Talk:Goku/Archive 2

Archive
I archived it. It was way too big.-- Atomic -Super  -Suit What Have I Done?! 01:08, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed
I agree with the notion to split Goku's Dragonball GT adventures into a different article due to the non-canonical nature of Dragonball GT. His adventures from all the movies could be inserted to said article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 4.252.208.18 (talk • contribs).
 * Sounds good to me, I agree, the movies and GT have no place in the canonical series, that is why this article was so long. But then some may argue about GT being canon, and it was decided a while ago that canon and non-canon couldn't be mentioned. To fix this problem, I think it's time that we do a Canon/Non-canon (Anime) Goku article and then maybe do a strictly canon (Manga) Goku article. It is a way to shorten it, and get more accurate info to the less educated readers. Majinvegeta
 * This discussion happened already. It's in the archives, I believe a consensus has already been reached so this is a bit of the same thing as was discussed in the archive.-- A S  N  T Contributions 00:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Disagree - We don't need a separate article for what is essentially the same character (regardless of whether the work is canon or not). What we need is merely cut down all the fancruft and rehashed plot summary of this article and NOT DESCRIBE EVERY SINGLE THING HE DOES IN THE SERIES, just the basics. Also, we don't need a section on the After-Life Tournament, since that was an even bigger filler than DBGT. Jonny2x4 00:19, 27 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. Just because you guys up top feel that GT is non canon does not make it. I don't see who made you the canonical experts. So Goku's adventures is GT is to remain in his article. Also remember it is a sequel to Dragonball not a filler. But the After-world Tournament should stay too since it is part of the Dragonball Z Anime. SSD4 10:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Disagree- The same reasons as Johnny2x459.100.130.153 06:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Strongly Dissagree- Its the same guy! we shouldn't diffrent articals just for diffrent points in his life--Crypto 138 16:42, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Agree- Mixing canon and non-canon material is a good way to get confused when trying to learn about the character because certain things will continue to NOT add-up. A separate article for Movie/GT Goku (and every other character) is strongly needed. It will keep said articles looking neat and organized. The preseding unsigned coment was added by user 4.254.70.101

There is no point in doing it anymore the article was cleaned up and it doesn't take that much space, besides it is the same character whenever GT is cannon or not, also please sing your posts-Dark Dragon Flame 01:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Well several of the comic book characters have separate pages for the same character. Superman has at least three atricles that I'm aware of. Four if you count the Clark Kent article. Mixing the canon and non-canon Dragon Ball info is very unencyclopedic and creates a bit of a scrambled mess of contradictions with the characters' stories.

As much as it sucks, GT is canonical.Darkwarriorblake 16:19, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Many fans argue the canon nature of GT. The Dragon Ball article was apparently split between the manga and anime to cite differences. I don't see why splitting the Goku page up would be any different, but instead of calling it "separating canon and non-canon plot points," just create a manga and anime version. The anime characters apparently had many more things to do than the manga versions as the movies and GT must be included to their stories as well.


 * Why would he need two articles? That doesn't make sense SU IT  42 03:45, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Why does Superman need 3 articles? That doesn't make any sense, but he still has them. But the point is to not mix up information with the character. Goku doesn't need a new article, but rather the article should be reworded to distinguish manga and anime information like the Super Saiyan article was.

SON Gohan is Grandpa Gohan's real name
Why do people keep changing it? His real name is NOT "Grandpa". That is a TITLE that only Goku uses. We need to use the character's real names, if we can call Grandpa Gohan "Grandpa" when speaking about him in technical terms, I guess we can call the entire article "Clown" (Vegeta reference). I'm changing it back. Majinvegeta
 * It's to distinguish one from the other. Stop changing it.-- S U  I  T 42 06:49, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Well then if it is to distiguish one from the other, then it wouldn't need the adoptive grandfather in parenthases would we? (Because we've already distiguished the other Son Gohan as Goku's son, in fact, that one only says Gohan not Son Gohan) Majinvegeta
 * We do need it in parenteses to show he's the adoptive grandfather, not his biological grandfather.-- S U  I  T 42 00:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I partially agree with you, it's just the only person who officially referrs to him as "Grandpa" Gohan is Goku, no one else. And If we were speaking AS Goku, I think that would justify your logic as keeping it "Grandpa" Gohan. I will leave it alone for now, until we and others reach an agreement on this issue. Majinvegeta
 * There's already an answer in my talk page, as I, like you, once said he should be noted as Son Gohan. Read it if you want as Sasuke-kun27 explained it better than I can.-- S U  I  T 42 00:46, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * There's a discussion going on at the Talk:Grandpa Gohan page. I suggest we move it there for now. (Plus, I'm not really that good at explaining things...) -- Sasuk e  -kun  27
 * Well you explained it better than I would have.-- S U  I  T 42 00:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Son Goku's Height
What is Son Goku's height? I previously read on the same page that his height was 5 feet 7 inches. This height is also stated on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegeta#Appearance (where they compare his height with Vegeta's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Owen kang (talk • contribs)

SonGoku and Sonson
At the first season of the anime Dragon Ball, SonGoku had a flying cloud, a monkey's tail, a pole as his weapon and could turn himself in a giant monkey, just like Sonson, from Marvel vs. Capcom 2. Is this a mere coincidence?


