Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 2

Archives
For previous discussion, see Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 1.

What Is Wrong With Leyasu's Edits:
Because Leyasu cannot give thorough reasoning as to why he thinks the old edit is incorrect, let's go over his: Gothic Metal is a genre of Metal that first appeared in the early 90's. With links to 1980's bands like Christian Death, Samhain, and Celtic Frost.
 * Quote that anywhere. Also if you want a page on Gothic Doom. Go write one, i will happily correct any mistakes on that as well. Also look into bands like Chalice, and Marys Only Lamb. It wasnt all just big known around the world bands that do things you know. Leyasu
 * There was a page on "Gothic Doom" and it was eventually deleted because it has virtually the same characteristics as "gothic metal".


 * And who deleted it? you? The charecterstics share commonalities, but its a subgenre of Doom Metal. It is, put most basically, Doom Metal with elements of Gothic Metal. And no, My Dying Bride are very different genre to Trail of Tears. The sound is different because the composition of the two Genres is different. Leyasu

Which is funny because the Gothic Doom page was right and this wasnt. And this one isnt. Also, a book of Metal Genres is commishened (Spell?) to be released soon, which most of what ive said is the notes from. This books i also commished by bands thoughout all forms of metal. I can think of no better source to cite once its released. And please explain to me any musical composition points that are the same in Gothic Doom and Gothic Metal. Leyasu ''Its first origins was with bands such as The Gathering, Sweet Nightmare, Moonspell and Theatre of Tragedy. These bands created the first symbiotes of Gothic Doom, which later went on to further Gothic Metal.'' WRONG. Gothic Doom evolved from Paradise Lost/Anathema/My Dying Bride. And who are Sweet Nightmare? Whoever they are, definitely not an instigator of the genre. (The first result on Google is a 1998 movie!)
 * Yes because every band in existance has a website, oh yes. Also Anathema and My Dying Bride refuse all ties with Gothic Doom, the metal community worldwide refuses ties between them with Gothic Doom. Gothic Metal bands will tell you they come from Gothic Doom. And the bands your citing created Gothic Metal will tell you they had nothing to do with it at all. Leyasu
 * Again, cite your sources. The bands Napalm Death and Carcass claim they have no relation with grindcore, yet they obviously started the genre.


 * Ask any person who listens to Death Metal, works in either Grindcore or Death Metal, or the bands involved. All of them will tell you that Carcass has nothing to do with Grindcore. Also, musical compostion with similarities between them is a miniumum. Leyasu

Bands often tend to take their musical influence from Doom Metal bands or Black Metal bands, taking the melody ideas from these genres. The only thing Gothic Metal has in common with Black Metal is that the two genres some times fuse together, but they are looked at as two different genres by purists. Again, WRONG.
 * Yes so you know musical composition then? You know all about how the instruments are played and the synologies (spell?). Sorry dear but go back and get a few courses in music like i did before you start running your mouth that the musical composition is nothing alike. Leyasu
 * Personal attacks and internet sock puppets (Flagrancy, "Porkchop") don't get one to any place.


 * Still awaiting proof these 'Sock Puppets' have anything to do with me. Leyasu

 Gothic Metal generally has a high sound quality, but thats only due to the fact the only bands in the genre have the money for high quality equipment. Complete POV speculation with no references or examples.
 * And that is just the Pot calling the kettle black. And when the kettle fails to be black. The pot paints it black. Your thing is pure POV OUTSIDE of the Gothic Metal scene with no real knowledge of what your on about except for repeating what a music magazine says. Convieniently its the same magazines that claim Limp Bizkit is Death Metal and Kid Rock invented Thrash Metal. Leyasu
 * Again, cite sources regarding which magazines call Limp Bizkit "death metal" and Kid Rock "thrash metal".


 * Kerrang Magazine. I dont know what issue number due to the fact i dont collect them. However it has been read on there. It has also been announced on MTV several times. The internet doesnt define everything. Leyasu

The atmosphere doesnt share the morbidity of Doom Metal, however. More broad POV speculation with no references or examples.
 * So lets combine Trail of Tears and My Dying Bride. And yes we will do it musicially. No they dont have the same atmosphere at all. Yes Trail of Years ises the same sort of atmosphere a whole bunch of Gothic Metal bands use. My Dying Bride dont. Leyasu
 * Just because they don't sound like exactly the same band doesn't mean they're two different genres.

