Talk:Gothic music

"Darkwave" doesn't mean shit. It's a phrase used by Switchblade Symphony so as to not get tossed off of the Dark Harvest tour by Andrew "bite the hand that feeds me" Eldritch. Gothic means "Gothic Rock" to people who are not aware of Gothic Music. Not all music is rock. Not all music fans like rock. I love Gothic Music and I say "fuck rock 'n' roll". I am attracted to Gothic Music because it is not boring, insipid, tired rock music. Guitar/bass/drums/singer line ups are dull. Gothic music is made with pipe organs, cellos, violins, hammered dulcimers and so on. Which, last I checked, isn't fucking rock 'n' roll. Stop redirecting Gothic music to Gothic rock. That are in no way similar. Listen to Mors Syphilitica or This Ascension and then listen to The Wake or Astrovamps and tell me they are the same genre of music. Jesus fucking Christ I am so sick un these witless assclown and their redirects. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 05:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Dark Wave is a term from the 80s, used for the music of Joy Division or Depeche Mode. In those days there was no Switchblade Symphony. Gothic means Gothic rock. In the 80s, Gothic rock was a part of the Dark Wave movement, the dark side of New Wave. Your Gothic music definition is POV (Point of View) and is not scientific. --Breathtaker 09:32, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Can this be directed to Goth? Gah, I should apply to be an admin at some point... --MilkMiruku 15:04, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Whoever made the decision to redirect "Gothic music" to "Gothic Rock" apparently doesn't know their ass from a hole in the ground. -Unsigned 10:12 Sept. 20, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 02:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sadly not. Redirects to sections are not currently implemented as part of MediaWiki. Feel free to discuss this at the Village Pump though. --Cel es tianpower háblame 15:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * ah well.. how about to just goth then? gothic rock isn't really representative of the types of music goths listen to these days. --MilkMiruku 20:28, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, my friend because this is an encylopedia we must limit it to what can be cited and considered legitimate enough that one can state it as fact. Of course anyone can say "I am a goth" but because the term "goth" was used to assign a legitimate genre with its own set subculture and even "authorities" we have to stick to these. Therefore, while those at the forefront of the genre can be regarded and used we cannot use some kids who listen to metal music and think the word "goth" sounds spooky and use it to identify themselves in the vain attempt to solve erik erikson's stage of development "identity-vs-diffusion" (Bless those confused children.) People in the gothic subculture even call these individuals "spooky kids" in a derisive manner. Now you may not see it but the gothic subculture is alive and well in some areas and it is not ready to be diluted and the meaning "changed" just yet where it would turn into a description of metal music.


 * Gothic means all music that is Gothic, not just what Goths listen to. Which would then emmit such genres as Gothic Metal. Ley Shade 00:31, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Goths typically do not listen to metal. In fact, many despise metal. Also, Gothic music and Gothic Rock are in no way the same thing. One is rock influenced and one is not. The point in Gothic music is to avoid any and all modern forms of music and go with a more classical and/or opera style. Which would be sans rock. Usage of pipe organs, cellos, violins and so on in place of guitars and drums etc is indicative of said fact. So saying "I'm listening to Goth" does not indicate said person is listening to Gothic rock. They could be. But probably not. The Wake, Christian Death or Corpus Delicti could be considered Gothic rock. But Sopor Aeternus & The Ensemble of Shadows, Mors Syphilitica, Faith & the Muse (pre Vera Causa) and much of the music of Diary of Dreams are in no way "rock music". The whole point in the appearances, personas and taste in art and music when it comes to an actual Goth (and not some teen at Hot Topic) is their active rejection of most of what has taken place in the past 100 or so years. Up to and including rock n' roll. Hence their rather retro appearance. -Sept. 02, 1907 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk) 04:01, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Gothic means Gothic rock, nothing more. --Breathtaker 19:42, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * No, it doesn't. Gothic music is not rock influenced and, therefore, is not Gothic Rock. Mors Syphilitica sounds nothing like The Wake. 12:11, 15 October 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.72.84.29 (talk)


 * Mors Syphilitica/Reqiuem in White are Gothic rock groups. I don't know The Wake. --Breathtaker 12:32, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * then how about a quick disambig page, something along the lines of

The term gothic music has been used to refer to: --MilkMiruku 12:35, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Music related to the goth subculture
 * Gothic rock
 * Gothic metal