 * No. -- SUI T What!? 42 23:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree with Suit, both characters are parodies of the original character named SON GOKU, (Sun Wukong in the original version of the Story) a monkey king of the Japanese legend: Journey to the West. It explains a monkey King who travels to the west searching for the seven "dragon pearls". From the Manga and Anime Saiyuki, there is also a "Son Goku", who is directly based off of the "Journey to the West" Son Goku. Son Goku (from Journey to the west), is pure of heart, rides a cloud, carries a staff, and turns into a monkey when his protective head band is removed. Sound familiar? Majinvegeta


 * It's actually a Chinese legend. See Journey to the West.  Also, Majinvegeta, your wikilink above would redirect to Sun Wukong (no capital K). --Geopgeop 12:28, 19 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I did know that, but on whatever article I looked at to get this info, it says it's a Japanese novel, That's where I got that from.....hmmmm, guess someone outta change that :D Majinvegeta

Change what?-- SU IT  18:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Change the info on the article I got it from, cuz that's what it says. Majinvegeta

Which article, Sun Wukong or Journey to the West?-- SU IT  00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Thank you all for answer my question about Goku and Sonson! Excuse me if the question has nothing to do with the article!Brazilian Man 10:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Image
The image we have here kinda... er... sucks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.7.73.161 (talk • contribs).
 * I agree. But finding a pic that everyone likes is hard. Majin Vegeta

Which image, you're being kinda vague.-- SU IT  07:02, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I think he (or she) was talking about the picture inside the table at the top of the page. I agree with this person, it's not a very good picture of Goku, I'm attempting to upload another. Majin Vegeta

....I changed the picture, hopefully people like it. :) Majin Vegeta


 * No copyright status, so it'll be deleted in a while.-- SU IT  08:04, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, can you upload another one then? ...Because apparently people don't think it's a good picture of Goku. In my opinion, not enough of his head is shown to give people a good look at him. Majin Vegeta

Plot tag
Why's that there? It was decided in the archives that the article be split up.-- SU IT  07:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I added it. Personally I don't see any reason to split Goku's role in Dragon Ball GT into a separate article. It's ridiculous to have a separate article for what is essentially the same character. You don't see Palpatine's actions in Clone Wars as merit of its own article. There's a good reason why this article failled its Good Article nomitation. What we need to do is reduce all the rehashed plot summary and merely focus on Goku's evolution as a character (from being Sun Wukong pastiche to an Earth-raised alien to ghost and back to being alive), rather than every actions he does. I recommend reading Manual of Style (writing about fiction) to learn how to write a good fictional article. Jonny2x4 03:16, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I completely agree with Jonny2x4 above. I'd take a whack at chopping it down, but good gravy is that summary long. And I'm afraid that if I did take the hatchet to it like it needs (and I mean total rewrite, making it about 1/4 its current length), everything I excise would just wander back in the next time another enthusiastic DB/Z fan got the itch -- kind of the curse of all popular Wikipedia pages. But I think any summary should stick only to who Goku was during the different periods of the story and what his roles were. It shouldn't be written in chronological order either -- which is to say it shouldn't begin with Bardock and the destruction of Planet Vegeta -- but rather in the order that Toriyama "discovered" the story. That's because when he decided to upgrade Goku into an alien, it was a major break with his initial vision for the character. Therefore early Goku should be considered as he was written; a weirdly strong kid with a monkey tail, a lust for fair but challenging fights, and a problem with moonlight. He wasn't yet an extraterrastrial in Toriyama's mind at that point.

So, what I see this section needing is four major subsections, based on the canon manga:
 * Monkey boy to hero -- Kid Goku's introduction, early adventures and training.
 * Hero to superhero to alien -- Goku's growth into the mightiest being on Earth, and the introduction of the Saiyan backstory.
 * Alien to super alien -- Goku as alien messiah, surpassing Frieza to become strongest in universe, inspiring other Saiyans to go super and beyond.
 * Guardian angel -- Goku as angel watching over and inspiring his friends, then his resurrection near end of the Buu arc.

Then an entirely separate but brief section, only a couple paragraphs long, dealing with all the variations in the anime, including the movies and GT.

Anyhow, that's what I'd do. --Boradis 00:41, 6 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not very good titles, though.-- SU IT  21:29, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Do you have anything useful to contribute? --Boradis 18:48, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking we should just delete the whole section and write five to eight paragraphs that fully sum up DB/Z/GT. Seeing as he's the main character, retelling his full story is basically just retelling the plot. Nemu 19:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * That sounds good to me. Or we could imitate the structure of a well-constructed article about a fictional character, for instance the first six sections of the Sherlock Holmes page. --Boradis 18:36, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Forms and Transformations
What the hell happened to the Goku article section Forms and Transformations? It was quite useful so there was no point in deleting the whole section. Maybe somebody can retrive the article and put it back in its right place or just make a new article of it. Johnny542 03:39, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Fixed. Apparently people decided just to remove some vandalism, rather than revert it.


