Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 1

Evanescence - Gothic or not?
Evanescence would have to be included as a modern goth metal band. The operatic singing/piano of Amy Lee combined with the metal sound and themes warrant their inclusion. This is perhaps a sign that the goth genre may be due for a revival, as they won a Grammy for best new artist.

Why you ask? Because obviously they are not gothic. Amy Lees singing is not operatic, and the piano playing makes her sound more like Tori Amos then Theatre of Tragedy. And a Grammy doesnt mean anything. Like every other fad, they will be very popular but after they release another album, their popularity will quickly wane and fade out of existence.

Just because Amy Lee dresses in clothes that are a little dark, sings and tries to sound depressed and sings all angst makes her far from gothic. Actually thats the mainstream stereotype of gothic and quite different. Maybe you should read the gothic article and listen to some gothic bands to see how different the 2 sound. --Arm


 * '''~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~

No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life. Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies.'''


 * A more proper question is rather Evanscene are Gothic metal or not. Goth music is has a much wider scope of styles than goth metal. Lee singing is not operatic and the style is somewhat similiar to Lacuna Coil - a band which is widely considered "goth metal" band. Band like Evanscene is what I call "Soft Gothic Metal" which far less agressive and classical than Scandinavian or doom gothic metal. MathKnight 08:16, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


 * If Evanescence aren't in the cat, Lacuna Coil wouldn't be. I defy you to tell them apart in A-B testing without knowing the songs. "goth metal" contains a lot of things purist goths wouldn't let you call "goth" - David Gerard 17:14, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Evanescense is Nu-Metal. I've removed the band from the list.


 * I returned Evanescense to the list, as many regard it as Goth metal band. However, I added dispute notice as following: "Evanescence (label as Gotg metal is disputed)". MathKnight 16:48, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * How can you see Evanescense as Goth Metal? First of all, Evanescense is not Metal in any way. Evanescense is closer to Nu-Metal than anything else. The main reason for this, is that Goth is not supposed to be infected with Teen-Angst lyrics. Please read once more, the definitions of Nu-Metal and Goth Metal, then listen to the music. This discussion gives me the creeps. How can one even slightly doubt?


 * I reverted it because 1. you don't refer to stuff in the Wikipedia article space in an article. 2. 'disputed' means 'verifiably disputed in the wider world'. That is, do you have references? - David Gerard 16:55, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * 1. Please clarify. 2. Read the above discussion, there are some who regard it as a Goth metal band. It is indeed very different than early Paradise Lost or Tristania, but are very semiliar to Lacona Coil (which is regarded Goth metal by nearly everyone). What is the difference between the two? MathKnight 17:23, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * '' ~ Evanescence are Gothic!! ~

No, your wrong Arm! Evanescence are gothic. Amy Lee does sing operatic and because she has another talent, playing the piano (for 9yrs) doesnt mean it makes her sound like Tori Amos, one of her infulences. And yes a Grammy does mean something, it means shes Best New Artist! Better than Queensrÿche which I might add have never heard of before in my life. Amy Lee does dress in clothes that are dark which is her style obviously, it's not like shes trying to be someone shes not. And if you had a life like Amy's with her close sister dying at a young age wouldn't you think that she might be depressed a little bit maybe? Plus as well as having a abusive realationship for about 2yrs which includes physical abusement like hitting, slapping, punching and rape. Sure Evanescence might sound different to other gothic artists but hey sure every band has a different sound and Evanescence arent just Gothic theyre also Hard Rock and Industrial Tendencies. ''

Thanks for the reply, Mr. X. I always enjoy to have these little debates.

If you want to hear a female goth metal singer sing operatic then go listen to some Nightwish songs. They can be downloaded off peer-to-peer programs or you can get samples from www.nightwish.com. Amy Lees vocals are far from operatic. Closer then Britney Spears but shes no Tarja Turunen.

And I dont care if they won Grammys or not. I see the Grammy awards as a big farce anyway. But Queensryche did have mainstream success too. They arent some obsecure indie band.

Being abused doesnt give you any artistic ability that you wouldnt already have. That just puts you in the same category of poetic quality as the frontman of KoЯn. Oh and about her being in an abusive relationship, Get out of an abusive relationship, stupid!

But I just dont find Evanescence to be gothic. Amy Lees singing is not mysterious or alluring, the musics not dark and the lyrics dont take on the typical goth metal subjects. At least not the way a goth metal songwriter would. Thats all.

