Talk:Gotham City/Archive 1

Untitled question
"a federal edict cut off the city from the rest of the country"

why was this done?


 * i believe it was declared a "no man's land" by the federal government in the comic of the same name. I think the reason was because there were so many costumed freaks running around gotham... but i could be wrong. gotham is now no longer a no man's land and that period is sometimes referred to as "NML", specifically by characters in gotham central.-Runciblerabbit 15:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Following an earthquake, Gotham City was officially abandoned by the United States and declared No Man's Land. This lasted about a year. It's actually quite a good story arc. -- SamSim 22:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

map
How can I add a picture of the map of Gotham City?

Underground Railroad
I have changed material regarding Batman Begins which claimed that Gotham was located in the American South because Wayne Mannor was a stop on the Underground Railroad. The Underground Railroad extended up the east coast all the way to Canada, into the Midwest, and west to Mexico. The tidbit in the movie does not place Gotham in the South, but anywhere along this route. I've adjusted the paragraph to refer to the east coast route because it is the route most popularly used in popular culture. ~CS 18:02, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Mutant Leader
Elfguy recently merged the article "The Mutant Leader" with this one. I have made the following changes to this action:


 * The Mutant Leader formally redirected here. I changed that redirect to a more appropriate article, Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.


 * I removed the wikilink to The Mutant Leader in the [Batman: The Dark Knight Returns]] article, as it redirected to itself.


 * The material about the Mutant Leader here consisted wholey of material from the Batman: The Dark Knight Returns article. As the Mutant Leader doesn't have any more relvence on this article as any other Batman villian, I removed the subsection from this article entirely.  If The Mutant Leader isn't going to have an article dedicated to himself (I agree, he's not important enough to) then the appropiate place would be in the book he appears in, not a tangically related article. ~CS 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Crime Alley
I removed the following, recently merged from Crime Alley:


 * In the graphic novel Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, an elderly Bruce Wayne also chooses Crime Alley as the setting for his dramatic showdown with Superman, who had been enlisted by the United States government to defeat Batman.  Using various tricks and with the help of the Green Arrow, Batman defeats his rival and afterwards fakes his own death.
 * In the graphic novel Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, an elderly Bruce Wayne also chooses Crime Alley as the setting for his dramatic showdown with Superman, who had been enlisted by the United States government to defeat Batman.  Using various tricks and with the help of the Green Arrow, Batman defeats his rival and afterwards fakes his own death.


 * The alley has also been portrayed in film. In Batman and Batman Forever, flashbacks are seen of Bruce watching his parents being killed by a thug named Jack Napier, who would later become the Joker.  In the former film, Vicki Vale also spots an adult Bruce laying flowers on the street.  In the reboot of the Batman films, Batman Begins, the murder is seen in more detail, with Joe Chill depicted as the shooter.

I removed this because it was way too bloated to appear in the the succinct "Notable places" list. Perhaps some of it could be re-worked into the main part of the article? A section on "The Wayne Murders" might be appropriate.

Additionally, I think some of this may be superfluous: Do we really need a summery of the end of Batman: The Dark Knight Returns in an article about Gotham City? Is that Crime Alley appears in three Batman movies really worth mentioning? What is significant about their renditions of Crime Alley that make it worth dedicating a lengthy description in the article?

I think this is a product of Crime Alley being merged without being disseminated throughout the article appropriately -- the content was appropriate in that article, but not copied and pasted into this one. ~CS 03:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Location in New Jersey?
The current version of the article goes as follows:
 * Current Batman comics state that Gotham City is located in New Jersey, with recent maps closely following the geography of southern Ocean County, with Gotham City's location nearly matching that of the Mystic Island section of Little Egg Harbor Township.

If this is true, it needs to be cited. I'm not a current reader of Batman comics, but I was up until the mid-1990s, and Gotham City was never stated outright in the comics to be in any one state in any issue I ever read (the same went for Metropolis, except for an early 1940s issue which said "Metropolis, NY"), so I would be surprised if this policy was changed recently. If Gotham City has directly been stated to be in New Jersey proper, then give the issue number for outside verification. If this is someone's conjecture based on clues in the comics that hint at Gotham City being in New Jersey, then that needs to be said in order for this article to be as accurate as possible. Kaijan 23:59, 24 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I am not the author of this paragraph, but in discussions held elsewhere, the justification for Gotham's location in New Jersey is from Shadow of the Bat Annual #1. ("Joe Public" by Alan Grant and Trevor Von Eeden, a "Bloodlines" crossover issue.) This issue contains an image of a Gotham driver's licence which, if I recall correctly, gives an address of "Gotham County, New Jersey."  I'm not certain this is enough to say it is explicit, or an insubstantial clue. ~CS 18:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Was it directly stated that Gotham City is in Gotham County? (Is there any kind of precedent for a large city having a bordering, but out-of-state, county named for it?) -- 68.14.138.223 07:04, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Since no evidence has been offered to document the assertion, I'm going to remove it. --Chancemichaels 16:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels
 * The driver's license as depicted in that issue was in fact referring to "Gotham City, NJ", to quote the text directly. Scans of the relevant page should be possible. - DEW, 19 October 2006.

