Talk:Golf/Archive 7

Golf - a game, not a sport
First things first. I notice that the article classes golf as a sport rather than as a game. It is undoubtedly true that most practitioners of golf feel very strongly that golf should be classed as a sport rather than as a game, particularly because this classification seems to positively affect the way they like to view themselves in relation to practitioners of (other??) sports, but also because they feel its status and intrinsic worth as a pursuit would be somehow diminished if it were classed as a game instead.

However, assuming golf is not classed as a sport simply on the basis that its status or that of its practitioners might for some unwarranted reason be lowered if classed as a game instead, I am not sure on what basis it is classed as a sport in the first place. Most people would consider golf to be closer to, for example, darts, snooker or bowling (which most people would class as games) than to, for example, lacrosse, hockey or table-tennis(which most people would class as sports).

Ideally, of course, golf should be classed correctly, for the sake of accuracy, as a game, but given the fact that practitioners of golf are over-sensitive over its classification, I suggest that, at least, a paragraph be included in the article mentioning the aforementioned controversy relating to its classification.


 * First things first. Please supply a good reliable cite that discusses this "controversy". Otherwise we have no evidence it exists.  Please also provide some cites that back up your definitions and examples of what defines a "sport" distinct from a "game" and what "most people" think.  You'll also need to show an authoritative source that says the accurate and correct classification for golf is a game.
 * Once that is all established we can consider how it can be reflected in the article. Thanks. -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Here you go: http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/505429.html - link for the controversy and link showing that most people considered golf to be a game, not a sport.

"Using a popular comparison site* of google results, the term "game of golf" had 315,000 results vs. "sport of golf" at 18,900 results. Doing a search on "golf is a game" had more results (20,700) compared to "golf is a sport" at (5,570) results. [ http://googlefight.com/ ] [* not to be considered definitive since many things can contribute to results generated and the results number presented with a search is a "general sum"]

And finally as a more definitive means of determining the most common use, I did a search on google news for relevant, current news, the terms, golf and game returned [ http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=golf+game ] 13,200 results compared to 3,610 for golf [ http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=golf+sport ] and sport. More defining is the fact that when searching for golf and sport, the search terms were not associated in the text, whereas the search for golf and game, returned a large amount of results where golf was actually referred to as a game.

I think definitively this shows that the general public would consider golf a game as well. Generally speaking."

Here's another link stating there is no consensus whether it is a sport or a game and that the answer is likely to depend on whether one is objective or not: http://www.popsci.com/entertainment-amp-gaming/article/2009-01/golf-sport

Finally, here is a link to hundreds of links of debates whether golf is a game or a sport: http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB315GB315&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=is+golf+a+game+or+a+sport%3F

As to the definitions, here are some: Sport: an active diversion requiring physical exertion and competition. Game: a contest with rules to determine a winner. Now, take biathlon, the winter sport that combines cross-country skiing and rifle shooting. It is not a game; it is a sport. If biathlon involved rifle shooting and a leisurely ski to the next range, it would be a game. Similarly, if golf involved a race against time, it would be a sport. Here is what, for example, golf would have to be like to be a sport, rather than a game: ''...Each competitor is timed as he or she makes their way around the course. Every time they go one over par on a hole, five minutes is added to their time. The competitor who has finished the course fastest wins.'' Alternatively: ''...Every time a competitor goes one over par on a hole, they have to do a penalty lap dragging their golf-buggy behind them. If they go one under par on a hole, they do not get penalised if they go one over par on another hole. The competitor who finishes the course first wins.'' In both of these examples, physical exertion would play a critical role, unlike it does at present in golf. Therefore, golf is currently not a sport. It is a game. Now, could you please show some objectivity and act in good faith? Thank you.


 * You could do the exactly same google analysis with football (any variety) and produce entirely similar bogus results. Golf is internationally recognised as a sport. We do not need to discuss this any further. wjemather bigissue 19:27, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

No, you couldn't do the same analysis with football. For football to be a game, rather than a sport, it would have to exclusively involve, for example, taking kicks at an unguarded goal from a stationary position, with no time pressure. Sounds a bit like golf, doesn't it?

