Talk:Gothic Lolita

Linkspamming by lolitafashion.org
Is it really necessary to have a link to lolitafashion.org in every single imaginable article surrounding Gothic Lolita? --84.169.125.144 (talk) 19:01, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Last Section
the last section of the article about elitism sounds very very colloquial. I don't know about it, so I can't fix it, but to an average reader it sounds like someone got on their high horse and edited the page in a very unacademic style.

Elegant Gothic Lolita page is mislabeled
At this point in time, I think the online GothLoli culture has been educated enough to handle clarifying the actual Elegant Gothic Lolita wiki page (not the Gothic Lolita page) as a term coined by Mana (musician) specifically for his Moi-même-Moitié brand. The Elegant Gothic Aristocrat page is mature enough to tell the difference and point people to the real fashion (Aristocrat (fashion)) while informing them of the common mistake, so why can we not do that for Elegant Gothic Lolita? Why are we allowing EGL to redirect to Gothic Lolita? We're only allowing the mislabeling to continue instead of trying to rectify it.

You all realize that if you were to say "I'm EGL" in Japan, they'd be a little confused.

I also understand it is shorter, but so is the word "iPod" in comparison to "MP3 Player" (or really, Digital Audio Player). However, you can't call every MP3 Player you see an iPod, because that would be misleading and well, confusing. iPod is a brand of MP3 Player/Digital Audio Player, just as EGL is a brand (really, a line in a brand) of Lolita fashion

It has been corrected and clarified! The Elegant Gothic Lolita page no longer redirects to Gothic Lolita. It now specifically describes the label, and points to Lolita fashion and Gothic Lolita in the description.

Disassociation and Clarification
Perhaps the best major revamp would be to clarify that "Gothic Lolita" isn't the umbrella style category, but Lolita fashion is.... and then focus the article more on the specific subgenre of gothic lolita than trying to explain all styles? This might be complicated since many confuse the term "gothic lolita" with "lolita fashion" in general. Loli fashion also has othercategories, not just gosu! I would suggest more info on otherstyles, like sweet lolita, white lolita, punk lolita. Maybe even male counterparts! it's so complex!

In some instances a more cumbersome Gothic/Lolita might also be slightly more accurate, to   represent the existence of Gothic Lolita within two poles of lolita fashion. Looking at the decor and "lifestyle goods" advertised to Gothic Lolitas, as opposed to say amaloli, it is  clear that there is a definite distinction in the consumption patterns (at least the apparent    patterns presented in magazines, websites etc.) of many who would call themselves Gothic Lolita, as they tend to have a strong overlap with "goths" as far as literature, movies, and art is concerned. At the same time, the two poles are never in balance, and there are many who seem to oscillate between them over their period of engagement with the fashion. I guess what I mean to say is, classifications of fashion (especially street fashion) are always temporally and spacially rooted, and thus change over time--often aided by marketing and other media in   attempts to "codify" and "reify" sub-fashions, which is then actualized by the participants/consumers and generates increased diversity of products (and presumably sales).Kaelus Primus


 * Someone editing this article is really trying to make gothloli sound like some kind of underground cult-like movement!! I grew up in Tokyo from when I was 12 until now, and was dressing Gothloli and going to gothloli-related events from about age 15.. there is no "social hardship", nobody thinks you are "crazy" (sometimes "kogyaru" looks at you funny, but there are recently also some "kogyaru-gosurori" girls in Shibuya), most older ladies think you are very cute!! Yes, most gothloli (nowadays) are "bangyaru" and "otaku" but so are many young Japanese girls. That's not so strange. It's just a fashion with some lifestyle elements. Just like being a "b-girl" or skater punk or whatever. It's a nice culture, but not weird or unusual. Many girls at my school were into Loli/Gothloli in some way.


 * "social hardship" of being Loli seems to be mainly in other countries, or places. Where I live, ["The OC", Southern California, America] there is a lot of hardship not being like the stereotypical teen girl who has fake tans and a RAZR phone with fake gems on it.  But in Tokyo it doesn't seem that way.

Photo of this fashion?
Would be possible to include a photo of a typical Gotic Lolita woman? Thanks.

There really isn't a "typical" as the fashion of GL/EGL/EGA/CL etc is vast and and also has many branches from neo-gothic to punk, even going as far as looking like the victim of a horror film. ^_^

There are links at the bottom of the article page, Blue Period being a good source for photos considering she has MANY scans from the Gothic and Lolita Bibles.

