Talk:Gorals

Untitled
No Nationalism on this page! Keep this in mind when you edit this page that 'Nationality' is not a clear cut case and that ethnic identity has been proven over and over again to be fluid, so that communities shift their allegiances over time and not always uniformly, despite all the propaganda! I AM WATCHING THIS PAGE!--Orestek 03:44, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

moved section of history of Gorals, removed by Molobo, here:

Goral flag
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Proposed_flag_of_Gorals.svg

Ethnographic maps
There is a need for an ethnographic map depicting the Gorals.--Z oupan 01:08, 5 March 2016 (UTC)


 * (4 years later) Please add a map to this article! 173.88.246.138 (talk) 01:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Vlach origin of Gorals
Some hypothesis show that Gorals came in middle ages from today Romania

Opinion supported by:

Jan Długosz, Historiae Poloniae, Przedziecki edition, tom I, Kraków, 1863, page 320

Eugen Lozovan, Dacia sacra, Editura Saeculum, Bucuresti, 2015, p.175

Chronicle: Samuel Hazzard Cross și Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor, The Russian Primary Chronicle. Laurentian Text, The Mediaeval Academy Of America Cambridge, Msassachusetts, 2012, p.62 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.124.176.216 (talk) 07:56, 27 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, masses of semi-nomadic Romanians were expanding from the Balkans to many regions of Central-Europe in the 13th and 14th centuries, including Moldavia, Transylvania and the Northern Carpathians. Borsoka (talk)


 * Stop! Yuor edits are vandalism ! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.124.176.216 (talk) 08:43, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * , you have been banned from WP. Borsoka (talk) 08:49, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Borsoka, learn that erasing references is VANDALISM — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.124.176.216 (talk) 09:15, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Please avoid vandalism! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.231.27.114 (talk) 06:38, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is quite possible that the semi-nomadic Vlachs reached as far as the Northern Carpathians during their migrations in the 13th-15th centuries, but we should prove that the Gorals' Vlach origin is a major theory, or only one of the fringe theories created by the Dacoman Lozovan. Furthermore, you are banned from WP. Borsoka (talk) 06:44, 29 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Borsoka, according to several editors you are a sockpuppet acting at the commands of other people. Erasing references is VANDALISM. The historical hypothesis must be known. Please stop erasing references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.231.27.66 (talk) 09:12, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Although I realized that you have multiple personalities, but in this world you are only a single editor. If you think I am a sockpuppet do not refrain from initiating an investigation against me on the proper project page. Otherwise, please remember that you were banned from editing for sockpuppetry, so try to avoid WP. Borsoka (talk) 14:33, 31 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Are Samuel Hazzard Cross și Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor, Lozovan and Długosz unreliable authors ? Borsoka, your personal research is

of bad quality. Try to show arguments and not war editing 79.112.40.152 (talk) 04:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * , you should not edit WP. Borsoka (talk) 05:34, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Most ethnographic evidence seems to link the Gorals to antiquated Carpathian groups including the migratory Vlachs that occupied the ethnic Carpatho-Balkanic space. The settlement of the Podhale highlands corresponds in timing to migrations of the Translyvanian highland Vlachs. There is much in terms of physical appearance, national costume, culinary dishes, and other facets to confirm this. Among others, there is the bryndza cheese stemming from branza, and the trembita which has apparently been a signalling device in the mountains since time immemorial. There is little to suggest anything to the contrary like historically plains dwelling Poles attempting to take on a risky proposition of lifestyle and terrain that they historically had no experience in. Everything seems to point directly back to the Vlach origin, and I say this as a Polish Goral living in the same state as their USA heartland of Chicago.StevenJac (talk) 21:27, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

Are there any other significant population of sheep herders in Poland not in the GORALS? Read that the VLACHS were traditionally sheep herders and would have move across the mountains to GORALS Swb32cox (talk) 01:22, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Gorals
Redirect is not including this page:
 * Goral
 * Kortoso (talk) 17:45, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

