13:55, 8 Jun 2006(UTC)


 * Majinvegeta 12:07, 2 Sept 2006 (UTC)
 * I completely cut down the Saiyan Saga. Half that stuff in there didn't have to be said. This page is about Goku and so it should explain the Saiyan saga in relation to him and its the most important points, not the entire thing, event for event.

Majinvegeta 12:09, 2 Sept 2006 (UTC)

Actions during the sagas
There are articles for these sagas so perhaps they don't need to be potentially as long as they are since most of Gokus actions are repeated in their respective saga articles. Does anyone have any advice for shortening the sections in this article down on the sagas?

- I already did. I think it is wise to shorten the sagas to the important facts and mostly the stuff in the manga alone (original media version of Dragonball). Somebody had edited the Saiyans saga so it described the series literally event for event, I took out the most unimportant ones like (for example) King Kai telling Goku jokes. That is really something that doesn't need to be told, and a slightly detailed description of the sagas would be sufficient for a reviewer who doesn't want to read about Goku's failed attempts at catching Bubbles. Even a basic description of the events in the fights would be okay in my opinion.

Majinvegeta 5 Sept 12:45

Age 12
Under the Dragonball picture, it says Goku was 12 at the start. I thought he was 5 because in DBZ, Bulma said she knew him since he was 5 and in Dragonball, they said that the World Martial Arts tournament was held every 7 years (but was going to be changed to every 3). Can someone elaborate on this?


 * That was a dub error. In Dragon Ball Goku is clearly stated as being 12 (he thought he was older at first, but he didn't know how to count properly). There is no way that Bulma knew Goku from the time he was 5. As for the Tenkaichi Budokai, the times it was held fluctuate greatly depending on the source you refer to, as well as due to events in the series. However, I thought that it was originally held yearly in Dragon Ball, and was changed to every five years later on. I may be incorrect on this, since, as I stated, the numbers vary with the source, and aren't always consistent in the series.


 * Daishokaioshin 21:12, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Because he couldn't count properly, Goku stated that he was 14 to Bulma when they first met. Later, he revealed to the crowd at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai that he was twelve instead of 14.


 * User:Majinvegeta:Majinvegeta 23:26, 6 Sept 2006 (UTC)

Quick Ref Table
I've added a table at the top of the page with character info: various names, level of canon, picture, and links to family members. I am hoping to create these tables on many of the Dragon Ball character pages, if no one has any objections, to try and build some design consistency within the Dragon Ball articles in the system. We already have largely consistent headers, but work remains on that still.

Any objections? I would suggest that we keep what is in the table down to a minimum: just the facts, maam. Once you start down the road of power levels, trained by, and favorite techniques I feel we've gone too far. Any comments? Does it render well on other browsers? JRP 03:25, 25 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * Very good idea JRP, I've recently been experimenting with Templates, and created a copy of your character info table as a Template (DB Character). I'd suggest we try to use it where we can, so that if we decide to make any modifications to the table, it can mostly be done all at once...to the template itself. Let me know if you have any objections.


 * here's a comparison of the Son Goku (Dragon Ball) Example (at the time of writing they are identical, except for differing images of Goku):


 * It's use is pretty simple, the only problem is a limitation when using unique graphics (read m:Help:Templates). the problem is that the Image name is bound by the name of the page it resides on (which shouldn't be much of a problem). As of this writing, the image name for Template:DB Character is defined by: "Image:_photo.jpg", so Son Goku (Dragon Ball)'s image is "Image:Son_Goku_(Dragon_Ball)_photo.jpg". BCKILLa 13:55, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

POV statement
What's the basis for calling Goku one of the "most recognizeable anime characters"? I think something that POV needs a source, so removing it for now. Also, if his most recogniable form is the orange jumpsuit, why does the picture have a dark outfit? -- nae'blis (talk) 19:39, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I have a picture of him in his normal orange clothes you could use if it bothers you that much KojiDude 19:45, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Super Saiyan
a lot of the content in the Super Saiyan section (including most/all of the images) is repeated on the page Super Saiyan. i know we probably need to mention that goku reached all of these forms and when, but i dont think we need to go into this much detail. Plough | talk to me 10:07, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I tried to clean that up a bit but i'm having a lot of problems with image formatting so if anyone wants to take a shot at it, the images are here.

Image:Goku204.jpg Image:Gokussj3deadhovering.jpg Image:Super_Saiyan_2.jpg Image:Ultra_Super_Saiyan_Differences.jpg Image:Gokuss.jpg

These aren't my images so feel free to change them if they aren't suitable.

darkwarriorblake | talk to me 10:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I have linked the images, as you can't inline images in Talk pages, only in articles. -- ReyBrujo 20:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Speaking of the Super Saiyajin section, could someone please explain to me the difference between Ultra and Ascended? Both sections say pretty much the same thing: Goku went in the HBTC, lots of bulky muscles, slower, Goku decided it's not a good form. --Insanityrealmv2 22:17, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * See the Super Saiyan article. Basically Ascended has increased muscle mass, but not enough to significantly alter speed or agility. Ultra has far too much muscle mass, and thus speed is greatly reduced, along with general mobility. Ascended has no negative side to it, per se, and thus is different from Ultra.