....Hi, I think one of the posters here has misunderstood "gothloli" style, it's not such a wide genre and the picture of the girls in white and black on the page now is a fairly good representation of the typical style of about 2 years ago (recently it's become a little more toned-down and perhaps more adult looking). Punk-looking girls are, er, punk, not gothloli. Likewise pink sweaters and vivienne westwood cardigans is "lolita fashion" in japan, but not GOTHloli. Lace petticoats, black frilly dresses, teddybears made of black leather, stockings with ribbons etc, that's gothloli.

I have to say the current picture of Mana is a bad way to represent Gothic Lolita, as he's dressed more like regular western goth than Gosuloli.

Things to be done
Note that Japanese version of article refers to phenom as "Gothic & Lolita," and that typical Japanese usage is just plain "Lolita." More explication of Harajuku street scene (perhaps whole separate article?) including older male Japanese photographers, foreign and domestic tourists, relationship between old and new members of street scene, and commentary on age/background of participants. Perhaps a more sophisticated presentation of Goth/Gothloli relationship, since these two phenom have at least some common causes, they are more part of the same phenom rather than two disparate phenom affecting each other. More pics would be nice! - Naif

...I agree more (up-to-date) pictures would be nice. The Japanese article is not written by someone who knows anything about "gothic", as far as I could see, although I only glanced at it. For the article about Japanese lolita fashion, it would be worth noting that "Lolita" fashion is the main genre and "Gothloli" is a subset, the same as "classic lolita" etc. It seems like the current article (and many comments from people) have this exactly the opposite way round). There are many "lolita" brands which are more similar to regular street clothing than gothloli and many gothloli girls wear these styles when they are not dressing up as gothloli. Some of those brands are quite high-quality designers using good materials, they are popular not just with "kids", and are expensive. Vivienne Westwood is sometimes considered a brand like that. The terms "EGL" and "EGA" are usually only known by fans of Mana and his fashion brand, it is not the usual term for gothloli's, likewise most "real" Japanese goths don't even know what it means. Most people might know about "lolita fashion", the Japanese goths call gothloli's "gothloli" and young girls into gothloli or other lolita fashions sometimes call each other "lolita-chan"s. *Some* gothloli's, interestingly, call themselves "goshikku" because they have no background about the original style of "gothic" music and fashion and don't see the difference. The goths don't like that! ;) There is no "harajuku scene" specifically related to Gothloli- are you thinking of the (ever decreasing) cosplayers and visual kei fans on the bridge there? Probably there are less than 50 girls in total and less than 5 or 10 gothloli's amongst them on a weekend. You can see more than that just walking around akihabara (lots of gothloli's are otaku kind of people). If you go to marui in shinjuku you can see about 100 gothloli's in 10 minutes. Maybe the article should include information about "lolita fashion" being the bigger picture, and gothloli attracting more attention in the west??


 * i have heard sweet lolita refer to themselves as gosrori though; would this be because the term originated as gothic&lolita and got shortened to gothloli/gosrori, or would this be some sort of reference to their tendency towards gothic clothing on the days that they are not dressed sweet lolita?

Fringe Culture, Even in Japan
Similar comments with the above: goth loli is definitely NOT mass marketed in Japan. If anything it is considered very, very fringe culture that the average Japanese citizen has nothing to do with.


 * Well, there's a large department store right in the middle of extremely busy and expensive Shinjuku, almost entirely devoted to Gothloli. Also there is a monthly glossy magazine you can buy in any convenience store which heavily features the fashion. Every single HMV or Tower records has a large section of Gothloli related records, magazines and posters. If you mean the average 40 year old salaryman has nothing to do with it, then you're right I suppose. But for teenagers it's a major "youth fashion" (hate that word), along with "Punk", "Gyaru" etc. Way back in 1999 Shiina Ringo dressed in gothloli style for her album and some videos, and got to number 1 in the album and singles charts. More recently even Ayumi Hamasaki did a couple of gothloli-style pop videos, and she's the biggest pop artist in all of Japan, selling millions of records. Can't get much more major than that.