And I am not some big goth metal purist.--Arm


 * Nightwish are actually a Power metal band, not Gothic. A good example for Gothic operaic singer is Vibeke Stene from Tristania or Floor Jensen from After Forever. MathKnight 10:20, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Nightwish is a combination of power metal and gothic metal. --Arm
 * ""We're definitely a rock band," says the 20-year-old Lee. "But the twist is that the band's music is epic, dramatic, dark rock."" - Quote from http://www.evanescencewebsite.com, an Evanescence fanpage. Also, if you read the Evanescence page on Wikipedia, it says "Evanescence is a rock band from Little Rock, Arkansas". I most kindly disagree with any point of view that says "evanescence is *metal", because Evanescence does not contain any metal influences, IMHO. Only the listeners like to think that they are "hardcore". --\alive


 * Interesting that that website has been used as evidence that they aren't Gothic - the meta tags use 'goth' and 'gothic'. This is something I found from the (official) Placebo website a few years ago, when I viewed the source to see how something was down (forget what the effect was now, but I remember some of the meta information they were using for the search engines). Shall have to look at the official Evanescence website and see what search terms they're trying to elicit (when I have less windows open - you never know how much flash, bells and whistles a band site is going to have) sheridan


 * Evanscence is more sort of a goth rock band to my opinion. However, I suggest to keep them in the list and add a dispute label and redirection to this talk page. MathKnight 13:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Except that articles should not link outside article space. Also, asking the band is irrelevant - if you believe that, The Sisters of Mercy aren't goth either - David Gerard 15:33, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Evanescence isn't gothic metal because they're just not metal. Modern goth rock, maybe. I'd just put them as a gloomy alternative rock band. But not gothic metal. That doesn't mean that they aren't any good- on the contrary, I enjoy them quite a bit. But they're not metal. Is it really that big of a deal?

---

Evanescence isnt Gothic Rock or Gothic Metal. Amy Lee first off pirated every song she did from other bands. Second she rewrite a lot of the music to be in the Nu Metal form. In case you missed it, dressing in Black and having a female vocalist does not make you a Gothic Metal band, as can be seen in bands, Nightwish, Fairyland, Synergy, Therion, and Lullacry. Second, learn how to write and compose music, the compusure of Evanescence is nothing alike Gothic Metal or Gothic Rock. Lastly, youve got most of your history wrong in that Evanescence created the Nu-Goth scense with Nightwish, Lacuna Coil, Within Temptation and Tristania. I will keep editing this until its amended - Ley Shade Leyasu

-

Evanescence is just a mainstream band although not a bad band i wouldnt put them in in Gothic gemre for the simple fact that no self respecting Goth would ever take them seriously Evanescence needs to stop thinking about selling records and concentrate more on gaining respect or wind up like so many mainstream bands and becoming has beens Porkchop

-

In my opinion, Evanescence is simply a "softer" metal band. And if Him is metal, than Evanescence is too. And if they are goth or not, i would say not. Just... softer

Other bands on the list - Goth or not?
Leaving aside Evanescence for now, I would dispute a few more of those on the list. Therion, for instance - is there really anyone who would consider them goth metal? Not only that, doom/death bands like My Dying Bride and Anathema are also on there, but shouldn't be --MockTurtle 02:37, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC).


 * In the narrow sense, Therion is a symphonic death metal band. However, "goth metal" in its broader sense is relating to any combination of some kind of metal with folk\opera\goth elements.
 * Anathema and My Dying Bride are doom metal bands, but bands that uses gothic keyboards (and violin) and not employing a female vocals, and it was described in the article. In the early 1990's they were part of the forming goth metal movement, but while the goth metal evolved in Scandinavia into "beauty and the beast" style (see TOT and Tristania) they remained in goth metal's early doom stage. They are well described as gothic doom metal bands, at least in their early-1990's phase. MathKnight 13:17, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Seraphim and Edenbridge. I can see how Nightwish are power gothic, but not so much on those two.

Nightwish are some kind of gothic hybrid. Anathema and My Dying Bride are *definately* more doom than goth. Though i'd hesitate to put them in the same kind of kettle of fish as say Candlemass who are definately doom. Edenbridge don't describe themselves as Gothic metal. They called themselves "angelic bombast metal" or some such trash last i checked. Seraphim are gothic metal.