 * Daishokaioshin 22:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Super Speed
If someone is moving at the speed of sound, then they are just a blur when they are covering short distances, close-up. If they're going even faster, it becomes almost impossible to see them, unless they are extremely large and at a great distance. If the characters of Dragon Ball could already move at the speed of light, then I highly doubt that Piccolo would have been impressed when Raditz dodged his Makankosappo/Special Beam Cannon, and the Namekian warrior proclaimed, "He can move faster than the speed of light!"

I highly doubt that any character in DBZ could move at the speed of light, without the assistance of some powerful technique, such as Shunkanidou/Instant Transmission, or Kai Kai/Instantaneous Movement. They most certainly were moving at multiples of the speed of sound, since if someone standing in front of you moved at mach 5 to a spot several feet away, it would appear as though they teleported. And if they were continuously moving at that speed, they would effectively be invisible to a normal person.

A Ki field of some kind would probably be required to keep one's clothes from burning off when using such high speeds inside an atmosphere, due to friction, but that's not a problem for the Z Senshi. Anyway, try not to take statements such as "He's faster than the speed of light" seriously, since simple physics, and the show itself, contradict such things.

Daishokaioshin 04:32, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree to an extent but we are dealing with Anime physics her. But I agree completely. But on the Gotenks reference in that episode you'll notice that after Gotenks landed and Piccolo caught up with him and he then proceeded to go fight Buu he had used up most of his fusion time. I think that all those times around the planet took a little bit longer than what was actually represented in the show. I can't reference from the Manga though.Rayfire 21:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)


 * 2 things Dai. First, this is a nitpick I admit, but Kai Kai isn't Instaneous Movement. That's Shunkan Idou. Instant Transmission is the same thing, just the dub's choice of words in translating it. Second and of more import- it's been awhile, but I'm pretty sure in the original version Mutaito implied that a ki-fighter had reflexes as fast as the speed of light. I don't know about flat out running/flying speed, but they did have "lihgtning-fast" reflexes even back in Dragonball. And by Buu Saga, some of them could. Gotenks (and later Pan) circled the world how fast? It's way to late in the day to be doing the math, but it was certainly past the "mach" category. As for friction- good point. But Toriyama is an action/comedy writer, not hardcore sci-fi. I mean, look at the inconsistent tech levels of the show itself. Earth has infinite space compression devices and can simulate gravity to whatever degree they want (and space/time travel just require a little time), and yet they world is scarcely populated and their military is roughly on par with ours today. Don't hold the science under too much scrutiny, because it simply cannot stand up. Onikage725 03:23, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Kai Kai is a seperate technique from Shunkanidou. Kai Kai isn't limited by needing a Ki signature, and can be used to go ANYWHERE. The name "Instantaneous Movement" is just the dub name given for the technique, when Kibitoshin is explaining it to Goku. If Kai Kai is not the technique used by Kibito (and Kibitoshin) to teleport around wherever he wants, then tell me what you think it is.


 * Daishokaioshin 03:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm fully aware of what the Kai Kai is. I wasn't aware that the dub named it Instantaneous Movement. While that is a good descriptor for the technique, it's name is simply Kai Kai, and Goku's technique is Instaneous Movement. Literally. Shunkan (Instant/Instantaneous) Idou (Movement). Instant Transmission could be an argument of semantics on the localization of the 2nd word. I didn't say that the Kai Kai wasn't Kibito and Kaioshin's technique. I said Instaneous Movement (i.e. Shunkan Idou) isn't Kaioshin's. Don't bite my head off for being unclear on dub mistakes. Onikage725 17:19, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I wasn't "biting your head off" for ANYTHING. I gave an explanation of what my understanding of Kai Kai was, since I was unlcear on what exactly you had said, and then asked for you to tell me what you believe it to be, so that I could compare that to the manga. If you want to take offense to that, then I'm not going to stop you, but you should at least be aware that I was not doing or saying anything offensive, either intentionally or accidentally, and that being offended isn't going to help anything.


 * Daishokaioshin 19:06, 27 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually meant the last part as a joke. It's hard to tell tone via internet, so I apologize for coming off as snippy. Onikage725 21:18, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

NEUTRILITY
At the end of the section about his fight with piccolo it says about his marriage to chi-chi that it brings dragonball to an excellent conclusion this is just an opinion and not fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Unit (talk • contribs).

