Talk:Gothic fashion

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Goth Lolita
Seems to me there ought to at least be some reference to Japanese Goth Lolita fashion here as a subset of general Goth fashion, so I'm adding a link to the "See Also" section. --BrentonRyan (talk) 04:27, 30 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Feu Follet seems to think this link has no business being here, stating in her edit summary that "Japanese Lolita Fashion has nothing to do with the western Gothic subculture". Feu, I understand that the Japanese Lolita scene and the western Gothic subculture are two separate entities that have developed apart from each other, but this article is not about the Gothic subculture, and my edit was not to connect the Lolita subculture to the western Gothic subculture. This article is simply about Gothic fashion - an aesthetic, basically. It stands to reason, in my mind, that readers interested in learning about the western Gothic fashion aesthetic may also be interested in Japanese gothic lolita fashion, because separate development or not, they often overlap in aesthetics, hence adding it to the "See Also" section; if I was trying to assert that it branched off of or is a part of western Gothic subculture, I would have found a way to work it into the main body of the article, but that's not what I'm trying to do here. If you still disagree with the edit, please respond here with your reasoning. BrentonRyan (talk) 04:44, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * but this article is not about the Gothic subculture
 * Nonsense. This is an article about the fashion of the Goth subculture. --Feu Follet (talk) 21:17, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "Nonsense", huh? I think somebody missed one of Breathtaker's sockpuppets.↑ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.248.250 (talk) 19:52, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You didn't really address any of my finer points there, you just restated your initial protest. Would you care to elaborate? --BrentonRyan (talk) 05:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Icons
I'm sorry, does anyone associated with the Goth scene really consider Alice Cooper to be an "icon"? Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)


 * As noted and sourced in the article, Christoph Grunenberg published an article in which Alice Cooper's style was noted as a forerunner and inspiration for subsequent goth style. Wikipedia depends on sources. WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 23:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Skepticism
this page is a fucking mess I have to say, but it's lacking quality aside, where is the point of having a page on fashion? shouldn't this be merged either with the fashion page or the page for gothic subculture? Grateful for answers but too gay to sign posts

Theda Bara
Would somebody please quote any real source about this Theda Bara? Betty Page is way more influential to the look of some goths and she is not even mentioned... Trencacloscas (talk) 07:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Hell, I don't see a single source here, just two links... JackorKnave (talk) 23:38, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, about the corpse paint thing... mostly that is a goth fashion thing. I've known black metallers, and they just dress like other metallers. In regards to black metal, I think that the bands only wear it, and I only ever see it onstage or in videos anyway. Again, no source for thisJackorKnave (talk) 23:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
 * No Goth wears corpse paint. Silly metal bands might but real Goths aren't that sloppy or goofy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.101.135 (talk) 07:33, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

No, this page doesn't need to be removed. It needs to be expanded. Elements of gothic dress, crossover styles with other looks (rivet, cyber, steampunk, etc), and even influences of goth fashion on the mainstream normie culture should all be written about/.

Unfortunately, I'm at work, or I'd start.209.131.62.113 (talk) 23:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I've added a source for Theda Bara, and a number of other Goth icons. Aryder779 (talk) 16:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Picture of 'Gothic Woman'
I'm sorry, but...uh...what does...

"Gothic woman, traditional style, with spikes and piercings."

Have to do with anything. Gothic traditional style is spikes and piercings? You mean Punk right? Oh, yeah, thats a vague problem we have there. ;) I suggest we either properly source it before placing such views there or change it to "actual" traditional Gothic style if we can source that properly to. 58.170.133.245 (talk) 12:07, 30 September 2008 (UTC) Harlequin

Alright, since no-one disagrees, im changing it. 124.182.52.116 (talk) 12:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC) Guy

"Basic Goth outfit and makeup, though drawing on various aspects of the subculture; spikes and white makeup are commonly attributed to the style." Sorry, mate. But, Very Old School Goth (talk) 00:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * spikes are common in the Punk and fetish crowds. Not in the Goth scene.
 * there is no such thing as a "basic Goth outfit".
 * "Though drawing on various aspects of the subculture", does that make sense to anyone? Because it sounds like gibberish to me.
 * So does "spikes and white makeup are commonly attributed to the style".

POV?
The "Role models" section that describes Theda Bara as being "known for her dark eyeshadow, curves and smoldering on-screen presence". How is that relevant to the article? Who cares that she had "curves" and a "smoldering on-screen presence"? I really don't see how these factors contributed to her becoming a role model for Goths, nor do I think that was it. It's simply an unnecessary praise. Otherwise we can count other curvy actresses known for their "on-screen smoldering presence" as Goth icons, such as Lana Turner and Mae West. --Crackthewhip775 (talk) 05:52, 17 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right. I trimmed it down, but I left the part about dark eyeshadow because that anticipates later Goth fashion. Aryder779 (talk) 02:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Characteristics?
"Many goths are drawn to the fashion due to a sense of alienation, which may explain the style's fascination with morbidity or vampire style". Wouldn't this be POV? This implies that Goth is a fallback plan for people who were alienated by mainstream society. This seems almost like weasel wording and appears to have been written by someone who knows nothing of the scene, has at least a mild disdain for Goth and is making wild speculations. Very Old School Goth (talk) 12:38, 12 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure when that sentence was added. I agree that it should be removed. It's speculation. Aryder779 (talk) 02:50, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Haute Goth
I've restored an earlier version of this page. The "Haute Goth" section, which treats Gothic elements in high fashion, was deleted at some point. It is the best-referenced section in the article. Please discuss any major alterations to this version on this talk page. Aryder779 (talk) 16:01, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Really?
"Gothic fashion is a clothing style worn by members of the Goth subculture; a dark, sometimes morbid, eroticized fashion and style of dress.[1] Typical Gothic fashion includes black dyed and crimped hair, bright lips and black clothes.[1] Both male and female goths sometimes wear dark eyeliner and dark fingernails. Styles are often borrowed from the Punks, Victorians and Elizabethans. BDSM imagery and paraphernalia are also common.[1] Some haute couture designers, particularly Alexander McQueen and John Galliano, have been associated with the goth aesthetic."


