Talk:Gordon Lightfoot/Archive 1

2005
Note:This is my first attempt at a "talk" entry. "If you could read my mind" appears on Barbra Streisand's 1969 "Stoney End" album. &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.247.26.168 (talk • contribs) 07:18, 11 November 2005 UTC.

The album is actually from 1971. I confirmed that "If You Could Read My Mind" was on it and have now included it in the 'Tribute and covers' section of the page. --Shadow007 15:33, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

"Me and Bobby McGee" was redone by Janis Joplin, and is probably her most famous song. GestaltG 06:14, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Kris Kristofferson wrote that song, not Gordon Lightfoot. See the linked article on Krisdtofferson for more detail.  He and Joplin were intimate friends.Lisapollison 16:43, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

The note under Tributes and Covers relative to Elvis changing "cold and drunk as I can be" to "might be" is either incorrect or reversed. Peter Paul & Mary sang it as "might be" well before the Elvis or Dylan versions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Annascaul (talk • contribs) 02:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Blues Singer
I don't agree that the opening line should have Lightfoot as a blues singer. I'd sooner say he was a country singer. Opinions? --Shadow007 00:56, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. The poster could cite a source or else remove it. Verne Equinox 01:13, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * allmusic.com has him classed solely as a folk singer. I'm not inclined to add anything to that, myself. C.Fred 01:21, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll agree with "folk singer" too. I've always considered it simply "folk" music and I've been listening to Lightfoot since I was pre-natal. :) &mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thoughtfix (talk &bull; contribs) 21:57, 24 February 2006 (UTC).


 * How is it that many articles on musicians state that they attended some college and "studied" for 1 year. You can't study Jazz Comp for a year...  there are basic prereqs which have to be completed, such as Music Theory, Harmony, Rythmn... etc, at a music conservatory you might get by without dealving into gen-eds, but you won't slip through the prereqs for any composition class. So, when I read someone "studied" jazz comp for a year, perhaps Introduction (101 level)... I take it as myth building, as I'm sure other schooled musicians do. I recommend it be wordsmithed to read studied First Year Music, with and introduction to Jazz Composition.  But, without school transcripts how could one verify? --


 * Yes, my thoughts too. I would propose it be removed unless someone is able to show cause why it shouldn't. --Shadow007 01:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Pursuant to opinions here I removed ref to Lightfoot being a blues singer. Shadow007 06:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Quibble on non-quote
I have one quibble relating to a quote used in this article.

Specifically, Lightfoot is quoted as referring to the choir master who had:

"taught him how to sing with emotion and how to have confidence in his voice"

That quote cannot be correct, except in the unlikely event that Lightfoot makes a habit of referring to himself in third person.

Ralph Dannheisser

The song featured several times on Trigger Happy TV - I heard of the song via that programme and it definitely wasn't just on once!

Edmund

Image
For God's sake, if we're going to have a fair use picture, we could at least have a decent one from the 70s. john k 22:36, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I've replaced with the album cover image, for now. It is much more iconic for how Gordon Lightfoot is known to look. If we can get a better image, I'm all for it, but a 2006 image capture from Youtube is seriously lame - and not even free. john k 22:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Johnny Cash?
How did Johnny Cash record a cover in 2006 when he died in 2003?213.132.250.2 (talk) 18:45, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Lawsuit
I was able to find a cite for it after it was added to the trivia section but can anyone find me a source that discusses the outcome? i found one that said they settled out of court, but it was from a fan forum. Lisapollison 07:15, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Trivia?
"Lightfoot is referenced in many episodes of the animated TV series Mission Hill, by character Kevin French." was added. Is this good, or should it be deleted?--72.26.185.97 20:05, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

More trivia
IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands 'borrowed' the melody of "The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald" for his song "I Wish I Was Back Home in Derry", composed in the Maze prison, and later recorded by Irish folk singer Christy Moore. 83.88.108.48 11:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Europe and Australia Tour Dates
He toured Europe and Australia, at least up to 1974, as I saw him in Melbourne in 1974, not the date of 1971 as stated. Melbourne was his first gig, and I vividly remember him apologising for his tiredness and jet lag after (I hope he doesn't mind me recalling this) making a few mistakes. Still a wonderful concert though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.182.119.157 (talk) 10:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

That lead paragraph -- ugh!
Over the course of his career, he has written over 400 songs that capture the grandeur of Canada's mountains, forests, lakes, and rivers, the struggle of life in the cities, the loneliness of life on the road, and the eternal drama of love in all its wonders and complexities.