Abilities
In the abilities section you forgot to mention a few abilities, such as Super Kaio-Ken. The ability to use Kaio-Ken while in SSJ.Which he uses against Pikkon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by KojiDude (talk • contribs).


 * Actually, the Super Kaioken is mentioned under "Kaioken" in the abilities section. It's towards the end.


 * Daishokaioshin 21:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Re-added my comment since it was deleted.


 * Daishokaioshin 21:46, 23 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Majinvegeta 12:17, 4 Sept 2006 (UTC)


 * Super KaioKen is a non-canon technique. I was wondering if it should be in there considering that it was never in the Manga and was only used once in the anime against Pikkon.


 * MajinVegeta 12:17, 4 Sept 2006 (UTC)


 * Some one also incorrectly stated Goku has faster than light speeds, while in fact Goku's speed was never stated in canon DBZ, To say Goku is faster than light is non-canon. Goku also has no invunerabiltiy, Goku has advanced durability but he is not invunerable, lava killed him for example so Goku is still vunerable as a human to certain things. All of Goku's powers are created via his manipulation and projection of Chi, including his strength and durability and speed. His manipulation of chi also puts strain on his body meaning the more chi he projects the more strain is put on his body, Goku also has limits what he can take, i.e some chi attacks can seriously harm him even at full power. Someone messed up the abilities section by stating abilities Goku does'nt even have.

Article Enhancements
Wiki-star 04:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Wiki-star: I would recommend anyone with absolute knowledge of Goku since Dragon Ball, to format this article like the Vegeta, or Buu articles. I cannot do it yet, but i hope someone else would. Thanks!

Failed GA nom
This article was nominated for Good articles status but I've failed for a couple of reasons.


 * Explain Forms and transformations, I've seen the show and I understand it but most readers won't
 * No refs
 * Remove trivia section
 * No in popular culture section
 * Extreme PoV in the lead
 * Stubby sections

Thanks Jaranda wat's sup 20:15, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Add Template:FailedGA at the top? -- ReyBrujo 20:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Stubby sections? What does that refer to?  The saga things?  I'm doing my best to cut them down but I didn't write them and it requires a tonne of reading and re-reading to decide whats necessary.  Which is the lead?  Could do with some better discriptions here.  References are the entire series, not much else you can say but that.

There is an article on SUper Saiyans so going in-depth seems pointless, however to use it, the forms and transformations section would need to be re-organised into type rather than order of attainment.Darkwarriorblake 00:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The lead section is the section that should inform the casual user what this article is about. And he is referring to His staggering power, He is generally beloved by all the heroes of the series and especially Goku is regarded as the single most powerful character in the Dragonball Universe. Try to avoid peacock terms. But the main problem is that the article lacks reliable sources. You shouldn't say "He is the most powerful", you need to say "Akira Toriyama, in the Dragon Ball manga, volume 15, page 45, and in the animation, chapter 45 titled "Goku", states that Goku is the most powerful character in the Dragon Ball universe". -- ReyBrujo 00:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I've nominated the article for a GA rank again. I think its worthy now and adequate changes have been made. I haven't followed it in a while but I think I edited the intro well and it seems to be ok, we have a popular culture section now and the transformations have been described better. All links are checked and working as well. Darkwarriorblake 00:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Saga proper noun?
Regarding this change, how is that Saga is a proper noun? Is there an official site stating the name is for a determined number of episodes/chapters is named Freeza Saga? If not, it can be captialized per the guidelines. -- ReyBrujo 00:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The word "saga" in by itself is not a proper noun of course, but the specific name of the saga is (e.g. Cell Saga, Buu Saga) as noted on their articles. Sections such as Techniques and special abilities are not all capitalized because, for one, "special abilities" is not a proper noun. The Buu Saga, for example, is a proper noun because it is the full name of the saga, not the just character.-3bulletproof16 01:14, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Is the official name "Buu Saga", or just a fan made term? Terms like "saga", "story arc", "plot", etc, don't need to be capitalized. Thus, "Buu saga", "Buu story arc", etc. don't need to be capitalized. I won't be reverting, even though I don't agree with fan names. - ReyBrujo 01:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The names are not fan made terms as they are the official naming for the English language series. Please see and look into each article on the sagas.3bulletproof16 01:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I picked four articles, and none had reliable references as to why they have been named "Saga" instead of "saga". Remember that you can't use Wikipedia as source. From what I guess, the people creating the article had no idea about how to give a proper name to the articles. -- ReyBrujo 01:43, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Then perhaps you should request a comment from a third party who is knowledgeable of the series.-3bulletproof16 01:50, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * What would you consider to be a "proper name" then? What we already have with a one-letter case difference? I don't see how that's an improvement over these "improper" names within the article. If you have something better you'd like to suggest then we can discuss it here, and see if it would be best to replace the current concise names with something else. (And if any of that seemed confrontational, snide, or otherwise, that was not my intent. I don't THINK any of what I said was like that, but some people (Wiki-star) take things as insults regardless of whether they are or not, and I'm just trying to cover my bases by posting this disclaimer.)


