Talk:Gothic rock/Archive 2

Siouxsie, Joy Division, The Cure
"Despite their legacy as progenitors of gothic rock, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Joy Division, and The Cure chiefly self-identified as punk acts at the time."

These people never chiefly "self identified" as punk. They were punk as far as they knew at the time. As time moves on ....even after a few years, people start making comparisons and labels! I find it bizarre that people now lump Joy division into Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.248.134.183 (talk) 08:24, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Interpol, She Wants Revenge
I think this groups should be added to the third generation section. They're very popular, and pretty goth. I also think brief note should be made of goth's influence on screamo, anarcho-punk and Björk's Kukl. I tried to add a sentence on anarcho-punk/goth crossover, but somebody removed it. I guess it could be argued that it's not notable. Aryder779 (talk) 16:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Has nothing to do with the third Goth generation. Interpol is a simple Alternative rock group. But feel free to create an "Influence" section (the German WP was faster). --Ada Kataki (talk) 17:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

"She Wants Revenge" has staked it's place as a successful Goth Group (even if it's only Radio play success) and should probably be mentioned. I'm a little suprised AFI aren't mentioned (although I could see arguments against AFI being considered a Goth group but it seems to me if Evanescence is mentioned then AFI can be too).--Dr who1975 (talk) 19:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * She Wants revenge is not a goth group, and neither is Interpol for that matter. They both fall under the 'alternative' banner. There has already been a HUGE discussion about why AFI shouldn't be included.Crescentia (talk) 18:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I disagree with regard to She Wants Revenge... and if I find a proper citation it's going up there.--Dr who1975 (talk) 18:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * It's only an influence. --Ada Kataki (talk) 19:47, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I just did a Google search and I keep seeing 'darkwave', not gothic rock.Crescentia (talk) 23:58, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * There's no need to add Interpol: they are post-punk or indie rock. She Wants Revenge, on the other hand, are better defined as darkwave than gothic rock.(212.183.134.66 (talk) 01:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC))

The first paragraph has enough references....
Jeeze that's a lot of refereences for three bands.....does there have to be THAT many?Crescentia (talk) 03:14, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The reason for tha t is beacause it must be proven that this are very notealbe bands within the genre, and the articles can used mulipule times. No such thing as to many sources. Dude101.2 (talk) 05:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No, it makes it look sloppy.Crescentia (talk) 18:51, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Gothic rock has more influences than just post punk....
So please stop deleting them and just leaving post punk....thanks.Crescentia (talk) 03:15, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Influences=/=origins. If you beliex=ve that goth rock has influences from other genres, you may add it in the body of the article, provided you have a source to back you up. As for origins, if you disagree with the current listing, change it. Just make sure you can back it up with a reliable source. Dude101.2 (talk) 04:59, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have to have a reliable source to add to the origin listing. Is there a footnote to the post-punk listing there? No. I just looked on the punk music page and none of the styles of music listed under origins is footnoted. I think it is ridiculous to have to flippin' prove every single origin, since different gothic rock bands had/have different influences. You can't just come into this article and dictate what can and can't be done, ESPECIALLY if it isn't done on similar pages.Crescentia (talk) 20:04, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Dark Wave??
How come there is no mention of "Dark Wave".

The original Gothic rock was a side to punk rock which was also originallly called "positive Punk" and was basically punk with a gothic horror theme. popularised by David Vanian of the Damned who took his surname from Transylvanian.

As Post-Punk came the genre "New-Wave" arose which was influences of punk rock being waterred down with other or more commercial musics. The gothic side to post-punk new wave was called Dark Wave. Dark Wave like New Wave also later introduced electronic sounds. There is even electro-dark wave which is electro / electronic music with a dark wave feel.