 * Daishokaioshin 03:49, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks a lot. Johnny542 23:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Summarize the whole series?
Let's face it, Son Goku is the protagonist of every aspect of the series except the Garlic Jr. Saga and all three TV movies. The article we have is too long, I propose taking an axe to some of this unnecessary summary. A good article talks about Goku from an out-of-universe standpoint, which we only do to a very limited extent. Anyone have any opposition to this? (Instead, I'd write more on his heroic qualities, his similarities with Sun Wukong, Tongpoo, and Dragon Boy, how the character has affected popular culture, etc.) Thoughts? JRP 04:24, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * This has been mentioned above-- SU IT  04:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I think we can also fuse the "TV" section to "in Popular Culture" (it even mentions something that's on the latter section and it would be more comprehensible), I favor summarizing the section but it will require a consensus and we everyone with enought DB knowledge working together, now if we can pull that together we can make this article a lot more simple for the casual reader to understand, and keep it without dividing it-Dark Dragon Flame 20 December 2006

I think we should just have a few paragraphs (or less) regarding Goku's involvement, and just have a link to the proper story arc page for more info. 66.222.198.50 21:01, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Oops, that last comment was mine VelocityEX 21:02, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

In need of protection
I strongly suggest that this page must be protected imediatly, recently from 21 december to 23 December a lot of vandalism has occured on this page, first an idiot using his IP adress deleted the whole article and wrote a single line that read "Goku is sorry" this was reverted by the anti-vandal bot, second someone went ahead and deleted all references of Goku's age in the Dragon Ball section, then he wrote on the text of the Kid Goku image that he was five, after that the anti-vandal bot reverted some of the damage but they kept coming, someone thought it would be funny to write Goshin on every mention of Goku's name, they have removed the image too, also they are messing with the headlines, among other things,I propose at least partial protection, if anyone has an objection please reply to this, please share your thoughts-User:Dark Dragon Flame 23 December 2006

Canon and noncanon
I know that we've had this issue before about canon and non canon, but I propose a solution: How about "manga series" and "anime series" or something. (eg: Goku reaches Giji Super Saiyan (anime series only) during his fight with Lord Slug in Dragon Ball Z: Movie 4) Blah, blah blah. I agree this article is WAY too long, a SIMPLE summary of the main things that Goku does in the saga or movie would be fine, then the people that want to know more about it can click on the link to the Saga's main articles. I think that would be much better and easier to read then reading about (eg) how Gohan fights buu, which has nothing to do with Goku by the way. Majin Vegeta

Angry Kamehameha
Why was the Angry Kamehameha removed from Goku's move list? Because it was named for the BT2 game? It is still a move used in the anime and manga. A move that defeated Frieza on Namek. Just because it was named in the BT2 game should not stop it from being put on this article. Heat P 07:11, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I will have to agree with you on this one, he did used an one hand kamehameha aganist Frieza and not a generic Ki blast as he sugested, it should be added especially now that such a great job has been done in shortening the article-Dark Dragon Flame 07:23, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's just a Kamehameha launched from one hand.-- SU IT  07:24, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, but we have lots of simmilar moves, like warp Kamehameha, a common Kamehameha preceded by a instant transmision or father-son Kamehameha wich is basically the same thing as angry Kamehameha it doesn't really take more than a line so why not?-Dark Dragon Flame 07:32, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It's mentioned, though not by name: "In some instances, Goku has launched the Kamehameha with one hand"-- SU IT  07:47, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually you are right, maybe adding a line there that says "In Budokai: Tekaichi 2 this is known as Angry Kamehameha" might do-Dark Dragon Flame 08:15, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Seems like a good idea-- SU IT  08:16, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I just added it-Dark Dragon Flame 08:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Nice job on adding it back. Heat P 12:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Split Tag
Well since the whole page has been cleaned up by User Majinvegeta, and it's now a lot more shorter and comprehensible it seems there is no point in keeping it, right?-Dark Dragon Flame 23:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, it gets frustrating seeing that you've tried to shorten the article, and it still isn't short enough. --Majinvegeta 14:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The character's height
There has been extensive edit warring about this character's height over the past two days, during which no one has attempted to start a meaningful discussion or volunteered the source of their information. Both sides need to remember that verifiability is a central, non-negotiable policy of our project. Accordingly, I have removed the height statistic from the article altogether. If, after a couple of days' discussion, the editors can come to a consensus on this talk page, then by all means, re-add the statistic with a citation to a reliable source. ×Meegs 00:55, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

The DBZ Daizenshuu states that Goku's height is 5'7 that's the only existing official source that I know of-Dark Dragon Flame 02:31, 4 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, 5'7" is what the Daizenshuu states. No other height should be on there unless it can be verified by official documentation, and no, English Dub doesn't count as official. If someone can present some different offical material, by all means, please do. I re-added his height to the article, because it is what it is according to the Daizenshuu (official Dragon Ball guide) Majin Vegeta


 * Absolutely agree that it is 5'7", what the Daizenshu says, no question. Frankly I don't think there's any more discussion to be had -- set it back to 5'7", and warn the user who keeps trying to change it. --Boradis 06:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

what about the character weigth?