 * Daishokaioshin 01:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Geez, requesting a comment for this? No need, this is not serious at all, and a discussion between two editors is not enough, as there are many other editors who are active and editing this article. Note that the category is Category:Dragon Ball sagas, not Category:Dragon Ball Sagas (and don't go change it just because I pointed it out ;-)). This matter will jump again if the article tries to become a featured one, so unless that happens, I guess the change isn't that critical. -- ReyBrujo 02:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Robot Chicken
I revised the part about Robot Chicken to indicate that Chibi Goku from DBGT is most likely what 'Gohan' was based on (by the hair and clothes), despite being named Gohan in the sketch. But it was a parody, so it's not meant to be an accurate representation of the characters anyway.--GeneralDuke 23:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've removed it. The episode indicates it's Gohan.  It doesn't matter if fans think it's someone else.  Any speculation that he's Goten/Chibi Goku is just that and shouldn't be included in the article. As you said, it's parody and isn't always accurate. CPitt76 06:46, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The makers of Robot Chicken don't have a solid education on who is who from Dragonball. To them, they all look the same. So it is understandable why they would make Gohan identical to Goku in that Episode. I'm sure it was an honest mistake on their part. Majinvegeta

Dragon Ball Image
This is just referring to the image from the 23rd world martial arts tournament. From March until 23:53 7 June 2006 this image was present and I thought it was a valuable addition. I have not checked on this goku page for some time and noticed that the image has been removed, so I added it once more and it was removed again by a different user at 15:57, 26 June 2006.

Could you please explain why this image is not befitting of such an article? --ZXCVB 21:20, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd guess their reasoning is that the image doesn't really serve any purpose. If anything though, from where it was when I just looked in the history now, it was inside the Dragon Ball Z section.Darkwarriorblake 21:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Diff? User who removed it? Remember that images must be relevant in the context, and that the article needs to reference the image, not the image to the article. -- ReyBrujo 21:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well as a matter of a fact, it was a image supporting the final battle of dragon ball, adjacent to where it is described how piccolo uses a surprise attack on goku, and the image is of that very moment, so I think it is highly relevant. On my computer it looked to be in the dragon ball section certainly, however perhaps there is someone who could make sure it is inside the dragon ball section. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Son_Goku_%28Dragon_Ball%29&oldid=60634710 It could be argued that all images serve no real purpose, the image is from that very fight and is quite dramatic.--ZXCVB 21:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't take it personally. The other images do serve a purpose in letting a reader see what Goku looks like at varying times, as a child, as an adult, in various Super Saiyan forms whilst him being shot through the shoulder does not. However I have nothing against you using that image, you might want to talk to whomever removed it originally. It does however look better in the link you posted than it did before.Darkwarriorblake 21:48, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Do not concern yourself with it, I have not taken anything personally, do not worry, the link that I provided is how I left it, however someone may have altered with it at some point, the image provided a more involving experience for the context of the final dragon ball battle. The article would be somewhat bare if it only had random images of goku, without any images from the actual battles described in the articles themselves. I thought the image provided the viewers with a visual reference to the attack itself, to add to the full experience of the page. I find it rather disconcerting that the image would be removed without any reason given.

The first time it was removed was 23:56, 7 June 2006 by Darkwarriorblake, and the second was 15:57, 26 June 2006 by 3bulletproof16 --ZXCVB 21:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Goku in the End of GT
Goku did DIE in the end of GT, otherwise he wouldn't tell Vegeta to shut up so that Pan wouldn't hear that he is dead. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense, why he would leave his family etc. just for one wish? The last episode all hints that Goku is dead. It should be included in the wikipedia entry. Of course, this is from the Japanese Version, don't know how the dub handled it.

When people die, they die. They don't stand around and talk. He didn't want to let Pan know that he was leaving. He didn't die. He fused with the Dragon Balls(Though I have no idea what the point of that was). Nemu 19:40, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, Piccolo is dead and still talks. You fail. He did die,otherwise there was no reason to leave.


 * Nemu OBVIOUSLY meant that people do not remain in the living world and talk when they die. Talking in the Afterlife, or being allowed to RETURN to the living world are not what are being discussed here. Nemu does not "fail". The reason why Goku was taken with Shenlong was never explained adequately, but presumably the reason is that Goku displayed the ability to merge with the Dragon Balls previously when he swallowed the 4 Star Ball and his positive energy eliminated Ii Shenron's negative energy. In order to keep the Dragon Balls safe, it was required that Goku fuse with all of the Dragon Balls and be taken elsewhere, so that the Dragon Balls couldn't be abused further. He didn't necessarilly die just because he was removed from the living world. Gohan didn't die when he was taken to the Kaioshin Kai in the Afterlife, after all. Try thinking things through.