''In early 2000's Nu Metal band Evanescence released the album Fallen. This hurt the Gothic Metal scene badly, as it was later learned by many bands that Evanescence and pirated the songs, stealing them from smaller bands in the Gothic Metal community. This sent Gothic Metal into a stunted stage where many bands refused to put out albums, fearing they too would be ripped off.'' "Evanescence" have always been irrelevant to the Gothic Metal genre because they were never part of it. The only connection they had was through media associations because the lead singer had influences which included Lacuna Coil and Nightwish. And the part about "many bands refusing to put out albums" because of this is obvious speculation (or simply untrue) as there are no quotes from said "bands".
 * Well earlier you moaned i was quoting my sources, no your moaning because im not. Also, you dont have to be a genre of music to have an impact on it. Saying what you just said above not only says 'History didnt happen coz i dont like it', but also crushes your already wrong argument about Celtic Frost having any musical influence on bands like Penumbra and Artrosis. Leyasu
 * Please state where I said Celtic Frost sounded like those bands. You're getting a bunch of false information from nowhere.


 * That is the implication of your words as according to you those bands sound like Cletic Frost because they created Gothic Metal. Which is funny when neither have anything to do with Celtic Frost. If they had influence on the Gothic Doom scene, all well and good. But that is Pre-Gothic Metal history. Leyasu

In 2004, Nu Metal bands Lacuna Coil Lacuna Coil are not (OBVIOUSLY not) a Nu-Metal band.
 * Yes they dont rap, woop dee doo. Sorry but again, go back and take Musical Comp and Music Theory in school/college/wherever. Using an Accoustic Guitar, having a female singer and wearing lots of black doesnt make them Gothic Metal. Musically, they write and play in the same style as Nu Metal, only the sound is different. And sound doesnt define genres.
 * Tell us who (besides you) thinks Lacuna Coil are nu-metal.

In addition to spelling, grammar and overall non-encyclopedic wordage, I rest my case (a very good one at that) as to why the old version should remain. --Danteferno 00:15 05 November (UTC)
 * Go look up above. Your case is flawed and people are telling you that your wrong. Spelling and Gramma, if you took the time, seeing as your so picky over it, could be corrected. The old version also says nothing about what Gothic Metal is and isnt. And also the history is mostly, unrelated. I will keep posting mine as you do yours, as you said a revert war wont help, you quit it. Leyasu
 * The only people telling me that I'm wrong are you, you, and you

(Leyasu, "Pork Chop" and Flagrancy - The IP's for each name are identical.) This is getting to be a waste of time and insulting. --Danteferno 12:20 05 November (UTC)
 * Yes that would make sense if i even knew Flagrancy. Second i know of Porkchop because ive worked with him in the past. Doesnt help he is Canadian either. Feel free to check Ip Adresses yourself IDont. Leyasu


 * Here are a few Wikipedia policies that might help, and you might know about them already: cite your sources, no original research, be civil, neutral point of view, Wikipedia is not a battleground or a soapbox, and no personal attacks. Topics like this one are risky; don't just put stuff in an article without citing credible sources (and forums are almost always not credible sources).  Otherwise, and especially on a topic like this one where a lot of poeple hold strong opinions, a reader will look at it and decide that it reads more like a rant than an encyclopedia article. --Idont Havaname 03:01, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Dante, your argument is completely POV. Leyasu's edit provides the correct history behind Gothic Metal, yours does not.--Flagrancy 05:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Flagrancy, your name is completely an internet sock puppet.


 * Please explain how he is an internet sock puppet Dante, and why you didnt sign that comment. Leyasu
 * For the same reason that I, too (or anyone for that matter) could make a second Wikipedia account with no other purpose/contribution history but a single post to give support to myself and belittle the opposition. This is getting very juvenile. --Danteferno 12:50 05 November (UTC)


 * Right and im sure you can check the email and ip adress or whatever it is that computer literate people do. As thats not me nor do i know them. Leyasu