Article Cleanup
Recently, Dark Dragon Flame and myself have done a serious clean up of this article, but it still needs work, please contribute all ideas for clean up and erase anything you feel is irrelevent to Goku (but so that the article still makes sense). This article is about Goku, not the sagas he is present in, that was the issue before and that was the reason why it was so long, I added links to the sagas main articles, those go into details about Goku's relevence and other things that are major subjects in the sagas. Thanks again, and feel free to contribute ideas or erase irrelevent information. Majin Vegeta 23:14, 3 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Nice job you two. I like the way you cleaned up the article and with Boradis help fix the spelling. Nice work guys and gals. I know you think the article is still long but so is Goku's story so there really is no real way to shorten the article without leaving the leaving out the important info. The only thing that I am still concern with is the japanese naming of things around the article. I am not saying I don't agree with it or I don't like it but for the Funimation watchers at less next to the first japanese word in the article put the engish or dub listing of the word in like you did with the androids, but other then that great job people.
 * Heat P 08:32, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Majinvegeta, PLEASE, please check your spelling
I went through the first half of this long article today with a fine-toothed comb and a spell-checker, correcting a lot of minor errors. And now I see that you've done numerous further "cleanup" edits that have inserted many, many, more misspelled words, typos and grammatical errors. I applaud your effort at shortening and summarizing the article, but nearly every single one of your edits since my cleanup has inserted numerous NEW errors that could be avoided with a spelling checker. Please, for the sake of those who care about spelling, be more careful. I'll try to clean up this new batch, but I don't want to have to do it a third time. --Boradis 07:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, at least it's shorter. The spelling can be fixed easily, no big deal. I do this stuff quickly because I'm usually trimming up to 3 other articles at the same time. There's so much crap in this article that needs to be linked to main articles or trimmed down, sorry for the inconvinience. I'll be more careful next time. Majin Vegeta
 * Thank you, thank you. Though fixing the spelling can be more of a headache than you might think, considering all the Japanese words, the constant creep of FUNimation terms popping up, and the unique names of most of the characters (and I don't just mean Krillin/Kuririn but also Kurririn/Kuririn). It's a lot to keep track of and fix. You know, I compose and edit in a word processor and then paste it back into Wikipedia. Just a thought. But thanks again. --Boradis 23:23, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions
Here's a few importants aspects that should be covered in the article.


 * Goku's early designs and creation and how TongPoo, Dragon Boy and the real Son Goku influenced the character. Perhaps include a comparison picture of all three Toriyama characters.


 * His growth into an adult by the end of Dragon Ball, his new Saiyan origins in DBZ and the Super Saiyan transformation.


 * Toriyama's decision to retire Goku and impose Gohan as the protagonist, the relative unpopularity of Gohan compared to Goku and the eventual decision to bring him back.


 * The end of the Dragon Ball manga and Toei Animation's decision to continue the anime as Dragon Ball GT and turn Goku back into a child.

It isn't really that hard. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of Toriyama interviews commenting about the character that could be used as references other than the fiction itself. Jonny2x4 22:35, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually some of these aspects are available in other related pages, the Super Saiyan tranformation was edited out because it has it's own page. Toriyama's desision fits more with the DBZ page than this one since this is strictly about the character itself. And Toei's choice also fits in the DBGT article. About his origins that can be added if everyone agrees it's useful-Dark Dragon Flame 22:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Agree, to add all this stuff that you've suggested would only make the article longer. Much of that stuff was removed because it made the article a mess and WAY too long. --Majinvegeta 14:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Odd line in 'Appearances in other Media/Videogames'

 * "He was also in a non-canon saga "Beautiful Treachery" where he meets Zarbon."

Does this refer to some specific videogame? Or what, exactly? --DesireCampbell 03:35, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's a saga in DBZ:BT2. Just needs to be worded differently, or something-- SU IT  42 03:44, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Does it need to be added in at all? It refers to a specific level of a videogame - just seems a bit overly specific to me. --DesireCampbell 03:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah actually the Budokai series has lots of these twisted sagas, I don't think it's worthy of mention here-Dark Dragon Flame 00:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Buu strength
The quick and dirty: "super" Buu who had absorbed Piccolo, Trunks, and Goten, was so strong that "mystic" Gohan and Goku felt they could only defeat him through fusion. When Gohan is then absorbed, Buu becomes stronger. Goku still believes that fusion is necessary, even with Vegeta now back on Earth. When Buu reverts to "kid" Buu, Goku sees no problem in defeating him all by himself. --DesireCampbell 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

