Talk:Gothic metal/Archive 4

Consider The "Source"
Quoted allegations by user Leyasu:

"You already pointed out you have a problem with anyone editing anything you write because you claim your the only person who is right."

"Previously you claimed interviews where(sic) not reliable to discredit my point"

If you look back in the discussion history, no claim of either took place from yours truly. I have done nothing but encourage the inclusion of material (with published, verifiable sources, including interviews.) I certainly don't know how straw man arguments such as this will help Leyasu's position.

While we're on the subject, let's see what others have to say about the importance of using published sources on the internet:

User wr (24.255.166.222) wrote on 01:36 in Gothic Metal:Talk, 7 November 2005: "Well, if they're not on the internet and there are no sources to demonstrate that they ever even existed, then it is rather impossible to determine when they did come around."

User Idont Havaname wrote on 06:45, 5 November 2005 (UTC) in Leyasu's discussion page, "You seem like you do know a lot about the subject, it's best to go by this advice and make sure you cite everything."

That makes 3 people, including myself. So, I am bit confused how there is any right that one could justifiably refurnish an article without citing a source.

In addition, 2, so far, think Lacuna Coil are gothic metal (Myself and user wr (24.255.166.222) on Gothic Metal:Talk "What is gothic metal") One user (Leyasu) thinks they're nu-metal. Yet there's no other implication on the internet besides here that they are, or have been implied with this label. It seems to have started here.

2 so far (myself and Idont Havaname) apparently do not think "Nu-Goth" belongs in the Gothic Metal article. The limited reference seems to be applied to some bands that have no affiliation with heavy metal music or gothic metal at all (i.e. My Chemical Romance). Likewise, who is and isn't Nu-Goth is speculative and POV. (I must add that I am not the only person who called Leyasu's edits POV - See Idont Havaname)'s responses to his revision, above).

Just a little review of the discussion, which I think is quite telling.Danteferno 10:08, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I equally fail to see how this any reason to justify an article that is POV and Speculation citing sources that are POV and Specualtion. Also, the internet doesnt define everything. I can find an equal amount of websites that say Cradle of Filth is Black Metal, and an Equal amount saying they are everything but. And even then they are all nearly fan pages and speculation from people with no knowledge of the musical composition, or, have a very sided POV. Nu-Goth is a sketchy thing, and as i put in the revised version, it should be linked, as Symphonic Metal should, so people can look it up as and when they please. Thus it gets only a brief mention for purposes of comparison because its history of and related to Gothic Metal. I also have told you, that im citing sources and compiling them. I am peculiar, and do not want to cite sources until i have found a way of compiling all the information into one place. Also, the argument of, 'I couldnt find X on Google', isnt really a great argument to make on what Lacuna Coil is. Also, Nu Metal and Gothic Metal are composed quite differently and Lacuna Coils composition is Nu Metal. I can play a pop album using instruments akin to Gothic Metal. That doesnt make the album Gothic Metal, nor does it make the band such. Also their is numerous points in the Archives, and i could trawl through them all to quote you if i really wished to. In reference to WR making the comment about Sweet Nightmare, i removed them, as it was a 3 vs 1 one case and i saw no purpose in arguing it. Sorry if i cannot just magic everything at my finger tips, but if you must know, i have been finding articles about the Nu-Goth scene in Kerrang Magazine and Metal Hammer Magazine. I also have written to Wacken's manager about it to ask what he knows. Nu-Goth is a movement that is reletavily new and nobody bar the bands seem to know that much about it. As for Gothic Metal, again, to say Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal is to equally say that Evanescene is Gothic Metal, as they share the same composition and ideologies within the music. Sound doesnt define genres. Also, i would like you to explain, how you have come to the conclusion Lacuna Coil is Gothic Metal. And on a final note, IDont said the article READ POV, not that it was. Thats why i asked for him to explain to me why it does, and how it can be better worded so it doesnt. Leyasu


 * Well quit arguing, compile your sources and when you got everything taken care of, add to the article. What is this Sweet Nightmare band you keep menctioning too? Do you have any proof at all they exist? They failed the Google check unless you are talking about the relativly new Canadian band. --Arm 15:46, 13 November 2005 (UTC)