Metalosaurus (talk) 20:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * New Wave isn't a genre. It's an umbrella term. There're guitar bands and there're electronic bands. And they all were called New Wave. In many countries, New Wave was used as a synonym for Post-Punk. In Europe, Sisters, Joy Division, Cure and Siouxsie were also called New Wave, not Goth. In the 1980s, Goth wasn't a frequently used term.
 * Dark Wave is an umbrella term from Europe. In my opinion, it's a term from Germany, coined in the mid-/late 80s. German folks used that term to describe early Gothic groups (Siouxsie, Sisters etc.), dark Synthpop bands (Psyche, Depeche Mode) or french Cold Wave bands (Norma Loy, Opera Multi Steel etc.). It was all one movement. There was no difference between Goths and Dark Waver, Dark Waver and Depeche Mode fans etc.
 * Btw: Your "electro-dark wave" is called electro-wave in Germany. --Ada Kataki (talk) 13:51, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok. That makes sense. I just remember the groups like you mentioned being post-punk dark wave (ok it was just just an unbrella term). I remember people at the time saying real gothic rock was meant to be punk rock. What you've commented falls in-line as I remember it other than I remember punks feeling strongly that the new wave groups mentioned weren't true gothic rock but post-punk. The electro-dark wave is a new thing for me. I've just seen it being used on sites like youtube. I mentioned it as it shows people are still aware of the term. Metalosaurus (talk) 08:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Gothic Metal a derivative form of Gothic Rock??? Since when???
Please, explain me how come Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Gothic Rock? Gothic Metal came from British Death/Doom scene, there's no connection with Gothic Rock whatsoever and please don't come with the argument that some bands were inspired by Gothic Rock influences 'cause that's a bunch of crap. Gothic Metal started with a Death/Doom band, Paradise Lost, that added some specific elements to it and their album "Gothic" named the genre Gothic Metal. No Gothic Rock, no Gothic music, no Gothic subculture, it's all about Death/Doom, period. Not to mention that the sound of both genres is 100% distinct. I'm asking please to delete that to avoid misunderstandings, if not, then explain me why. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:28, 28 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I just want to say that many Gothic Metal bands have been influenced by gothic rock. My Dying Bride, Moonspell, Tristania, Type O Negative and Tiamat all have heavy goth rock and darkwave infuences, especially from bands like Sisters of Mercy. Black No 1 by Type O Negative, Brighter Than The Sun by Tiamat, Angellore by Tristania, Vampiria by Moonspell.. all great gothic metal songs, with easy to notice gothic rock influence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.64.237 (talk) 09:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * @ImaginaryVoncroy: Read the early interviews of Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride etc. They're influenced by Sisters, Nephilim and Dead Can Dance. --Ada Kataki (talk) 11:17, 30 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Btw: A little comparison:


 * Fields of the Nephilim - Sumerland, 1990
 * Paradise Lost - As I Die, 1992


 * The face close-ups in the first video (Carl McCoy) are copied (by Nick Holmes). ;-) --Ada Kataki (talk) 11:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC


 * Thank you so much for your replies, I do respect them, but I absotuletly disagree with them. You won't particulary convince me that Gothic Rock was a major influence of Gothic Metal, because to be honest both genres sound nothing alike to me. Gothic Metal bands are influenced by many genres of music, yet that doesn't mean the genre itself is a derivative form of them all. For example, many Gothic Metal bands were influenced by Black Metal music and that doesn't mean Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Black Metal, so why would it be different for Gothic Rock?


 * Gothic Metal is only a derivative form of Death/Doom, because it was started by a Death/Doom band, not by a Gothic Rock one. What is written in this page is a very misleading statement if you ask me. None of the bands that started Gothic Metal, or very few, began as Gothic Rock or even played that genre of music. Most of them started as Doom Metal related music, Death/Doom in particular. The Gothic Metal bands you mentioned - My Dying Bride, Tristania, Type O Negative, Tiamat and Paradise Lost - never played Gothic Rock, they were all Doom Metal-related bands in the beginning of their careers, so how can you affirm that Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Gothic Rock? No band, I mean, NOT A SINGLE ONE of those you mentioned are even Gothic Rock-related and I'm shocked someone actually said they have "heavy goth rock and darkwave infuences", because it was always very well established all those bands belonged to Doom Metal scene, more particulary in the subgenres of Death/Doom and Gothic/Doom. Being influenced by one genre and actually playing it are two total different things. Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Death/Doom with several influences from other genres of music, Gothic Rock being JUST one of them.