GCPD Poster
Image:GCPD.JPG was recently removed from this article over copyright concerns.

This image is originally from a two-page spread in Batman Secret Files #1. Published in 2000. Pencils are by Jeff Moy, inks by W.C. Carani and colors by Tom McCraw.

If the image is to remain, the uploader needs to justify how this image falls under under fair use. The low-resolution of the image is a start -- and could possibly use an art tag. ~CS 16:31, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Chicago influences?
The article currently says
 * The 2005 film Batman Begins places Gotham somewhere near the American east coast, as Alfred comments that the caverns beneath Wayne Manor that are to be converted into the Batcave were once used by a Wayne ancestor to hide escaping slaves in the Underground Railroad. In addition, various camera shots reveal a geography similar to but not the same as New York City.

Batman Begins was shot in Chicago. The license plates in the movie are from Illinois. Chicago is known for an extensive above-ground commuter rail system.

Additionally, architectural styles are in the same vein. I've always suspected Gotham gets at least some influence from the Second City. Is this substantiatable enough to mention in the article?

MrShoggoth 02:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * In the Gotham City Rises section of the second disk of the Batman Begins Deluxe Edition DVD, director Christopher Nolan directly states, "I wanted the look of Gotham to have a recognizable texture, like a sort of 'New York on steroids.'", and then later, "...What I wanted to do was build up the world of Gotham, as a sort of exaggerated contemporary New York." New York's prominence in the mind of the director is here stated.
 * However, openly admitted, it was not the only one: as production designer Nathan Crowley proceeds to elaborate, "We'd taken trips to New York...Gotham's always been based on New York...and to Chicago, and we'd been looking at places like the Wuyangcheng city [Guangzhou] and Hong Kong...really looking around, how we were going to go about designing a city."
 * Yet those were still not the only influences, as the description thereafter follows, from one of the visual effects supervisors (VES), Paul Franklin, as to the methodology used to creates such scenes as the sprawling shot of the city as a whole at dawn, seen from Wayne's private jet: "...Chris[topher Nolan] wanted a degree of realism which he felt he hadn't seen before in visual effects work. He really wanted to show just what a monstrously overwhelming place Gotham City is..." This was accomplished by, as fellow VES Janek Sirrs then explains, "...So you essentially build buildings in 3D, but you map photographs onto them; so you can get the shape from 3D modeling, and then you can get the photographic reality from photos taken actually in Chicago. We shot something maybe like, er, a million photographs on this, as this showed...sort of gathering all the possible sources from Chicago we could, day and night, rain, sun, snow, the whole thing."
 * References elsewhere, to some structures themselves being images from places such as Pittsburgh, alluding back to the many cities reviewed and studied by designers such as Crowley, to give the architectural style of Gotham as a whole. Judging by the images actually in the movie, the architecture was a mishmash of all possible American forms, but, rationally, with Chicago and New York, the historical leading cities by far in architectural design for the nation, at the head of the pack. --Chr.K. (talk) 14:53, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Pittsburgh?
I was curious as to the reference to Pittsburgh. Could someone cite a source on this one? These aren't the only two cities with Gothic architecture, so what sets Pittsburgh apart?
 * possibly the Cathedral of Learning. I've read the Pittsburgh reference before elsewhere, though I'm not sure where.--Chris Griswold 14:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Until somebody can provide evidence, I'm removing the reference. Please feel free to put back in if you can support it.  --Chancemichaels 20:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Out-of-universe perspective
Much of this article is written in an "in-universe perspective", that is, it presents the history and geography of Gotham City as if it were a real place. The guideline Writing about fiction argues against this, in part because in-universe writing has a tendency to promote original research. Possible examples of this in the Gotham City article are the specific dates about police corruption — what's the source for saying that the events of Batman: Year One took place in 1986? (It was published in 1987, and I think that DC's current chronology has it taking place "twelve years ago" or something like that.)