 * Multiple female women with mainstream jobs have responded to a question "if you had to do cosplay, which cosplay would you do?" with "GothLoli." I saw a group of girls at one senior high school culture festival in the countryside dress up in Gothloli without attracting special attention.  I agree it's not far, far fringe.  Just "fringe." -Naif


 * I think the japanese fashion articles on wikipedia are very biased towards this kind of visual-kei culture. Not that there's anything wrong but I think it'S not an accurate representation of how Japanese teens really dress. Lolitas are usually considered very strange by Japanese pple, and yes, Hamasaki did dress like that for a music vid but I think that's more because it's a music video. Britney Spears dressed as an Air Stewardess and a nurse in her toxic video i believe, but that doesnt indicate any kind of fashion movement.


 * Britney Spears dressed up for her videos and that didn't cause a fashion movement in the U.S. That's very true.  But you underestimate the amount of influence the idols and pop stars have in Japan. All cultures are influenced by celebrities to a degree, but Japanese people tend to be among the most impressionable.


 * Britney Spears shaves her head, parties until she's drunk, and then calls herself the "Antichrist" and puts 666 on her forehead, and you expect people to imitate her? LOL! 204.52.215.107 15:45, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I would say that rather than a fashion movement, it's more of a movement similar to the goth movement in America or Europe, and teenagers dressed in these fashions are more likely to be outcasts or otaku. I think that references to Lolita by mainstream artists is more about the artist looking for inspiration for new material. Compare Hamasaki's music video to Madonna's similar goth-inspired style in one of her videos.


 * I'd like to see an article focusing on all Japanese fashions with this in it too. Lolitas, Aristocrats, Kogals, Ganguro/Gonguro, Yamanba, & whatever the people in those "Frits" street fashion books are called. & yeah, adding more pictures would help differentiate between lolita styles.

What are 'Mary Janes' in the context of shoes? Is it a brand name? -CamTarn
 * I wish there was an article on it. They're shoes with a strap. Cool Hand Luke (Communicate!)  04:16, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * There is, it is Mary Jane (Shoe).

i'd just like to point out that, when i was in Japan, there were whole blocks of stores dedicated to gothic & lolita/aristocrat/punks/VK fashion in malls. i saw this not just in Tokyo, but in Osaka and Hiroshima as well, and i didn't even go looking for the ones that weren't in Tokyo - i just ran into them. i also saw a store or two in Kobe, Kyoto and a number of other places. Given, the popularity has fallen off since then, but for a subcultural fashion it's really quite common. It's an event when i see even one deathrocker or even an obvious goth on the streets around here, and i live in San Francisco, one of the centers of goth culture. i do wish we had a Harajuku/Yoyogi type place around here... There's the Haight, but no one really hangs out there except the homeless street punks. Ah well, no use whining, i suppose.  M ira F irefly  04:09, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

"goths"
The label is in frequent misuse, and really applies only to followers of the gothic rock/deathrock subculture, which is almost completely underground. Everything else that has come to be associated with the term is really from widespread media misusage of it.

A lot disturbances and so called mis-esteem over what is gothic cause of irrational but I'll pretend to be psychic one time and say a "punk/goth" or "Goth/Rock" is going to explain their frustrations with creativity. Right I don't acknowledge disbelief with the goth section being overruled (though bias) but how old is goth term or gothic? Surely I can believe a religion or a Bram Stoker Novel so heres a PROPER REFERENCE: goth·ic     /ˈgɒθɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[goth-ik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –adjective 1.	(usually initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of architecture, originating in France in the middle of the 12th century and existing in the western half of Europe through the middle of the 16th century, characterized by the use of the pointed arch and the ribbed vault, by the use of fine woodwork and stonework, by a progressive lightening of structure, and by the use of such features as flying buttresses, ornamental gables, crockets, and foils. 2.	(usually initial capital letter) pertaining to or designating the style of painting, sculpture, etc., produced between the 13th and 15th centuries, esp. in northern Europe, characterized by a tendency toward realism and interest in detail. 3.	(initial capital letter) of or pertaining to Goths or their language. 4.	(usually initial capital letter) of or pertaining to the music, esp. of northern Europe, of the period roughly from 1200 to 1450, including that of the Ars Antiqua, Ars Nova, and the Burgundian school. 5.	(usually initial capital letter) pertaining to the Middle Ages; medieval. 6.	(sometimes initial capital letter) barbarous or crude. 7.	(often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a style of literature characterized by a gloomy setting, grotesque, mysterious, or violent events, and an atmosphere of degeneration and decay: 19th-century gothic novels. 8.	(initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to the alphabetical script introduced for the writing of Gothic by Ulfilas and derived by him from Greek uncials with the addition of some Latin and some invented letters. 9.	(often initial capital letter) being of a genre of contemporary fiction typically relating the experiences of an often ingenuous heroine imperiled, as at an old mansion, where she typically becomes involved with a stern or mysterious but attractive man. –noun 10.	(usually initial capital letter) the arts and crafts of the Gothic period. 11.	(initial capital letter) the extinct Germanic language of the Goths, preserved esp. in the 4th-century translation by Ulfilas of the Bible. Abbreviation: Goth, Goth., goth. 12.	(often initial capital letter) a story, play, film, or other work in the gothic style. 13.	(usually initial capital letter) British. black letter. 14.	(often initial capital letter) a square-cut printing type without serifs or hairlines.