 * Crimped? Honestly, what Goth crimps their hair? Backcombing, sure. But crimping? Seriously?
 * Bright lips? BRIGHT lips? Really? Reeaally? I've never seen "bright black" lipstick before. Can you describe it?
 * "Both male and female goths sometimes wear dark eyeliner and dark fingernails" If by sometimes you mean all the time... yes.
 * I have been a part of the Goth scene for well over 20 years and I have no idea who in the fuck Alexander McQueen or John Galliano are. So how are they assocoated with "the goth aesthetic"? I don't throw on my pointy toed boots, my Corpus Delicti shirt and my black frock coat and say "wow, I look so Alexander McQueen". Does anyone else? Why are designers even on a page dedicated to an anti-fashion scene?
 * With regard to Alexander McQueen, please see WP:NOR and WP:RELIABLE. Many books and articles have been written on the relationship between the fashion of the gothic subculture and high fashion. 98.242.73.82 (talk) 02:00, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Crimped - maybe they meant the way Robert Smith used to have his hair back in the day, and used the wrong word. Considering Vivienne Westwood and Malcolm McLarren invented the highly popular bondage style pants and tops worn by many goths (the ones who don't wear lace and velvet), I'd say it is fair to mention top designers on this page. McQueen and Galliano might not have invented anything new in the world of goth, but they sure did understand the aesthetics. --178.254.124.220 (talk) 20:30, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Alice Cooper
Some debate regarding Alice Cooper's early influence on goth fashion. Note that Grunenberg's article, p. 172, notes Cooper; according to [{WP:RELIABLE]], this should be included unless it is contravened or if it can be agreed that the source is incorrect. I strongly suspect that other substantiation could be easily located. I understand that Cooper's association with heavy metal in the '80s makes him unappetizing to many gothic rock fans, but I think the theatricality of his '70s work is clearly an influence on goth. 98.242.73.82 (talk) 13:55, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Cooper is metal. Period. He has no influence whatsoever over Gothic anything. The fact that he wears face paint does not make him Goth any more than it makes The Road Warriors or Bozo the Clown Goth. Apart from the makeup name one thing that Cooper has ever done that makes him even loosely associated with Goth. Just one. And being "sourced" doesn't count. You can make a source say anything you want if you look hard enough. Draw a line in the sand somewhere or you may as well let wikipedia call evanescence "Goth".71.79.103.108 (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Siouxise Sioux says that "School's Out" is one of her favorite songs of all time . 98.242.73.82 (talk) 23:18, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Alien Sex Fiend are also widely understood to strongly influenced by Cooper. (one source among many:) 98.242.73.82 (talk) 23:19, 2 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah? And Rozz Williams liked Black Sabbath. So what? That doesn't make Ozzy Goth, does it? If William Faith liked Snoop Dogg would that make it Goth? No. So what's the point? "School's Out" is metal. Metal isn't Goth. Metal is about as far from Goth as you can get. So why bother arguing about Cooper's inclusion? Run-DMC wore black. Are they an influence on Goth too? Weird Al Yankovic likes to wear shoes. And I've noticed that Eyajo Joseph and Daniel Ian also like to wear shoes. Maybe Weird Al is a strong influence on Goth as well. /eye roll 75.180.54.196 (talk) 03:47, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Feedback on New photos
We have received many new photos on Commons since this article was created, and it's about time we replace the current lead image with a higher quality photo. Does anybody have any feedback? Personally I like 1, 4, 8, but I think 5, 7 could be good examples of more dramatic makeup/piercing/hairstyles for somewhere else.AerobicFox (talk) 22:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

@AerobicFox I know that I'm late to the discussion, but I strongly agree with your opinions on the photos 1 - 9. My preferences are (in order) #1, #8, and #3. Yes, our opinions differ on photo #4 (which I definitely dislike for this article), but adding #1 and #8 would be excellent additions.SeaBeeDee 08:12, 20 July 2016 (UTC) SeaBeeDee 08:12, 20 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SeaBeeDee (talk • contribs)

Fashion site link - quality issue
Is this really the best link directory for gothic fashion sites? I just browsed it for a few minutes, and there are tons of broken links in there, or websites completely unrelated to goth. Sun tanning studios, seriously? That's got to be the most un-goth site ever, and it's on the list. Surely there must be a better alternative to this site, no? 2001:7E8:C67F:BF01:4450:2E51:C63:3F58 (talk) 14:17, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

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gothic (medieval) fashion
Is there aby article about gothic mean medieval fashion? Fashion of that gothic medieval style. Lots od people at "renaisance" festivals wears in fact gothic medieval fashion, not renaisance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.135.161.1 (talk) 05:48, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

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