I'm not enough of a Batman expert to attempt the rewrite myself, but it would be great if someone could rebuild this article to comply with WP:WAF. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:28, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been rewriting to OOU. and according to The history in 52, yeah, it's about 12 years from the appearance of superman to the current 'one year later' setting. ThuranX 18:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks, ThuranX. It's already looking better. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:41, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I used 'radical' becaues entire blocks and major landmarks were removed and new ones added, including, IIRC, a new police building, major redesigns to the Penguin's clubs and buildings, a new Arkham, and other changes to the layout and major centers of the city. The story compared it to the 1906 Cisco quake, which allowed basically a new city to be built on the rubble of the old. that constitutes 'radical' change by any reasonable examination of the word's relevant definition, even by 'out-of-universe perspective.ThuranX 05:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the landmarks and some of the architecture were changed radically, but the sentence actually said that the storylines "allowed writers to radically change the nature and mood of the city". I'm not sure that the nature and mood of Gotham City changed significantly after those storylines — it's still the same hard-bitten, vaguely corrupt city it always was.


 * I don't object hugely to "radical", but I personally think most of the changes post-NML were cosmetic. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * That it has trended back to the generic may be the case, but right after those stories, there wre many 'john q public' reference to being tough enough to survive in gotham, and for a few years we've seen references to the schism between those who stayed, and those who either fled and returned, (called 'returners' for a time) or who moved to Gotham after. There were lingering plotlines and characteristics ofthe populace which originated in that trio. (Also, I used 'trio' instead of 'three storylines' to reinforce the group/set nature of the three, in that each built on and directly continued the previous, instead of them being any three storylines.) ThuranX 05:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not adamant about the change; you can restore the prior wording if you like. I thought that "trio" was slightly unclear, since it usually refers to three people rather than three of an abstract concept like storylines.  (I actually considered replacing "trio" with "three linked storylines" instead, but decided against "linked" because it was too wordy.)


 * I do recall the portrayals of the resilient citizens of Gotham you're talking about — I think that Ed Brubaker's stories in particular highlighted this quality. I suppose I just saw the change as more organic than radical — but as I say, it's not something I feel strongly about. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Which issue of 52 says Batman has been around 12 years? As far as I know, that's an old timeline, the one from Zero Hour #0. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 10:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Ask the Answer Man
Unfortunately, I don't have access to my old comic collection now to track down the exact publication information of the Ask the Answer Man column. However, I believe that it is confirmable by someone who still has their 1970s DC issues -- the column ran in all DC publications for that month. In order to attract such research, it seems to me that it would make sense to leave in the reference to the Ask the Answer Man column and note that the exact reference should be tracked down. On the New Jersey location, the DC Universe guide published by Mayfair in connection with the role-playing game had a map that depicted Gotham City as being in New Jersey. That can be cited for the New Jersey reference. That guide pretty much contradicted all the Ask the Answer Man details, I believe. Acsenray 18:00, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

