Talk:Gordie Howe

21 All-Star teams?
I've heard (& it's a record unlikely to be equalled) Howe played on a record 21 All-Star teams. Trekphiler 08:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * And almost certainly won't be. Most of Howe's career took place in a league with a hundred players in it; that Ray Bourque was named to nineteen season end All-Star Teams in the expansion era is remarkable -- Gretkzy himself fell well short.  Ravenswing 17:42, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Gordie Howe hat-trick
Is there a source for the trivia item that he's never actually recorded a Gordie Howe hat-trick? I personally find it hard to believe that in 2186 games, 975 goals, and 1385 assists, he's never had at least one game where he scored a goal and an assist, and also a fighting penalty. --Legalizeit 03:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)


 * 7 years later... there are two sources and they disagree.  The article currently states: "It should be noted, however, that Howe himself only recorded one Gordie Howe hat trick in his career,[5] on October 10, 1953, and March 21, 1954.[6]", which is obviously not acceptable. 108.127.160.149 (talk) 17:17, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Alleged copyvio
I just went over that mrandmrshockey.com page, and I can't see a single damn section in this article that's taken from there. Quite aside from that I'm one of the many editors who've worked on it, and wrote my copy myself, thank you! That this comes from an anon IP registered today and with eight actual edits is highly suspect, and given the large copyvio backlog, I want to see some line-by-line proof of copyvios -- and any such section changed rather than the whole article held hostage -- before such an important article gets put on the shelf for a few weeks. Ravenswing 07:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Name Gordie Howe is copyrighted, see Gordie Howe's official website
Gordie Howe is the only player to get his name copyrighted, please see his official website www.mrandmrshockey.com --69.156.150.37 07:40, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Here is the exact page on his website The name itself Gordie Howe is copyrighted. He is the only player to get his name copyrighted. --69.156.150.37 07:49, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I think the law states that things in the public domain, such as sports figures, can't really copywrite such stuff -- you couldn't, for instance, prevent a newspaper from writing a story about someone in the public domain. Someone with actual knowledge of the law will have to correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding. Meeples 07:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I was under that assumption myself. Perhaps someone should take this to WP:AN. K O  S |  talk  07:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

In Gordie Howe's case he can, He's the only player ever to do that. --69.156.150.37 07:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * You'll need some proof to back that up. I think he can copywrite his name so that others cannot use it without his permission in some instances. But, by your argument, you're breaking the law by even writing his name on this talk page, now aren't you? Meeples 07:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

You are correct, I will call him GH for now on!--69.156.150.37 08:02, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Good plan. Until we get a copywrite lawyer in here, let's not worry about this article being a violation. Meeples 08:05, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Besides the template is for text that appears to infringe on the copyright of said website, the text in the article itself is not a copyright infringement, but is released under the GFDL. So even if his name is copyrighted that template is not correct.  K O  S |  talk  08:10, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * This might clear this up, the anon appears to be mistaken. From: http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-protect.html Can I copyright the name of my band? No. Names are not protected by copyright law. Some names may be protected under trademark law. Contact the U.S. Patent & Trademark Office, 800-786-9199, for further information. K O  S |  talk  08:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC
 * Quite aside from that it's the moniker "Mr. Hockey" that was trademarked (not "copyrighted," a term used by the editor in complete ignorance of the law), not Howe's name itself. That being said, Howe was called "Mr. Hockey" decades before, its use in this article is valid, and what the hell ... "Detroit Red Wings" is no less trademarked, and it's used in half a thousand articles.  Ravenswing 01:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * The user that tagged this article is a sockpuppet of an indefinitely banned user, VaughanWatch AKA JohnnyCanuck. There is no need to worry about the copyright tagging.  -- JamesTeterenko 03:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

He won four Stanley cups
I think this should be mentioned.

Picture of Gordie Howe
I put up a photo request tag as we need a picture of Gordie Howe. Mr. C.C. 07:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good luck. More than most players, Howe's pretty fierce about copyrighted images.    Ravenswing  12:26, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I added an image from Commons. It's not the best option for the infobox. Hopefully someone else can come up with a live picture and this image can be moved down further into the article. Accurizer 23:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Pretty ironic how Bart Simpson misappropriated his image, then. Maybe a screenshot would be an appropriate addition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.70.113 (talk) 23:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Citations & references
See Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the  tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 04:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Stats
It appears that the stats given for Godie Howe are incorrect and incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thright (talk • contribs) 19:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames
I'm believing that some nicknames for Gordie Howe are more common / prominent than others, and that displaying all names in the infobox, misleads the reader to think he was refer to all equally.