That's where youre wrong. Vegeta refuses to fuse with Goku again because he feels he can beat Vegeta and Kid Buu pretty much demolishes them both because of it. I'm not gonna argue about it with yyou lets just leave it that they are of equal strenth --Wrestlinglover420 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok here it is, Super Buu is actually more powerful than Kid Buu, however Super Buu had some sort of self control something Kid Buu didn't have thus he is by far Buu's most dangeous transformation. Kid Buu is about the same streght as SSJ3 Goku when the fight began but since SSJ3 consumes so much energy and Buu has unlimited power the difference is noted as the fight progreses, thus the reason he beats Goku so badly-Dark Dragon Flame 00:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well the article works now --Wrestlinglover420 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I just removed the whole mention of a power change. The whole article needs to hit the chopping block as it is - but I can't let the idea that Buu is strongest when he's pure perpetuate. It's incorrect information. --DesireCampbell 03:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

DesireCampbell is right, Super Buu just didn't blew earth right away because he wanted to play around with the Z fighters, besides if he blew earth he would be stuck in space since he didn't knew Instant Trasmision something Kid Buu didn't had to care about since he had the ability to do this, besides Kid Buu just did it because he was insane. The misconception that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu just because he destroyed a few planets is as wrong as comparing USS with SSJ2. And since this is something that some people will debate it shouldn't be included there-Dark Dragon Flame 03:38, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I somewhat agree with you the Super Buu with the Saiyan and Namek mix is stronger but something many people overlook is in the manga and Japanese anime Goku state that Buu while changing into Kid Buu was getting stronger instead of weaker as Vegeta and himself thought would happen when they pulled the young Saiyans, Piccolo and Mr. Buu out. Funimation even state this but as both Vegeta and Goku make a comment on it. If you don't believe watch the episode in japanese and the Funimation dub. Now I am not disgreeing with you, just something you guy may need to see and hear before stating it in the article if some feels they must do. Daizenshuu states that Super Buu is the strongest but from what the anime and manga Kid Buu is. So it's kind of hard to actually say or state this as the guide book contradicts the anime and manga.
 * Heat P 19:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll stick with what the Daizenshuu says, however I must agree and have no doubt that if he lived more he would have passed Super Buu since his strenght was fueled by his madness and that only kept increassing-Dark Dragon Flame 20:34, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Ya I agree with that. Just something I thought you guys should know. Heat P 23:49, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

in my opinion it should be mention that Vegeta and Goku can not defeat Buu mostly for his ability to regenerate.

Saiyan/Vegeta
Who thinks that the saiyan saga should say the saiyan/vegeta saga? because it is --Wrestlinglover420 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's just Vegeta Saga.-- SU IT  42 23:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The Toei saga name is 'Saiyan' saga, the original Funimation name was also 'Saiyan' saga, but they have since changed it to the 'Vegeta' saga. To keep in mind: I, frankly, couldn't care less right now - just wanted everyone to have all the realivant info--DesireCampbell 23:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The original saga naming structure is simple 'Saiyan', 'Freeza', 'Cell', 'Majin Buu'.
 * Funimation split up every saga after the 'Saiyan' saga into smaller units (a total of sixteen sagas for DBZ alone).
 * This article, and all other related articles, are about Dragon Ball, they are not about Funimation's newest version of Dragon Ball.


 * I think putting it as Saiyan/Vegeta Saga is more correct, that way people that know the saga by Saiyan can recognize it and vice versa. The name had indeed changed from Saiyan to Vegeta, but take into account that many people haven't learned that and it has happened long after the TV runs and the manga releases. Overall, I think Saiyan/Vegeta is the best. It doesn't hurt to have 6 extra letters in the article to save a lot of time for people who might get confused. Hucz 06:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Agreed--Wrestlinglover420 18:32, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment about Funi's website being wrong

 * "(although on the Funimation official english site it incorrectly states Goku is eight years old)"

Yeah, Funi's websites for teh Dragon Ball series are terrible. Check out the description for Android 16:
 * " Created by the evil Genius Dr. Gero, Androids 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 are out to destroy our heroes on Earth. These Androids have amazing strength and enjoy devastation for its sake. The strong, silent type, Android 16 is an experimental model and is out to destroy whatever he sees.
 * After meeting his demise at the hands of Cell, Bulma collects the pieces of Android 16 and reprograms him to fight on the good side. "

Yeah. Whoever edited the page was right - but it's unnecessary information. We can't add every piece of incorrect information Funi has added. We just give accurate information, and hope for the best. --DesireCampbell 23:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Don't Panic
I will be cutting down the 'History' section considerably tonight. I expect this to be met with some criticism, so I am adding this not prior to editing, and will make the entire cut in one edit.

My reasoning is as follows:
 * The 'History' section is extremely long, and while it gives great background information about the character, such information is not centric to the scope of the article.
 * There are already articles that go over the plot in detail, there's no need for the same information to be repeated en masse for every character page.
 * I will be including appropriate links to the main saga summaries, so interested parties can read further.

Comments or complaints should be noted here before reverts. Thanks You --DesireCampbell 03:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

By all means, Go ahead! :)Majinvegeta 14:27, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Ya do what need to been done to fix it. I am all for it. Heat P 19:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

when Goku shrink down from Oozaru you wrote to his "regular size" it should say to his adult size because his regular size at the moment is Chibi Goku.