verb tenses
Although issue by issue events may use present tense at all times, things tied to established historical events are the past bothe for the reader and the character, who 'currently exists' in an analogue of the modern world in his own continuty. I have edited the article to reflect such things. ThuranX 20:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Again. Given that the character and the continuity set green lantern in the modern world, his actions during world war 2 are in the past. As such, I have edited to reflect such. Finally, SP:CMC has no more authority than anything else on wiki, so your little bully club can go away if you don't like it. ThuranX 06:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't appreciate your usual attitude. The WikiProject Comics guidelines merely reflect Wikipedia:Guide to writing better articles, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style, and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Comics. So it's not just WP:CMC. Try keeping your attitude to yourself. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 09:06, 1 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Try not to be a bully, though you clearly are, since you're self-declared as such. The policy is wrong. It's simply bad, unscholarly writing. Huck Finn is different at the end of the book. He has changed. his state at the beginning and end do NOT co-exist. Jim is NOT both slave and free at once. Characters change nad have histories. Otherwise, there's no point in writing a story. NO one cares about a character who never changes, never does anything, and never experiences. "Fred sat there." repeated for 300 pages is a lousy novel. Fred is still in the seat, and that's that. Likewise, all these characters experience, and evolve. Finally, WW2 is in the past, in the real world, in the comic world, and in Alan Scott's history. You can bully all you want, since it's pretty much all you ever do, but I'm not backing down. ThuranX 17:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This is not the first time I have asked you not to make personal attacks, nor is it the first time on this page. I have never claimed to be a bully; I made a userbox about being a bully as a joke that is not even on my userpage. I also made a Steelers fan userbox but am not a Steelers fan. See how that works? I can pick up an issue of All-Star Comics and Alan Scott currently lives in Gotham. That's how that works. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Having been pointed to this debate by ThuranX from WT:WAF, I should note that I think he might have misunderstood my comments there, so I'll clarify them here. Out-of-universe perspective implies present tense; it also implies grounding the fiction with real-world language (such as issue number, publication history, etc.). This section that appears to be in dispute doesn't do the latter; ThuranX seems to assert that this makes it difficult to understand. I'd argue that the present tense is correct, but should probably be accompanied by some connection to the real world. For example, instead of saying, "Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Lantern, was based there before World War II..." (which doesn't make it immediately clear to the casual reader whether the depiction was made before WWII, or whether the comics themselves are set in WWII), a better way of wording this would be: "Issues #Y-Z of This Series, which are set during World War II, place Alan Scott, the Golden Age Green Latern, in Gotham City." Also, I'd advise both ThuranX and Chris to be mindful of the three-revert rule. — TKD::Talk 18:07, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right; the more out-of universe the better. I just have gotten tired of dealing with Thuranx who repeatedly calls well-intentioned editors "bullies." It's just difficult to work someone like that. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 18:32, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Why I disagree with your reverts: We do not use the word "current", comic book series titles should be italicized, and the issue depicts - in present tense - the past tense flashback. Also, it's best to take it easy on commas. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 19:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * By your own admission, it is a flashback. By any common sense definition, even if you view the issue as a whole as the present, the flashback is still the past. Therefore, she liveD there, past tense, no other way to report it. There is no issue in which the entire story is set in gotham, focusing upon her, as a 'present tense' issue, merely flashbacks to a time before the present when she lived there. You already compromised on it, and now you've gone back on that. I feel that your word is worthless, and have zero confidence in your Good Faith. I also believe that you are only pursuing this in the hopes of getting me in a 3RR violation so you can pursue administrative recourse. I will not give you that satisfaction. ThuranX 19:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It is really miserable trying to work with you. You immediately jump to conclusions, levy accusations of bullying, and make personal attacks. Please read about good faith because in the interactions I have had with you, you have not exhibited it toward me or other well-intentioned editors you diagree with. Yes, it's a flashback. The present tense is still used to say "the issue presents a flashback." --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 23:21, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I've been trying to find a kind way to reply, but there is none. You're a bully, and right now you're playing the 'poke them till they poke back, then cry to the authority figure' game. I'm not going  to play. if you think that the above phrasing really was a solution, you'd have used it long ago, avoiding this fight. Instead, you said that you accepted it as a compromise, and as soon as you got your way on other parts of this edit, you went back on your word. I have a lower opinion of you now than I had before. ThuranX 00:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Re:"The policy is wrong. It's simply bad, unscholarly writing." This isn't the place to debate that. This is Wikipedia's playground. We play by their rules. If you deliberately violate their style guides, it is inevitable that your contribution will simply be undone. I agree that the whole past/present tense thing gets strange and bizarre at times in ways that weird me out. In fact, when adding to an article, I tend to stick with whatever tense it's already in even when I know it should be present because (1) I don't feel like editing the tense in the entire article (well, unless it's just a stub anyway) and (2) the article's text needs to look consistent. Almost every English instructor I know would prefer that you make certain errors consistently if you must make them at all. Regarding the past tense for a flashback within a present tense scene, I'd probably have written the flashback in past tense myself, but I wouldn't have taken offense when somebody else fixed it. I sure wouldn't have gone through the trouble to change text throughout an article to word it in a way I know Wikipedia says not to do. I don't understand wasting time on edits I know will not be allowed to stay. Doczilla 00:24, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Mayors
both Hill and Kroll are currently listed as being mayor in the run up to Knightfall. Can we get some citations to clarify this? thanks. ThuranX 17:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Mayors Info at this url: Scroll down a bit http://obscure.dcuguide.com/Board/BatmanChars4.htm Enda80 13:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)Enda80


 * That's the same damn forum chatter as someone posted up here in it's LENGTHY entirety before. It's a FORUM. Find a real citation. ThuranX 20:24, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Poem
I've cleaned up the formatting a bit... though I'm unsure if the section should be included at all. It it should, there needs to be some clarity about which series saw Batman recite the poem. — J Greb 15:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I went ahead and removed it. In addition to almost every sentence needing a citation, most of the introduction ins unclear  and poorly written, reprinting an entire poem violates copyright, and there needs to be some form of indication that a) Wright intended the poem to be about Batman's Gotham City or b) someone involved with creating a Batman story was influenced by the poem.  As it stands, this paragraph appears to be purely speculation. ~CS 17:56, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

The Gotham City poem
This famous poem brought Gotham City to life, it made history, and was used as an example of Gotham City ever since it was written by renown poet James Arlington Wright in 1962. This poem was so graphic that the actual producers of the Batman series used it as a guideline in making the city background. Also in the sixth episode the poem is actually said by Batman when he is ovelooking the city. The following is the poem written by James Wright that would change Gotham City forever.