 * If already removed them due to points of Idont, im also revising again to remove certain things he has said sounds like slander,and also editing some small things he says sound biased or pov, that i dont see because its generally the way i talk. Also im still not excepting the age old argument of, 'I couldnt find X on Google so you are wrong'. If everything was on Google, id be able to find the cure to Aids, The Meaning of Life, and Truth Behind All Religion. Not 101 different speculations on it by 101 different people. Leyasu


 * Excuses, excuses. If this Sweet Nightmare band exists is there any proof you have to prove it's existence. If no web sites exist, well then I guess they were a pretty forgettable band if nobody rememberes them. Otherwise I just think your making this band up. --Arm 17:52, 14 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Think whatever you want. Firstly i didnt even know of the Canadian band. And second yes i do have proof of their existance because i own all three of their albums. Third, fan pages on Google doesnt define everyone. Leyasu

Questions from anon ("Metal Mayhem Rulz")
Hey wheres my past comments on Leyasu stop removing my postings Metal Mayhem Rulz
 * I deleted them because they were personal attacks. If you have a question to ask a particular user, ask them on their talk page rather than here. --Idont Havaname 23:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Gothic Metal is pretty crappy i recommend you stop listening to the above mentioned bands get a few facial pearcings lose the black outfit grow your hair put on some corpse paint and bang your head to some Slipknot a real metal band [[Metal Mayhem Rulz}}
 * To each their own, but we're here to make an article on metal that is historically thought of as gothic metal, and the article is currently protected to deal with disputes over its content. However, Slipknot is generally not referred to as gothic metal, and I think that Danteferno and Leyasu would both agree with that.  In fact, the Slipknot disambiguation page calls them nu metal, and the Slipknot article calls them alternative metal.  See Slipknot (band) for more information about that. --Idont Havaname 23:33, 12 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I fail to see how this is constructive. And wonder why this is even on the talk page. Leyasu
 * Basically as an answer to an FAQ; I've heard the "Slipknot is goth/gothic metal" argument quite a bit and just wanted to make it clear that they're not gothic metal in case anyone else comes by and asks about it, or demands that they are. Also, I wanted to maintain that future personal attacks will be deleted.  Due to the nature of dynamic IPs (many ISPs use them; AOL is one, and as an AOL user I'm occasionally blocked because I'm using an IP that somebody else used to vandalize pages, for example), an editor may come back under a different IP and never get messages that I leave on their talk page.  (Also - Leyasu, I know you have an account; please make sure to stay logged in so that it's easier to find your messages in the page history.) --Idont Havaname 20:55, 13 November 2005 (UTC)-->


 * Sorry, my browser deleted all my cookies without be being aware. So i had naturally assumed i was logged in. My apologies. Im unsure what to do with the Nu-Goth issue. Its definatly worth a mention as a budding movement. But im not sure wether to mention it here or add it into the Nu Metal page, or create its own. In essence its a crossover of Nu Metal and Gothic/Symphonic metal. Im just not sure what to do with it, or where to mention it to best effect. Leyasu