A problem
I saw the name of Goku '孫悟空' was labelled in Japanese? I edited it and called it Kanji/Chinese because that is exactly what it is, its not 100% Japanese. It might be hard for some people to recognize but my language has hanji (Korean from Chinese) so I know which is which. ( Seong0980 02:46, 31 January 2007 (UTC) )
 * Hmm... I replied to you here before I saw this. –Gunslinger47 03:59, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Cool thanks! ( Seong0980 04:38, 31 January 2007 (UTC) )

Too Long
I've noticed that the Son Goku article has been trimmed very well recently, but do we need the "Behind the Child" and "Behind the Hero" sections? They seem very unnecessary, repeat information already covered in the individual sagas, and over all just weigh the article down. I say they should be removed. Deus Z 22:47, 31 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I may not be a regular editor here (frankly, the size of the page and the amount of information on Son Goku that needs to be weighed for inclusion intimidates me) but I agree. Looking over those two sections, I think they should just be deleted outright, as everything Deus Z says appears to be true. Brevity is best, and Dragon Ball as a subject on Wikipedia is prone to peacock terms and fancruft. Those demons need to be dealt with mercilessly. --Boradis 00:03, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Do you see Superman article? This article should be at least a little more complete in his imformation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ykkifenix (talk • contribs).

Improvements!

 * First off this article needs more pictures, some articles half this long have more pictures than this! Also why is the Main image allways being changed?

DBZROCKS 23:42, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article needs more pictures. But as you can see by the two banners at the top of the article page, the actual content needs a huge overhaul before we worry about aesthetics. Deus Z 07:46, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
 * True the content needs overhaul but pictures are part of it too, personally I find long articles with few pictures hard on the eyes DBZROCKS 02:03, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In the part when said goku train in intense Gravity, Why don´t put 100 times the gravity of earth?, that Show how powerfull he is and is Canon. Then in the part of the Kamehame ha you repeat 2 times that he learned from master roshi, and you should put the variations, just name them, i know there is a link that explain more details of this atack, because this is he most powerful regular atack, The Genkidama is a last recurse. Other thing is that in the Full power Super saiyan you should put that he learn to control his super saiyan level as same like his normal level, allowing him to reserve and explode more energy, in this part you mention twice that he train with Gohan, you can cut that. And Finally at least give a little more detail in how often Goku´s power increase,you can say things like doble, triple, multiplicate exponentially, 50 times his base, 100 times his base, of course using the most apropiate sources posible, making this to short doesnt necesarily make it better, just check Superman page and you will know what i mean


 * That's the exact stuff that we are trying to avoid. Too much specific and detailed info leads to the article being jumbled and painfully long. I've seriously considered cutting the article down even more then we have. I think that a very rough explaination of what happens in each saga as relating directly to Goku is sufficient.--Majinvegeta 07:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Movies
I just wish everyone would stop deleting the movie section, because it is true and Goku did face them (well, expect Bojack]]. SuperSaiyan Crash 19:56, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Picture
I honestly think we need a serious picture change on this article, the last one we had was fine, not only that but it was drawn by Toriyama himself and is from the Dragon Ball World Book. This one I believe is horrible, it's difficult to see his individual appearence. I'm uploading another.....I can't stand this picture anymore even though I've tried reverting it numerous times. --Majinvegeta 07:13, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't mind Image:SonGoku.jpg. I prefer it over Image:Gokubody.jpg.  Would it be possible to find a good one from GT (before or after he is a child). –Gunslinger47 07:55, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What about this one? Or this one?-- SU IT  -n-tie 15:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Gunslinger47, I love that one. That was the one on the article when I looked at it the other day, and I think it is especially good because of the fact that it was done by Toriyama himself, and it is part of the Dragon Ball World Guide/Book. SUIT, I love the first one that you posted here, and I think that the second one maybe can be used later in the article. This article I think needs more pictures. Thanks guys, but I think others should see these pics before we make a final decision.--Majinvegeta 19:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed.-- bullet proof  3:16 19:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * What was wrong withImage:Goku003.jpg? I don't care who drew the current picture, it shows Goku standing off-center and it's very low-resolution. Surely there are better pictures than that. Deus Z 03:20, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
 * First off Image:Goku003.jpg was distubing an having a Akira Toriyama Drawn picture makes the article seem closer to the source material.DBZROCKS 01:59, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Disturbing, how? the article should have indeed more pictures and I personally think Toriyama's work be should the one used in the infobox itself --Dark Dragon Flame 20:42, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well in my opinion opening an article to find someone Smiling at you weird isnt exactly wonderful and anywayImage:SonGoku.jpg shows Goku's Trademark Orange Gi instead of Just his head. DBZROCKS 22:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh well either way Akira's job has priority -Dark Dragon Flame 19:50, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * So do you agree we should use Image:SonGoku.jpg? DBZROCKS 22:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Why don't we find a Toriyama drawn one with Goku with his trademark Gi from the Cell/Buu saga? I think most everyone would be happy then. I just feel that since it is Toriyama's creation, why not use more of his artwork? Plus although this is kind of irrelevent, I just think that these Dragon Ball article need more "manga" based stuff instead of anime exclusive stuff (See discussion lower on this page). It gives it a sense of vintage, original source stuff--Majinvegeta 22:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually seeing as the anime is basically the Manga in colored animation using it is more comon I can see throwing in a black in white manga image or two but in my opinion the Anime pictures are better. Its like asking if you want to see a black and white or color movie, color wins DBZROCKS 00:09, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We can use pics from the Dragonball World Book, all drawings by Toriyama, done in color. --Majinvegeta 02:03, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok as long as its in color because I know many people are turned off by black and white manga images DBZROCKS 22:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok then, Majinvegeta will you get the images or should I ask other users for scans? -Dark Dragon Flame 22:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Majinvegeta. The manga differences should be pointed out. This will stop argueaments about what happeaned in the anime or manga. Uglyguy2006