 * Gotham City
 * The Darkness stalks the night
 * Street Gangs Roam
 * Rich men are afraid to walk the city in darkness
 * For fear of being mugged by filthy ragged criminals
 * People stalk the street like packs of hungry beasts
 * Just for a single cell of food to enrich them in the glory of taste
 * A man walks through an alleyway
 * gold shining on his wrist
 * A man whos face can not be recognised grabs him
 * Bearing a knife
 * The man struggles, and the last sight, a knife plunges into his heart
 * He falls, silence
 * The sound of rising sirens echo through Gotham City once again

Fictional City in NJ
Since the location of Gotham is essentially unresolved, shouldn't it be removed from this cat? Also... is the same the case for Bludhaven? — J Greb 00:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I always assumed (from its name) that Blüdhaven was a "dark" version of New Haven, Connecticut, or what New Haven might have been like if it weren't for Yale. So, more like Bridgeport, Connecticut, really.


 * As for the category, I agree that the evidence is far too equivocal to include.—Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 04:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Is the NJ location confirmed anywhere at all? --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 03:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Since the article addresses the issue of the lack of a DC editorially endorsed 'permanent' location for GC< i'v removed the category. ThuranX 04:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay -- sorry this took so long. Here is the panel in question. It is from Batman: Shadow of the Bat Annual #1.  1993, DC Comics. Written by Alan Grant, pencils by Trevor von Eeden, inks by Dick Giordano:




 * Please note -- I do not think that this image should be used to claim that Gotham City is unabmigiously in New Jersey. As far as I know, this is the only time DC Comics has published something to this effect, and I believe that all it proves is that New Jersey is one of the many places Gotham has kinda-sorta been located in over the years of publishing Batman stories.  But -- it was published, so perhaps there's a need to mention this. ~CS 00:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Origin of Gotham?
The Wise Men of Gotham [were], in English legend, wise fools, villagers of Gotham, Nottinghamshire, Eng. The story is that, threatened by a visit from King John (reigned 1199-1216), they decided to feign stupidity and avoid the expense entailed by the residence of the court. Royal messengers found them engaged in ridiculous tasks, such as trying to drown an eel and joining hands around a thorn bush to shut in a cuckoo. Hence, the king determined to stay elsewhere. The "foles of Gotham" are mentioned in the 15th-century Wakefield plays. Merrie Tales of the Mad-Men of Gottam, a collection of their jests, was published in the 16th century. Copyright 1994-1999 Encyclopedia Britannica

How Gotham Came to Be a Reference to New York City Washington Irving applied the name to New York in an issue of a humorous magazine named Salmagundi. The name, by Washington Irving's time, had long been associated with stupidity, even though the original story was actually about a kind of twisted cleverness. Washington Irving thought this just the name to give to a city which he believed was inhabited by fools.


 * None of that really matters. Stop trying to make a WP:POINT. Your edits were reverted by more than one editor, and tendentious editing is not considered WP:CIVIL. You're already using two accounts to pick your fights. Please stop. thank you. ThuranX 23:01, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I beg to differ on one point or two... The etymology of the term is relevnt, as is reinforcing the fact/fiction divide. — J Greb 23:03, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel like the original editor was being disruptive, blanking parts of the passage and adding the new information in ways that removed other information or made the passages confusing. J Greb's re-write was clear, succinct and complete.  The story of Got-ham doesn't need a lot of page space in this, an article devoted to Gotham City, but that's not to say it shouldn't be there at all.  I think J Greb's edit accomplishes this well.  ~CS 23:34, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Not sure about all that, but you've written a reasonable compromise that I'm willing to let stand. We'll see if the vandal accepts it. ThuranX 23:27, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Cooperation! Awesome! --Chris Griswold (  ☎

☓ ) 23:51, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel the architecture bit in the intro should be moved under the architecture tab, the Dennis O'Neil quote moved out of the intro, greater emphasis on the etymology of the term "Gotham" would be nice, and a greater divide between fact and fiction would strengthen the article. However, I am willing to compromise.

The term "Gotham Bank" appears on a wall plaque in the movie Baby Face (1933) starring Barbara Stanwyck. That is after her character has just arrived in New York City. This reference would preceed most of the comic book references.


 * yes, but it's not really worth adding to the article, as we've covered the major points of the usage already. ThuranX 03:55, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

O'Neil Quote
I love the O'Neil quote we currently have in the introduction to this article. I think it is an important illustration of the tone of the city, and I'd hate to see it removed. Unfortunatly -- it may be, because it as long sat without a citation. Google reveals several variations on this idea, some attributed to O'Neil, others attributed to Frank Miller.

I have found a reputable print source for this line. Unfortunatly, it's only half of the line in question. the Batman: Knightfall novelization, 1994 Bantam Books, contains an afterward by O'Neil. On page 344 O'Neil writes: "I've long believed that Batman's Gotham City is Manhatten below Fourteenth Street at eleven minutes past midnight on the coldest night in November." He does not, however, discuss the dicotomy between Gotham and Metropolis, which is important to the passage in our article.