I believe the citation for the nickname "Power" is very poor. I've googled other incidents and found it to be very isolated nickname. In the first citation it sounds as if only one person refers to him that way:"'My dad [Bud Polie] was very close with Gordie Howe and he thought Gordie was the greatest player ever. Nobody else was even close. My dad gave him the nickname, ‘Power,’ before he was Mr. Hockey."Whereas in the following quote, it seems as if it comes from Jack Adams :"Nicknames: 'Mr. Hockey,' 'Jack Adams called me `Power.''" The following quote lists Mr. Hockey and Mr. Elbows as the two most common.. but then mentions many others besides "Power":"Howe's list of nicknames is almost as long as his list of accomplishments -- his unbelievable skills and longevity baffling scribes who struggled to find words to describe his phenomenal talents and aggressive style of play. Mr. Hockey. Power. Mr. Everything. Mr. All-Star. The Most. The Great Gordie. The King of Hockey. The Legend. The Man. No. 9. And of course, Mr. Elbows." I feel we should just limit the nicknames inside the infobox to just two, but mention other names elsewhere in the article. Flibirigit (talk) 04:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I completely agree, and just reverted the edit; I want a better reason to include a nickname in the list than that Bud Poile had a private one by which he thought of Howe.   Ravenswing  12:57, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * A limit of two nicknames is arbitrary. "Power" is not a private nickname as evidenced by the two references above.  There are many more instances that this nickname was used.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:22, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Limiting to two names is not arbitrary. Those are the only two nicknames that he is widely known by. All the other nicknames can be worked in elsewhere in the article. Flibirigit (talk) 01:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The only nickname he is widely known by is Mr. Hockey. Perhaps this is the only nickname that should be in the infobox. During most of his playing career "Power" was his most frequently used nickname.  Eddie Shore was known as Mr. Hockey and Howe waited until Shore died in 1985 to trademark the name.  Bobby Hull was also called Mr. Hockey in the late 60's.


 * Howe was probably referred to as Mr. Elbows as often as he was called Elbows.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 07:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Adding all of those rarely used nicknames in the Trivia section is not a good solution. Trivia_sections are discouraged and it should not be expanded.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 07:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Feel free to rewrite the entire trivia section into prose. Flibirigit (talk) 15:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Is that justification for adding to a problem?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It means I appreciated the fact you wanted to have other nicknames in the article. It also means I don't have time to rewrite the entire trivia section. If you don't like my suggestion of keeping your contribution in a trivia section, then you can delete all the nicknames in the article. Flibirigit (talk) 22:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Errr ... I've got a THN collection going back to the early 1950s, Trail of the Stanley Cup and several other contemporary sources. In none of them does "Power" ever come up as a contemporaneous nickname for Howe, nor does "Mr. Hockey" come up for Hull.  (Only TotSC is contemporary to Shore's career, but even so.)    Ravenswing  13:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I can find plenty of references where Bobby Hull and Eddie Shore are called Mr. Hockey, but I'm not sure what that will accomplish. My point is that Mr. Hockey wasn't synonymous with Howe until the 70's and I don't think that nickname was used for him with any regularity until the late 60's.  In his first two decades in the NHL "Power" was his most frequently used nickname and I think the article should reflect that.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * If you in fact have references for those being nicknames widely acknowledged by the press and the public, feel free to present them.   Ravenswing  22:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There are already three references supporting "Power" in this discussion, but if one more will convince you that it belongs in the infobox, I'll get one. If you mean Hull and Shore being called Mr. Hockey, tell me how that will resolve things and I'll get them for you.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 00:08, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, there are references saying that Bud Poile and one or two other people used the nickname. I'm looking for exactly what I asked: references for those being nicknames widely acknowledged by the press and the public.    Ravenswing  01:24, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * How's this?
 * The New York Times, September 8, 1971
 * "The Gordie Howe Dynasty Ends
 * By GERALD ESKENAZI
 * Power. That was Gordie Howe's nickname, bestowed on him by players who wore the Detroit Red Wing uniform over the last 25 years."--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 17:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly, a name bestowed by teammates... not everyone in general. It should be mentioned in the article as a name given by teammates. Flibirigit (talk) 17:28, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Used by "everyone in general" is a very high standard. I'm not aware of any Wikipedia guideline on nicknames, but I don't believe this is the usual standard for a hockey player's nicknames.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Since the requirement that a nickname be used by "everyone in general" is neither verifiable nor the usual standard, The New York Times reference (above) should suffice.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

He was nicknamed "Blinky" for a time, at least by teammates and opponents. After his head injury, he developed a tic. He seems to have gotten over it in subsequent years. WHPratt (talk) 02:08, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Retired number
I changed the portion under "Achievements" to say:


 * 1) "His number, 9, was retired by both the Detroit Red Wings and the Hartford Whalers. Although the Houston Aeros Howe played for no longer exist, the AHL team of the same name has also retired his number."