List of gothic metal bands - which bands to include
A point was raised in the "Current Revision" section that several of the bands mentioned in that revision have redlinked articles, though check to make sure that the band's names are spelled properly (since that would be a main reason for red links). I'd say only include those that do have Wikipedia articles. As for Leaves Eyes, how long they've been around is not the issue. They've released two albums that fit the style, so they should be on the list. I don't have Lovelorn, so I can't verify that entirely, but reviews tell me that it's relatively similar to Vinland Saga. I do have Vinland Saga, and it does seem like it's gothic metal according to the parts of the definition that we've agreed upon. --Idont Havaname 05:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If the duration of a band is not an issue, then by all means, put it on the list. From what seemed to be gathered from Leyasu, and I don't quote him on this - he only wanted the most comfortable, known bands on the list and none that would be categorized as "gothic doom". The more I research, however, "Gothic doom" really seems to be just an alternate term for melodic doom/death metal bands or gothic metal bands without a leading female vocalist. IMHO, however, before figuring out who does/doesn't belong on the list of bands, I want to see what becomes of the other responses to the overall "Revised Edition" - doesn't matter from who. There's a mess of contradictions, anachronisms, POV, and confusing bits - enough to warrant a complete re-write. (Since there's still no reason as to why a brand new article should have been written in the first place, where I - and perhaps a few others - stand is probably no secret.) Danteferno 14:04, 15 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'd say most gothic doom is probably closer to gothic metal in the proper sense. I added the melodic death metal article to the Heavymetal and Heavymetalfooter templates just in case you didn't know about it.  That article's list has bands like In Flames on it, and from what I've heard of In Flames their sound is not related to gothic metal.  Then again, my main reference point for gothic doom is Virgin Black, who does seem somewhat more on the gothic end of things than In Flames are.  So I'd be open to mixing the gothic doom bands in with the list, particularly since the separate article on gothic doom was deleted. --Idont Havaname 03:01, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we could agree on this (Gothic Doom essentially = gothic metal) but in re: to melodic doom/death, I meant bands like My Dying Bride, Anathema, Paradise Lost and on some instances Katatonia(early), Swallow The Sun, October Tide, Mourning Beloveth, etc. In Flames (just "melodic death") are a whole other genre in comparison. --Danteferno 04:55, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Another band that should be added to the list, with their current definition is Cradle Of Filth as it states very clearly on their page that they have progressed into a gothic metal band, even if there's disagreement on their first album or two. Really, they're probably the biggest band in this genre right now. They should be included on the list of bands.137.186.154.255 20:12, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Firstmost and first of, i apologise for my recent absence. Secondly, Gothic Doom (If you had cared to ask), Started off as a form of Doom Metal, (as we know) and as later progressed from that to include more elements of Gothic Metal. However, Gothic Doom is essentially Doom Metal with elements of Gothic Metal occasionally incorperated into it. Also Dante, Chalice and Ashes You Leave are both Gothic Doom bands with only female singers. On a final note, Cradle of Filth have nothing to do with Gothic Metal and never have, and as i stated several times, genres are weighed upon what they are, not what the sound of a band is. (Edit) I forgot to mention it before, but no, Gothic Doom is not essentially Gothic Metal, as A) Gothic Doom is a form of Doom Metal that came before Gothic Metal and then later evolved again incorperating elements from the evolved Gothic Metal, and, B) Gothic Doom musically is not alike Gothic Metal. Oh, and on the note of my article being wrong and point of view, yours is contradictionary, completely POV, and as is in the rules of Wikipedia, if you dont want people editing it, dont write it. You have made no constructive criticism towards it, and your article is still wrong. Also, the Gothic Doom article should be written again, as it is a growing scene itself. (Edit) The revised article and this discussion seems to be taking on a lot of form in the way of what to do about the Gothic Doom issue, and with inclusion of Gothic Doom in the list, shouldnt this article then be a Joined Article about both Gothic Doom and Gothic Metal? Leyasu
 * Yes, I'd say so. --Idont Havaname 03:33, 20 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I would say so, too - most of the time they have been referred to as "extreme gothic metal". They've also been labeled as "symphonic black metal" (The Flesh days, spec.). I definitely wouldn't call them a black metal band, though. --Danteferno 20:10, 20 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually no, they are a Symphonic Black band. They are not often referred to as Extreme Gothic Metal, apart from by Metal Archives and the people who work on it. Leyasu