For the time being, I have also enclosed the lines in quotes. I know this is odd, because we're not sure about where these lines came from, however since editors keep changing the lines around, I thought this prudent to prevent mangling what was actually said by O'Neil. ~CS 18:23, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I almost removed this quote last night. It is constantly altered and never cited. I like it too, but it really needs a good source or it needs to go. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 18:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * If nothing is found soon, the lines can be rewritten around just the Knightfall quote, which is fully sourced. ~CS 23:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Na,h let's do it now. With a solid citation, we can proteect it from vandals while waiting to find the longer quote. ONeil probably said both, but one's a refinement of the other. let's take one rather than be left with none. ThuranX 23:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Introduction needs editing
The introductions seems kind of bland in explaining and summarizing what the article is going to be about. It just talks about where the literary origins of Gotham City originate. Someone care to add more to it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doughboysupreme (talk • contribs) 18:53, December 29, 2006


 * Firstly, sign your comments and add new sections to the bottom of the page. Second, thank you for the better intro image and the clarification on the Lex image. However, your addition of the Gordon image wasn't as helpful. This article is about the city first, if not only. Plus, he looked really...skeevy in it. Third, you removed content from the intro for no apparent reason other than that fact that you didn't like it. The intro could be better, but it's the bulk of the article that needs the help. In particular, we need to keep other media separate until the end. No more of this dual "in comics" and "other media" sectioning. That includes images. Comics based on other media are better, but overall, we shouldn't rely on live action movie versions of Gotham or animated versions of famous landmarks.


 * Thanks for the good intentions, but try making a comment before editting the article next time. Ace Class Shadow; My talk. 20:25, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

References?
How are the references edited? The Pure Imagination link is misdirected but I only find CSS where I would expect to find a list of footnotes. Trick 23:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Gotham and The Dark Knight (film)
I suggest that no information be added regarding the details of the production of TDK and locations for Gotham. Anything added at this point would be primarily speculative, and rumor based. It's better to either report only what's direct from the production and well sourced, or wimply wait till the press kits and movie are out. Guessing that the Gotham Bank MIGHT be a place for a possible joker scene isn't going to add to the article. ThuranX 02:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Martian Manhunter in Gotham?
OK. I'm not that familiar with DC as much as I used to be, but I do recall that a superhero team, the Justice Experience operated out of Gotham City, and one of its members was actually Martian Manhunter. Can anyone add any information regarding this? Orville Eastland 02:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Martian Manhunter was a member of that team, but I don't know much else about them. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 22:00, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Notable areas, landmarks, institutions and businesses
This section has been tagged as unreferenced since December 2006. That's six months. These unreferenced listings are either unreferencable (I made up the word), in error, or untrue. We should remove any of these that do not have references. --Chris Griswold (  ☎  ☓  ) 22:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Gotham for Fools.
In regard to the recently placed Fact tag, I offer the following webpages:
 * reprints a poem/essay from 1874 using the term "Gotham fools".
 * Refers to the history of the city, back to a 'Goat-ham' etymology.
 * Another report on the 'Wise Fools of Gotham'.

It sounds like a Chelm to me, actually. Hope this satisfies the need for facts. If someone can review and remove the tag, that'd be great. ThuranX 04:59, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Question
Does anyone else feel like perhaps Gotham should redirect here? This would be the most common thing people are searching for when they enter "Gotham" in the search bar. Anakinjmt 15:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


 * All things considered? No.
 * This is a general use encyclopedia, not a comics-centric one. Redirecting a common word, much less a proper names used for non-fictitious things, to a single use in fiction isn't the way to go. - J Greb 21:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I realize this is a general use encyclopedia. We should also consider the common usage of the word, and also what most people mean when they say a word. Surely the most meant reference when saying "Gotham" is Gotham City. Batman is a huge character that has been able to be recognized and known by millions around the world, even those that don't read comics, and it is highly well-known that he lives in Gotham City. Anakinjmt 22:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Erm, I see the page in spanish... is it just me ?
As above. The page (not this page, the encyclopedia page) on gotham city is showing for me in spanish (I think its spanish, anyway...). Revert to previous version, or is something going on... 82.10.108.49 23:01, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Please put new topics at the bottom of the page from now on. And, yes, the last person for whatever reason replaced the page with the Spanish version. I have reverted it and issued a Level 4 warning. Anakinjmt 23:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

New Maps from TDK Marketing
I just wanted to alert everyone to some new, and rather detailed, maps of Gotham that have been published as part of the ongoing TDK ARG/Marketing campaign.