Can we add that their is a large community in Northern New Jersey, Passaic, Clifton, Garfield cities that migrated in the 1890's and early 1900's and have a thriving Gorale culture and organization there as well? Swb32cox (talk) 01:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
 * The addition is plainly relevant so add it if you have verifiable, reliable, independent sourcing for it. A diaspora section would need to be added to accommodate it. sirlanz 01:48, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Gorals. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070928235257/http://www.goraleslascy.pl/news.php?id=22 to http://www.goraleslascy.pl/news.php?id=22
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070101213220/http://www.vysoke-tatry.info/vyklad.php?tatry=123 to http://www.vysoke-tatry.info/vyklad.php?tatry=123
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051226043438/http://www.idn.org.pl/medykon/tatry/ to http://www.idn.org.pl/medykon/tatry/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20051123101856/http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/programs/specials/diaspora.asp to http://www.chicagopublicradio.org/programs/specials/diaspora.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 07:20, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Gorals. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070706080330/http://www.gorolskiswieto.cz/en.html to http://www.gorolskiswieto.cz/en.html

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 15:44, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

Pieniny Gorals
Anthropology section should be expanded by adding information about other recognised Goral groups like: Pieniny Gorals, pl: górale pienińscy from Pieniny or Spisz Gorals JakuV (talk) 11:09, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

And Zagorzan Gorals pl: Górale Zagórzańscy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.248.153.201 (talk) 04:36, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

Religion
Clearly, if there is a substantial number of Gorals who are Lutherans, the passage shouldn't say 'Gorals are adherents of the Roman Catholic church', but 'Most Gorals are adherents ...', etc. --178.249.169.67 (talk) 11:56, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 19:37, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Proposed goral flag.png

POV and unsourced claims
Leader31, the article needs to be revised, not only does it contain POV-sih and dubious statements, which are not backed up by any sources or are a gross misrepresentation of what the source actually says. Also, the article contains made up sections which do not follow the standard format of similar pages. If you will keep reverting back to the old text, I'll start an RFC for each questionable item, because at this time the article is badly skewed and inaccurate. Also, you cannot simply revert useful improvements to the article just because you don't like them, that's just Status quo stonewalling. --E-960 (talk) 11:34, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * You removed sourced material and added dubious claims (for example the origin of Gorals). At least one reliable source says the Gorals are indigenous. Leader31 (talk) 11:38, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm warning you. You keep removing referenced material. Leader31 (talk) 11:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Leader31, Yes, I checked the "referenced material" and it does not say what the statements in the article claims. The reference source needs to say what you later write in the article, not your WP:OR coupled with some WP:SYN based on a reference source. No warning needed if you hold to the proper editing standards. --E-960 (talk) 11:53, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * . Page 67 in the book. Leader31 (talk) 11:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * And please slow down a bit, an RFC is probably not a bad idea. Leader31 (talk) 11:59, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * There is no reference to Germans in that reference. Also this statement is completely POV-sih. Why is this so important? Perhaps you could write how Gorals were influenced by Poles and Slovaks (aka Slavs), especially since Gorals speak one of those two languages. This is why this article is just bad, it highlights some trivial facts (and not exactly what the source states), yet it omits or downgrades major facts. --E-960 (talk) 12:02, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

During World War II, Nazi Germany sought to Germanize the Gorals, along with the Estonians, Latvians and Lithuanians, and include them in the resettlement plans.[19] Under Nazi racial laws, the majority of Poland's population and its minorities were viewed as "undesirable" and subject to special statutes, slave labour and police law.[20] However, Nazi racial theorists considered the 27,000 strong Goral population as a separate ethnic group from the Poles.[21] Termed Goralenvolk, they were deemed part of the "Greater Germanic Race" and given separate (milder) treatment from other Poles.[22][23] This is a key point in the history of the Gorals. I hope you agree. Leader31 (talk) 12:05, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Why regarding Polish subject matter you and a bunch of other editors need to make WWII the center of every article? You don't need all that, really. Instead of focusing on WWII, find some quality sources which detail where the Gorals came form or what their customs or traditions are, instead of... meanwhile during WWII and 10 paragraph later... WWII bla, bla bla. --E-960 (talk) 12:10, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * If you think referenced, key facts in their history are bla bla bla, you should really consider an RFC. Leader31 (talk) 12:12, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Just looking over your edit history you are a relatively new editors. You need to understand that the Wikipedia articles need to be balanced, you have 800 years of Goral history the biggest paragraphs is on WWII. This is key Reliable sources and undue weight, also WP:ONUS verifiability does not guarantee inclusion. --E-960 (talk) 12:15, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * You may add new material, just don't delete important, sourced content, that's all. You most probably even speak Polish, I'm begging you to add new information on this group. Leader31 (talk) 12:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Trimming an article is often a standard process on Wikipedia if some sections are too big or have undue weight about a particular fact. WWII lasted 5 years out of the 800 years of Goral history. --E-960 (talk) 12:25, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * If your "trimming" means removal of important sourced material, you should start an RFC. End of discussion for now? Leader31 (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Hey Leader31. Apologies for bringing up an old topic, but I seen you are also interested in creating a sourced and legitimate Goral article for the betterment of it. If you are interested, please take a look at my newest topic, Consensus Seeking: The Goral People as an Ethnic Group, whereby I have built my sourced-based, academic case for inaccuracies. I would really enjoy building a consensus. Thank you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 13:39, 11 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

