Talk:Googoosh/Archive 1

Googoosh is a Persian singer
Googoosh is the single most nationalistic and proud Iranian singer. She has NEVER said that she is "azari". She did say in an interview that, "I was born in Iran, I have an Iranian passport, and I speak Persian, that is why I am Iranian. She ONLY referrs to herself as being Persian.

All of her music, movies, concerts, and interviews have only been in Persian. Therefore, Googoosh is a Persian singer. Dariush4444 19:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please try and provide a source next time you make such a definitive statment. Her official website ( [] ) says "Googoosh was born Faegheh Atashin in 1951 on Sarcheshmeh Street, in an old and worn down part of Tehran, to Azerbaijani immigrant parents from the former Soviet Union.". That's on this page: []. --- Farzinf 17:37, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
 * oh and by the way. I came across this interesting youtube account. I encourage all those who know dariush4444 to check it out: http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=dariush4444 -- --- Farzinf 03:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand this. Every time I put the place of her birth Sarab somebody comes and edits it. Please explain me what is going on. If you write in the same article that her father Saber Atashin was born in Sarab and after the divorce took Googoosh and moved to Tehran this means that by the time of her birth Googoosh was not in Tehran, her father was not divorced and therefore she was still in Sarab. Or otherwise we can say that she was born in Tehran then they moved to Sarab then the parents divorced and she moved back to Tehran again with her father? This part needs to be checked. I knew some people from Sarab who told me that Googoosh was indeed born in Sarab. Also I am going to change the part about her fathers place of birth. I read here in NY in International Iran News in her interview right after 2000 Toronto comeback concert that her parents were from Azerbaijan SSR therefore Saber was born in Azerbaijan. It is her who was born in Saraab or Sarab--armenianNY 00:06, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's policy says that in the introduction of an article the Nationality of the person is all that is required. Even if she was "Azari" that is not allowed to be put into the heading of the article. She totally denys her heritage anyways. I have seen many concerts and interviews where she said herself, that I AM PROUD TO BE PERSIAN...(She did not say Iranian or Azari).

She probably hates the fact that her parents came from Azarbaijan because out of 400 songs only 1 of them is in the "azari" language and her son only speaks Persian.Dariush4444 19:00, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
 * please provide your sources. --- Farzinf 20:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I heard that her parents were actually of Tajik origins and they were Iranophones. They moved from the USSR to Iran. No, not at all. In her Toronto 2000 interview she stated that her parents were from Azerbaijan. There are different opnions about her heritage. I heard from people from Sarab that she is not even muslim because Saber Atashin was Assyrian and her mother, about whom Googoosh does not like to talk was Armenian. This is where the male pet--armenianNY 22:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC) name Googoosh comes from. But some people say that Saber was Azeri and Googoosh's mother was Armenian. However it is fine that she consideres herself Irani or Persian. SHe can have Azeri ethnicity or mixed ethnicity, nobody argues. But of course she is an Irani singer since she represents Irani culture. The only song she sings in Azeri is "Sakina dai kizi nay nay". But we also know that Azeris are not that respected in Iran and are not also allowed to speak their language or have their cultural autonomy. Therefore, it would have been hard to become famous in Iran just by being culturally isolated from the majority or Iranis. Azeris are not consider as a recognized minority in Iran since they are the same shia muslims the same Iranians and unlike Armenians they have to obey the generally accepted rules for all the muslims in the country. They are Irani. Azerbaijan in Iran is considered to be a geographical place and not an ethnic entity. But for example to be Armenian in Iran means to be different (culturally,religiously) to be minority. For example, Armenians can produce vodka, trade alcohol beverages, do not wear hijab or chador during their internal gatherings, within their inner cicle.


 * she is an iranian singer of Azeri descent. she speaks Azeri. she calls Azeris as he "hamshehri" (from the same place). she also respected most Ahmad Shamlu - whom she considered "the father of all poets, writers and intellectuals of Iran" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Koroghlu (talk • contribs) 23:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