Unprotecting
Taking a punt here, and on the assumption that the parties have either had a chance to talk things over, or else forgotten what they were arguing about, I'm unprotecting this article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:22, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Subpage for the revised version
I've created a subpage for the revised version of this article, per Leyasu's suggestion on my talk page. The subpage is at Gothic metal/Temp; also see my note at the top of that page. --Idont Havaname 06:41, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Copyediting the revised version...
I went ahead and archived our previous discussion about the revised version, since it was getting very long. I'm working on a copyedit of the revised version, but reading through it again, I have some questions. The rest of what I did was just an extensive copyedit for spelling, punctuation, and some issues with sentence structure. --Idont Havaname 01:52, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) The section describing the lyrics... is "Romanian" referring to the days of the Roman Empire?  If so, it should probably be "Roman" instead.  "Romanian" usually refers to the country Romania.  I've changed it to "Roman" for now, but if that's not correct then please change it so that it's right.
 * 2) I think it is necessary to link to concept album along with the discussion of albums' lyrics as having the "book" layout, so I've done that.  Furthermore, referring to any band as the most notable is POV, so I've reworded the part at the end of that paragraph about Penumbra and Silentium.  About Penumbra though, that band does not have an article here (Penumbra is a disambiguation page), so if they are notable enough to meet WP:MUSIC, which I'd assume they are, then somebody should write an article for them at Penumbra (band).  (I don't know much about that band, so it would be better for somebody who knows more about them than I do to write it.)


 * Their is many bands that are not listed on Wikipedia, half of the list on there in fact. Their is 2 bands called Penumbra as far as i understand, the Progressive Rock band of the 80's that was American. And the Gothic Metal band from France. http://www.penumbra-band.com/index_content.html is their website. Yes the Romanian was supposed to mean Roman, but i didnt realise there was a difference in meaning, so i apologise. And i would write another article on them, but i could only really do the musical side. I havent the patience to research all their history down to where their drummers mother was born, lol. Also, i dont think i spelt Romantacide/Fantacide right, but its not a word recognished in many dictionarys yet, though its a commonly used word by many people, much alike the word 'fuck' is. (As i understand, dictionarys update with new words every so many years). Btw i wasnt being vulgar, but i couldnt think of a better word to use. Leyasu


 * Yeah, I definitely agree. I don't think anyone who reads that is going to have a good idea what "romanticide" or "fanticide" is (The killing of fantasy and romance?) "Romanticide" happens to be a Nightwish song, which is ironic, considering Leyasu doesn't think they're a Gothic Metal band (an earlier rendition of his edits called them a "power metal" band) and as for "fanticide", your guess is as good as mine. (A sister band of Deicide, maybe?)--Danteferno 18:05, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I got the same impression about the words "romanticide" and "fanticide" that Dante did. "-cide" is usually used for types of killings, such as suicide, regicide, fratricide, etc.  Also, I have Nightwish's Once album, so I thought of their song "Romanticide" immediately after seeing the word in the revision.  I remember reverting those back to "Romanticism" and "fantasy" during the earlier stages of the revert war.  Leyasu, I definitely hear the other word you brought up a lot more often; in fact, I'd never heard or seen the word fantacide until your revision.  Are there other, more clear terms that can be used instead?
 * In addition, I found those Penumbra albums that Leyasu was referring to on Amazon, so that band does meet WP:MUSIC and you can go ahead and start an article about them if you want to. --Idont Havaname 02:08, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Something tells me that these 2 terms were recently made-up by one or a few people, because I couldn't find them anywhere on a Google search with connections to Gothic Metal, besides from the revision he made. Just Romanticide the Nightwish song. 'Romanticism' and 'Fanticism' would probably be themes of Gothic metal, though. Also, approximately one month has gone by and Leyasu still has not provided (to anyone) proof he thinks discredits the original page and backs up the page he made. Interestingly enough, Leyasu tried to discredit Metal-Archives - Metal-Archives, like Wikipedia, is a publicly edited website where band info is updated by registered users, not a corporation. I also did a search on "Metal Archives Lawsuit" or "Metal Archives Legal" and couldn't find evidence that they were litigated against, as Leyasu contends. With this and similar stuff, I think the relevance and seriousness of this debate (even for appeasement) is slowly shrinking away. --Danteferno 10:02, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the post below (starting with "I love your arguments Dante") is another example of the debate losing its seriousness. For instance, Leyasu wrote: Did you also know the average age of the people who update Metal Archives is between 14-16?; No statistical data/proof provided of this. Here's another example of what he wrote: Any site that can claim at any point that Iron Maiden is Gothic Metal (which came before them being changed to Thrash/Death and then NWOBHM) I have visited the website for years and not once has there been any indication that they were labeled as Gothic Metal. And what evidence was provided that they were sued, as Leyasu also claimed? None. Just more of the same bogus and infantile straw man arguments - for example, kind of as if I said I don't like SPIN magazine and that they called Neil Diamond the best Grindcore band in the world. I don't like SPIN magazine, but there is no proof that they ever called Diamond this. I essentially lied (if I meant it) in an attempt to discredit a magazine I didn't like. That's exactly what Leyasu did (and has been doing) Made up claims, made up terms, made up lawsuits, the list goes on.-Danteferno 14:23, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I wasnt even aware Nightwish had a song called that. Fantasy is a staple mark of Symphonic Metal and Power Metal, and its meaning is somewhat different to the word im used to hearing. Romanticide is used to mean, Romantic Tale that ends in Tragedy for one or both lovers, (Ie: Romeo and Juliet), and Fantacide is, Fantasy Tale that ends in tragedy for the key partys. If you know of a better word that means that (as ive heard it only used by A) The bands, and B) Random people when explaining something), put it there, as i do think ive spelt it wrong. But if you want to tinker around and explain it further, do it. (Edit) I reworded it myself, to exclude the two words. I dont know if it gets the point across exactly, but im sure one of you will get the point of it and edit it so its clearer. Leyasu