I then removed the comment about his retired number in the "Trivia" section, as it was rather redundant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.30.108.183 (talk) 18:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Nickname
Per WP:HOCKEY's decision to remove the nickname field from the infobox, it is being moved here for use later. "| nickname = Mr. Hockey, Elbows" -Djsasso (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Richard saying "Gordie could do everything"
Can anyone find a source for this, that is not self-published? It doesn't conform with policy:BLP--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 17:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

The Hockey News list
I don't think it is significant enough to be in the lead section. A footnote to it would suffice to support the 'one of greatest hockey players' statement. The Hockey News list is already mentioned in the article--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 20:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I added it just to try and support the associated claim, but I see your point. Remove it if you like.  Orlandkurtenbach (talk) 20:41, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Raised importance rating
An attempt is made to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it). Topics which may seem obscure to a Western audience—but which are of high notability in other places—should still be highly rated.SriMesh | talk  03:44, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

SYD HOWE WAS NOT GORDIE HOWE'S FATHER
IN THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE "GORDIE HOWE" IT STATES ON PARAGRAPH 2,"PLAYING CAREER", "...GORDIE HOWE WAS THE FIRST PLAYER IN NHL HISTORY TO PLAY ON THE SAME TEAM WITH HIS FATHER SYD HOWE..." THE WIKI ARTICLE "SYD HOWE" SAYS "ALTHOUGH NOT RELATED, RIGHT WING GORDIE HOWE JOINED THE REDWINGS THE FOLLOWING SEASON (1946-47)..." (PARAGRAPH 8). REFER ALSO TO "JOE PELLETIER'S GREATEST HOCKEY LEGENDS.COM" Cuddybear130 (talk) 21:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)CUDDYBEAR130
 * This and much other incorrect information about Gordie appears to have all been added on April 11 by an anonymous user (24.83.129.239) located near Vancouver. All of these edits have now been deleted and the article restored to its status quo ante. (Centpacrr (talk) 21:45, 13 April 2009 (UTC))

Birthdate, date of death and age are not right
Born in 1928, died 2009', could not have been 76. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.89.205.48 (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Howe is not dead. His wife died at age 76 in 2009 the article does not mention when she was born.--Mo Rock...Monstrous (leech44) 05:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

"Legacy" section Update Required: Hamrlik retired
The current sentence reads: "Mark Messier retired only 11 NHL games behind Howe at 1,756 (and counting minor league action and playoffs, 2,048 total professional games), but this is over five seasons away from 2,478 total professional games (including minor league action), almost a thousand games ahead of the active career leader at the end of 2012 (Roman Hamrlik)."

Roman Hamrlik is now retired. I don't know how to update this sentence because I don't know where to look for the correct data. Specifically, I don't know whether Jagr's overseas experience should be included in his game total. Nonetheless, it should be updated. Sxg169 (talk) 23:59, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That whole paragraph is a bit of a train wreck. I suggest just removing the info about the active career leader.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

houses owned by gordie howe
Did Gordie Howe own a house in Edmonton?174.7.204.250 (talk) 18:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
 * He wasn't from Alberta, never played for an Alberta team and settled in the Detroit area in retirement, so I can't imagine why he would. It'd be trivial and not worth article space in any event.   Ravenswing   20:58, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Google search
Gordie Howe Ice hockey player New England Whalers IHL<br ==Records==porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn porn ... Wikipedia Born: March 31, 1928 (age 86), Floral, Saskatchewan Nationality: Canadian Career start: 1946 Spouse: Colleen Howe (m. 1953–2009) Position: Winger Siblings: Vic Howe

What is this supposed to mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Malcolmmwa (talk • contribs) 14:18, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

The article was vandalized on April 2nd for a brief period of time (< 1 minute) and Google probably picked it up at that time. The article has been corrected and Google will correct itself too (I'm surprised it hasn't been already). I wouldn't worry about it. Sxg169 (talk) 15:07, 14 April 2014 (UTC)


 * At the bottom of that box on the Google search page you can click on "Feedback" to let them know about the problem and it might get dealt with more quickly. Google will automatically update its cache of the page eventually.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 16:53, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

New Info in WHA section
An anonymous user added the following today: "For the 1974–75 WHA season, the Los Angeles Sharks were relocated to Detroit as the Michigan Stags, presenting an opportunity for Howe to make his professional return to the Motor City. However, as the Aeros were not scheduled to play the Stags in Detroit until February, the opportunity was lost when the Stags folded on January 18th, 1975. The WHA would revive the franchise less than a week later, but as the Baltimore Blades, playing their remaining home schedule (including all of their home games against the Aeros) at the Baltimore Civic Center."

Apart from needing a citation or two, I wonder about the relevancy of the information. Does anyone else think that this information should be removed as irrelevant?

Sxg169 (talk) 00:51, 1 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed it since it describes something that never materialized and isn't really relevant to Howe. Teemu08 (talk) 18:50, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