Nationality
Someone keeps vandalising the article's introduction. Googoosh is not an "Iranian-Azarbaijani" singer. Her ONLY nationality is Iranian. She was born in Iran and sings only in Persian. In all of her interviews and concerts, she has always referred to herself as being Persian. Googoosh once said in an interview that, " I was born in Iran, I have an Iranian passport, and I speak Persian, therefore I am Iranian and nothing else". The pan turkic propoganda and lies has no place in a encyclopedia article. Therefore I will remove the false claims and keep editing the article until the vandalism stops.74.108.66.84 19:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
 * 1. she is an ethnic azeri Iranian. Meaning her ethnicity is Azeri and her nationality is Iranian.
 * 2. "sings only in Persian" nope, you should do some more research. she has sung in Persian, Azeri, English and other languages. you can check the "internation songs" section of this website: http://www.googoosh.tv/googooshsongs.html
 * 3. "always referred to herself as being Persian". Please provide a source.
 * 4. "I was born in Iran, I have an Iranian passport, and I speak Persian, therefore I am Iranian and nothing else". Of course her nationality is Iranian that has nothing to do with her ethnicity. Iranian being her nationality is not being debated here. Regardless could you please provide a source when quoting someone.
 * 5. "The pan turkic propoganda and lies has no place in a encyclopedia article." Where do you come up with associating "Iranian-Azerbaijani" with Panturkism. This Panturkism labelling is just a technqe SOME Iranian nationalist use to rid of any individual or separate identity (Azeri, Kurdish, Armenian, act) in Iran. Much like Aryanism. It's no wonder most ethnic jokes in Iran are about Azeris.
 * 6. "Therefore I will remove the false claims and keep editing the article until the vandalism stops." Please, there's a better way, why not report the "vandalism" and see what the admins thing about your claim. If you continue to removing sourced information you will be reported and your editing privileges will be suspended. --- Farzinf 07:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Farzin, you're assuming that Iranian is the same as Persian. Her ethnic background is already discussed in the background section, nationality alone is sufficient for the lead. --Mardavich 10:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Get your facts straight...She has 1 song in Azari, 2 songs in English, 1 in Italian, and 2 in arabic...She has over 500 in Persian. Therefore, it is accurate to say that she is a Persian singer. Also, I was always referring to her nationailty not ethnicity. You are the one who is going to get banned because you are breaking all of wikipedia's rules. Her ethnicity has no place in the introduction of the article. That is what the other sections are for. You really need to pick a new idol for your pan turkic propoganda because she obviously has choosen to be "Persian". You are probably not even Iranian...a True Iranian would never single her out as "Azeri". You would simply say she is Irani.

Vandalism
AS AN ARAB, I have done extensive research on this singer named Googoosh, both through literature, live interviews and entertainment works. Therefore, I am in a position to request that all Azeri people (those from Azerbaijan and the Azeri minority from Iran) STOP misrepresenting this singer's nationality and origin as Azeri and STOP vandalizing this page to fulfill this claim. She may have heritage related to Azeri but to label a person based on this is illiterate. Futhermore, to claim someone that has no physical, psychological or cultural traits of a particular nationality is scandalous. Should this continue, I will lock this page and have vandals banned. Please observe mannerisms of a lettered person, especially when contributing encyclopedial articles. (I will work on this article very soon, perhaps this will help clarify things)...NeutralWriter


 * I removed a reference to Iranian wikipedia, because it is not allowed to use Wikipedia articles as reference for other Wikipedia articles. Grandmaster 10:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

FA Format
Hi, I was looking over the article, addressing some of the issues presented by the peacock words, and I thought, 'hey, why am I editing this article, when it doesn't really fit the format of most FA articles about musicians?' Then I realized that any changes I make to the articles wording might hurt it when we switch over to a better biography style. Here are some examples of FA articles about musicians. You don't have to know them or like them to notice the similarities in how they all look. I can try to hunt down some of her music to hear what she sounds like, but the fact is, I didn't grow up listening to her. Many people working on this article have. My intention to replace the format with an FA-style one is not meant as disrespect;. Just the opposite. FA articles about living musicians are hard to find, and I think that this one could be really nice, if we work together and help each other get stuff done. Here are some FA artcles about musicians:
 * Selena
 * Mariah Carey
 * Celine Dion
 * Alison Krauss
 * Hollaback Girl (I include this Gwen Stefani song because there are audio samples. It would be awesome if we were able to find some samples of Googoosh to add to the article) -Arcayne 09:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a sandbox with which we can port the substance of the article into and convert the body of the article over to an FA format, leaving the (live) main article untouched until we are ready to replace it with the FA formatting style. I won't port the article over, as I think we need consensus that this is a good plan. :) Arcayne 09:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternate name spellings
I've removed fromthe article the various spellings of Googoosh: Gogosh, Googosh or Gougoush, as they aren't really pertinent here. However, they might better serve as disambiguation words, so that people can find the article no matter how they think it is spelled. Arcayne 11:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I've just created redirects for those particular spellings. The Behnam 20:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Great! Thanks. - Arcayne  (cast a spell)  16:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Discography Listings
I found the albums on Amazon, and supplemented them with the items found on eworld record.> There may be more that weren't released outside of Iran, so that is a consideration. Note: A great many of these albums I found online don't have dates attached to them. If you can find verifiable release dates, please add them. -Arcayne 14:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Filmography Listings
We also need Filmography listings, with year of release and English translation (as this is the English language Wikipedia). As I do not speak farsi, we need a native speaker to do this. - Arcayne  (cast a spell)  16:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I did an initial translation. Most of them are my own traslation right now. I will try to see if there is any official translation. ps Bita and Nazanin are girl names. Mamal is an acronym for Mohammad.(Arash the Archer 20:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Why an acronym? Forgive my lack of info. Arcayne   (cast a spell)  20:51, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In Iran like in the film a guy whose name is Mohhamad may be called Mamal(Arash the Archer 20:54, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Oh, like someone named John is Jack, or Henry is Hank? Arcayne   (cast a spell)  23:09, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Exactly. But nowadaws Mamal is not used very much. Mamad is more common now. (Arash the Archer 23:56, 10 April 2007 (UTC))