 * Daishokaioshin 23:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont think that Goku died... Because why would he say goodbye to Piccolo?? If Goku dies he could just as easily visit Piccolo in Hell as he has gone down to hell so many times. I think that in some way Goku became like a guardian spirit of Earth appearing whenever people need his help. Just like the dragon ball dragon who only appears when he's called. I dont think he goes to the afterlife either. Thats why he walks around on Earth and watches the match. Hes just like a wandering spirit. And long since Gohan and Vegeta have died and gone to the otherworld Goku just remains on Earth. And because if you watch the last episode no one besides Pan really cares that Goku is sitting there. And when hes walking around outside. Before the fight they say Goku Jr. is a descendant of Goku the hero of Earth yet no one notices him? Thats why i think Goku is neither here nor there. Hes not dead but hes not alive either.

Contradiction
The History section calls Raditz a younger AND an older brother. I'd fix it if I could remember which it was.


 * I just read it over and don't see anywhere that Raditz is incorrectly called a younger brother. Could you point to place out to me?


 * Daishokaioshin 11:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

My bad, I looked over it again and it says 'younger brother TO Raditz.' —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.210.123.98 (talk • contribs).

Why don't you reword it? I mad the same mistake and was gonna change it, until I realized that it WAS right, just confusing.
 * Majinvegeta 12:24, 4 Sept

New Picture
Can someone find a new picture for the top of the page. Goku only apeared in that outfit in one episode and the orange jumpsuit is a trademark part of his character. I think the image that apears at the top of the page should represent how he looks throughout the majority of the series. I'd do it myself, but I'm too unfamiliar with all the rules and copyright laws.


 * Image:Gokudead2.jpg KojiDude (talk) 02:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC) I couldn't add it because I don't see an image section in the table, and when I added it it screwed up the information. KojiDude (talk) 02:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Man there has to be 10,000 better images out there than that. Gimme till I wake up and I'll find one from my collection.Darkwarriorblake 02:46, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * How about...this one?--KojiDude (talk) 02:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:Goku4.jpg KojiDude (talk) 02:52, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Much better, though mind if i crop it to remove the spaces? so his hair doesn't just disappear.  I tried finding one on my PC but for some reason I only have SSJ3 goku images.  The only non SSJ one I have is him in a white costume >< Darkwarriorblake 02:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Be my guest. KojiDude (talk) 02:58, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:Son Goku (Dragon Ball) photo2.jpg

I don't know how to replace the current one, for some reason when I try, it just creates a smaller version of the current image. Darkwarriorblake 03:04, 19 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It seems like you took out some of the picture's quality as well. I'll crop it for you, and upload it and ect. You just put it on the table. KojiDude (talk) 03:07, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I reduced the quality for file size. It looks like you have to overwrite the current photo for it to appear in the table. The template is bound to the name of the article so it has to be called the same as the current image to appear in the table.


 * I got it to work. =)--KojiDude (talk) 04:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Can't we find a better picture of Goku? I uploaded a full body one of him but I think on the resize it will be too small. I don't like the picture we have of him now, it's one from the crappy animated episodes. :(

-Majinvegeta


 * Image:The Young Goku.jpg How 'bout this cute picture? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dragonball1986 (talk • contribs).

POV?
I was about to remove the following statement in this article: "As a kid again, Son Goku became immature, despite retaining his strength and memories of being an adult" until I remembered Son Goku was kinda immature in DBGT. The line sounds POV to me, but remove it if it is POV. Funnybunny (talk/Counter Vandalism Unit) 22:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That isn't really a point of view. He acted a lot more like he was when he was a child. Maybe it should be changed a little. Nemu 22:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, one more thing. This article was placed on the following category that makes me raise my right eyebrow; Superman pastiches. That sounds like Goku is immitating Superman in some strange way that ridicules Superman. Actually, Goku, along with the entire Dragon Ball series was made in Japan, nearly 3,000 miles away from the United States. Goku is the work of a person who didn't plagiarize another person's work. If you ask me, this sounds like every single superhero in the world should be placed under that category. Funnybunny (talk/Counter Vandalism Unit) 22:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * He has some traits that were probably a tribute to Superman or something like that(such as both of them being the near last of their race sent away from their planet before it exploded). That's why he's there. Nemu 22:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)


 * That's just a coincidence. Toriyama has never confirmed that as far as I know, and Goku is far from being similar to Superman. Goku's character is nothing like Superman's, and they only have two things in common. Are two minor things really enough to give him that catagory? KojiDude (talk) 05:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Funnybunny and KjiDude. If only two minor things make Goku a "Superman Pastiche," I think there'd be many more "Super"heroes in that category. I believe Son Goku should be voted off the Superman Pastiche Island. 65.10.187.240 00:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It does say "intentional similarities to the Man of Steel". I'm pretty sure both of them being sent off from their exploding planets and being found by old people is a tribute. I also recall seeing something about Toriyama being a Superman fan(though, it could be false).Nemu


 * Eh...That still isn't really enough to earn it a spot in that category. KojiDude (talk) 02:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Goku is not a superhero, he is a warrior. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Solid Fox (talk • contribs).