A map of the Gotham rail system can be found at http://www.gothamcityrail.com/map.htm

Another detailed map of Gotham can be found at http://gothamnationalbank.com/locations.htm (on this map you need to click on a location name, then drag the map to explore the immediate area)

These maps name many neighborhoods in Gotham and even name streets and bridges. I havent had time to read both maps in depth, but I'm sure they could add to the article.

68.58.90.87 (talk) 06:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Not really, actually. One's too general, the other too small and specific to be exactly placed; but that would be WP:OR anyways, thus moot. It's the same basic map as the first film, and some vaguely implied details, just too loose to be tied down and hamper future writers... ThuranX (talk) 07:09, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Map from Gotham Cab: http://www.gothamcab.com/imgs/cab_3.jpg Wangry (talk) 17:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, http://www.gothamcab.com/imgs/cab_1.jpg and http://www.gothamcab.com/imgs/cab_2.jpg Wangry (talk) 18:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

"Gotham-y" Pic of NYC.
Per this edit's summary, an editor is using his personal feelings to determine that a picture of New York City matches how Gotham looks. Had the editor shown views of NYC specifically cited by the creative minds behind Gotham, it might be different, but using "a picture of New York which look remarkably Gotham-y" as a rationale for inclusion demonstrates it's a personal opinion being expressed, and as such, I have reverted it more than once, and today I do so again. I remind the editor that those seeking to make changes need to find consensus for those changes. ThuranX (talk) 12:08, 22 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, "an editor" also did not claim in the article or the picture's description that this picture resembled Gotham - she simply noted her reason for choosing that specific picture. Had I chosen another picture of New York, my edit summary would've read differently. The reason why I chose the picture is irrelevant - the only thing that matters is whether or not the picture is suitable for the section where I inserted it.


 * I really do not know if you are being deliberately obtuse or if you sincerely do not understand why a picture of New York would be suitable in a section discussing the architectural connection between New York and Gotham. If I had included an image of Chicago or London, then, sure, no one would challenge it's removal. Your over-eager rolling back of my edits makes me think that you feel you are the creative director of this page, or something. Please make sure you understand why I added this picture: read the surrounding text, and notice the absurdity behind removing a picture of New York from a section discussing New York. Anrie (talk) 07:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * To clarify further (in case you really don't get it): if someone inserted Image:Lasagna.jpg into Pasta (which they did), claiming "Hmm... my favourite dish" or "This a great picture - makes me hungry!" in the edit summary, that would "still constitutes an OR/personal opinion-based inclusion)". I do not understand your claim that it is "original research" - have you read the article (which you seem to think you own). I am going to add the picture again - not to be difficult, but because you haven't given me one valid reason why it shouldn't be there. Please address the issues I have mentioned here (in other words, actually read what I have written), before you remove it all willy-nilly again. Anrie (talk) 07:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I have given you a perfectly valid reason why. You used your personal judgment regarding a subjective matter. That's breach of OR. Lasanga's a poor example. If it's got the broad flat noodles layered with cheese and meat (or vegetables), and with sauce, then it's objectively an object which followed common recipes for Lasagna, and there's no OR, per WP's common sense policy. However, you selected th one picture of NYC out of hundreds which matches YOUR interpretation of Gotham, and posted it with that POV summary. It's your POV that that looks like Gotham, and by your logic, I could replace it with one of an alley in The Bowery, and claim that it's 'a NYC alley just like Gotham's Crime Alley', and that would be acceptable. It wouldn't. You've given no 'issues' to address, save that YOUR POV should be ok. YOu didn't select any NYC building or architectural style, some city planning map from the 1800's, or some public art movement which a writer had made a comparitive to Gotham with, but instead you grabbed a picture you like, and expect that to pass. It does not. ThuranX (talk) 12:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I give up. I sincerely do not care enough about this topic to continue wasting time trying to convince someone who clearly does not intend to consider that they might be wrong. Adios. Anrie (talk) 15:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Football
Weren't Gotham City's football team killed off in the pages of DEMON? Lots42 (talk) 07:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