Leader31, first, let's see if we get some additional input, but if this things does not get moving I'll set up an RFC. Btw, I already gave you an example of the source does not say what was later written in the article. We don't need an RFC for that. --E-960 (talk) 14:30, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * We should set up an RFC, yes. If you engaged with my sources, you would see that referring to the Gorals as an ethnic group is academically sourced and undeniable. I am glad you quote source 1 in the article with Abel Ravász, because he refers to the Gorals as an ethnic group more than once. In reference to you before claiming that it refers to the Gorals as a subgroup, you should be aware that he also refers to the Roma and Hungarians as a subgroup in Slovakia. Obviously he isn't contradicting himself and is referring to the Slovak populace as the group and its ethnicities as the subgroup, unless you want to claim a Hungarian Slovakian seriously doesn't believe the Hungarians and Roma are not a seperate ethnic group,
 * @E-960, where does Abel Ravász refer to the Gorals as a "ethnographic subethnicity" can you answer this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 16:03, 12 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)
 * seriously doesn't believe the Hungarians and Roma are a seperate ethnic group* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 16:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2023
Can somebody write that gorals are just an ethnic group rather then an ethnographic group as gorals are not just a simple polish ethnographic group, we have our own identity, our ancestors came from Balkans and we live in three countries, we are the ones who can chose with nation we are part of, but nothing will change that we are a separate ethnic group. I am not an Nationalist, I love my nation Poland, and i hope we gorals can live in Poland as an autonomous group and sheare our culture with the word.