FA?
I read the good article criteria, and it says articles longer than 15kb that get GA should get FA too, so does that mean if this aticle passes for GA it'll be FA instead?--KojiDude (talk) 17:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
 * No. GA is a review by a single user. FA is a review by many. They are saying that big articles should get a Peer review first, and then apply for Featured article, but getting GA doesn't mean it will automatically get FA status. -- ReyBrujo 16:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Failed GA
This article needs a lot, repeat, a lot of work done before it reaches GA status.


 * Well-written: Failed. The prose is borderline passable. Not too many awkward phrases or stops, but it still needs through copyedits. Also, there are not enough interwiki links. Another point is that you start talking about characters without introducing them or explaining who they are (e.g. Frieza, for one). You need to carefully explain every new concept and person in the article, or link to the appropriate page. Also, the article is not divided properly. The Dragon Ball section is a jumble; all we need there is a quick summation of important events, not a scene-by-scene of every episode. The Z and GT articles are divided up well, but check them too for this. Goku's "History" and "Appearance" should be combined, and better explained.


 * Referenced: Failed. You have none. Referencing episodes is a must, and you should also cite interviews and probably the official site. This is the biggest problem, too big to be covered here.


 * Broad coverage: Failed. The "In popular culture" section is unneeded, and Goku's list of abilities should be a different article. Instead, list only his signature or important abilities. "Forms" is alright.


 * Neutral: Failed. Often you emphasize Goku's caring nature and forgiveness toward his enemies. You need to cite the creator's opinion and critics' opinions on this, and not insert your own. This is orginal research.


 * Stable: Passed.


 * Images: Failed. Some images do not have fair use rationales, and others need a written source, not just a link there. It would be wise to include a fuller picture of Goku, and one of his alternate costumes in the "Appearance" section. Otherwise, the images do illustrate important points very well.

Overall, this needs a lot of work, so good luck. -Dark Kubrick 21:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Images: Only one Image had that problem, but I agree with you on the pic for the Appearence section.


 * Broad Coverage: I agree with cutting a few of the abilities, but the In popular culture section? Why remove it? It's information about the character, which is what an article in an encyclopedia is for.


 * Referenced: I agree with everything except the part about the official site (I've been there, it's realllllly un-informative).


 * Well Written: That would be expanding on an already monsterously long article. Few readers would want to take the time to read the whole article as it is.


 * Neutral: Definitly siding with you on that one.

But, this is just what I think. If the changes you listed are imperative for GA then I guess I can't really disapprove of them.-- Koji Dude  21:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Zero.
When was Goku ever refered to as "Zero"? Is that from when Harmony was doing the dub? Did the Zero name stand for the Z at the end of Dragonball Z? --suit-n-tie 06:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

The name 'Zero' was used for the Dragon Ball dub. Considering the dub was in the late eighties, when Dragon Ball Z hadn't aired yet. 66.222.198.50 06:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Was that the old dubbed one from that Harmony, with the names similar to those in that Dragon Power game? --suit-n-tie 06:22, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Referenced?
How is it not referenced? All that information is taken from the anime, manga or daizenshuu.-- Koji Dude  16:39, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe that we should try to take more from the Manga and Daizenshuu, those are the most solidly accurate. The Anime is only partly accurate in terms of Super Saiyan auras (Toei completely messed up on some) and secondary Histories (e.g. In one episode, they said that the Dragonballs were once united in one Dragonball). Plotholes are constantly in the Anime, I think it would be wiser to use Manga Chapters and quotes. Another example: in the manga Goku's Super Saiyan powerlevel is placed at around 145,000,000 (Official Daizenshuu record) while the Anime only places it at 12,000,000. I believe that Daizenshuu and Manga should be our primary references if this article is to make GA.

Majinvegeta 12:29, 4 September 2006

Techniques and special abilities
Could we put that section under its own article and link it from here and vice versa? 74.225.76.172 21:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, what about forms and transformations? 74.225.76.172 21:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Choke.
In the uncanonical GT why the hell did Goku swallow the four star ball?--suit-n-tie 04:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Because he didn't want the dragon to absorb all seven. The talk is for discussion of the article, not the series. Nemu 16:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

seperate
Should Gogeta be seperated from Vegetto since this fusion is uncanonical?-- Suit-n-ti e  19:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think so. They're both Fusions used. It's mentioned in the article for Gogeta that it is from one of the movies, and thus isn't canonical, because it doesn't fit into the timeline of the series in any way. It should be fine to leave it how it is.