 * And I actually don't believe that the Gothic Rock community actually accepts the statement that Gothic Metal is a derivative form or it's in any way directly connected with the genre. But hey this is what I think, if anything of what I said made sense, you will agree with me, if not, then put a citation that confirms that Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Gothic Rock and that's it, because I do believe that is a very controversial statement. I still believe Heavy Metal and Gothic Rock are two total different perceptions of making and understanding music, I would never see a crossover of them happening and for me Gothic Metal is not that crossover anyway. But this is just my opinion. Thank you for your constructive replies. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:20, 31 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll have to agree with ImaginaryVoncroy on this one. If Gothic rock influenced Gothic metal at all it was just in the style of dress, not the music. Ash Loomis (talk) 04:20, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * 1.) Doom/Death integrated Gothic elements (Paradise Lost, My Dying Bride, Tiamat)
 * 2.) Gothic integrated Metal elements (The Nefilim, Dreadful Shadows, Love Like Blood, Secret Discovery)


 * Like it or not, Gothic metal is a fusion genre. --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not a question to like it or not, I'm in peace with my opinion and I'm sure this is shared by most of Gothic Rock fans, if anything, Gothic Metal fans are the ones that want desperately to be related to Gothic music. Saying Gothic Metal is a fusion genre between Heavy Metal and Gothic Rock makes no sense whatsoever. Just because there are some Gothic Rock bands that have integrated Heavy Metal elements or few Death/Doom bands that were influenced by Gothic Rock music, that doesn't mean Gothic Metal is a crossover between the two, it's not like: Heavy Metal + Gothic Rock = Gothic Metal. People are misleading the word "Gothic" in the two genres and making them somehow directly related. FACT is Gothic Metal is a derivative form of Death/Doom Metal and Doom music, it did not came from Gothic Rock. Being inluenced by one genre and actually coming from it are two total different things and Gothic Rock was merely ONE of the influences for Gothic Metal.


 * Many Gothic Metal bands have integrated Black Metal and Symphonic-stuff elements and that also doesn't mean Gothic Metal is a fusion genre between those and Doom music, why then affirming Gothic Metal is magically a fusion between Heavy Metal and Gothic Rock? Just wondering, you don't need to answer, I'm not even talking about heavier Gothic Rock bands, that's another all different story. You're confusing bands that came from Doom scene with heavier Gothic Rock ones, when they don't sound anything alike at all, nor they play the same elements, nor they share the same ORIGINS. As someone said before: influences=/=origins, but those bands don't even share the same influences for that matter. You're mixing oranges with apples and considering all them Gothic Metal, when that genre of music is ONLY directly related to Doom music, Death/Doom or Gothic/Doom. Unless you consider Gothic Metal and heavier Gothic Rock the same genre of music (which I veemently disagree), I suggest you, Ada, to include a reliable source that confirms that statement.