Greetings from an "Żywiecki Góral". 185.91.152.34 (talk) 09:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. AnnaMankad (talk) 10:12, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ethnicity of Vlachs
Me and E-960 have been continuously removing each others' edits over the ethnicity of Vlachs. I am simply tired of having to add mounds of sources for them to stop removing it. He claims Vlachs couldn't be majority Ruthenians since Gorals speak a Polish dialect and are Catholics but proceeds to claim we descend straight from Romanians. A bit ironic. No one is saying we descend from majority Ruthenians. Could we please do something about this because he is using no sources for his claim and seems to have no knowledge on the region (as evidenced by putting wrong dates for the Vlach migrations to the region)? Dawidospowidos (talk) 10:05, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Dawidospowidos, you really need to stop with the POV push, for some reason you don't accept the fact that Jánošík was a Goral from the Slovak side, even though he is one of the most famous Zbójniks in history, in fact there was a whole TV series in Poland about him (see Janosik (TV series)). Also, there are several sources, including those that I did not add, that say that Gorals migrated to Slovakia from Poland (not as you wrote from Slovakia to Poland). Also, you need to stop mixing Podhale Gorals with Ruthenian Gorals, one group is Catholic and speaks a Polish dialect the other is Orthodox and speak a form of Ruthenian language. Just because they can be generically lumped together as "highlanders" meaning people who live in the mountains does not mean they are the same ethnic group or that they are closely related. Also, Gorals (those in Podhale), very much consider themselves as part of the Polish nation, all you have to do is see all the Polish flags and images of the Pope John Paul II on every other house in Zakopane, Lemkos (the Ruthenian Gorals don't consider themselves as Polish, but as a Ruthenian minority). So, pls stop adding confusing statements into the article. I'll agreed with you on this; that the Valachs were a relatively small element that got assimilated by the Poles after their migration to the Tatra Mountains and I kept your text on this. --E-960 (talk) 14:58, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Btw, pls stop changing things at random, I wrote 13th and 15th centuries because that's what the sources say (that's why I included quotes with each citation I added), however you went in and changed this to 15th and 17th centuries. --E-960 (talk) 16:03, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The 13th and 15th century are the times when the Vlachs first arrive to the Kingdom of Poland, not to the Goral Lands. We can have that added but you must specify that that means modern day Hutsulshchyna.  Dawidospowidos (talk) 12:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Also there are no Ruthenian Gorals. You're confusing them with Rusyns. I am not saying Ruthenian was a name for Gorals but a name of Vlachs that came to the region, as they were by the time majority Rusyns. This is why there used to be a Ochotnica Polska and Ochotnica Ruska. As obvious as it may seen, this statement has been heavily misinterpreted causing people to think Gorals are slavicised Romanians. I was also wrong with Vlachs arriving in the 15th century to the region, it was the 14th century source: https://www.etnozagroda.pl/gorale-podhalanscy/gospodarka-wiejska-na-podhalu#:~:text=wyruszyli%20z%20Ba%C5%82kan%C3%B3w%20wzd%C5%82u%C5%BC%20Karpat,%2C%20jak%20i%20organizacji%20sza%C5%82a%C5%9Bniczej). Dawidospowidos (talk) 12:56, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The sentence reads "between the late 13th and 15th centuries, Vlach shepherds migrated to the region, gradually moving northwest" so is a broad statement referring to the slow migration over the Carpathian mountains. The statement does not infer that the Vlachs showed up in Nowy Targ in the year 1295 or something. Also, Gorals are not Slavicized Romanians, however that small group assimilated into the local Lesser Polish population and changed the way it raised livestock. Gorals are not Romanians who settled in Poland, so no discrepancies there, that's why I kept your text to highlight that point. --E-960 (talk) 18:34, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Nevertheless, I think it should be stated that by the time Vlachs were arriving into Goral areas, they were majority Slavs. Dawidospowidos (talk) 08:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * i also think it's worth mentioning that Gorals also descend from Slavic (mostly Nitran and Vistulan) run aways. Dawidospowidos (talk) 08:43, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Dawidospowidos, stop adding dubious and unsourced statements, your edits are becoming disruptive. You are literally making stuff up and adding it into the article. What kind of nonsense is this: "This also caused Gorals to become a war like people that would defend the borders of the Kingdom of Poland and Kingdom of Hungary"? Also, I noticed in several places you are simply adding phony reference citations to back up your questionable statements and this is starting to look like vandalism, one example is here when you added this text: "...19th century with the death of Wojciech Mateja" you cited as your source: ''Nicholas W. Reyland (2011). Zbigniew Preisner's Three Colors Trilogy: Blue, White, Red: A Film Score Guide. Scarecrow Press. p. 373.'' and "This caused many to compare Gorals to Zaporizhian Cossacks." not only is this statement irrelevant because you could just as well compare the Gorals to Cowboys or something, it is dubious because the source you cited does not say anything of the sort. At this point your edits are disruptive and border on vandalism. --E-960 (talk) 11:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Gorals defending the borders of the Kingdom of Poland and Hungary is a set in iron fact. If you're a Pole you should recognise Gorals saving the Polish king in Potop. You seem to have very surface level knowledge about Gorals as you push the view all Gorals live in Podhale (say that in Orawa and you won't come out alive). How can I take someone who said Ruthenian Gorals seriously. You clearly must be blind since the source I cited clearly says that. If anything it's your edits that are disruptive and misleading. You seem to have really bad reading-comprehension skills. Dawidospowidos (talk) 16:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You're adding dubious statements to the article and misrepresenting sources. You cited Three Colours trilogy (a French psychological drama) film score guide as reference here... seriously??? This amounts to disruptive editing and borderline vandalism. --E-960 (talk) 18:27, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Then the citation must've been added wrong simple. Your only argument is that it's vandalism. Dawidospowidos (talk) 08:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Putting Gorals as a Polish subgroup is ironically a very very POV view. It goes against what the article says further below anyway. Dawidospowidos (talk) 08:46, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just stop with the disruptive editing, or you will be reported, even one of the sources you cited says "It is a very rare and special subgroup". --E-960 (talk) 11:38, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Reverted the edit by user E-960. The sources linked by Dawidospowidos back up his claim and I don't find 'subethnicity of the Polish nation' scientific or accurate to the sources of Gorals spread throughout the different states the Gorals Highlander ethnic group inhabit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 13:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)
 * @E-960 If you continue to revert these changes, then I will continue to protect this page against your malicious actions. Do you know that the term 'nation' is not a scientific term on its own? It's a political concept, which may be concurrent with the idea of a nation. The Gorals may be part of the Polish nation, which is predominately made up of the Polish ethnic group, the Poles, but they are also part of other nations, such as the Slovaks, because they are of their own an ethnic group. You come across as extremely nationalistic and are biased by your own biases. This is why you add in things like "ethnographic subethnic" to sentences which, if checking the sources, do not contain this language. It is your own language, your own bias and your own anti-Goral sentiment. Find something better to do with your time, you do not know the subject. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 18:24, 30 August 2023 (UTC)
 * biased by your own preconceptions* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 18:25, 30 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