Because the term "gothic metal" is an oxymoron. Marilyn Manson used a (pseudo)Gothic image to market his particular brand of metal. Knowing (probably) that actual Gothic Music (or even Gothic Rock) could not be marketed to angsty teens. Which, in turn, inspired a generation of artists (misinformed or otherwise) to play metal, all the while claiming to be Gothic. The influx of metalhead lunchbox-toting wannabe Goths showing up at Goth clubs disgusted club regulars who started gravitating to EBM, Industrial and Synthpop so as to not be identified with the new "kinder bats" or "mansonites" who refused to stop showing up and/or calling themselves "Goth". Abaonding ship, if you will. As many older club patrons were now into EBM, other club patrons who couldn't stand EBM stopped going out. So the 2 groups represented in the club scenes were now EBM fans and metal fans who didn't get that they were never Goth in the first place. Actual Gothic music slipped deeper into the underground in some scenes, while in others it completely died out. The surge of interest in Death Rock and Horror Punk as a backlash against EBM and Industrial in many scenes continued to help divert attention from Gothic music and served to solidify many people's opinions that there was never any such thing as Gothic Music, only "Gothic Rock". Nothing could be further from the truth. The thing about many forms of "underground" music is that it simply is not accessable to weekend warriors. Goth has become a fashion statement to many who really don't know anything about it's history and, because of this, do not share a psychological ancestory with the members of said culture. Scene elders see no reason to educate them as they are likely just waiting for them to lose interest and go away. What this all boils down to is, Goth and metal are nothing alike. Goths and metalheads generally do not like each other and their prefered music sounds nothing alike. Thusly, there is no such thing as "gothic metal". Playing metal while wearing black and/or makeup does not make a band "Gothic" any more than Willie Nelson playing country while wearing Fubu would make him "gangsta rap". About the only thing Goths and metalheads can agree on is they generally both hate emo and despise being confused for emo fans.


 * In hindsight, that is what probally should of been done in the first place. Ley Shade 13:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Who turned this into a disambiguation? There was a CONSENSUS to make it a redirect, and suddenly a few weeks later it becomes a disambiguation? TheDarknessVisible 17:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Deletion
I deleted the second part of the disambiguation, because a Goth can prefer any kind of music, for example:


 * Aggrotech
 * Coldwave
 * Dark electro
 * Darkwave
 * Electro-Industrial
 * Electronic Body Music
 * Ethereal Wave
 * Futurepop
 * Heavy Metal
 * Industrial music
 * Neo-classical music
 * New Wave
 * Post punk
 * Psychobilly
 * Punk rock
 * Techno
 * Trance
 * Forms of medieval music
 * Some forms of classical music
 * Some forms of Opera

The second reason is: These kinds of music aren't Gothic music styles. --~Menorrhea 17:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Gothic Metal
Shouldn't we add gothic metal too?It has nothing to do with the gothic subculture but it's related to gothic art, poetry and things like that. 88.87.6.72 07:49, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I am not quite sure the point you are trying to make with the "gothic art, poetry, and 'things like that' ". I went to gothic metal and it says bands like black sabbath which is nothing like goth music. I have to say, someone just threw the goth word onto that but in regards to actual gothic music you can trace a completely separate line and subculture up through metal music and goth music. I am considering that it just be taken out. I suggest you go to the gothic subculture page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.166.222.58 (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2007 (UTC).
 * Well, it uses gothic imagery, just like gothic art, poetry and literature does.

reorganization
Based on what I see, I think this page refers to kinds of music people generally might be found out in "the wild" calling "goth music". Some people call Black Metal 'gothic' as well. Metal has nothing to do with the goth subculture itself according to the goth subculture pages and the gothic metal pages and if this is contentious I can bring in sources, but I assume it is obvious; likewise 2 seperate dictionaries refer to "gothrock" as simply being "goth". And this is how labels and magazines use the term as well.. to this end I've kept ALL the links. nothing is removed. I've added Black Metal. And I've seperated the music styles into 3 sections.

1st is "goth rock" which is what some lay person off the street is probably really looking for since dictionaries report word usage and the dictionary is a reliable secondary source. 2nd is the music associated with the goth scene/subculture as many are taking an "inclusive" rather than "exclusive" approach to the word "goth". 3rd is the heavy metal music. I've indicated its a misnomer to call this "goth music". Metalheads and goths, music magazines etc dont use "goth" to refer to metal. It is basically a misnomer only used by lay people outside of the music scene. However I believe it belongs here because people outside the music scene will use wiki and try to find it by the term 'goth music'.TheDarknessVisible 20:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Some people call Black Metal 'gothic' ... Some people are simply stupid. These people use the term Black Metal for artists such as Cradle of Filth and others. But these bands aren't Black metal and black metal isn't goth.
 * It is basically a misnomer only used by lay people outside of the music scene.... These people are absolutely irrelevant. It's the same shit with bands like Rammstein or Nine Inch Nails. By a handful of stupid kids Rammstein or NIN are categorized as "gothic". By a handful of stupid kids Tokio Hotel or Marilyn Manson are categorized as "gothic"...etc. --~Menorrhea  20:23, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Licensing violation
I've reverted this article to its redirect version for licensing reasons. I've identified material from multiple other articles, including Post-punk, Gothic rock, Punk rock, Dark wave and Deathrock. There are likely more. Wikipedia's material is not in public domain. To reuse it, you must give proper credit. Within Wikipedia itself, this credit is supplied by acknowledging the source of the material in an edit summary, with a direct link to the source article. Without attribution, use of the material constitutes a copyright violation. If you wish to restore the text, please be sure to credit each and every article used. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 10:45, 22 October 2009 (UTC)