Talk:Goryuns

Any peer-reviews of the subject? No peer review, no screen time on Wikipedia. --Ghirla-трёп- 06:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The only mention of them in Google Books runs as follows: "Along the Seim and Desna rivers, one group of Russian settlers mixed with local Belarusians and Lithuanians. They called themselves the Polekh... and saw themselves as a distinct group within the larger Russian community. The Goryuns were a subgroup of the Polekhs, who lived in the Kursk Guberniya that for years was part of Ukraine". --Ghirla-трёп- 12:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Деякі етнографічні групи росіян, зокрема горюни, що живуть у Путивльському районі Сумської області, етногенетично пов'язані з місцевим давньослов'янським автохтонним населенням. Russianname 15:14, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Where did you see here any mentioning of Kievan Rus? What was the reason for this edit?

Why did you replace more pürecise info from an academic source by s less precise ?--AndriyK 21:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC) As far as you disapeared, I undo your changes. If you disagree, please state your arguments here when you are back.--AndriyK 08:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * It is not precise, it is distorted. The exact info is: ancient slavs, so the Goryuns lived here before Kievan Rus. --Russianname 16:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Please cite a reference confirming your claim "Goryuns lived here before Kievan Rus".--AndriyK 06:07, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
 * What? Look one of my previous posts and please stop vandalizing the article: * Деякі етнографічні групи росіян, зокрема горюни, що живуть у Путивльському районі Сумської області, етногенетично пов'язані з місцевим давньослов'янським автохтонним населенням. Ancient Slavs is a historical period before the kievan Rus. Read your Ukrainian textbook again. --Russianname 08:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources about Goryuns
What do the sources provided in the article say about their origins? We should write in the article exactly what sources tell us. Alæxis¿question? 17:32, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

(These questions were copied from Talk:Russians in Ukraine).--AndriyK 08:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There are at list two sources saying something about it. This one mentions Goryuns briefly, saying that they are related to local authochtonous Slavic population, whithout giving any details, without explaining what exactly mean the word "authochtonous" in this context, to which historical period it related, etc.
 * There is another source, the article by F.D. Klimchuk. Goryuns are the central subject of this article, and all available information is analysed in details. In particular, Klimchuk wrote:

первые упоминания о горюнских сёлах на Путивльщине относятся к ХVI в., т.е. они упомянуты через сравнительно непродолжительное время после того, как этот край вошел в состав Московской Руси. В Путивльском крае после 1500 г. поселились русские однодворцы, а горюны – более ранние поселенцы в этом регионе.


 * That is there is no any historycal data about Goryuns before 16th century. Even the assertion that they lived in the region in the times of Grand Duchy of Lithuania is a plausible assumption rather than firmly established fact.


 * Moreover, their connection to the local, Sieverian, population is just a hypothesis. Other hypotheses that assume their migration from the North are also considered:

Не исключено, что это преимущественно потомки одной из местных групп северян, которая в эпоху Великого княжества Литовского испытала влияние белорусской языковой стихии. Не исключены и иные варианты. Может быть, это группа северянско-радимичского происхождения. А возможно потомки северянской группы, переселившиеся на северо-запад, а после, сохраняя историческую память, вернулись обратно.


 * User:Russianname prefers to ignore the article by Klimchuk and insists on using exclusively the info from the first of the two mentioned soutces, where Goryuns are mentined briefly. Moreover he was insisting on his own interpretation, involving Kievan Rus, , although the sources say nothing about Kievan Rus.
 * Reverting the article, User:Russianname restore typos that were corrected by other users .--AndriyK 09:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Severyans are the ancient Slavic tribe, who existed long before the Grand Duchy and hence before the Kievan Rus. Please do not pust your POV without sources. Klimchuk and all other researches know that the Goryuns are decsendands of the Severyans and they know that they are Russians.Стикання різних етносів — українців і росіян, як і багатоетапність формування їхньої культури, позначилося на утворенні серед росіян українсько-російського прикордоння низки етнографічних груп, генетичне пов'язаних із давньоруським населенням. Серед них — «поляхи», власне, мешканці Полісся у межиріччі Десни та Сейму, котрі мають давні спільні етнокультурні коріння з білорусами; «саяни» Курщини, з'єднані з білорусами й литовцями, як і «горюни» Сумщини, «цукани» Воронежчини --Russianname 13:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

В XVI-XVII ст. територія Путивльщини інтенсивно заселяється як вихідцями з центральних районів Росії, так і українськими селянами і козаками. В кількох селах поселились і білоруси, які змішавшись з місцевим населенням, утворили окрему етнографічну групу - “горюни”.
 * Please read carefully, this is only one of the hypothesis. Radimich orgin is not excluded.
 * The fim fact as that thir villages were mentioned for the first time only in 16th century.--AndriyK 13:06, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * "Генетично пов'язані із давньоруським населенням" means only that they are related to the population of old Rus, i.e. that they are Eastern Slavs. It does not mean how ever that they live on the same territory (around Putyvl) from the times of Kievan Rus. Here is one more hypothesis:
 * --AndriyK 13:14, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Goryuns are Russians and they are descendants of ancient Slavs: Деякі етнографічні групи росіян, зокрема горюни, що живуть у Путивльському районі Сумської області, етногенетично пов'язані з місцевим давньослов'янським автохтонним населенням.  --Russianname 13:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The Goryuns are autochtonous and based on the ancient Slavs but in the same time they were influenced by the Russian settlers of later times:  Одна з них — горюни — автохтонне руське населення, що сформувалось у XVI ст. на основі давньослов'янського населення Посейм'я та переселенців XVI—XVII ст.  --Russianname 13:01, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 01:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "conf" :
 * F.D. Klimchuk, About ethnoliguistic history of Left Bank of Dnieper (in connection to the ethnogenesis of Goriuns). Published in "Goriuns: history, language, culture" Proceedings of International scientific conferenc, (Institute of Linguistics, Russian Academy of Sciences, February 13, 2004)

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