EmilePersaud, you need to stop WP:EDITWAR and WP:POVPUSH or you will be reported. The statements you and Dawidospowidos have been trying to add are not backed up by the sources (you are blatantly misrepresenting them and adding WP:OR). The Gorals in Poland identify as Poles, in the Czech Rep. the Silesian Gorals there identify as a Polish minority, and in Slovakia as Slovaks. So, you and Dawidospowidos need to stop punishing some separatist Goral identify because none of the sources you provided say the Gorals are seen or recognized as a national minority, with one source saying there was a petition in Slovakia, however this is just in Slovakia not Poland or the Czech Rep. Btw, even a source added by Dawidospowidos says "SUBGROUP" so just stop with the nonsense. I cited it in the text and you removed it. --E-960 (talk) 19:16, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

They are not mutually exclusive term as you try to push. A goral can be and is part of a seperate ethnic identity whilst being part of the Polish nation, as with the Slovaks. What you are doing is confusing the two, either through ineducation or through blatant malicious behaviour. You need to read the sources you attempt to mess with.
 * We have both tried to reach consensus by sharing the sources with you. I checked the sources that you use to edit your POV, and they omit the terms which you try to falsely push. The edit war is what you are engaging with.
 * ethnic group
 * noun
 * a community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. "the largest of six ethnic groups inhabiting the area of northern Sumatra"
 * nation
 * /ˈneɪʃn/
 * noun
 * a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory. "the world's leading industrialized nations"
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 19:22, 30 August 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)
 * I have added a new topic :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 10:57, 8 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)
 * On topics related to consensus-seeking, I think that it is best to use the new topic I have set up: Consensus-seeking: The Goral People as an Ethnic Group, so that it is easier to discuss the sources and what people have. For example, I would enjoy seeing the sources that use the term 'ethnographic subethnicity' to refer to the Gorals there, as this has not yet been answered. I will wait for the hopefully healthy discussion, but if there isn't a consensus, I am going to research correct policy on going forward with the article. Thanks everyone, hope to see you there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 20:41, 12 September 2023 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

{{ Consensus-seeking: The Goral People as an Ethnic Group
The topic of consensus for the Goral article specifying the people as an ethnic group should go forth. The literature on the Gorals overwhelmingly indicates themselves as an ethnic group, as I will show within the links I will provide. The current unwieldy characterisation within this article of themselves being classed as an "ethnographic subgroup" is inaccurate and lessens the academic quality of this article.

The sources that indicate the Gorals as an ethnic group are as follows:

From In Your Pocket City Guides, founded in 1991, it refers to Gorals as "ethnically diverse group of mountain people inhabiting an area stretching west to east from the Ostrawica Valley in today's Czech Republic to Poland's Biały Czeremosz Valley" and "ethnically distinct from the Poles in a number of ways including linguistically,"

Press Agency of the Slovak Republic "Now/Teraz", reports on a Goral-led student-teacher documentary to documentary the distinct ethnic group "Táto etnická skupina" culture of the Gorals. It speaks of their experiences, their folklore and their music and traditions.