About Goku's height.
I'm sorry, but I think we should talk about Goku's height once more again. I also want to believe Goku's height is about 170cm(5'7") as the Daizenshuu says as above. However, I found an interesting material saying that his height is 175cm. I wouldn't think highly of this if this claim is on a private homepage, but this fact that Goku's height is 175cm is on a Japanese wikipedia site. Because Japan is where Dragonball series were born, I carefully propose that Goku's height could actually be 175cm as this Japanese wikipeia page says. If his height is really 5'7" as the Daizenshuu states, someone must prove that 5'7" in the Daizenshuu is height of not 'growing' Goku, but 'fully-grown' Goku, and the content of the Japanese wikipedia page that Goku's height is 175cm must be retorted. Here's the site that insists Goku's height is 175cm. Besides, we should also consider that Goku's height is similar to Gohan's height. However, our wikipedia page is also saying that Goku's height is not 5'7" but 5'11" and so is gohan. Here's the page. Please do make statements about this. --Hilight 06:44, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia, even the Wikipedias of other languages, aren't good sources for Wikipedia. We all know how unreliable Wikipedia is, as we're constantly struggling to delete or correct new crap. I doubt people who edit the Japanese Wikipedia are much different from people all over the world -- some of them are trustworthy, some aren't. If you don't have any OFFICIAL sources for this information, there's no reason to reopen the subject. The Daizenshu is official, so I say drop it. --Boradis 19:51, 7 February 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, let's admit that wikipedia can be incorrect. However, every Japanese Dragonball site said Goku's height is 175cm. Not even one exception. You keep saying as if only you in the world has the Daizenshuu and I konw you will say that the fact every Japanese DB site says Goku's height is 175cm is NOT OFFICIAL. But don't you think some Japanese homepage makers too(who are greatly interested in Dragonball like you), have the DB Daizenshuu? How come you don't consider the possibility that there might have been an error translating Japanese Daizenshuu to English Daizenshuu? Other users(Majin Vegeta, Dark Dragon Flame) who thought Goku's height is 5'7" as the English Daizenshuu says like you, showed interst and respected my opinion, and agreed to figure this out together. However, you acted as if only you are the 'correct person' and told me to drop this, which made me upset. I'm not trying to bug you as you said to me at my page, but I'm trying to make information about Son Goku more accurate for everyone and this project. In addition, I'm just asking all of you to find this out together. I hope for many replies.--Hilight 22:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Kamehameha Variations
Do we really need all these Kamehameha Variations? A link to the Kamehameha page would better DBZROCKS 13:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree. I think that the original Kamehameha is sufficiant. We could say, "For other variations of the Kamehamaha used by Goku click here" or something, and have it link to the main article. --Majinvegeta 22:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I beleive they should keep the other variations because some people might just be too lasy to check elsewhere((User:MadMonkey/MdamMonkey)) 20:00, 11 Febuary 2007 (UTC)
 * If they're too lazy to click on a link, it's not our fault. Besides, the page is long enogh as it is. // Poetic  Decay  20:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Come on how hard is it to move a mouse half and inch and press a button? We should just add: Main article Kamehameha DBZROCKS 00:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Manga true?
This isn't particular to Goku, but I can't help but be bothered by anime exclusive stuff that is added to the Dragon Ball related articles. Fanboys, no doubt. I was just wondering if we should edit the articles to manga exclusive stuff and then have a separate section that does anime differences, etc. I feel that this is a constant arguement to get this stuff across. I work on other articles that are similar to "manga/anime" situations and this method seems to have worked nicely, everyone is happy and I don't feel like I'm reading inaccurate info. I wanted to discuss it first though. --Majinvegeta 22:00, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * We can't really make them manga exclusive that would drive all anime fanboys to start vandalizing; what I think should be done is make them to be 50/50 half manga half anime, that would save us the trouble of having to deal with fanboys-Dark Dragon Flame 04:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Are there really enough anime exclusive Goku facts to warrant such a thing? I don't recall the anime treating Goku's story any different than in the manga, with the exception of the movies which are already seperate. Deus Z 06:43, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Goku's dialect
I was thinking about mentioning Son Goku's "rustic" dialect he speaks in. I'm wondering where to put it. I also don't want to bother writing about it if it's just going to be deleted. His dialect always seemed to me to be a big part of his character. Evan1975 05:16, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

It is. Feel free to start the section, I'm sure there are many who would love to help out too. --DesireCampbell 21:32, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Golbez04's new images
While I, and I'm sure others appreciate the new images (all similar in style, so as to clearly show the differences between the SSj levels), I would like to bring up a few complaints:

1. The SSj3 image: firstly, it's a mishmash of two images, and thus, isn't fit for encyclopedic inclusion. Secondly, it looks god-awful. Which, among other things, makes Wikipedia look like a joke.