WP:UNDUE/WP:TRIVIA
This minutiae is indeed trivial, and it does indeed blow through WP:UNDUE. It's mindboggling to have a paragraph with the details of his most recent treatment, while his six NHL MVP awards and six scoring titles, and what he did to get them, are not even mentioned in the main text of the article. That he had emergency surgery to save his life in 1950 is only briefly mentioned, in a single sentence (and the date isn't even given), and the knee surgery that cost him a third of the 1949 season and a good shot at cracking the top five of league scoring isn't mentioned at all. Honestly, we ought not be saying anything more than than this: "In October, 2014, Howe suffered a major stroke, followed by several minor strokes in the weeks following, and as of December 2014 is still under medical care." Period.   Ravenswing   07:23, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I have considerably tightened the short paragraph in the "Personal Life" section about Gordie's October CVA and subsequent remarkable recovery after undergoing stem cell therapy in early December so that it is now just three sentences with four reference citations. To call including this in the article "minutiae", "trivial", and WP:UNDUE as it relates to his personal life, however, is just incorrect. Gordie's son Mark (both have been personal friends of mine for more than 30 years) has kept in frequent contact with me (both by email and in person) about Gordie's deteriorating medical condition since last August. When we met in late November just before Mark was about to again return to Texas to be with Gordie, Mark told me that at that time Gordie's doctors and family did not expect him to make it to Christmas. However in an email from Mark on December 15 (six days after the stem cell procedure) he advised me of Gordie's remarkable change, and when we met three days later on December 18 Mark spent an hour showing me dozens of photographs and video clips of Gordie made both before and after the treatment showing the remarkable restoration of his physical and cognitive abilities as well as his vastly improved quality of life. As for complaining about the lack of coverage of Gordie's "six NHL MVP awards and six scoring titles, and what he did to get them" or any other deficiencies, with respect that is really just a red herring. If an editor thinks that any of this should be added (and it would certainly be appropriate), he or she can cure that easily by simply doing so. Centpacrr (talk) 20:38, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's good that you're on friendly terms with Howe's family, and good that his recent medical procedures have helped his situation, but you must recognize that has no bearing on Wikipedia policies and guidelines. We're editing an encyclopedia article, not Howe's comprehensive biography, and however important these medical developments are to himself, his family and his personal friends, they remain trivial over the broad scope of his career and life to the average Wikipedia reader.   Ravenswing   21:25, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * And Howe's hockey accomplishments are hardly a "red herring", either; they are indeed the reason that Howe qualifies for an article, as they are at the heart of his notability. Echoedmyron (talk) 23:13, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
 * What I mean by a "red herring" is not whether or not some aspects of his hockey career have not been added yet to the article (they should be), but using their absence as the reason to not include the information about his late personal life health issues in the section of the article entitled "personal life". Perhaps you are not aware of the intense level of interest and mass media coverage this story has generated over the last two months, and the impact his health issues have had in the hockey world. Both have been immense. The item under discussion here consists of three sentences containing 70 words constituting less that 1.5% of Gordie's entire WP entry, hardly an "undue" amount of space. A contention that WP articles must only be written for "the average Wikipedia reader" (whatever that is supposed to be) seems to me to betray a fundamental misunderstanding of what encyclopedias in general -- and Wikipedia in particular -- are intended to be. WP is not meant to pablumized its content to appeal only to the lowest common denominator, but instead to provide a broad range of reliably sourced information to expand its visitors' knowledge and understanding as opposed to only that which interests everybody. If that were the case, WP would be a vacuous and useless reference source indeed. So instead to trying to remove relevant, accurate, and well sourced "personal life" information from the section of the article on that topic on speciously misapplied "policy and guideline" grounds, why not instead devote your efforts to expanding the sections on his career that you seem to find deficient. That way you can help improve the article instead of trying to diminish it. Centpacrr (talk) 01:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Look, Centpacrr, right now you're edit warring against several editors who just don't see this your way, and it's enough to start thinking about consensus. Right now, I support "In October, 2014, Howe suffered a major stroke, followed by several minor strokes in the weeks following, and as of December 2014 is still under medical care," as the statement that should be in the article, and all the other extraneous detail is no more pertinent than for any other serious medical problem in Howe's life.   Ravenswing   02:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * With respect, sir this is hardly "edit warring", just a difference in views on editorial judgement, and so far you are also the only editor that has expressed a disagreement with what I have posted above. (The other editor who posted in here only commented about my use of the term "red herring" which he misunderstood what I applied it to.) I was also not the OP of the original paragraph on Gordie's stem cell treatment that you objected to and deleted, and my current version is considerably shorter and more concise than that one as well. I have now twice explained in detail exactly why I have edited this the way I have, but instead of addressing any of those points you have elected to now accuse me of edit warring, and all of this about a 70 word paragraph supported by four reliable published sources. As far as I can tell, the only "reason" you seem to be standing on for this position is that you claim this information would not interest "the average Wikipedia reader". If that is indeed your position to support a claim that this material constitutes of a violation of WP "policies and guidelines" then please cite exactly what one(s) you are referring to.