Within the second paragraph of the Wikipedia Gorals article, it states "The Gorals as a separate ethnographic subgroup began to form in the 14th century." This represents a POV violation, which forms my argument, due to that article not expressing any mention of a "ethnographic subgroup", in fact it simply says on its second paragraph bloc ''"Górale podhalańscy jako odrębna grupa zaczęła kształtować się w XIV wieku." "The Podhale highlanders began to form as a separate group in the 14th century."'' No where in that article does it use the words ethnographic or subethnic.

A Slovak article by Dunszt, the number (1) source on the Gorals Wikipedia article, speaks of different ethnic groups within Slovakia, such as the Roma ethnic group and the Goral ethnic group. Within this article, it refers to Gorals as an ethnic group multiple times, such as: "Nie je to veľmi početná skupina. Do akej miery sa jej treba venovať?

''Je pravda, že Goralov nie je veľa, ale zase ani až tak málo. Výstup z nášho projektu bude dokladovať päťciferné číslo. Existujú aj oveľa menšie etnické skupiny. Čo sa týka histórie Goralov, politicky boli vždy problematickou etnickou skupinou.'' which translates into English as

"It is not a very large group. To what extent should you devote yourself to it? It is true that there are not many Gorals, but then again, not that few. The output from our project will be documented by a five-digit number. There are also much smaller ethnic groups. As for the history of the Gorals, politically they have always been a problematic ethnic group."

Within this 2021 article from the official website for the Oravská Lesná municipality in northern Slovakia, they state "Gorali chcú byť národnostnou menšinou", which translates to "Gorals want to be a national minority." Further within the article they say "Ako na to? Pri vypisovaní elektronického formulára k sčítaniu obyvateľstva sa pristavte pri výbere NÁRODNOSŤ.  Goralská národnosť nie je vo výbere?  V kolonke „ INÉ“ vpíšte národnosť „GORALSKÁ“ . Tak pomôžte Goraľom k ich zápisu ku Goralskej menšine.

''Ak sa k nim prihlási dostatok ľudí, mohli by byť oficiálne uznaní ako národnostná menšina. Viacerí túžia zvýrazniť svoju identitu, ktorá je živá nielen vďaka ľudovej kultúre a reči." which translates to "How to do it? When filling out the electronic form for the population census, select NATIONALITY. Goral nationality is not in the selection? In the "OTHER" field, enter the nationality "GORALSKÁ". So help the Gorals to register with the Goral Minority.''

''If enough people apply, they could be officially recognized as a national minority. Many want to emphasize their identity, which is alive not only thanks to folk culture and language."''

The context of this article is that previously, Slovak citizens could only select between 13 official national minority categorisations. This was not a simple petition, but sanctioned by an official municipality, giving it validity.

I could continue linking sources, which I will as I feel this will drag on to a larger debate given my experience. But I believe that especially with Druszt and Goralia Historia, this article has suffered from non-neutral POV editing, whereby sources are cited and what is written inside them is not written within the article. This is not how Wikipedia is designed, and I think that we should nip it in the bud here and all act in good faith. It is in the best of the article, the best of our time and most importantly the best for the factual accuracy of the topic at hand: the Gorals. I hope we can go on constructively going forth, and right what is wrong. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 01:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The active link for Duszt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 01:18, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

• contribs)
 * A scientific journal from the Institute of Ethnology and Cultural Anthropology, based in Kraków, writes of the unique ethnic identity of the Gorals. This links within it a multitude of professionally backed up sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 07:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Going forward, I will aim to reach use this consensus and hope people respond and engage with the topic so we can make this article the most accurate it can be. As Abel Ravász, a Hungarian-Slovak minority rights activist stated in the first citation of the Gorals article (which I will argue shouldn't be the first citation as it is too non-specific), we should recognise and understand the Gorals with a large G as a cultural ethnic minority and appreciate their voice, instead of succumbing to nationalist falsehoods that the Gorals want something they do not. We shouldn't deny the facts because of political POVs. I look forward to hopefully a good-faith discussion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 11:48, 8 September 2023 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)
 * I have been searching for some more sources on the Gorals. What I find interesting is, a Polish dictionary website that mirrors the words of Abel Ravász, currently used in the first source of the Goral article, where he says there is a distinction between highlander without a capital and Highlander with a capital. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 21:04, 12 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Bump. EmilePersaud (talk) 15:59, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Can we go through the official Consensus steps i.e. the template? Merangs (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Within this topic, I shall aim to demonstrate why I believe the article should be edited to categorise the Goral people as an ethnic group. I made a topic within this talk page about the same matter almost a year ago, but I was not fully familiar with the template system so I'll start the conversation alright, using a lot of what I said there.