Sources, As Idont Haveaname Requested
I have added reputable off-site links to the 1983-1990 section which Leyasu has since been removing for inexplictable reasons. One of the sites include Allmusic.com, which IMHO is a reliable source of band biographies and genre info 95%-100% of the time. Danteferno 12:22, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Notice thats your opinion like your whole article. Also, Allmusic.com has been discredited several times by bands. I will find the articles showing that up if they are still available. Allmusic.com is also discredited in a number of books, alongside sites such as Metal Archives, Goth Metal.net, Wikipedia.org and Download.com as being inaccurate. I will also get the titles of those as is possible. Leyasu
 * How about providing us with these "articles"/"sources" first before aggressively reverting this article back to your version? Also, how is Allmusic.com "my opinion"? I don't work or have any affiliations with the site. Danteferno 12:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You just stated above it was your 'opinion' they were accurate. It doesnt mean they are. I also found that most of what youve written is done from other sites that admit to being, original research. I will also go happily retrive those links if you want. Leyasu
 * If you or your internet sock puppets Clontarf-the-mad, Flagrancy, or "Porkchop" could provide links supporting your article and explaining why many gothic metal bands think Allmusic.com is incorrect, please do so. We've been waiting since day one.-- Danteferno 12:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Ok now i ask you to prove these people as 'sock puppets' of mine, i read up on Wiki about them. I fail to see how random people stopping by telling you that you are wrong, is them being my sock puppets. Last time i checked this discussion board was for discussion. Not you saying everyone who disagrees with you is a sock pupper of x person. Leyasu

@@@@@Leyasu's right, you're wrong.Just face it, YOU ARE WRONG! leave the page as Leyasu did it, and, before you open your yaps, try listening to the music so you know what you're talking about! Clontarf-the-mad 14:48, 5 November 2005 (UTC)Clontarf

Pre Gothic Metal History
Why dont you create another Gothic Doom page. Im mostly clued up on the the Gothic Doom scene 1990's onwards to now. You obviously have a better grasp of it before then. Pool the knowledge together and link the thing into the History of Gothic Metal. That way people can find accurate, reliable information on Pre Gothic Metal influences and designs that contributed to the founding of Gothic Metal. Leyasu

Revert War
This is getting stupid. Look in the paragraph above. Mine is a more descriptive and accurate version of what you put. Ive already said that you should pool your knowledge of Early Gothic Doom with my knowledge of Later Gothic Doom to create an article that links to this one. Your being the one whos being juvenile more so then me. Seriously, stop this revert war. And couple both our good aspects to make a better, and more informative set of articles. Leyasu Speaking of revert wars, I've protected this page to interrupt this revert war. Once people are ready to contribute to this article in a collaborative instead of confrontational way, I'll unprotect it. - A Man In Black (conspire | past ops) 18:02, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
 * That is fine and understandable. I however ask that people read both versions and decide in refinement which is more informative and read reasons behind both arguments so fair judgement may be made. I also still implore that both articles should be used for key points and that a Gothic Doom article should be made to both explain the genre and to explain the origins of Gothic Metal, using both key knowledge from myself and Dante. Leyasu


 * Thank you for protecting the page.


 * Without playing the blame game, the main disagreement apparently has to do with the historical origins of the article topic, which were consistently reverted out sans reason. When sources were added, the article was reverted again with claim that these sources were "discredited" or proven "wrong" by bands of the article subject. However, there was no website source to provide back-up of this claim - no interviews, no counter-websites, nothing. If such existed I would be very obliged to remove my sources and find other back up, but alas, I was never provided with such counter-information, and likewise, no sources were provided for content in the newer version.


 * When i offered to cite sources offline you said that wasnt allowed and was wrong. You also said it wasnt acceptable. To this i say not everything can be found on the internet. Leyasu
 * How does one go about using "non-website/non-published sources" as proof for a web-based article? --Danteferno 00:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This is one im working on. Also citing sources that claim speculation with no proof they are right is just repeating what others say. If i hear on the street someone saying that all dogs have three legs and go around repeating it, it wouldnt make me right. When if one looks for themselfs, all dogs dont have 3 legs. Leyasu
 * Working on "what"? The way you seem to be basing your info is "because I say so", "my friends at clubs say so", or "300 unnamed bands I know offline think so." Do you really think that is a reliable source of information? --Danteferno 12:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I apologise if it comes across that way. But your sources are doing the exact same with just smaller numbers. Also, i have already made argument that just because every person and band in the scene doesnt have a website, doesnt mean they are wrong. I also have written down the basics of the composition (without using composition language as im sure not everyone would understand it). So the differences should be plainly obvious to someone who actually listens to the music. Leyasu


 * Another flaw I (and others) found in the newer edit is that it seems to read like opinion. For example, the part about gothic metal bands using expensive equipment and having a lot of money. Even if source was provided (i.e., tax returns showed Josh Silver's Keyboard worth $25,000) it would be irrelevant to the article, as most famous bands use pricey
 * equipment, anyway.