 * With respect, you have provided no evidence whatsoever that these three sentences are not relevant to Gordie's "personal life" (the section they are in), that they are not well and reliably sourced, that they are not true, and that they would not even be of interest the "average Wikipedia reader". If they don't interest you, you are, of course, perfectly free to personally ignore them. But that is not now (nor has it ever been) a valid reason for any editor to deny any information on WP to others. This only constitutes a difference of 42 words, after all, between the current version and the one you support which to me is so pablumized as to be virtually meaningless. Your carrying on this "dispute" over 42 words also hardly seems worth the expense of the now some 1,300+ words -- and the effort to write them -- so far expended in this thread. So with respect I ask you again, why not help improve the article by adding material to the sections you may consider to be deficient instead of seeking to diminish it by removing material that doesn't interest you? Centpacrr (talk) 03:54, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Err ... you HAVE noticed that you've reverted the edits of three editors who've sought to change or truncate those statements? As far as the filibustering on this issue goes, you've written several times as much as I have, and no one forced you to do so.  As far as my rationale for making this change goes, I've explained my reasoning.  You don't like it, and that's obvious, but the nature of a consensus-driven encyclopedia is the approval of any one editor is not a prerequisite for proceeding with edits.  As far as such a statement being "pablum" or "meaningless," nonsense: there is nothing about the name of the clinic, the town it's located in or the precise nature of the procedure that's at all of encyclopedic value, any more than numerous other details equally mentioned in the sources cited and which you elected to leave out.   Ravenswing   04:21, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * You still have not addressed any of the specific points I have raised above or cited any "policies and guidelines" you claim to have been violated. The only "rationale" you seem to be advancing to support your position is a vague claim that this information would not interest "the average Wikipedia reader" which has never been grounds for deletion on WP. By pablumized I mean that the version you support says nothing more then Gordie had a stroke and was treated which thereby completely ignores the seriousness of his condition from the end of October until December 8, and his remarkable recovery literally from death's door after the stem cell treatments. The only "revert" I made was to restore the other OP's paragraph you had deleted in its entirety. The other edits were to tighten it, trim some repetitive information (which you had also deleted previously), and added a couple of new references. As for the rest, see supra. Centpacrr (talk) 05:02, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The only revert? What about ?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:23, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * For what it is worth, I agree with   Ravenswing  . Howe is famous for his hockey exploits, not his stroke.  The stroke should be mentioned but everything else surrounding his recovery is irrelevant.  I would recommend the sentence remain "In October, 2014, Howe suffered a major stroke, followed by several minor strokes in the weeks following, and as of December 2014 is still under medical care." Sxg169 (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is too much as it stands. A few sentences about his recovery are warranted. It can be re-encapsulated at a future date should it grow again, but it is a rather important episode in his life, and given the size of the article, one reasonably-sized paragraph isn't hurting anything. Elizium23 (talk) 22:00, 28 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Gordie is indeed famous for his hockey exploits and that is what the vast majority of the article covers. The two sentences about his devastating October CVA and then miraculous recovery following stem cell therapy six weeks later, however, are in the section of the entry on his non-hockey related "personal life" of which these two closely related events have been both a major element, and have received massive ongoing media coverage and interest by the hockey world. Recognizing that fully in the "personal life" section of this article is therefore not trivial, nor is doing so with two sentences (representing less than 1.5% of the article's total text) hardly of undue length. Centpacrr (talk) 00:22, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
 * It's still way too detailed with things that lack context. "...recognize family members, and his tested ability to name items improved from 20 to 85 percent." is that remarkable or noteworthy? When did he lose the ability to recognize family members? Is 85% a good score? What would you get if you were tested right now? What is this test? And what does this test tell us about Gordie Howe, the hockey player and of his achievements? Echoedmyron (talk) 02:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, please look at the TITLE of the section in which these two sentences appear: "Personal Life". As used in this and many thousands of other Wikipedia articles about notable persons, this is the section title used to discuss the aspects of their personal and family lives that are specifically not related to what makes them notable to the public which in Gordie's case is where non-hockey related material about him is placed. As for context, that is also supplied in exactly the same way it is done in every Wikipedia entry: by multiple cited sources that are linked to the text by numbered footnotes. In the case of these two sentences there are no fewer than five such citations (#'s 20-24). As for your question "And what does this test tell us about Gordie Howe, the hockey player and of his achievements?" the answer is "absolutely nothing", nor, for that matter, is anything else in the "personal life" section of his entry intended to do so either for the reasons stated above. I hope this clarifies your understanding on how Wikipedia is designed to be structured to present information in these areas. Centpacrr (talk) 06:29, 29 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Additional Note: As I noted in my first posting in this thread, Gordie's son Mark (a good personal friend and professional colleague of mine for more than 30 years), has been continuously updating me both by email and in person since early August on Gordie's health situation, and in our most recent one-on-one meeting on December 18 he spent an hour briefing me on every aspect of Gordie's condition following his October stroke, the early December stem cell treatments, and the subsequent remarkable improvement in his condition. Mark's briefing included showing me many photographs and videos (including of the "recognition" tests) of Gordie taken after his stroke in October as well as before and after his treatments at the Novastem clinic. Based on this briefing I am absolutely convinced that the current paragraph accurately reflects the facts it states. And no, this is not "original research" on my part as everything in those two sentences is also fully supported by the five published sources cited in footnotes #s 20-24 in the article's References section. Centpacrr (talk) 07:24, 29 December 2014 (UTC)