---

If you said to any real Gothic Metal fan, that 'Gothic Metal is related to any metal using Opera/Folk/Gothic Rock elements' you would be promplty hit repeatedly. Folk elements are in Folk Metal, Opera based elements are of the genre Symphonic Metal. Oh, and the Gothic Metal scene hates being called Goth Metal. Maybe you should interview bands and get to know the scene before making rash assumptions with no real knowledge. Therion is the Proto-Symphonic Metal band much like Black Sabbath is the Proto-Doom Metal band. Also Therion hates Gothic Metal, and the band members have been arrested more than once for attacking a fan who has called them as such. Therion has also never had anything to do with Gothic Metal, having worked in the Symphonic Metal scene since their creation. Nightwish is also Power Metal, using a piano based VSTI and having a Female singer doesnt change the genre of music. They started off as Power Metal long before Tarja joined and have remained that way. Also note again, the musical composition is completely different to that of Gothic Metal, as you can read in the edited article. 1 vocalist akin to Symphonic Metal doesnt make a Gothic Metal band. Anathema and My Dying Bride are Doom Metal, period. They helped found the Doom Metal scene and are reknown around the world in the Doom Metal scene. They have nothing to do with Gothic Metal, save they use a keyboard. Dont think they arent Doom Metal simply because they are more modern Doom, and helped start the Gothic Doom subgenre that Gothic Metal comes from. Edenbridge, having played with the band and worked with them previously, are Symphonic Metal, they simply use higher notes than most current Symphonic Metal bands, one change doesnt define the genre. Seraphim are not Gothic Metal, check your musical composition notes again. The composition is nothing alike - Ley Shade Leyasu

If Evanescence is Gothic Metal then i have 6 heads and can fly by flapping my arms. Evanescence is a minstream hard rock band who sell themselves as mainstream goth, just because they try to sell themselves as gothic doesnt mean they are AND THEIR DEFINATELY NOT METAL, as for the new so called scene open your eyes guys the gothic scene never died it just went underground for awhile not unlike the Grunge scene (just because Nirvana is no more doesnt mean the grunge bands are no more in seattle . As i said before Evanescence needs to stop concentrating on selling lots of albums and try concentrating on getting more respect among their peers right now no hard core gothic metal band or fan for that matter takes them seriously they should give up selling themselves as gothic and portray themselves as what they really are a rock band no more Porkchop

tidy up
This article is okay, but it could do with being split up a bit more (not into separate page, I hasten to add).

By way of an example, the following are sections from the articles on Gothic music and Goth that could conceivably have corresponding sections added (or existing content placed into sections) on this page. While some of these are probably redudant because they appear on other pages (predecessors) and others would be different because of this is a different genre (how many generations of Goth metal are there? Are there any generations to speak of at all?)

Origins and influences First Generation Second Generation Third Generation Musical Predecessors Musical arrangements Modern subculture Gothic horror References See also

I found the musical arrangements section on the music page to be interesting (even though I'm not a musician), though I couldn't say how accurate a lot of the information is.

talk about other things
How many other Goth-related articles are there on Wikipedia? How good is the related articles section of the main Goth entry?

Goth or Gothic
"Goth" metal isn't really the best title. It's more commonly called Gothic Metal, and Goth Metal suggests it only has to do with goths or goth music, which isn't accurate with all the different thing GM's become (not that it really was in the first page). Should it be switched around?


 * I am also prefer the name Gothic metal, it seem to describe more properly the music - which is influenced more by medieval Gothic music rather than goth rock. MathKnight 07:07, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I third that. And also, Google favors the term (527,000 hits for "gothic metal" vs. 127,000 for "goth metal").  Are there any objections to my moving the page to Gothic metal? --Idont Havaname 1 July 2005 23:53 (UTC)
 * Change it - this really is one of the few places that seemed to favor "goth metal." Not the best for an online reference.
 * Ok. Done. --Idont Havaname 00:41, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Gothic Metal is what the fans of the genre call it, calling it Goth Metal implys they are a Nu-Goth band in allegiance with Goth-Metal.net which is a plain out insult. Also, the two names mean completely different things. Gothic Metal got its name from being based around the Gothic Ages and Romanticide themes. Goth-Metal which is the name that comes from Nu-Goth implys that its metal done by supposed 'Goths'. Gothic Metal bands and fans hate being called Goth-Metal and usually do attack anyone on site who calls them it. - Ley Shade Leyasu

External links to official band sites
All of these links to the bands' sites are redundant, since the articles for the bands themselves have those links, and Wikipedia is not a web directory. I'd like to remove those, if it's ok. --Idont Havaname 1 July 2005 23:55 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would look better cleaned up. Go for it.
 * Yes, they can have them in their own wiki if at all.