 * I love your arguments Dante. 'Its not on Google so it musnt exist'. Foolish, Wrong, and very bad. Metal Archives is updated by people, yes. Did you also know the average age of the people who update Metal Archives is between 14-16? Did you also know, they have commented several times they list bands as what they think the band 'should' be playing rather than what they 'are' playing. Also the general consensus of most people is against Metal-Archives. Yes, true, it does list a good very many bands. However it isnt a reliable source for what bands are. Any site that can claim at any point that Iron Maiden is Gothic Metal (which came before them being changed to Thrash/Death and then NWOBHM) is definatly not accurate. Also youve done nothing to discredit anything ive said except say, 'Google doesnt have a fan page about it so its wrong'. Again, thats not a good argument. And again, not everyone in the world makes fan pages of their favourite band, accurate or not. And if you had checked, i edited the version to remove the words and give better wording to their meaning, so public reading is easier. And also, try finding court case records on google about a minor, non major news breaking court case in your local town. Money bets you wont find one. Not everything is listed on Google, and when you provide argument other than, 'This fan page says this, that clashes with X other fan pages on Google', then you have room to argue. Leyasu


 * Accusations like that show cracks in your own argument dante. You have no proof i lied other than argument of you didnt find it through a search on google. Also, im indifferent to places, but i see no point in listing a place as informative, when most of it is wrong. Also, Metal-Archives themselfs announced both of those things, and if indeed you had been using it for years as you claim you have, you would know that. Also if Spin did say it, its not an attempt at pointing out a place u dislike. I dont mind Metal Archives for their extensive band listing, but they are wrong in most all their genre indexing, as its changed so often by so many people. And often the site doesnt give reason as to why anything is the way it is. Also, i havent made up terms when ive heard them and picked them up. I didnt realise they werent as common as i thought they were, and if had read the revised version, it has been rewritten to be more easily readable. I have also used Metal-Archives for years, so your argument is no more straw man than mine. And you cannot cat call me for not having sources available at a quick google search, when yours are even more speculative than mine. Again, you assuming i dont like something because i will openly discredit its bad points is foolish and wrong, and is the argument of petty school children. Common knowledge undocumented is often more valuable than wrong information that is. Would you believe a source that says all dogs have three legs because its printed, when common knowledge is they dont? Throwing arguments with me and claiming mine are 'straw man' Dante doesnt work, and let me remind you in the most polite way i can, that you still are yet to provide any source that isnt speculation, or POV, that backs up anything youve said, that dont contradict each other. My suggestion to you: help make a better article, instead of trying to enforce your own as the one true way. Leyasu

Is there anything left on the revised version that leaves room for misconception, makes it hard to read, is unclear, or otherwise not exactly 11 stars out of 10. If their isnt, i suggest posting the page now, as i personally fail to see any reason not to if their is nothing left on it that needs copyediting. Leyasu