 * With all due respect, Centpacrr, this article ultimately requires only a single paragraph to cover his late-life health issues, and the stroke itself requires exactly exactly one sentence to convey all that is encyclopedic: "Howe suffered a series of strokes on " Given his treatments won't reverse the effects of old age, they simply will not be relevant for very much longer, if they even are today. I would add that the occupations of his children and the places they live aren't relevant either. Resolute 19:31, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Given that between here and the various reversions five editors have chimed in against Centpacrr's POV, I've truncated the strokes to a single sentence again, while leaving in Centpaccr's citations. Beyond that, with all due respect, Centpacrr, you're starting to stray into WP:OWN territory, and given your frequent statements about your closeness to and personal contact with the family, perhaps you ought to step back and let other editors take the puck here. If there is information noteworthy enough for Howe's article, other editors can and will submit it.   Ravenswing   21:52, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * While I disagree with the two comments immediately above for all the reasons I have stated earlier which I incorporate here by reference, I will not pursue this particular issue further as at least the five citations I added have been retained. While truncating this denies readers a fuller understanding of Gordie's condition, at least they are provided with an avenue to find out by opening the links to the cited material. However I am again constrained to observe that the concept that the contributions of any editor to the project with demonstrated experience, expertise, and/or first hand knowledge in or of any topic on Wikipedia should be discounted as "POV", "original research", or as being unreliable (especially when the information in their contributions is supported by other reliable cited sources) is shortsighted, counterproductive to the goals of the the Wikipedia Project, and flies in the face of how every other encyclopedia and reference work is produced. I have also tightened the sentence and removed the reference to suffering "a series of small strokes" following the October 26 event. HIs TIAs came in August while staying with Mark in Jackson, New Jersey. What was first thought to be another CVA for which he was hospitalized in late November actually proved to be severe dehydration. Centpacrr (talk) 22:59, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly - the links allow for that "fuller understanding". It's not wikipedia's job to provide up to the minute health updates for anyone.Echoedmyron (talk) 00:37, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * (shrugs) I'll tell you what, Centpacrr.  You find me another credible encyclopedia that discusses the exact facilities and dates on which players get medical treatment, I'll apologize beautifully. (Good luck; the Encyclopedia Britannica entry  on Howe is two paragraphs long.) That being said, you know why Wikipedia doesn't commonly give credence to the expertise of individual editors: because thousands of editors claim to have that expertise.  Most of them are deluded, most of the rest are lying, and we have no idea who's what. Take me, for instance.  I'm demonstrably knowledgeable about hockey.  I've been a coach, a player, a referee, a journalist, a broadcaster, and a season ticket holder for both the pros and college hockey.  I've had hockey articles published.  I've been a SIHR member, sponsored in by Dawson City Seven author Don Reddick, a family friend who played under my father.  My grandfather was an original Bruins season ticket holder, and he was a personal friend of Leo Boivin, Milt Schmidt, Fern Flaman and Jerry Toppazzini.  I've attended matches all over the continent, from the juniors to the UHL to the ECHL to the IHL to the AHL to Div III ECHA to Hockey East to the Cup Finals.  I've held the Calder Cup and the Stanley Cup. And you have no proof of any of that. No one here's ever met me.  It's probable no one ever will. For all you know, some or all of what I just wrote is BS. This is why Wikipedia relies on published, third-party sources for its information.   Ravenswing   02:07, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The reason there is no way to determine what you claim about your hockey background is true or not is obvious to me: because you also choose to edit on Wikipedia anonymously and thus have provided no independent way to judge your bono fedes. I, on the other hand, have chosen to not be an anonymous editor, but one who has been completely open and forthright about my identity, background, and credentials since I first began to contribute to the project in 2006 by providing information about that which can be independntly verified. (See my userpage here.) What I said thus applies only to those who have reliably demonstrated their experience, expertise, and/or first hand knowledge in a subject. Remember also that just because something that is cited has been published is no guarantee that it is reliable, verifiable, or vetted, especially if it is only published on the internet without being independently vetted.
 * As for the issue of "find me another credible encyclopedia that discusses the exact facilities and dates on which players get medical treatment", I have never claimed that there is one. The uniqueness (and a strength) of the Wikipedia Project is that it is edited and updated in real time as opposed to print encyclopedias which are not, but remain static for years, decades, or forever during which time much of their content can also become out of date, obsolete, and/or "stale". Existing only "on line", the size of its articles are also not constrained by the expense and infrastructure required for "hard copy" publishing, a major factor in limiting what is included in such publications. But that is really not the point I was making about the essential difference in overall credibility and authority because of how WP and those other encyclopedias and reference works are produced and edited. The difference is that those other works are not written and edited anonymously but by paid, vetted authors and editors who attach their names to them, and in doing so also accept personal and professional accountability and responsibility for what they produce. Would you, for instance, ever agree to publish any article you have written for SIHR or any other publication or outlet -- even without compensation -- without attaching your name to it? I have had seven books on hockey (3) and North American railroad history (4), and several thousand articles on many non-fiction subjects including hockey published over the past half century and never once did I do so without including my name on any of them. The fact the WP does not require its contributors to identify themselves is the main reason that it's overall credibility often suffers considerably without further crosschecking in comparison to other reference works that do. (See here for a good explanation of why this is the case.) This does not mean that I believe that Wikipedia has no value -- far from it -- only that it should never be treated as if it is "gospel" but instead only as a background tool or guide to information as opposed to "the final word" on anything. Centpacrr (talk) 03:12, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * To play devil's advocate -- and this is the last post I'm making on the subject, because we're straying well off of the purpose of this talk page -- for all we know, you're just linking to Some Guy's website, and none of us have any verifiable proof that you're one and the same. I could just as readily do the same, and link to a hockey research website.  (As to that, though, it wouldn't work, because up until a couple of years ago, I did use my real name on Wikipedia, and as my user page states, flipped to anonymous because I was concerned that my name was splashed all over the Internet as much as it was.  Trying to claim that I was really of the ilk of Klein, Reif, Slate or the like wouldn't fly.)  That being said, if you're dissatisfied at the way Wikipedia operates, this isn't the talk page to make that pitch.   Ravenswing   17:13, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * In addition to one link to HockeyScoop.net (i.e., "Some Guy's website") which I identified as my own hockey history website that contains online copies of some of my published articles (some of which have been cited by others in Wikipedia articles and on many other websits as reliable third party sources) and many photographs, there are also links to the websites over which I have no control or (with the exception of one) input such as the Internet Movie Data Base, HBO Sports, HockeyBuzz.com, Barnes & Noble, Amazon.com, ABE Books, Polyglot Press, and even other Wikipedia entries, as well as eight photographs (some of which also appear on HockeyScoop.net) taken between 1974 and November, 2014, all of which are related to my professional hockey background, experience, appearances in documentary films, and my many works published in print by others. You are, of course, free to personally reject all of these as "not verifiable" if you care to, especially if you never look at the pages they link to. The fact is, however, I have provided both the community and its visitors with as much verifiable information about myself as I reasonably can in order to aid anyone who wishes to evaluate my contributions to the project as well as my level of expertise and experience. The information I have provided there is also far more than is normally disclosed about the contributors to professionally written and edited encyclopedias and reference works published in print, or for that matter in the vast majority of the third party sources cited to support information in WP articles. If this is not good enough for you so be it, but there is really nothing either I or anyone else can do about that. Centpacrr (talk) 23:10, 5 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Seriously: take a good look at the length of this entire passage on this talk page, and then take a look at even the lengthiest passage on the article that this discussion is about. You are obsessing about minutiae. It's way past time to put down the stick and move on.
 * No, I am just responding to the comments of other editors made here pointing out why I disagree with them on points of fact, opinion, and their interpretation of WP policy. There is absolutely nothing wrong with engaging in such discussions in any forum on WP. And by pointing out what I consider to be a fundamental weakness in how the project operates, I might even be able to change the minds of some of them. It wouldn't be the first time I did so! Centpacrr (talk) 23:26, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Copyright Issue
The decision to place the symbol © on a document is entirely a unilateral action on the part of the person who created the document. No government approval is required, and the presence of the symbol does not express or imply any governmental recognition, approval, or other action. At best, it is a claim, on the part of the author, that the material is subject to copyright protection.