 * If you think that reads like opinion thats fair. I can see your point on that part, and if you had brought that up before i wouldve taken it out. I also didnt say they used expensive equipment. I said the sound quality was generally high due to better technology being available. If you want that removed, that is fine and i wont contest it. Leyasu


 * If a band like Lacuna Coil are a nu-metal band, what are they doing in the Gothic Metal article in the first place? This is another example of opinion. In reverse fashion, like The Beatles being called a Boy band for their popularity, eventhough they were a rock n roll/psychedelic band.


 * The musical composition of Lacuna Coil and Gothic Metal are nothing alike. And they are in the Gothic Metal article because you put them there under the same basis as i explained in the revised Misconceptions catagory (spell?). Lacuna Coil's musical composition is the same as that of Nu Metal, even though the sound is different. I am completely indifferent to the bands, and listen to a lot of Nu Metal myself. I just happen to know musical composition and that the sound of a band and the clothes they where doesnt define what kind of music they are. [[User:Leyasu|Leyasu]
 * There's absolutely no indication anywhere on the internet (other than here, your claim) that Lacuna Coil is a nu-metal band. I googled "Lacuna Coil" and "nu-metal" in the same search-string and came up with nada, zilch, zip. I've heard all their albums and they sound nothing like nu-metal. If you can find a website article (not forum) that tags them with this genre, let us know. --Danteferno 00:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Again i tell you to try looking at the musical composition. No they dont 'sound' like a Nu Metal band. But then again i can write Nu Metal music and play it with presumubly pop instruments. Its sound then becomes 'pop' but its composition, its key element, is Nu Metal. Also im still waiting for you to find me one source that 'isnt' a website that is run fans of the band, or, people claiming speculation. And im also waiting on your explanation on how they arent a Nu Metal band just because they dont 'sound' like one, considering Evanescence is also Nu Metal and sounds similar to Lacuna Coil themselfs. Leyasu
 * Again, the burden of proof is on you for making this claim. "Fansites" aren't the only game in town, there's also reviews and interviews. Until you find us back-up, this will be a minority opinion.--Danteferno 12:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Previously you claimed interviews where not reliable to discredit my point on the bands themselfs wiling to tell you that they had no part in Gothic Doom and that the Gothic Metal bands will tell you that they had no influence from the bands you claim they do. Also, reviews by sources that claim speculation, which has been every single one that you have claimed, doesnt work. So you cant call me for speculation when your citing sources that all speculate themselfs. Leyasu
 * WRONG. Please cite where I said published interviews were not reliable. This debate is truly going to the dumps.Danteferno 14:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Its somewhere in the archive thats been created. When i have time to go through everything in the archive for one quote, i will do. Leyasu