First of all I'm going to demonstrate what is an ethnic group and what is a nation to show that they are not mutually exclusive.

Defining an ethnic group

Oxford Reference defines an ethnic group as "a community or group of people with distinctive social, cultural, and behavioral characteristics that distinguish them from others in the same or different country or society."

Defining a nation

Oxford References defines a nation as "a large group of people said to be bound together by a shared history, culture, language, religion, and/or *homeland..."

The reason I have given this definition is that I have seen behaviour that seems to suggest people think that you can not be simultaneously a member of an ethnic group and a wider nation. Naturally, the Goral people inhabit areas which primarily includes Poland, Slovakia, as well as the Diaspora. For example, you can be a ethnic Welshman in Britain, you can be an ethnic Bosniak in Turkey and you can be an ethnic Goral in Poland or Slovakia.

Sources backing up Gorals as an ethnic group

Some of the countless independent and high quality source material you can find, which lists the Gorals as an ethnic group, includes the following sources:

No. 1) Dunszt, Sociologist Ábel Ravasz (this article is number 1 as a citation in the article already, I'll get to that) - Ravasz refers to Gorals as an ethnic group multiple times, including stating "Napríklad sme sa stretli s iniciatívou Goralov na Slovensku. Ide o zaujímavú etnickú skupinu, ktorá na Slovensku nikdy nebola ako národnosť uznaná. Gorali, podobne ako Rusíni, žijú na oboch stranách štátnej poľsko-slovenskej hranice...," In English: ("For example, we met with the Goral initiative in Slovakia. This is an interesting ethnic group that has never been recognized as a nationality in Slovakia. Gorals, like Ruthenians, live on both sides of the Polish-Slovak state border...,")

No. 2) inyourpocket, The Górale | Polish Highlanders - This page presents an outline of the Gorals and the culture that sets them apart, as well as their dialect and dialectical subgroups. Using the term ethnic multiple times, the page states "By far the most well known Górale are the so-called Podhale Górale, who inhabit the highland area south of Kraków between the Western Beskid Mountains in the north and the Tatra Mountains in the south. The two principle towns in this region are Nowy Targ and Zakopane, of which the latter is considered to be the unofficial Podhale Górale capital. Ethnically distinct from the Poles in a number of ways including linguistically...," Again, this is setting a framework for a clear understanding of an ethnic nature of the Gorals, and the paragraph also reflects the definitions of an ethnic group given by Oxford Reference. This is not cherrypicked either, other reputable modern dictionaries will give similar definitions for an ethnic group and a nation.

No. 3) Teraz, Nezlomní Gorali putujú s hrdosťou po stopách svojich predkov (The indomitable Gorals walk proudly in the footsteps of their ancestors) - Teraz, part of TASR news org founded in the early 90s, did a piece in 2019 on Goral expression, which involved various students, teachers and media organisations. This is a good example of how Gorals view themselves, one of the most important factors in the formation of identity. Of course we can see with say the Kurds in Turkey you can't just say someone is a "Mountain Turk" and for people to accept it as absolute or monolithic. My point is I want to address the fact that neither Poland nor Slovakia currently recognise Gorals as their own ethnic group. State recognition is just one piece of a greater puzzle and that must be factored in here. The article states ''"Študenti a pedagógovia z trnavskej FMK a Katedry fotografie a nových médií z VŠVU vystavia v Galérii Ľudovíta Hlaváča v Trnave dokumentárne zábery zo života Goralov. Táto etnická skupina žije v horských oblastiach na Orave a Spiši s vlastným goralským nárečím a valašským folklórom. Prostredníctvom vystavených fotografií "Goral na gory" máte možnosť nahliadnuť do ich životov a spoznať, aké je srdce a nátura pravého Gorala." In English: ("Students and teachers from Trnava FMK and the Department of Photography and New Media from VŠVU will exhibit documentary footage from the life of the Gorals in the Ľudovít Hlaváč Gallery in Trnava. This ethnic group lives in the mountain areas of Orava and Spiš with its own Goral dialect and Wallachian folklore. Through the exhibited photos of "Goral on the mountains" you have the opportunity to look into their lives and get to know the heart and nature of a true Goral.")''

