Talk:Gooseneck, Isle of Man

BRD Bold, Revert, Discuss
The two fatal accidents listed in the article did not occur at the Gooseneck and occurred some distance above and below the corner. The other memorials are again commemorative plaques and this issue was discussed on the Windy Corner Talk page and there has been speculation for the reason of placement. The inclusion of information from the David Wright publication is borderline commercial information or an advertorial and needs to be restructured to match the rest of the article. The article is written in British English as with the rest of the Snaefell Mountain Course articles and the article should be reverted to the original terms common with British-English. Also, a number corrections need to be made to the article as the technical description is incorrect and it is not possible to make an accurate description of a road feature from either Street View on Google Maps or Wikimapia. Provided an reference from an independent neutral secondary source to address the issue of notability and address accuracy problems or the article will be reverted. agljones(talk)07:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Mention of fatalities
Another editor removed mention of fatal accidents at this corner. I think at least some of it should be restored. The removed text: Fatalities Two Scottish racers had fatal accidents here:
 * James Watson Davie, a junior racer in the 1955 Manx Grand Prix, on 6 September 1955,
 * Rob Mitchell, on 2 June 1994 in practice for the 1994 Isle of Man TT. Mitchell rode a Yamaha FZR 600cc.

There are memorials to five spectators here:
 * John Crowe 1994
 * Andy Brown and John Dowling 2003
 * A. D. Purchase and Geoff Parker (date unknown).

Further reading
 * "Spectators’ Negotiations of Risk, Masculinity and Performative Mobilities at the TT Races", by Allen Terry, Avril Maddrell, Tim Gale, and Simon Arlidge, (April, 2014), in Mobility, a Taylor & Francis journal

I believe the mentions of racing accidents is highly relevant and factual and appropriate. Another editor has noted that the accidents occurred coming into and out of the corner, (perhaps 150 yards and 300 yards from the center of the turn?), but I don't know the details. Gooseneck Corner has been argued to be a large area, and its boundaries are unclear. But the location stated for the accidents is Gooseneck Corner, I understand, and it's appropriate to keep simple mention of them here without going into complications. It would be great if sources could be provided that would permit making more refined statements.

About the other memorials, perhaps just stating there are five memorials to spectators here, without naming them, would be better. It's a notable and well-documented feature of this racing course that people come and make memorials beside it.

And the further reading belongs elsewhere.

I'll pause about restoring the accidents to the article for now. I hope some resolution of differences in opinion on the issue of mentioning fatal accidents or not, in all named corner articles, will be achieved in an RFC sometime soon. (Note, this is a compromise, while mentions do appear in list-article.)-- do ncr  am  23:00, 29 March 2015 (UTC)


 * The Wikipedia policy is very clear WP:NOT. As mentioned previously, Wikepdia editors involved with editing  fatal aircraft accidents will remove all names from articles as Wikipedia is not a memorial.  These are not road-side memorials they are commemorative plaques or memorials.  Please do not speculate why the memorials are left at these locations.  The memorials are listed as "spectators" when actually "Andy Brown and John Dowling 2003" are a sidecar crew that were killed at another race circuit on the Isle of Man and there listing were removed as Wikipedia policy is very clear WP:NOT. These are not memorials from the Isle of Man TT Races as quoted in the references. Please observe a neutral point of view as there are road-side memorials involving fatal accidents to members to the public on public roads.  These references and sources do not mention these other memorials.  Also, road-side memorials both formal and informal memorials and further motor-cycle memorials are also found on other roads on the Isle of Man including the Fairy Bridge, Buglam Bay on the A2 Douglas to Ramsey Road and the A16 King Edward Road. The Snaefell Mountain Course also has other road-side memorials to fatal accidents to members of the public on public roads, war memorials including Braddan Bridge, Crosby cross-roads, Kirk Michael, Churchtown  Lezayre and Ballaugh Bridge.  There is also a pet cemetery at Appledene and "other commemorative plaques" can be found in Ballaugh, Kirk Michael and Parliament Square in Ramsay. The Wikipedia policy is very clear WP:NOT. There is a culture section at the main Isle of Man TT article and perhaps a mention of the type of commemorative plaques or memorials could be include in that section.


 * The Wikipedia policy is very clear WP:NOT. This policy can not be bypassed by just listing the dates and then including references at the bottom. This is very clearly a contrived policy to bypass WP:NOT and it is unclear if these are fatal accidents to members to the public on public roads or fatal accidents to competitors. The two accidents did not occur at the Goosneck corner.  A previous editor has given a length of the Gooseneck corner of over 900 feet and this may have be caused by the problem of incorrect coordinates listing the Gooseneck on Google Maps at the Water Works Corner which would appear to be approximately 900 feet when measured on Google Maps.  The Gooseneck like Keppel Gate, Brandywell, East Mountain Gate and the WINDY CORNER are considered to be general areas.  However, the editor keeps imposing a WP:OWN policy of limiting articles to the motor-cycle connection which leads to problems of notability and the editor imposes his WP:OWN policy as these general areas as contrived Wikipedia articles from sources and references.  The site of 1955 accident will never be satisfactory identified as the newspapers sources are unclear. Usually, witnesses give detailed accounts of accidents.  However, the 1955 accident is very vague and would suggest it was not fully observed by witnesses due to the unusual gradient aspect at the Gooseneck and not all the corner can be seen at any position.  The 1955 accident may have occurred near to the site of the 1938 Karl Gall accident and the works BMW rider was found alive but badly injured in a road-side ditch near to the Gooseneck.  The 1994 did not occur 150 feet from the apex of the Gooseneck and the accident did not occur at the site at all. The 1994 accident was a result of a collision with another competitor and the motor-cycle and rider travelled some distance along the road with both hitting a stone wall some distance below the Gooseneck corner.  As mentioned previously, the references in the article   List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents in date column nos 1 to 245 only confirm the name of the rider and the date.  References in the place column nos 1 to 245 confirm the actual location and the references for the 1955 and 1994 accidents are not listed.  As it is not possible to list all the 220+ corners, sometimes a general location is used with a separate notation (see nos 34, 41, 57, 94 & 176). This may not be an ideal situation as the article was conceived as a list and not an article and never intended for the listings to be repeated in other articles. Please follow the conventions set in the List of Snaefell Mountain Course fatal accidents article at all times. agljones(talk)22:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)