 * Daishokaioshin 19:21, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Manga-wise, yes it is Non-canon. Gogeta was never part of the original series, (unless you are talking about GT, which is in question to be cannon or not)


 * MajinVegeta

Superhero?
I notice that Goku is categorized in several "superhero" categorize. Does he even classify as a Super hero? Given he does have powers beyond that of a normal person, and uses his powers for good., There arent that many more similarites. For one things, He has not secret identity, does not fight crime or activly seek injustice to fight. For most of the time, he lives a normal life with his family. Not to mention that powers similar to Goku's can be attained by humans in their world. Can Humans in the DC Universe be taught heat vision? I don't think so. I just want to see others opinion on this matter. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Animedude360 (talk • contribs).


 * Yeah. Gohan would fit that category, because of his Great Saiyaman thing, but not Goku. Goku helps people near him if they're in danger, but he doesn't go around looking for crime to fight.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 16:53, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Not all superheroes have secret identities (Fantastic Four, the Jon Stewart Green Lantern, and a huge number of Marvel Heroes since Civil War). And there are numerous super heroes that have no super powers (Batman, Wildcat, Robin), meaning their status "can be attained by humans in their world".  While Goku fighting crime wasn't a focus of the show, I don't think that has to be the deciding factor for what makes a super hero.  Silver Surfer doesn't stop bank robberies on a daily basis either, but he's still a superhero.  CPitt76 14:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Goku doesn't do superhero things. He just wants to fight. He only saves those that are already there, or something.-- Suit-n -ti  e  02:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * A superhero is somone who devotes their life to saving lives and seeking out crime to stop. Goku just fights powerful opponents when he sees them, and saves the innocent if he happens to be near when they're in toruble. He basically does two things: 1) Eats 2) Fights for fun. (Hardly sounds like a superhero to me)-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 02:36, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Goku usually just ends up somewhere that happens to be where the bad guys are coming.-- Suit-n -ti  e  03:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Again, heroes like Silver Surfer and Spawn don't necessarily fit those descriptions either, and they save innocents if they happen to be near them when they're in trouble, but we still consider them super heroes. I could make the same argument for Hulk, depending on who's writing him.  CPitt76 02:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You've seen Dragon Ball/Z/GT? He's not a superhero. Stop claiming he is.-- Suit-n -ti  e  03:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not a very debate-like argument to jsut claim he isnt without backing it up. CPitt birngs up some good points. In many ways Goku could be considered a Superhero. I jsut wanted toehrs opinions, not a flame war. (04:07, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, I've seen Dragon Ball, DBZ and DBGT, Suit. And I've provided several examples to support my argument, unlike your las post.  Another point, Wikipedia defines superhero as "A fictional character who is noted for feats of courage and nobility, who usually possesses abilities beyond those of normal human beings.".  Sounds like Goku to me.  CPitt76 02:33, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You can't change my thoughts one bit, but, if that's how Wikipedia defines a superhero, I can't argue. Though, in my opinion, he's not. Well, Whatever. I'm done.-- Suit-n -ti  e Suit's Talk 04:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Primary references
I think it would be wise to not use Anime or English Dub as a primary reference in this article. The original context of Goku's History is the Manga and the official Dragonball reference books are the Daizenshuus, but no one seems to be using them for reference, and I believe it would be wise if we try to use the Japanese Terms while stating such things in the Article (e.g Tenkaichi Budokai- People have resorted to using "World Martial Arts Tournament" and Hyperbolic Time Chamber for the Room of Spirit and Time). Just a thought, or else I don't believe that this article will ever get a good review. :(

-MajinVegeta


 * I agree, but I think this will be difficult as (I would guess) a majority of people in the US haven't seen the manga, just the anime. Vegeta, if you have access to the info and want to make the change, I'd be in favor of it.  I'd include the anime version parenthetically after just to avoid confusion [like Room of Spirit and Time (Hyperbolic Time Chamber)].  CPitt76 02:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Thankyou for agreeing, and the problem with the Anime is that there are many plotholes and inconsistancies, and even filler episodes that simply don't make sense. The manga is the best way to get accurate information out. So people, go to your local book store and buy those Mangas!