No. 4) [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319109596_Podhale_-_czym_jest_i_gdzie_sie_konczy_O_niejednoznacznosci_pojec_grupa_etniczna_i_region Podhale - czym jest i gdzie się kończy? O niejednoznaczności pojęć "grupa etniczna" i "region" (Podhale - what is it and where does it end? On the ambiguity of the concepts "ethnic group" and "region"), Anna Marzena Wrona] - This is a really thorough piece of academic writing which outlines the struggles in defining Goral ethnic identity. If you can read Polish I do recommend reading it in full. I'll quote one section from its final conclusion which states "Przykładem grupy etnicznej – choć dopiero w stanie tworzenia – są jednak również Górale Polscy, a więc zbiorowość szersza niż Podhalanie. Prowadzi to do konstatacji, że tożsamość etniczna – a z pewnością również regionalna – może mieć charakter piętrowy a wspólnoty etniczne mogą składać się ze wspólnot etnicznych niższego rzędu." In English ("An example of an ethnic group - although still in the process of being created - are also the Polish Highlanders, a community broader than Podhale. This leads to the conclusion that ethnic identity - and certainly also regional identity - may be multi-layered and ethnic communities may consist of lower-level ethnic communities.)

These are four examples I will give to keep it precise and to the point. There are plenty of grassroots articles, opinion pieces, municipal sanctioned efforts to have Gorals be recognised as an ethnic group, and media coverage which outlines Goral ethnic expression across different language formats.

The article content does not reflect the content of what it cites

To get to the point, the Gorals article has fell victim to POV narration and a deep misunderstanding of the contents of the citations. As mentioned before, citation 1 by Ravasz, an article which only mentions the Gorals as a portion of a broader topic on minorities, is used to argue that Gorals are a subgroup of the Polish. What the quote fails to mention is that Ravasz also called the Hungarians (his ethnic group), and Roma as subgroups. He's specifically talking in the context of minority subgroups of a greater nation-state. For example, from the article:

''"Napríklad kultúra Rómov na Gemeri je takmer nerozlíšiteľná od kultúry Maďarov, dokonca vnímame, že maďarskí Rómovia ako hudobníci sa môžu považovať za najlepších nositeľov autentickej maďarskej kultúry. Podobne ako Gorali sa môžu považovať za autentických nositeľov slovenskej kultúry." In English ("For example, the culture of the Roma in Gemeri is almost indistinguishable from the culture of the Hungarians, we even perceive that the Hungarian Roma as musicians can be considered the best bearers of authentic Hungarian culture. Like the Gorals, they can be considered authentic bearers of Slovak culture."''

This is simultaneously comparing the Roma, an ethnic group originally from India, to the Gorals, whilst also stating that they both can be authentic bearers of the culture of their greater nation. In short, a separate ethnic group can be considered, or should be considered, just as much as and capable to be a part of their wider nation as another, whilst being their own distinct ethnic group. That is what the sociologist Ravasz was arguing, and that is the source which the user who categorises the Gorals as an 'ethnographic subgroup' chose approaching a year ago as their source number 1. I entirely agree with what source Ravasz was actually saying, not just cherrypicking one part of his interview out of context.

The history section also is POV and makes up the content of the citation. The referenced article, Górale Historia, simply states ''"Górale podhalańscy jako odrębna grupa zaczęła kształtować się w XIV wieku." In English ("The Podhale highlanders began to form as a separate group in the 14th century.") This is opposed to the article as it currently stands which states "The Gorals as a separate ethnographic subgroup began to form in the 14th century"'', again, POV or original research.

Conclusion

I believe I have demonstrated the cause for categorising the Gorals as an ethnic group, the definitions showing that one can be an ethnic group part of a wider nation, and the inaccuracies which currently exist in the article as present. I hope that I will get responses to this proposal so we can work together to create a better article. Thanks for reading. EmilePersaud (talk) 22:15, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * The facts speak for themsleves and the silence from people I know would have read this is deafening. EmilePersaud (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)