 * I'm open to ideas about what you think could be done to solve this, whether that means having both versions scrapped and the whole article re-written, or coming to a consensus with sources. (The ladder at this point seems to be borderline impossible with the party reverting the page, as messages in the edit history will show.) --- Danteferno 19:50, 5 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I have already previously suggested pooling knoweldge to make a better, more accesible article. But you have blatantly just reverted back the page with little to no thought or care. Thus there is many possible soloutions and you have chosen to ignore any offers at disccusion or comprimise i have attempted to make. Leyasu
 * No, 2-3 days later, URLs of this "knowledge" were not provided to myself, Ray Dassen or Idont haveaname. Each time I asked,you said you were either looking for it,had problems finding it, or it wasn't web-based. Now, the page is protected and both myself and you will probably be suspended for 3 Revert Rule Violations. I'm beginning to lose faith that the URLs/sources you're alluding to exist, which is quite disappointing, considering the length of which this dispute has been drawn out. --Danteferno 00:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You see im still wondering why your so keen on it being only 'Urls' when if you go to any Gothic themed club, ask any person into the music, ask any of the bands or people who work with them, they will tell you yout wrong. Again, youve quoted someone saying they are, someone who admits to claiming speculation with no actuall listening or ideals of musical composition. And in the end its the same case as with the dog. Just because you have several people telling you all dogs have three legs, when they havent seen a dog, doesnt mean that they are right over the smaller group who have seen dogs. I hope you understand the metaphor/analogy. Leyasu
 * "going to a Gothic themed club, asking any person into the music, asking any of the bands or people who work with them" is considered hearsay information. Not everyone at a "Gothic
 * themed club" listens to gothic metal. Asking any person into the music is also speculation, as there are bands "any person" may like/dislike which may effect their opinion on genre, as it seems to have effected yours in the case of "Lacuna Coil". Lastly, if bands said that online biographical information written about them was dead wrong, this would eventually make its way on interviews or published. Insofar you have provided no examples of bands, cited no sources that the popular definition of the original edit is incorrect, and (most of all) you provided no evidence discrediting the information cited at Allmusic.com. We're still waiting for you to deliver the goods, Leyasu, and there's been NO delivery. --Danteferno 12:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Accusing me of personal opinion in regards to bands is folly. Especially when i have been to see Lacuna Coil twice before and like their music. Im indifferent when it comes to what music a band plays and what genres are because i studied them to better understand musical composition. Also, not everything is cited on the internet and as your previously said, 'how can one cite things not on the internet'. Patientce is a key element in anything. Also it seems your personal opinion regarding the band is affecting your view itself, as you seem to be arguing in favour of them because you like them. Leyasu
 * Let's make it simple at this point, because repeated requests seem to have been ignored: Until you can cite authors, books, interviews, reviews, bios (anything published) please do not modify the article. Until you can cite authors, books, interviews, reviews, bios (anything published) that proves what the original edit is wrong (and Allmusic.com is incorrect), please do not modify the article.Danteferno 14:20, 6 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I will edit that article until its correct. And keep pruning it until it reads its best for all people. And until you can cite sources that dont contradict each other or claim to be speculation, i will edit the page. So its either one version or the other, unless you want to sit down, and revise a new version using both. Your writing skills may be better than mine for the style preffered in writing this, but my knowledge on the given subject is far more broad and deep. Leyasu

Just what is gothic metal?
Maybe a little clarification on this would help. I would characterize gothic metal as doom metal with symphonic backing and beauty/beast vocals (i.e., operatic female vocals with male covocals). Rather than give BANDS that fit this classification, I will give some ALBUMS that fit this classification:


 * Tristania - Beyond the Veil (BtV should IMO define gothic metal)
 * Therion - Vovin
 * Lacuna Coil - Comalies (just barely fit the classification... the symphonic element is hardly there)

Albums that don't fit this classification:


 * Nightwish - Once (too fast-paced for doom metal - better classification is symphonic power metal)
 * Evanescence - Fallen (again, not doom metal)
 * Therion - Of Darkness... (no female operatic vocals)

Hopefully this will help. You guys definitely need to agree on a definition before this conversation will go anywhere. --wr
 * I'm in 100% agreement with your choice of bands for both inclusion and not.The whole disagreement is what Leyasu seems to see as gothic metal and its origins - for instance, he thinks Lacuna Coil are a nu-metal band and a group called "Sweet Nightmare" are a first and influential gothic metal band. The only band I found existing with the name "Sweet Nightmare" was a teenage rock band out of Canada that formed in 2003, only 2 years ago! I, along with others, have been pleading for him to provide internet sources for his changes and claims, and he keeps saying that they don't exist anywhere on the internet and it's what him and his friends think offline (at "clubs"). Danteferno 00:11, 07 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, if they're not on the internet and there are no sources to demonstrate that they ever even existed, then it is rather impossible to determine when they did come around. But one thing is for sure: if no one (or at least, very few people) know who they are, then they certainly couldn't have been all that influential. ;-) If they're not influential, then they're irrelevant. --wr
 * That's what I've been explaining to him (before and after the page protection) and this doesn't seem to be clicking. He thinks his non-web/unpublished/unknown sources justify his revamped version of the page. Danteferno 01:31, 07 November 2005 (UTC)