As the United States Supreme Court has ruled, however, facts, such as a list of names and addresses in a telephone directory, are not subject to copyright protection. There must be some original contribution to the work, and even if there is, it is only the original input that is entitled to copyright protection. See Feist Publications, Inc. v. Rural Telephone Service Co., 499 U.S. 340 (1991).

John Paul Parks (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Can you be specific as to what you are talking about here? One of the images? The stats? Resolute 16:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Spelling Usage
Howe is a U.S. figure, specifically associated with Detroit, Michigan, and he is primarily of interest to U.S. residents, particularly fans of the Detroit Redwings hockey team. The mere fact that he was born in Canada does not justify the use of Canadian spelling in writing this article. The article should be rewritten to conform to American spelling usage. John Paul Parks (talk) 14:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * No. The person's tie, for the purposes of WP:ENGVAR is reflected in their nationality. As Howe was Canadian, en-ca is the proper format for this article.  No different than an American athlete whose career was primarily spent in Canada should remain en-us (i.e.: Craig Conroy).  Resolute 16:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Do we know whether Howe ever became a naturalized U.S. citizen?John Paul Parks (talk) 22:22, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Even if he was a U.S. citizen, he was a Canadian citizen first, and played for Canada in international events. Therefore, we use Canadian spelling. -- Earl Andrew - talk 14:27, 13 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Even in the most charitable view of your argument, you could only claim no predominant tie to either nation. And that would still mean the existing format retains precedence. Resolute 14:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Incomplete verification for categories
His categories include "Order of Hockey in Canada recipients" and "Officers of the Order of Canada" yet neither seem to be covered with citations in the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Is "National Hockey League players with retired numbers" cited anywhere? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:45, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Or "Canadian Protestants"? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:46, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Or "Canadian people of English descent"? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Or "Canada's Sports Hall of Fame inductees"? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Or "Hart Memorial Trophy winners"? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Dropped Protestants and decent, cited the rest. Teemu08 (talk) 23:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Pullman berth
Side question - what on earth is (or was) a Pullman berth? Mentioned in the article as the reason Howe accepted number 9. StillWaitingForConnection (talk) 01:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