Romanticide And Fantacide
To clear it up, as most people probaly dont know what the two are. Romanticide is the tale of romantic lore that ends in death of one or both partners, (Romeo and Juliet, Beauty and the Beast). Fantacide is the Fantasy Based Romance that ends in tragedy, (Snow Snow White, Her Rapunzel). Most bands write their own storys in this manner. The words are actuall words, but i also have all the spelling abilitys of a learning impaired mosquito. - Ley Shade Leyasu
 * Thanks for doing that. I was looking for articles on those, and they weren't there, so I substituted Romanticism and Fantasy for the time being.  Thanks for clearing that up.  --Idont Havaname 02:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

The list of bands that are not gothic metal
In the interest of neutral point of view, it would probably be best if we did not include a list of bands that are not gothic metal. Other genres' articles do not do this, and if this article did, then that would set off a flurry of controversy as bad as "Is (band name) punk rock or just pop punk?", a topic that's been beaten to death on many forums. We could probably split the list of gothic metal bands into its own article at List of gothic metal bands if necessary (it isn't long enough to justify doing that yet), but if the list of "not gothic metal" bands were made into its own article, it would be deleted without a doubt. If somebody wants to know if a specific band is (or isn't) gothic metal, then the talk page is always open, and of course it's already been used for the ugly Evanescence case. --Idont Havaname 02:02, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Fair enough i wont dispute that, and ill leave that be - on note of the Nu-Goth thing DANTE! Evanescence fronted the idea and were the front of it. Reposting it back to what it just was, before Idont edited it out parts.

Leyasu's edits
I, like others, find little rationale to user Leyasu's revamp of the page. Like the removal of pre-1990 influences - Christian Death, Samhain and Celtic Frost (all progenitors or indirect progenitors of the Gothic Metal genre). Also, the removal of most of the "List of Gothic Metal bands" list has also been without any explanation. Mention of "nu-goth" seems to be a neologism/POV and the extended nature of what band is or isn't true "gothic metal" is turning the page into a rant zine. Leyasu - It was fine the way it was; please leave it as that. --Danteferno 02:40, 4 November 2005 (UTC) --- The removal of pre history is because they didnt have any influence on Gothic Metal, they influenced Gothic Doom
 * Not true


 * Yes it is. Go check any Doom Metal article. And the history of Gothic Metal with the bands themselfs. Also try actually living through it and being part of it. Leyasu

Also, the list was wrong and i found all of 2 bands on there that had anything to do with Gothic Metal, most of them where Symphonic Metal, Gothic Doom Metal and Black Metal.
 * You did quite a bit more than just remove a few bands.


 * Yes i also added in what Gothic Metal is. A small list of bands as and when i have time to update it. And i corrected the history which isnt to do with Gothic Metal, but is to do with a form of Doom Metal, and is mostly wrong anyway. Leyasu

I am simply editing this having worked, and working with most of the bands inside the Gothic, Gothic Doom and Symphonic Metal genres.
 * If that were really the case, the edits you made would be accurate.


 * Yes because your POV that you read on Kerrang or MTV's website is so much more accurate than the bands, the scene, or the people who work in it. Leyasu

It wasnt fine the way it was either, as if you hadnt noticed, their is a whole bunch of Gothic Metal bands currently black listing your site and Goth-Metal.net. Your page was pretty much nothing to do with Gothic metal in the end, and was full of wrong assumption.
 * ''There's no explanation as to why there's "wrong assumption".