C-Class rated for Comics Project
As this B-Class article has yet to receive a review, it has been rated as C-Class. If you disagree and would like to request an assesment, please visit WikiProject_Comics/Assessment and list the article. Hiding T 14:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In Case I Forget
A few-years-old Adam Strange limited series actually named one of the Gotham airports. This should be noted just for the naming, even if it is not accepted as canon. I'd put it in but I'm not sure where the Strange issue is at the moment. Lots42 (talk) 17:32, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Crime
My wife and I went to Gotham City several years ago for our honeymoon and didn't see any of this nonsense that this article speaks about. This article looks like original research and is very misleading to people seeking information about tourism in Gotham. The city council should be up in arms about this article making the city look like a haven for criminals and nutcases. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.15.63.4 (talk) 17:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Gotham City is a fictional city, unless you're talking about New York City, because New York City's nickname is Gotham. It is not Gotham City, just Gotham. Please give us some valid information. The Joker's Woman [BlackPearl14•contribs! ] 23:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe this is what we would call a joke.76.223.247.115 (talk) 18:32, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well, jokes aren't permitted so I'm treating it as I should be. The Joker's Woman [BlackPearl14•contribs! ] 04:01, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation
How is Gotham pronounced? Goth-am or Got-ham?--80.141.245.213 (talk) 13:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Gotham City is always pronounced "Gahth-um." The English town is pronounced "Goht-um" according to its entry in Wikipedia, although the present article seems to think it's like "Gaht-um". 173.16.252.154 (talk) 20:30, 13 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The real-life Gotham has a silent H, much like Chatham. The fictional Gotham in Batman is pronounced like GOTH-uhm, probably influenced by the word "Gothic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.45.196.227 (talk) 17:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Images
There are quite few non-free images which could be reduced to better reflect minimal use. I would suggest removing the Driver's Liscence, Batman Returns,the Long Halloween image. I've removed Arkham: The Animated Series, as the image was reduped on the Arkham page. -Sharp962 (talk) 02:35, 10 September 2009 (UTC).
 * I cut a few. Aside from the redundant city maps, the driver's license ID image was used to support original research, so it had another reason for removal. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:36, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

New Jersey?
I think the reference to the Palisades in The Dark Knight does NOT mean Gotham City is in New Jersey. For one, Bruce Wayne could simply be lying to protect his idenity. Secondly, the dialogue is roughly
 * Wayne: I grew up here
 * Dent: So Wayne Manor is in Gotham City
 * Wayne: The Palisades. I think you should learn where your jurisdiction ends.

My reading of this is that it would indicate just outside city limits, as the Palisades are just outside New York City. Saying I grew up HERE would be be colloquial. Especially if as a rich kid, he would have spent a lot of time in the City.
 * Thing is, that's from the movie. So while that might be true in the case of the movie, that doesn't mean that's true in the comics, in the first series of movies, or in any of the Batman cartoons. And with Gotham, I'm pretty sure writers avoid giving any clues where it might be in the "real world" (in fact, a lot of times you might see the license plate of a car in Gotham City as "Gotham state" or something like that). Anakinjmt (talk) 05:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this is why the reference to the Palisades, a real place, sticks out in the movie.67.243.180.190 (talk) 06:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Couldn't more then one geographic location be called the Palisades? Lots42 (talk) 10:21, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, on the East Coast of the US alone, there are three places called the Palisades: the Palisades in New York, Palisades Park, New Jersey, and the neighborhood called the Palisades in D.C. There very well could be a fictional Gotham Palisades. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.193.200.137 (talk) 18:44, 6 September 2011 (UTC)


 * There is a real "Gotham Parkway" located in Carlstadt (Bergen County), New Jersey, not too far from the Meadowlands Racetrack (horses) and the Metlife Stadium (where the NFL Giants play). You can find it on Google Maps. Gamweb (talk) 02:25, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Also correct pronounciation
It's pronounced GOTH-um.67.243.180.190 (talk) 00:08, 12 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Just like goddamn. Strange, eh? ;) 85.66.217.226 (talk) 10:37, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Return of Bruce Wayne
Why no mention of the events of the Return of Bruce Wayne in the history of Gotham section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.231.242.193 (talk) 21:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

Gotham City as Chicago
There's a good argument to be made that Gotham City is Chicago. The article already mentions that Chicago, like Gotham City, has a history of organised crime and corruption, and an abundance of back alleyways. There's also the fact that Chicago is known for its dramatic architecture, and the fact that New York is already represented in the DC universe by Metropolis. 96.45.196.227 (talk) 18:03, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, what? No facts exist for either assertation. Lots42 (talk) 04:01, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Gotham as New York (or Chicago) is pretty close to OR
The link to Gotham city as New York is pretty flaky and should either be fixed or entirely removed. The only actual statement that links the two is one writer's quote and the rest is just statements about New York being nicknamed Gotham. Although those statements are sourced the implied link is very OR. I don't think it should say Chicago either because there's nothing concrete backing that either but assuming that sourced statements can't be found the sentence in the first paragraph needs to be cut as well as most of the geography of Gotham section and a good many other statements. Cat-five - talk 01:06, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thread started at No_original_research/Noticeboard to try to get a more thorough discussion going. Cat-five - talk 01:12, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Withdrawing this, after re-reading it does seem to make sense although it could definitely use some trimming on the parts about Gotham being a nickname for New York historically (which is brought up at least 3 times in the article). Cat-five - talk 01:39, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Issue four of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Guardian says Gotham City is south of New York, with Slaughter Swamp in between. Lots42 (talk) 16:58, 11 October 2011 (UTC)