In ye olden tymes, such as when Gordie Howe started playing in 1946, professional hockey teams-and most professional sports teams-traveled by train. Some trips in the "Original 6" NHL, such as from Detroit to Boston, were overnight trips. So, the teams contracted for what were called Sleeper or Pullman Cars. In addition to regular train cars with seats, dining cars, lounge cars, there were cars for sleeping, usually called Pullmans. These were cars equipped with bunks on either side of the aisle, with curtains that provided privacy. Typically the lights were turned out at night with the exception of a few running lights like we have on commercial airlines today for when the pilot turns out the main lights so passengers can try to get some sleep on long flights. The beds were stacked like a regular bunk bed. Gordie's number change afforded him what was considered the better place, the lower berth. Hope that explains it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.178.16.39 (talk) 06:56, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Gordie's place of death
According to Wikipedia, Gordie died in Toledo, Ohio. However, according to a Blade article, he died in the Toledo suburb of Sylvania, Ohio, though no specifics were given other than that, plus a fact that a Sylvania funeral home is arranging for services in Detroit. -- azumanga (talk) 20:54, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

Gordie knocking out Maurice Richard...
There is no proof that this ever occurred. The reference given is an arm of the HHOF which would lead one to believe that whatever they say MUST be truth. However, after much digging, there seems to be no such record of this in the newspapers of the day. I checked the Montreal Gazette and Dink Carroll (who is himself in the HHOF) never mentioned anything about this incident check it here https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=9IU1AAAAIBAJ&sjid=9pgFAAAAIBAJ&pg=4673%2C5115969. As well as the Windsor Daily Star (right across the border from Detroit) here https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=4hI_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=C08MAAAAIBAJ&pg=1714%2C3978222 no mention of this. Maurice Richard was THE superstar at that time, had a rookie knocked him out it would have made the news...I suggest that this sentence be deleted... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.244.76 (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Actually, I've all but confirmed this to be nothing but an urban legend...The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette had an interview with Red Kelly on November 12, 1970, about fighting in hockey.

In the interview, Kelly says that Howe and Richard faced off only once in their career. King Clancy was the ref and allowed the 2 to square off to see "who was the better fighter". After each threw a few punches at each other, Kelly says that Richard slipped and lost his balance and went sliding across the ice on his butt. Sid Abel made a remark towards Richard sitting on the ice. Richard got up and punched Abel, breaking his nose.

Kelly goes on to say, "We never did get to see who was the better fighter between Richard and Howe."

Read the whole article here...https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Z9wNAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zmwDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5098%2C1720725

The Windsor Daily Star reported this fight as well. It occurred on January 29, 1949. According to Howe's wiki article, this apparently happened during his rookie season...not the case. In the article, it reads exactly what Kelly mentions in his 1970's article. However, the original 1949 article also mentions that Richard's follow-through punch on Abel grazed the face of ref Clancy garnering him a game misconduct...

Here's the 1949 article of that game...https://news.google.ca/newspapers?id=5x8_AAAAIBAJ&sjid=qU8MAAAAIBAJ&pg=4999%2C849619

Based on Red Kelly's first-hand on-ice account in his 1970 article, and the actual 1949 post-game article, I am deleting that sentence... 76.64.244.76 (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I have no objections, honestly. We've found, over the years, the HHOF website to be inaccurate about a lot of things, and be far more interested in a good story over a hard fact.  If you've found reliable sources to the contrary, that's good work.   Ravenswing   19:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Thank you. It's insane, but after checking the history of that line in this wiki article... it has been there for 9 and a half years! 76.64.244.76 (talk) 20:17, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

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Simpsons
Just a brief mention in "legacy" for his photo being used in season 3 episode 15? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:AA60:8E00:30CE:8B05:C766:ED8A (talk) 22:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Where gordie lived when he first came to detroit
When gordie Howe first played for the red wings in about 1947, he lived in a rooming (or boarding) house on Lawton, within walking distance of the Olympia. My grandfather lived at 6221 Lawton and he used to see Gordie walking to the Olympia, he said, with his skates slung over his shoulder. I can’t remember the name of the rooming house — something like “Ma’s xxxxx.). Anyway, about 45 years later, I was working at General Motors and the call came that gordie Howe wanted to visit the Detroit-Hamtramck Plant. Sure!  I took him around with great UAW help.  On the way, I asked him about the rooming house on Lawton.  He confirmed that was were he stayed.  He was a nice nice man.  — Anne Marie Sylvester, amgoblue67@gmail.com 2600:1700:BF30:1BE0:3D5D:A76D:44C1:8E7D (talk) 22:29, 14 March 2022 (UTC)