Here is the results page for the question: "is football a sport or a game?"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB315GB315&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=is+football+a+sport+or+a+game%3F

Compare it to the results page for the question: "is golf a sport or a game?"

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GPEA_enGB315GB315&q=is+golf+a+sport+or+a+game%3F&btnG=Search&meta=

There is no controversy whatsoever whether football is a sport or a game. There is however a huge controversy when it comes to golf. Just because you don't like the look of the big white elephant in the room doesn't mean he's not there. Please read the Wiki editorial standards - you have to be objective and neutral, not biased and subjective!

You are right, we do not need to discuss this further. A section should be included in the main article noting the controversy as to its status. Ideally, of course, for the sake of accuracy, the status of golf should be changed in the article to that of a game.


 * There is no need for a section on a non-controversy which is perennially brought up by people who hate golf. I recommend you further investigate what constitutes a sport, and check out the archives of this talk page, before commenting further. wjemather bigissue 20:03, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * All the above googling is original research. Please read this link and it will explain.  Original research is not permissible on Wikipedia.  Also a link to a forum post is not a reliable source and may not be used to cite anything on Wikipedia.   I refer you to my above answer; please produce cites from reliable sources that discuss the "controversy" regarding over whether golf is a game or a sport.  That does not mean googling result counts and constructing evidence or a case of a controversy yourself.  -- Escape Orbit  (Talk) 21:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Anyone interested in re-hashing this tired, old topic should check out the archives, and everyone using this discussion page should identify themselves by signing their posts.Eaglebreath (talk) 22:35, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

That's a serious overswing on the first picture! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.168.239.124 (talk) 03:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)


 * This article talks about it further Is golf a sport? And the answer is...it depends Bebarlow (talk) 23:28, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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New article suggestion : Rangefinding in golf
Currently the "Rangefinder" article has an interesting but unreferenced section "Golf". Anybody willing to take a swing at Rangefinding in golf? Staszek Lem (talk) 03:15, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

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Colonial America
Would it be correct to give a short description of how golf spread to other nations? Including the Americas?

Also, while it is probable that the Dutch acquired the formal game of golf from the Scottish, Kolf is not played with a "bat". It is played with a "club", a thin wooden stick with a metal wedge at the bottom, pointed to the ground. There are extent surviving examples from he 17th century in Dutch Museums. There are examples of how it was swing in paintings... from the ground up over the shoulder like a golf club.

In America "Kolf Clubs" are found in 17th century documents, below is an example of instruments used for sale, another is in an inventory, and a third describes four men, in two teams, with scoring kept using chalk by a tavern keeper for drinks.

Quote: "1 club and balls, [purchased by] Pieter Hurters Lammert who lives there [Fort Orange, Presently Albany, New York]" sold for 6 florins. From: Fort Orange Records, "Sale of Godds of Gabriel Leenderstsen at Public Auction" September 5th 1654, Page 33 Source: http://www.newnetherlandinstitute.org/files/1914/2777/5076/Fort_Orange_Records_16541679.pdf

Sorry if this was considered vandalism. It does use primary sources that help shape how golf spread to other nations.

The current page explains one dirrect line of golf, however, there are golf courses in America that did not start off as an 18 hole course. One club in New York started off as a 3 hole. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Optimumhunger (talk • contribs) 03:40, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Dictionary - from the year 1727
You can use this dictionary to define Mall or Pall Mall vs. "maaliebaan" kolven which is different then "Kolf".

Mall, or Pall-mall = een "Maliebaan" (Mall-ball) Mall-stick, = "Maaliekolf" (Mall-stick)

https://books.google.com/books?id=taBlAAAAcAAJ&dq=Dictionary+golf&q=golf#v=snippet&q=kolven&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by Optimumhunger (talk • contribs) 04:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)