-MajinVegeta

Seperate History section
To shorten the article a bit, we could seperate the History section from this article, but leave "Behind the childhood" and "Behind the hero" sections on this article. The history section can have its own article, and link that article from this article, just like the case of the 2005 Atlantic hurricane season. The history article can be named "History of Son Goku" or some sort. Also, the sections named "Dragon Ball," "Dragon Ball Z," and "Dragon Ball GT" should belong under the "History" section, so those sections should be split and merged into the new "History of Son Goku" article. SGFF 00:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's really a productive idea. I would say to reduce the sections to the bare essentials, and link to the saga articles. Nemu 00:22, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, your idea is much better than mine, since yours is more sensical. With your idea, we wouldn't have to make a new article that completely duplicates other Dragon Ball Z/GT saga articles. The new article I just proposed would be senseless and useless since other articles of its kind already exist. Good idea! But we should wait for other people's ideas as well before we implement this. SGFF 00:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with Nemu, however, I would also like to see more interest in improving the Son Goku Jr. article as well. -- bullet proof  3:16 01:50, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, i've reduced the Saiyan Saga section of the Dragon Ball Z section and linked it to the Vegeta Saga. What do you guys think? SGFF 01:40, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I guess I'm the only one who noticed, but... three problems.
 * 1)The Saga articles are somehow shorter than the history section was
 * 2)The Saga articles are filled with horrible writing and POV
 * 3)The Saga articles contain in-accurate info
 * Somone with every saga of DBZ&DBGT on DVD might wanna do something about that.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 03:02, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Two words: "Manga" and "Daizenshuu", the anime always presents plotholes and errors, The Manga and the Daizenshuu don't.
 * Majinvegeta


 * Hey KojiDude, maybe the stuff I deleted from that section can be used in those Saga articles. You know; everytime I reduce a section on this article, we can move that information to the corresponding Saga articles. Sound good? :) SGFF 21:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Peer review alert!
Attention Dragon Ball experts; Son Goten, an article that is closely related to this article is being Peer Reviewed. Please help out with the peer review by giving your opinions, statements, and most importantly; voice at the review. The peer review's page can be found here. SGFF 01:51, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Grandpa Gohan?
Somebody keeps changing the first Son Gohan to Grandpa Gohan in the "Behind the Childhood" section. Son Gohan (Original) wasn't known as Grandpa Gohan until after Goku's accident. I suggest we keep the Son Gohan statement because of the fact that his real name, and the name that he is known by to the rest of the world is not "Grandpa" Gohan, that is the exclusive name that Goku uses. MajinVegeta

Gogeta and SS4 Gogeta different fusions?
I don't believe that Gogeta and SS4 Gogeta should be considered different fusions. They are the same person, just powered up. We don't consider Gotenks and SS3 Gotenks different Fusions, so why should we with Gogeta? I believe that we should maybe put Fat Gogeta as a different Fusion, because his official name was Veku, not Gogeta and even his attacks were different from Gogeta. Majinvegeta
 * Probable reason: Goku and Vegeta fused together while at SSJ4 form, initially creating the SSJ4 Gogeta. When Goku and Vegeta fused together at their base forms, it created the base form Gogeta, so those can be considered different fusions. S  GF  F  (If  you're  stressed, then count to ten and have a cup of  coffee  with Esperanza.) 23:38, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * But Goten and Trunks fused while at Super Saiyan to make Super Saiyan Gotenks, but we don't consider Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks different fusions.

Majinvegeta

Goku redirect dispute
Just recently, the redirect page (Goku) was redirected to Son Goku, which is a collaboration of other characters named Son Goku. I think it would be most suitable if Goku was redirected to Son Goku (Dragon Ball) instead of Son Goku because most of the articles that link to the Goku redirect page is intended for Son Goku (Dragon Ball) only, not several other characters named Son Goku. Just look at what links to Goku - most (if not all) pages that link to Goku is intended for the Dragon Ball Goku only. S GF  F  (If  you're  stressed, then count to ten and have a cup of  coffee  with Esperanza.) 01:49, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I fixed it.-- Koji Dude  (viva la BAM!) 02:05, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Goku vs Vegeta: Kaioken 3?
Goku used the Kaioken x 4 to push Vegeta's Galic Gun Back. The Galic Gun, like the Kamehameha, increases the users power when performed. Goku and Vegeta were equal when Goku heightened his power to KaioKen 3. That is why he had to boost it to 4. Check the Manga (Volume 4) and even the Episode. It is Kaioken 4, Someone changed it to 3 for some reason.

When did Goku fly for the first time?
In which episode & when did Goku fly for the first time? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gharsh1991 (talk • contribs).
 * Please, talk about the article and not the topic. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 03:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, Goku flew for the first time against Piccolo jr at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. (Dragonball Episode one seventy something [I think it was 179]). He blasted a Kamehameha out of his feet. But I guess you could also consider that he flew when he killed King Piccolo, he used a burst of energy to propell himself through the air at King Piccolo, but it wasn't a constant energy release like the flying technique. Majinvegeta