 * And, sorry, I just want to make one more point. I've been reading the discussion archive pages of Gothic Rock, Goth Subculture and Gothic Fashion and they all decided that Gothic Metal IS NOT a Gothic Rock subgenre, NEITHER a part of Goth subculture, NOR Gothic Metal bands are related to Gothic Rock scene, so why do you all keep coming with the same arguments over and over again? I request Gothic Metal to be removed from this page as a derivative form or fusion genre of Gothic Rock, because it has always been decided before it is simply NOT. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 16:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I personally have nothing against Gothic Metal, I just don't think it's accurate to list it as a fusion genre or a related genre. Gothic metal is not my favorite genre, but there are Gothic metal bands that I enjoy. But that's beside the point. I think you're showing abit of a double standard here Ada. Remember back when I thought it would be a good idea to add Dub to stylistic origins because Bauhaus and Joy Division were influenced by it? Then you came back and said that just because two goth bands (even if it was the ones who created the style) were influenced by Dub it doesn't mean Dub influenced the genre as a whole. If that reasoning applies to Dub and Gothic rock, then it also must apply to Gothic rock and Gothic metal. Ash Loomis (talk) 19:09, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Ash Loomis, I also don't have anything against Gothic Metal. I am Doom Metal and Gothic Rock fan. It is more than well established in Doom Metal community that Gothic Metal came from it, not from Gothic Rock, even though some bands may suggest they were influenced by it. Ada is mixing Gothic Metal and heavier Gothic Rock bands that have nothing to do with each other, because primarily Gothic Metal is a Doom-related genre of music. As I wrote in my last paragrah, it has always been defended in this page and other related ones (Goth Subculture and Gothic Fashion) that Gothic Metal has nothing to do with Gothic Rock, so I request Gothic Metal to be removed from the fusion genre list, as it has always been done before. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 19:21, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * For those who used Allmusic.com as source, I guess you'll have to include Tristania and many more Gothic Metal bands in the wikipedia Gothic Rock bandlist, since they are all classified as such in that site. If that site is considered reliable here, then I guess all that discussion about Gothic Metal bands being included in list of Gothic Rock bands will start again, because anyone can use Allmusic.com as source. Unless you genuinely consider Within Temptation Gothic Rock, I'd say that site is written by someone who has a total lack of musical knowledge when it comes to Gothic Rock, and Gothic Metal for that matter - there's not a single mention to Death/Doom scene whatsoever, not even Paradise Lost who are credited for starting the genre of Gothic Metal, so for me this is not even close to be a reliable source, but I'm just one person who disagrees. Thank you very much for your time. ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:12, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've quite often seen allmusic used as a be-all end-all authoritative source for genres, especially in disputes on whether or not a band can be classified as emo, and is usually aggressively upheld in those situations. I assumed from experience in that, that it was a trusted source. Zazaban (talk) 22:44, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hi Zaraban, thank you for your contribution, I am clueless about Emo scene I have to confess, but when it comes to Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal scene, Allmusic.com is not a reliable source at all for me. You will find millions of sources online that will say Gothic Metal is a Gothic Rock subgenre, nowadays that became just a stereotype, but anyone who knows Gothic Rock and Gothic Metal scene knows that is 100% false. Gothic Metal came from Doom music and it's not a fusion between Heavy Metal and Gothic Rock at all, just some Gothic Metal bands happened to be influenced by Gothic Rock - that's all. If by Sunday, there's not a reliable source, I will delete Gothic Metal from fusion genres - this has been done before when someone added Gothic Metal in this page, it was already decided that Gothic Metal is not a subgenre or a fusion of Gothic Rock. I don't know why it sould be different now or why it's so hard to accept that. "Like it or not". ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 15:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Recent changes
Two editors have made many changes to this page, most of which I agree with and applaud. I would very much like to participate in improving this page. However, for some reason, references I have supplied from Jennifer Park's contribution to Valerie Steele's recent book have been deleted twice. I don't understand why this is, as the citation specifies the page number and the bibliography makes the source clear. I have reverted these changes. Also, one editor has removed some redundant citations as "unnecessary". I disagree with this, because this topic is controversial, and for this reason I feel that in some cases if more than one source can be found to endorse a claim, both sources should be indicated. It's necessary for us to work out exactly which bands are considered most important and pivotal to the style. Reynolds' Rip It Up and Start It Again is flawed, but helpful, and Park's article, which I've been citing from, is in my opinion the best source for this material. With cooperation, I think we can eventually work this page up to a well-sourced, well-written, and reasonably comprehensive resource. Aryder779 (talk) 17:15, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The reason I removed them is because it looks like they're just sourcing that bands exist, which we don't need to source. WesleyDodds (talk) 17:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it also establishes that they are notable bands in the lineage of Gothic rock, not just that they happen to exist. I realize that this shouldn't just be a list of bands and we should construct some kind of narrative and I'm glad to participate in that, but in the mean time we need an initial skeleton, and the source is significant in establishing which bands were prominent in the movement at which time. Aryder779 (talk) 19:39, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's better to put things into context. When adding cites, quote what the book says about the artist; that makes the citation more useful to readers. Keep in mind we won't be able to list every single goth band. For examples, we're using Grunge music and Britpop as templates for revamping this article. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Outline
I'm glad this has been chosen as collaborative effort by the alternative project. Some things to keep in mind: Jennifer Park, in her long article in Valerie Steele's Gothic: Dark Glamour, indicates that Gothic rock's pre-history is established by the Velvet Underground, David Bowie, Iggy Pop, and the Sex Pistols (p. 118-125). She then indicates the beginnings of Gothic rock in the post-punk groups Joy Division, Siouxsie and the Banshees, the Cure, Bauhaus, and the Birthday Party (p. 125-144). She treats the Sisters of Mercy, the March Violets, the Danse Society, Southern Death Cult, and Sex Gang Children as "archetypal gothic rock" (p. 144-150). Under the heading "Goth's disciples," she discusses Specimen and Alien Sex Fiend (p. 151-155). She also mentions the Smiths, the Cocteau Twins, Echo and the Bunnymen, and the Jesus and Mary Chain as "non-gothic rock bands that can often be heard on many a goth night." (p. 155). I think this is a good blueprint for the priorities this page should cleave towards. As I recall, Reynolds describes Joy Division and Siouxsie and the Banshees as precursors, and makes Bauhaus, the Birthday Party, the Sisters of Mercy, and the Southern Death Cult the main goth groups. Aryder779 (talk) 20:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, James Hannaham's article "Bela Lugosi's Dead and I Don't Feel So Good Either: Goth and the Glorification of Suffering in Rock Music," in the anthology Gothic: Transmutations of Horror in Late 20th Century Art, describes Screamin' Jay Hawkins and Alice Cooper as precursors (p. 117-116 - the page numbers go backwards in this book), and the Cure, Siouxsie and the Banshees, New Order, Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance, New Order, and Specimen as post-punk goth groups (p. 114-113). Hannaham also discusses Morrissey and Joy Division (p. 96-92).
 * I hope this information is helpful. Aryder779 (talk) 20:32, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