Christian Death, Samhain, and Celtic Frost are all ancestors in influencing the Gothic Metal scene in Europe and abroad. Do some research on Google.''
 * I dont need to research on Google, and as i previously said, i can drop a petition from other 5000 bands in your lap if you like. As i work in the scene, already youve started getting comments from people who disagree with you. And, there is no accurate information in your article about what it is. And as i previously mention, non of those bands had anything to do with Gothic Metal, Celtic Frost working in the Thrash scene and Christian Death being part of the Death Rock (Pre-Gothic Rock) scene. Both of which helped form Gothic Doom. And your personal wants and not wants dont define history. Leyasu

If you want to reword what ive said or make it easier to understand, im cool with that as my language skills can be lacking.
 * There are more reasons to revert the page back than just the obvious spelling errors and grammar mistakes.


 * Such as what? Oh, you dislike what it is as i mentioned at the START of the damned thing. As i mentioned about people like you who throw fits about what Gothic Metal actually is, opposed as to what they want it to be. Leyasu

But your information was mostly wrong, and ive done nothing but correct it on request of many people and bands themselfs. - Ley Shade Leyasu
 * If 3 people (myself, Idont haveaname, and Ray Dassen) are reverting back your edits, I think it's obvious as to which edit(s) are inaccurate, unsourced, hearsay and wrong. AGAIN, LEAVE THE PAGE ALONE.

--Danteferno 11:05 04 November (UTC)
 * Well i fail to see Idont haveaname reverting back the page, and he just tided up the NOTES from the BOOK about GOTHIC METAL to be more appropriate to Wikipedia. Your argument has been based on nothing more than assumption and POV youve gained from fan sites. Where as i actually work with the bands. Also, go read your and mine and you will see mine is a lot more informative. I will keep reverting it everyday until its amended to be correct. You dont like that, go join Goth-Metal.net where all the kidling fans live who dont even listen to Gothic Metal. Leyasu

IDont i ask for your opinion in this matter as what ive put is from years of working in that form of music, being part of this form of music and knowing the bands personally. I also explained in far better detail what is and isnt Gothic Metal and pointed out all previous mistakes. I ask for your opinion in this matter, as only Dante seems to disagree with me. - Ley Shade - Leyasu
 * There's absolutely no source or explanation in your edits. Your article is simply "the goth metal scene became nu-goth, or symphonic goth" and other personal speculation. And Evanescence have about as much to do with "Gothic Metal" as Tori Amos. They are an alternative rock band, not a gothic metal band. If you check your revert history, records will show that 3 people have disagreed with you. --Danteferno 11:20 04 November (UTC)
 * If you chekced the revert history you will know the first, edited out because it was uninformative and the second touched it up to be more appopriate after reading it. Suggestion, you check the revert history and we will wait until opinions are gained from others. And user Porkchop obviously agrees with me. Oh, and if you had read it, i had specifically mention that Symphonic Metal, which has similarites to Gothic Metal arose, and the Nu-Goth scene is a newer one. There is no Bias in what i say, just accurate information. So i can edit it and make it a foor long if you want, or keep it condensed for Wikipedia. Your choice. Leyasu

Nu-Goth
Nu-Goth is the term that as forementioned bands coined themselfs as in regards to the form of music they were adapting. They said that they were Nu-Goth bands taking Nu Metal and making it more 'Gothic'. They came up with the name and advertised it, and still do. It drives a rift between Nu Metal and Gothic Metal further, as Gothic Metal and Nu-Goth sound most nothing alike. And many Symphonic Metal and Gothic Metal bands have openly joined the growing Nu-Goth craze. The Nu-Goth's motto and headline for devolpment is, 'The New Way Of Gothic Music'. Just thought id apologise if the way i type things comes off as Neoglism/POV. My language skills arent the post, so feel free to reword it to make it less standoffish/arrogant/agrresive if you so wish. Leyasu
 * I googled "nu-goth" and came up with NO RESULTS as to how this term has anything to do with Gothic Metal. It seems to have connotations to "gothic themed nu-metal bands",newer EBM Industrial bands,or techno.It's only used towards Nightwish and Lacuna Coil on discussion boards amongst those who don't like these bands. So, even if your article remained, there would not only be inaccuracy but a great deal of NPOV faults. --Danteferno 12:04 04 November (UTC)


 * Yeah because i dont deal in POV, i deal in what it is, and what it isnt, so research can be done accuratly and informativly without my personal view on anything being introduced. If you want to write your personal views, then go do it on MTV's website. Leyasu

Hey Leyasu Never ever stop posting you know your stuff ignore the teeniee boppers and keep your posts up to date so real music fans can research properly and learn a thing or two about music as for the other postsPorkchop