Does anyone else find the lead paragraph utterly POV and fanboy-ish? Or is it just me? (And, incidentally, how would "Black Day In July" fit into the above criteria? :) ) 172.135.185.198 (talk) 06:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's not just you. This needs a rewrite, badly. -- AyaK (talk) 00:22, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Plusthis recent addition to "Legacy: Today, Gordon Lightfoot's influence has transcended the musical world and permeates our popular culture. His songs appear in numerous films and TV series, such as We Are Marshall, Wonderland, The Brown Bunny, Mission Hill, 54, Miracle on 34th Street (1994), Homestar Runner, and Trigger Happy TV as the street painter in sketches from Series 2. His songs and lyrics are referenced in TV shows, such as Seinfeld, Becker, 3rd Rock From The Sun and Mission Hill. He is referenced in numerous publications as a "Canadian icon" by politicians, writers, artists, historians, and most importantly the Canadian people.

This is a classic example of WP:Peacock and should probably be reverted - soon - unless the editor revises it. Sensei48 (talk) 06:24, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Discography
I cleaned up the discography a bit, adding Canadian chart info from RPM magazine. If you're wondering why "Ribbon of Darkness" and "For Lovin' Me" were deleted from the singles list, it's becasue they were actually b-sides to the hits "I'm Not Sayin" and "Just Like Tom Thumb's Blues". 141.117.210.184 (talk) 04:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Alcoholism
is this aspect not deemed worth mentioning? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.208.161 (talk) 06:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * And what evidence can be cited for "this aspect" that would meet WP policies such as WP:V, WP:RS? Dl2000 (talk) 20:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Lightfoot has openly discussed his problems with alcoholism prior to 1982. See this 1999 article.  Or this 2001 article.  So it's verifiable through reliable sources.  And it's relevant not only to his life and first marriage breakup but also to his fundraising for Renascent House. -- AyaK (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Needs a Discography article
Anyone else think he needs his own discography article? It's simply too long for this page. I'd be glad to help anyone who wants to do one. Blackngold29 (talk) 03:27, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Steps To Improve This Article
Gordon Lightfoot is a major artist in his genre of music who deserves better and more serious treatment than most of this article affords him. I realized the futility of of trying to fix this piecemeal when I added a citation needed tag to an especially egregiously POV statement.

I am a huge fan of Lightfoot and have been throughout his career, and I commend the original primary author(s)/editor(s) of this article for his/her/their energy and thoroughness. It would make an outstanding - exemplary, even - fan page or blog.

As an encyclopedia article, however, its lack of citation, its WP:Peacock tone and phrasing, and its stylistic informality make it a nearly complete failure.

I propose the following changes,adhering to the original structure of the article:

a) Given the fact that a very large number of GL albums are mentioned by name and discussed in the text - and given the tangential importance of the actual artists performing covers to the actual discussion of Lightfoot - those two sections need to be spun off into a single separate page.

b) The citations provided for direct quotations are commendable, but the article needs at least twenty more references for facts that need support - likely more than that. I'll add some fact|date tags and believe that other editors who care about giving Lightfoot his due in a real encyclopedia entry could do the same.

c) Style needs attention. In addition to converting a very large number of fanzine/peacock type statements to more straightforward factual ones, informalities of style like contractions need to be corrected/removed.

d) POV statements about Lightfoot and his importance and qualitative judgments about songs/albums need to be replaced by sourced observations by qualified/recognized reviewers and critics.