2. There may not be a need to include these images. The same can be said for a lot of the SSj information, as it's already covered in Super Saiyan.

3. While the top image stays in line with the new SSj images, it's really not the best visual description of Goku (though the one before it wasn't much better).

As a side note, I've seen those black-backgrounded images before (as well as one for young SSj2 Gohan). Does anyone know of their origin? --DesireCampbell 22:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * I reverted the images, none of them had a copyright tag. -Dark Dragon Flame 23:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

After next reversion, can we lock this article?
To prevent trolls from editing it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.189.67.134 (talk) 18:14, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Temporary protection
It's obvious this article has been the subject of some intense vandalism today. I've temporarily protected it. --Durin 02:13, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

why isn't there a personality section for Son Goku?
I don't know, I would think this page would have one. Infact, I think it did have one a while ago. Shouldn't we I don't know...add one or at least put it back? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TheUltimate3 (talk • contribs) 21:46, 13 March 2007 (UTC).


 * I don't see how his overall personality is worthy of a whole section, plus it is pretty much covered in the opening paragraph. --Majinvegeta 14:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Goku's power level > 9000 ?
What is Goku's power level? What is the unit of measurement? I would like to know this because someone keeps editing 9000 (number) to say that Goku's power level "is more than this." But they don't cite any episodes to support this, so we think it's vandalism and we revert it. I've probably already used up my three reverts on that. Anton Mravcek 14:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Goku's PL in the English Dub was 9000, but like 8,500 in the Original Japanese and the manga. --Majinvegeta 22:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, when Goku fought Captain Ginyu his power level was about 180,000, and I'm sure it's grown more over the years of the series. So, I have no clue where you got the "9000" information from to begin with, but it's clearly wrong. Unless there is someway you can re-enforce your information better than I did. All I know is that his power level has got to be more than 180,000.Halo3master5000 08:50, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Halo3master5000
 * The "information" comes from User:Karragin, who keeps adding it to the article on 9000 without citing any episodes or manga. ShutterBugTrekker 22:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Majinvegeta was talking about his Power level during his fight with Nappa-- $U IT  01:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
 * An audio clip from this episode of Vegeta yelling "His power level is over nine thousand!" has become part of a popular internet meme. The user doing this is being stupid. Goku's power level far succeded 9000 before the series stopped using this measurment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Animedude360 (talk • contribs) 23:06, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Superman comparison
I seem to recall reading something about Akira Toriyama having deliberately based parts of Goku's character on Superman. If somebody can confirm this and give a citation, that would be worth putting in the article. 71.203.209.0 00:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I unfortunately don't recall reading that anywhere even though the similarities between Goku and Superman are quite obvious. I do however specifically remeber Goku being an obvious spoof of Sun Wukong from Journey to the West (even their Japanese names are the same, Son Goku is the Japanese translation of Sun Wukong). Of course, Goku and Superman are constantly compared to one another by amatures and professionals alike. In Toriyama's other manga, Dr. Slump, there is a super hero character named "Suppaman", who is obviously a spoof of Superman --Majinvegeta 00:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Kami the master
Question and I believe I am right. Was Kami consider a master of Goku? If I am not mistaken Kami's symbol was on Goku Gi from when he entered the 23 tournament to when he trained with North Kai or was that his own symbol? If I am wrong please can someone let me know. Heat P 12:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

In the anime Kami-sama supervise Goku training but was Mr Popo who was directly involve, in the Manga in english doesn´t show much about the train that Goku is going through, but when the tournament start, Goku, Kuririn and Yamcha ask Master Roshi if he bring uniformes with the turtle simbol for them, Muten Roshi said to them that now they are following their own path and they dont´t have to use the kame school simbol anymore. In the dress Room Kuririn said to the others: " I new Master Roshi would not bring us uniforms this time so i make one for myself", and when he turns Goku and Yamcha tell him that he is not the only one. After the battle with Piccolo, Goku´s clothes are rip apart, and Kami ask Goku to be the new Kami-sama saying that he is not whorted to be the God, and Muten Roshi said something like: "Any of this warriors could not has progress as far as they did, all thanks to the Dragon balls you made" and Kami said something like: Goku you have a wise mentor, i think you look better with the turtle school in your uniform. He didn´t use Kami´s simbol. He was using the Kame simbol when he went to train with North Kaio, and when North kaio give him a new uniform, not heavy but durable, he put his simbol behind. Ykkifenix 12:42, 2 April 2007 (UTC)