NOW DO I SEE A SINGLE PUNK or ROCK WORD IN HERE TO PROVE YOU GOTH/ROCK or GOTH/PUNKs (consider by faculty other goths not punk or rock inferior) THE CREATORS OF THE TERM GOTHIC or let alone the DICTIONARY? Normal punks or punk/goths or goth/rockers hate fascism but uniquely you like degrading and lowering the standards for others in term of the total classification as goth. So is it a crime for anyone to want to be called Emoth (Emo+Goth), Lolita Goth ect. Reference note for goth definition is found at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/gothic. LAST NOTE: Do all punks have to be sXe to be punk? Does sXe be better than Goth Punk or maybe normal Punk? There really isn't a category for a compulsory punk so could I have an punk's/rocker intelligent rebate to answer my query why punk/rocker gets more royal variety treatment over other types or "want to claim" types (like goth) to the extent not being called authoritarian? Not any backlashing just a human view from a intelligent kind punk or goth/rocker (there must be one). --ForsakenPoppet (talk) 12:00, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Kudos on site. --ForsakenPoppet (talk) 12:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Sources of references
Here some online text tha can be used for inline citations -> http://www.lerman.biz/asagao/gothic_lolita/research1.html. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.50.154.66 (talk) 03:07, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

I added another one.. look at the reference I put in its #1 right now. fairly extensive.TheDarknessVisible 06:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Mainichi Shimbun
This article is inaccurate. I've stated it in the Lolita_Fashion and deleted it from there as well. Sweet Lolita and the Sweet Lolita brands were already out about a decade before Gyaru fashion even came up in the 90's, so I have no clue what the author was talking about. It is really misleading.

If anyone have any questions or concerns, get back at me.
 * Sorry, didn't notice your note here. I think the operating principle here is Verifiability, which says, "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." Especially in an article which is tagged for being unsourced, removal of an article on the subject from a large newspaper like Mainichi Shimbun would not be appropriate. Articles which are tagged as unsourced and OR are often nominated for deletion for those reasons. So, even if totally inaccurate, the article at least shows evidence of coverage in the media. I don't edit at this article, but if I did, I would use the news article to cite facts that it does get right. For the facts it gets wrong, don't use this article as a source-- hopefully a better one can be found. But as evidence of "Notability" and coverage, I think the article is still valuable. Dekkappai 19:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I've made a mistake. Gyaru fashion started coming in as a fashion in the 70s as well, but it didn't get insanely popular until the 90s. But Gyaru and Lolita fashion has always been conflicting, they're polar opposites, they will never mix together right. This page shows a translation of the "Rococo Vol. 1" magazine about the 'timeline of gosuloli', which shows the timelines and influences and connections of the fashion, which includes the birth of the major sweet lolita brands. BTW, I still fail to see what can be cited from that article, because there are a lot of errors or untrue information about the styles in there. Especially parts like calling the Gothic Lolitas "Goths", and whatnot. Sorry to seem like I'm being a major bitch, I'm just trying to keep the fashion from being misinterpreted anymore than it is. Ahmanni 01:40, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Ethimology
Is posible to add some ethimology of the history of the word, the use of "gothic" and "lolita" to describe the style? --66.50.154.66 14:03, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Gothic Lolita is what happens to Goth when it has to satisfy the Japanese Minimun Cuteness Laws... T ConX 22:03, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

List of GothLoli in manga misleading?
It says in the list that there is a GothLoli character in Fruits Basket. Who? If whoever posted it was referring to Hanajima Saki, then they are mistaken--  Hana-chan is just gothic, she's not a lolita. Dark Chi (AKA Freya) in Chobits is also not really GothLoli, she shows too much skin. Were they talking about someone else and I missed it?