The article wasn't bad in the past. But the whole pre-history was deleted months ago. Once, the English article was a model for the German article. But today, the English article is only a miserable remnant. --Ada Kataki (talk) 06:13, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I just moved things around a bit. It makes sense to me to make the first section of the page deal with roots and influences, then have a section on the post-punk groups ('77-'82), then a third section on Sisters of Mercy, the Batcave groups, and afterwards. I took a stab at writing this third section. I'm waiting for Wesley Dodds to continue filling out the second section, because I don't want to start writing stuff if he's already got a plan. At this stage, anyone can feel free to rearrange the way I've presented things. Aryder779 (talk) 02:12, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Killing Joke and Public Image Ltd.
The article presently mentions Killing Joke and PiL as influential. Do we have any sources that back this statement up? I mean, some material by those two groups definitely seems pretty Goth to me, but this isn't the place for original research, so if there's no evidence to support their prominence in the style, they should be removed from the article. Aryder779 (talk) 00:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Dark wave
Incidentally, Peter Jandreus, in The Encyclopedia of Swedish Punk 1977-1987, Stockholm: Premium Publishing, 2008, p. 11, defines Joy Division and their contemporaries as "darkwave", with "Gothic rock" proper beginning with the Sisters of Mercy. I think dark wave is a more European term. I'm not sure if its usage should be reflected on this page. Aryder779 (talk) 00:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's a German term, i think. First i heard the term in the 1980s (e.g. 1987/88 in connection to Joy Division, Gothrock and sinister synthie music). In fact, we never called the movement Gothic culture, but Dark Wave scene, a counterpart to the cheerful New Wave movement. And a follower of the music was called Waver. In early years, we never used the term Gothrock, but Wave. It was Wave music, and the subgenres were called Cold Wave, Electro Wave, Ethereal Wave... blah blah. In the early 90s, i read the term Gothic Wave in a music magazine. *rofl* The term was used to describe Gothic rock as a part of the Wave movement.
 * There is not really a big difference between The Cure, Siouxsie, Cocteau and the early Sisters of Mercy. Because they all used the same guitar sounds. The difference between the first three bands and the later Sisters of Mercy is simply a second guitar. A second guitar was used by the Sisters (in the mid-1980s/early 1990s) and the Fields of the Nephilim (in the late 1980s). The use of a second guitar and the influence of 1970s Hard rock creates that fucking Heavy rock feeling of the Sisters. --Ada Kataki (talk) 11:34, 10 January 2009 (UTC)