All four of these (and any others) CAN be done - but only with quite a bit of serious work. And I'd reiterate that I would like to see the integrity of the original structure maintained - it is the treatment that needs to be improved. Sensei48 (talk) 06:04, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Conflict
The article states that he moved to California in 1958. Later he is described as a Canadian who achieved stardom without having to move to the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.69.23.96 (talk) 12:37, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

The stroke
Have added brief mention of Lightfoot's 2006 stroke and the adjustments he has made to his performance since then. If someone can improve on my references, please do. Durwoodie (talk) 12:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The information is wrong. The fact that it was reported does not make it true. I never suggested that negative information should not be included; only that erroneous information, when negative, should be removed quickly. I suggest you look at the Don Quixote video from February 2007 on You Tube. I consider that visual evidence enough proof that the news reports you quote do not have their facts right. Vlmagee (talk) 22:56, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem is "I consider that visual evidence enough proof" - not by Wiki standards when there are two published sources from reputable outlets that the previous editor used to support the contention. Your statement above as quoted is intuitive and not sourcing and could constitute WP:OR. To remove or re-edit the objectionable information, you'll have to find a source with some allusion like "full recovery" after the 2006 incident. FWIW - I agree with your point, having been a GL fan for 45 years and having seen him in concert earlier this year. If there has been any diminution of his skills, it's been slight and in his vocals, likely more a natural matter of age. But  my impressions do not constitute sourcing. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 00:14, 5 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, you could use the article on my web site as sourcing. Unfortunately, little was written about this and to my knowledge nobody else followed up 2007, nor did anyone ask him about it in an interview (which I would consider insensitive to do at this point, and I would not ask him should I interview him again (I interviewed him in 2002; you can find that article on my site as well)). You'll note that it was not a "stroke", but a TIA, which is something different, and something from which people usually fully recover. Anyhow, do with it what you wish, but if the rules don't permit editors to remove statements that are not true, even if there are sources that say it, then Wikipedia is the poorer for it. Here's the link: . My site used to be listed here (and I am not the person who added it), but I see that it has been removed. To my knowledge Wayne's site is not "official" either. Previously both were listed here. Anyhow, that's my input. Hope you can use my web page as an adequate justification for updating that section. It is really unfortunate. Vlmagee (talk) 17:17, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input and the kinks, and for your site, which I've known for a long time and consider excellent. I would think that the link provided would be sufficient for sourcing an addition/edit to the article. However, the idea that Wiki rules about sourcing are somehow deficient needs addressing. You run a personally-created fansite and can put up pretty much what you want, including information that you derive from, for example, personal contact (formally in an interview or informally) or individual knowledge. But you can't do that in an encyclopedia, or in fact in any published work that has any pretence at all to scholarship.


 * The problem here is that both sources after the offensive sentences are reputable - Armstrong writes for the Ottawa Sun and is so identified, and the Vailliencourt article from OnMilwaukee.com is from as solid a site for music reviews as you'll find. There are plenty of people out there who edit on Wiki who are sure that, for example, Elvis Presley is alive despite all the sourced, published info about his death. Should they be able "to remove statements that are not true, even if there are sources that say it"? Or does it make sense to require any statement that Elvis is alive to have sourcing from a WP:RS? The point of the sourcing policy is to prevent where possible just such ridiculous statements that someone holds as factual from making their way into articles - which, if you have any experience working on Wikipedia, is a constant and ongoing issue with a multitude of articles.


 * Having said that - the real problem with the statement about the TIA is that the sources quoted do not support the statement made in the article. The editor who sourced the statement asserts that GL's fingerpicking problems are ongoing or current; the articles are tied to a specific place and time. I'll see to correcting this. regards,  Sensei48 (talk) 18:45, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Great! I am glad that you found a solution which addressed my concern, and enabled you to stay within Wikipedia guidelines. A perfect solution! I haven't poured over the two references, but Lightfoot never "used a substitute guitar player", that is another person. His regular lead guitar player (for the most part), and his bass player, took on a bit more of the playing, but nobody was added to the band. This isn't an important point, so I am not terribly concerned. Thank you for a good dialogue, and for following through. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vlmagee (talk • contribs) 21:01, 8 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, then let's go the distance and get it really correct by eliminating the misleading reference to a "substitute guitarist." I'm guessing that any lead-type parts were handled during this brief time by Terry Clements, but I'll wait for you to confirm that before re-wording the section to reflect that - or of course, you can do that yourself if you like. regards, Sensei48 (talk) 22:25, 8 November 2009 (UTC)