I won't argue Hana-Chan but as a fashion enthusiast I greatly denote your view on Dark Chi with the Teenie (10-11) age look and Victorian dress (victorian attire is considered gothic) so Lolita (age) + Victorian fashion (gothic) = Gothic Lolita in unless blurred vision. How could a Victorian dress with a girl (or mistaken a robot girl aka chobit) looking in 10-11 (sincerely) be not Lolita/Gothic? --ForsakenPoppet (talk) 12:24, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Freya would really be classified as ero lolita, gothic lolita is modest. 65.92.68.100 (talk) 00:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Sarah

Explanation
Harajuku, Visual kei, and Gothic and Lolita are all very important articles that need to be properly sourced, and these three articles are key in working together. Gothic and Lolita is used to describe the whole subculture of "girls on the bridge" in Harajuku - including the "punk" and "visual kei cosplayers" - for a quick confirmation check the Japanese version of this article. We want to make a Gothic and Lolita section of the Visual Kei article, to talk about the culture, and link here. "Lolita fashion" should be the main fashion article (it seems pretty well written, and just needs to be sourced). This article currently duplicates a lot of the Lolita Fashion article. Just some thoughts on how to organize the pages - and I'm perfectly willing to accept suggestions/comments about the idea. There is a good study done by a sociology student (English) about the "subculture" as well as a report by NHK (Japanese TV station) that follows students from the bridge, to other activies, as well as interviewing thier parents (In Japanese). There are some other articles I have access that discuss it as well. Denaar 22:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Manga Section
I am a little puzzled about a few of the lolita style in mangas. Vampire Knight is not a good example of the loli style. They wear tipical uniforms and Yuki's dresses aren't loli either. xxxHolic does feature two girls in maid outfits, but they aren't really lolitas. They are just Yuko-San's helpers. A better example is Godchild. Also, Nana Kitade is the punk lolita princess. TokyoPop has published the Gothic and Lolita Bible, which is available in the US. The manga Doll is also a very good example of loli dress. Risdpanda (talk) 22:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Unless someone can find me an image of Yuki or whoever in lolita, I will remove it from the article. 65.92.68.100 (talk) 00:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)Sarah

I'm trying to understand why Death Note isn't listed among them. Misa Amane is described by both the writer and artist as being Gothic Lolita, yet it isn't included here...Durmgrid (talk) 16:52, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Costume
I've removed the part that says "gothic lolita costume" and left it as "gothic lolita". Lolita =/= cosplay. Also, removed Death Note and Vampire Knight. Misa isn't a lolita and there are none in VK, if so, I want proof. 65.92.65.27 (talk) 12:06, 28 June 2008 (UTC)Sarah

depends, if there is a lolita dress exactly to a certain manga or anime, than its cosplay, therefore it is a costume. Death Berry  talk  19:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Haseo445 (talk • contribs)

Normal loli is better, no?
And don't even get me started on cp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.173.198 (talk) 04:01, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ive always wondered...is Gothic Lolita loli? *laughs* 58.170.133.245 (talk) 12:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

"Statement"
From the article (currently the last section of the article): "The 'emo' and 'scene' fashion is commonly mistaken with lolita fashion because of its similarities yet if anything, that has sprouted out of the lolita fashion and gone into America and Europe especially." I can't even tell decipher what this sentence is trying to say. Also, shouldn't the terms emo and scene be internal links, just like every second word in every wikipedia article ever? I'd try fixing it but I don't see much point in trying to fix such trivial errors until the statement itself is made comprehensible. Could also do with a [citation needed]; it sounds an awful lot like opinions and speculation, but then again, that's just, like, my opinion, man. Lootsorrow (talk) 06:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Pandora Hearts
DOES HAVE LOLITA! its just heavily influenced by the males, not females. just because females wear it the most doesnt mean males dont! Death Berry  talk  16:45, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Could just be me but...
The last time I checked, Gothic Lolita is just a subset of Lolita Fashion, right? So why exactly does it merit it's own article? I'm redirecting this to the section on gothloli in the main lolita article.~Sana (talk) 16:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I see that it was reverted. Perhaps suggest a merge with a merge tag? I'll support it.--Knulclunk (talk) 03:17, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lolita_fashion#Gothic_Lolita_merge_proposal~Sana (talk) 18:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)