You see the thing is, pupularity in a band doesnt mean they influence the genre. Nightwish is Power Metal and heavily popular, and hasnt influenced the genre at all. The not so well known Fairyland however has influenced the genre a lot since their appearance. Popularity doesnt = influence. Also their is 3 bands called Penumbra. Bands often use the same names, and bands around the world often use a name without realising that a band before them has used it. After all, there was preivously 6 metal bands of varying age and popularity called Shaman! Also i dont attend clubs, ive simply worked them. Also, its not what me and my 'friends' think when the bands themselfs have said this, and if you go to ask the bands, and ask the fans, and the people who work in it and with the bands, they will tell you the exact same as i do. Leyasu - I have enclosed below, from the revised version. What exactly is Gothic Metal with decriptions of each element in brief. Thus should explain in basic what is and isnt Gothic Metal.
 * Gothic Metal is a genre of Metal that first appeared in the early 90's. It grew from the Doom Metal scene in parallel with the subgenre of Doom Metal; Gothic Doom.
 * And where/when did the "Gothic" part come in? Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The part that u reference in your pre 90's paragraphs. Leyasu
 * You mean the part you removed for no reason?Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The part i removed because it isnt history of Gothic Metal, its Pre-Gothic Metal history. The part ive suggested keeping but pointing out what it is and its role in a far clearer, and, more accurate manner. Leyasu


 * Its first origins was with bands such as The Gathering, Sweet Nightmare, Moonspell and Theatre of Tragedy.
 * Again, I haven't heard of a "Sweet Nightmare" till now. If they were a significant origin they would be better known, like mentioned in interviews by recent bands as influences. A search result of "Sweet Nightmare" came up with a rock band from Canada that formed around 2003(!), and per the website, the average age of each band member is 15 years old(!). As of this writing there is also no band at Metal-Archives with the name "Sweet Nightmare". Explanation? Danteferno  14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You overlook that many bands contruibuted to many forms of music that are not big or popular or well known. Also Metal-Archives fails to list many bands, and has also had to remove a lot due to bands complaining and threatening with lawsuits which previously could be found in Metal-Archives history. Leyasu
 * That's not how it works.Even if the band wasn't well known,they ::::::would still be brought up as an influence by newer bands. If the "Sweet Nightmare" from Canada is as much as an influence as you insist, they influenced the genre when they either weren't born yet or toddlers. Cite a website that explains this band (or maybe another band with the same name) and how they were part of the origin of Gothic Metal.Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)

Again this is funny how everything comes down to websites. Common knowledge is that Lacuna Coil is a Nu Metal band. A few springly fansites on the net mostly run by, and let me point this out, children, with no musical composition knowledge and pure speculation, is not a good source. Common knowledge outweighs a few printed documents by the uneducated. But as i said, im working on some way of accuratly getting my point across. As not everyone in the world has time to make a website over their favourite band. Leyasu
 * These bands created the first symbiotes of Gothic Doom, which later went on to further Gothic Metal.
 * This is already discussed in the original version (under different and much more informative wording.)Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Over time Gothic Metal was stunted in its growth several times, the most well known being the surge of Symphonic Metal bands in the mid 90's and the surge of Nu Metal bands using Keyboards in the Early 2000's.
 * Examples and sources, please. Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * You have two exmplaes there, and, following of the timeline and having interaction with the scene and music at the time grants such knowledge. Which shows you have no conception of what happened apart from fan-sites that are part of webrings that contradict each other. Leyasu
 * Again, fansites are not the only reference on the internet for bands. There's also reviews, interviews, and biographies. Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Gothic Metal is a relatively loose genre in the way it sounds because the genre is built and weighed upon its composition of songs and their parts. The overall sound in Gothic Metal plays a minor role to suffice only to depict between itself and other genres. Gothic Metal tends to lend itself musically to both Doom Metal and Black Metal. Bands often tend to take their musical influence from both Doom Metal bands and Black Metal bands, taking the melody ideas from these genres.
 * Again, cite examples please.Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Explain what you want by examples exactly, so i dont cite the wrong thing. Leyasu
 * Band names and why. Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)