Images
I recently removed this image from Filmography because it didn't work well with the 2 column style. I have no problem with the picture itself. This is my failing to understand how to incorporate it. format-wise. However, I think it might be better if we can find a few album covers (or live concert pictures) to add to the Discography section, and a few film stills from her films. Thoughts? -Arcayne 13:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
 * This image should stay. Beacause it shows the Googooshy hair style. Maybe we should have a sparate section "Iranian Idol" (Arash the Archer 22:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC))
 * As I said before, there isn't a problem with the pic. It just didn't fit approriately within the section. Ideally, we would have a few album covers in the discography, and a few film stills in her Filmography. The pic would be great when there is a statement and cation about its noteworthiness. Arcayne   (cast a spell)  23:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Replace deleted image
I deleted this image and replaced it with the one Arcayne suggested to be deleted. Since that image represents Googooshy haircut.(Arash the Archer 00:18, 11 April 2007 (UTC))

Delete another image
I deleted this additional image also. The article looked like an album. Any idea of using this image instead of the one in infobox?(Arash the Archer 02:50, 11 April 2007 (UTC))

Image context
Anyone know what captions to add for those images? It would make them better for the article if we could get some context for them. The Behnam 20:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Lead Statements
I have noticed the presense of endnotes in the lead. Most good and featured articles don't have these, and so I think it might be helpful to find a new home for the citations within the article itself. I won't remove them outright, but they do need to find new homes. :) Arcayne   (cast a spell)  01:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Not a bad Idea. The citations are there since some setences looked like peacock statements. But we can include them in better places. (Arash the Archer 15:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC))

Sound files
The sound file currently in place int he section, 1960's and 70's seems a bit clunky and distracting. Would it be better down at the bottom of the page? I've noticed in other FA articles for entertainers that these sound files tend to be further down the page. Arcayne  (cast a spell)  21:54, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should add to content instead of moving the sound file.(Arash the Archer 23:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC))
 * Actually, I had another look at it (comparing it to other FA articles of similar nature), and it is actuallyh just fine. I retract my earlier advice.
 * Btw, I changed the main picture, and added a pic fromthe 70's, to show an age progression. Ithink the 70's pic is just trippy. I can see how tube tops might not be all that acceptable to the revolutionary government ;)  Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:26, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Red link table
Hey. I noticed the discography table has a lot of red links for the same people. Feel free to unlink some of those so that each individual only has one actual link. I'll probably end up doing it in any case but I figured I'd point it out just in case any of you want to tackle it. Thanks. The Behnam 05:15, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Myself, I don't think its necessary to even have the table describing lyricist, composer, etc. The FA example of Mariah Carey's page doesn't use a table, and I think its a bit distracting and might take longer to load on slower computers (more so than it would with the images we already have in place). I think we are better off reverting back to the non-table format for both the Discography and the Filmography. Thoughts? Arcayne  (cast a spell)  05:52, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thus, an entry from Discography would look like this:


 * 1975: Mosabbeb (with Dariush)
 * Nimeh Gomshodeh Man	(My Lost Half)
 * Behtarin Fasl-e-Taazeh	(The Best Fresh Season)

and make a note at the beginning of both sections that the Farsi title is listed followed by the English translation. I think we have to do this sort of thing, so as to make it more in keeping with other FA articles of this type. Arcayne  (cast a spell)  06:03, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I added composer and lyrics since they are usually important in work of Iranian singers but if you think that it is not good for English WP, we can have a detailed Discography of Googoosh sub-page and a summery here.(Arash the Archer 18:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC))
 * I am sorry if I suggested that the composers and lyricists weren't important (they are usually the one raking in the money, and not the artist when the song plays on the air). I don't see any harm in a sub-page, but I do think the main article should try to conform with other similar FA articles, using them as a guideline. Arcayne   (cast a spell)  18:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Translation error?
Recently User;FirstRun offered a translation markedly different rom Arash's. While I inquired about this edit, I am somewhat concerned that other edits are introducting a possible CoI issue that I think might need addressing. Two questions come to mind: first, is the offered re-interpretation of the translation accurate? Secondly, FirstRun might be a marketing company, which in itself is not cause for reverting, but being used as a marketing tool without citation is. I have been known to jump at shadows before, and maybe this is one such instance. I think it bears watching. Thoughts? Arcayne  (cast a spell)  14:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not a native English speaker and I admit my translations are not perfect. For the current issues:
 * Gharibe Ashena is a paradox. I know Gharib means Stranger but I don't know the exact translation of Ashena. It should be antonym of Stranger. Complete translation should mean The Stranger that you know
 * Hamsafar is a person who you are traveling with. Maybe Fellow Traveler is better.

I dont know about the user FirstRun. This user has even created a page for their business(First Run Features) that may :not be notable enough to have a page in Wikipedia. FirstRun also added the mariage of Googoosh to Homayoun Mestaghi. As far as I know, it is a rumer. (Arash the Archer 18:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC))


 * I am also not sure about these translations. It is good if a native Persian/English spreaker can help:
 * Khialati(خیالاتی)
 * Šabe Qaribân (شب غریبان): Shab means Night. Gharib has 2 meanings. Stranger(like Gharibe Ashena) and alao a person who feels Nostalgic.
 * Fil va Fenjan (فيل و فنجان ). By word it means Elephant and Cup but it is an expresion for Big and Small. Is there a similar expression in English?(Arash the Archer 19:09, 1 May 2007 (UTC))

Googoosh hairstyle
Doing a simple googling for googooshy (dude, I bet you cannot say that ten times in quick succession! lol), I found this site. It had some interesting pictures of Googoosh - ones I had not seen before. Would any of them serve to replace any that we already have? Arcayne  (cast a spell)  04:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Found a source that says Googoosh used to change her hairstyles as much as Madonna:

''"She has suffered, but she has triumphed," said Tahareh Zahrah, a 42-year-old mother of two who last saw Googoosh perform in 1977. "Googoosh was my idol so this is a real thrill. Growing up, we all used to imitate her -- what she wore, how she acted. She used to change her hairstyle and her look as often as Madonna. We just loved her."''

From looking at sources, the recurrent theme is that what makes a hairstyle a googooshy is that it is short. Never having lived in Iran, i don't know what the predominant hairstyles were for women before Googoosh, but I am getting the impression that long hair for women was a big part of that. Insights from folk who have grandparents (or parents, if they and you are old enough) living in Iran in the 50's and 60's might provide a window here... Arcayne  (cast a spell)  04:40, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Another source. A music review. ) Arcayne   (cast a spell)  04:41, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Googooshy haircut was short and what you seen in the picture was considered short in that time. There are many other photos of her with shorter haircut but I think this is known as Googooshy hairstyle. Anyways, if we couldn't find any source it is better to change the caption to something like what Britannica says:Women copied her short haircut (known as the “Googooshy”). (Arash the Archer 12:35, 2 May 2007 (UTC))

--- And again, I don't mind changing the Discography and Filmography sections back from tables to FA style, but I wanted to give Arash and whoever else the opportunity to export the lyricist and composer info to the sub-page that was suggested earlier. If these composers and lyricists are fairly prolific, it might be something to propose on the WikiProject:Iran page as potential new articles. Arcayne  (cast a spell)  04:32, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I will do it in a few hours. Are you sure the filmography should aslo be changed to the previous format?(Arash the Archer 12:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC))
 * Well, the Mariah Carey articles does that (I will find other examples), and we want Googoosh to be FA as well. right? Arcayne   (cast a spell)  16:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, there seems to be a difference between disc-and filmography. filmography uses tables, such as the Mandy Moore article. Maybe take a look at that and Mariah, and tell me what your preference is. I personally think a table for a very long list is distracting (and it does take longer to load than text), but I don't think my personal opinion matters any more than yours. What do you other folks think?
 * Well I have already implemented my idea which is a summerized table. I wanted to change it to list but I didn't know what to do whith the years that she had more than one film. However I agree with you that filmography seems to be more in table format in WP articles.  ps I think we can create a subpage for concerts too.(Arash the Archer 16:44, 2 May 2007 (UTC))