Why what? Ask a question directly and properly and informatly so i know what your after. I also cant account for every single bands choice of influence. Leyasu
 * Thus, added in with Gothic Metals unique use of Duel Vocalists, Keyboarding and Acoustic guitar help distinguish the genre from others. Keyboards in Gothic Metal often play a major role in the music, sufficing to replace the second guitarist in bands, taking on the role of either lead or rhythm.
 * This, too, is already mentioned in the original edit with more
 * concise wording.Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This wasnt mentioned in the original edit at all, and if you go and look on it you can clearly see its not mentioned in it, at all. Leyasu
 * 'ORIGINAL EDIT: vocals are either sung by a male vocalist, female vocalist, or both. The male vocals are either in a deep tenor, or death grunt. Female vocals tend to be high and operatic, but sometimes sung in a regular tone...Along with percussion (and sometimes synthesizers), the pace and tone is sometimes dependent on the performance of the singer or the nature of the song.Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Synthesisers, controlled by Keyboards, are a part of the Gothic Metal genre and their use of them is a signature of the genre. Duel vocalists are also a signature so saying its sometimes done is like saying The Beatles sometimes played their instruments in a song. The vocals arent always dependant on the nature of the singer, and thats a personal band issue that arises in any form of music, most notably pop music. Leyasu
 * Acoustic guitars are sometimes present in Gothic Metal, and if a second guitarist is used, often is playing a form of acoustic guitar. Bass in Gothic Metal pays akin to the deep lowness of Doom Metal, and the brash harshness of Black Metal.
 * Lyrically Gothic Metal is centered around Romanticide and Fantacide. The time setting for lyrics is often in the New Age or Dark Ages, but can also be in Victorian, Edwardian, Romanian, or even modern day.
 * Already mentioned in the original version.

Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Again go and check the original version, it says the lyrics are centered around everything from hell to fantasy to depression to folklore. With no common tie whatsoever. If this part needs rewording minorly to be more 'concise' that is fine. Thats what this discussion board is supposed to be for. Leyasu


 * Most people mistake Gothic Metal for having depressive lyrics, or those focused around anger or satanism. Another unique thing to note about Gothic Metal is that lyrically bands don't write in the form of songs, they write in the form of books. This is so that each song acts as a story, or, chapter, inspiring people to listen to the whole album in order to hear the story, instead of just certain songs.


 * Vocalists in Gothic Metal borrow from two notes. First you have the Male vocalist who will use vocals akin to Black or Death metal.
 * "First you have" doesn't sound very ::::encyclopedic.Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Tbank you for pointing that out. It means it can be reworded better. How do you suggest it be phrased? Leyasu
 * To the original ORIGINAL EDIT on defining vocals. Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * See that fails to be constructive when your ORIGINAL EDIT was worded so it gives off completely the WRONG impression. I have changed 'First you have' to 'Firstly' as i forget when im trying sometimes not to talk like i do in casual person. Leyasu


 * The second vocalist is usually female, often using Soprano based vocals, or harmonic singing.
 * Already mentioned in different wording in the original version.Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Wording that implies that the female vocalist is the only vocalist which is incorrect. This wording makes it clear that there is two vocalists. Leyasu
 * ORIGINAL EDIT - vocals are either sung by a male vocalist, female vocalist, or both...Female vocals tend to be high and operatic Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * See point i made above. The wording their implies that vocals are done by one vocalist and that is RARE. I only know of three bands in the Gothic Metal genre that have done that. And one thing differntly to highlight the band doesnt change the whole genre. Leyasu
 * You will never find females doing Black or Death type vocals in Gothic Metal, as duel vocalists in the manner prescribed are the signature of Gothic Metal.


 * Drums are used to complement the music, using influences from many varying forms of music. The atmosphere is tailored to fit the song, warm and energetic, empty and enclosing. The atmosphere doesn't share the morbidity of Doom Metal, however.
 * This reads very POV/opinion: "warm and energetic", "doesn't share the morbidity of doom metal", etc. Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * This is contrasting. If it read POV then make suggestion on how it could be reworded instead of just criticising. I am intrested to here how to make the writing better. Leyasu
 * I suggest it remain as the original (current) version. Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If it was up to you the whole thing would be the original edit which is wrong and mostly misinformative, or, uneducating entirely. Please explain how and why it reads POV so i can correct it.


 * I hope that answers your question. Leyasu
 * No, it doesn't. What you did was deleted a bunch of content from the old version and then added new stuff that explains some things differently, brings up new points that seem to read like personal opinion, and confuse anyone not familiar with the genre looking for a definition. The early 80's gothic rock scene in L.A. and England played a large role in shaping the GM genre, and you seem to think this is incorrect information. Again, still no reason from you as to why.Danteferno 14:02, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Again it shaped the Gothic Doom scene which in turn helped shape the Gothic Metal scene. The connection is par sans. Would be better described as Pre Gothic Metal with minor rewording. Leyasu
 * Described in the 1983-1990 section which you removed in your new edit for no reason. Danteferno 14:52, 06 November 2005 (UTC)


 * No you didnt say it was Pre-Gothic Metal history you said it was Gothic Metal. Again, that part is fine. It just needs rewording in parts so it doesnt give off the wrong impression. Leyasu