 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=xdXUDqlDkEM
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=HY7wuV_C1oI
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=Az5DQrUp7P4
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=lF327JB0jHs
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ar1xKTWhQlE
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=w7RWb-8Izv0
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=3frcQwZt324
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=7wXI4YjN650
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=yMMHf2mJV1g
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=oSc91Z8QDc0
 * http://youtube.com/watch?v=B88BhyeWJVI

Darkwave isn't a widely-accepted term in discussion of music genres, because it's a broad term that overlapswith post-punk, goth, dream pop, and dark synthpop bands like Depeche Mode. It seems to be most prominently used in European countries, while English-speaking countries tend to describe these bands as post-punk, goth, etc. WesleyDodds (talk) 17:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

UK Decay
"In February 1981, Abbo from UK Decay used the term gothic to describe the style of bands such as Danse Society and Play Dead." Do we have a source for this statement? There are many other instances of bands being described as gothic. I'm going to cut the sentence. Aryder779 (talk) 01:43, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * February 1981? I'm sure, this is the Sound article The face of Punk Gothique. --Ada Kataki (talk) 04:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A transcript of this article is available here: We can use some of this information in the article. It doesn't support the sentence about Abbo using the term to describe Danse Society, though. Aryder779 (talk) 22:00, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance
The page presently reports that "Cocteau Twins and Dead Can Dance also contributed to Gothic rock with a distinctively ethereal style, borrowing from ambient music." Hannaham mentions the two groups, but without any details (doesn't provide the information about ethereal style or ambient influence). Park indicates that Cocteau Twins are a non-goth rock group that goths happen to like (see above). Should this sentence be deleted? Are Cocteau Twins generally considered gothic rock, or rather "ethereal wave" or something else? Aryder779 (talk) 01:50, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Cocteau Twins started as a Goth group in 1982. "Garlands" is pure Goth. In 1983, they created a more ethereal Goth/Wave style on "Head over Heels". In 1986 the music changed to a more poppy/shoegazer sound. IMO "Victorialand" is, what the music press calls "Dreampop". This album shows no audible connection to Goth or Dark Wave anymore. Btw: The Cocteau Twins has been mentioned in Dave Thompsons book "The dark Reign of Gothic rock" and in a short Goth history of Mick Mercer in 1995. --Ada Kataki (talk) 04:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Just delete it if those particular pages cited don't support the article text. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Resource
I just found this Stylus magazine article referenced on the deathrock page: A very helpful and complete source; information from this should be integrated into the article. Aryder779 (talk) 02:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
 * We really can't use it, since no sources are listed for the article. We can find the same info in other more reliable sources. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's a secondary source, which is the bread and butter of Wikipedia: "they rely for their facts and opinions on primary sources, often to make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. [...] Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from secondary sources." It's a reliable and unpublished, albeit online, source, so I don't see what possible problem could arise in citing it. Aryder779 (talk) 03:26, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You have to consider what are better sources. The article doesn't state where any of this information comes from; most pieces on Stylus are opinion pieces anyway. In contrast, the books by Simon Reynolds and Mick Mercer are drawn from interviews and research of secondary sources like old interviews and reviews. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:29, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I haven't read Mercer's work yet (though I'm going to, I have a request in at my library), but I do want to suggest some caution with Reynolds, in that he doesn't really like Gothic rock and is at some distance from the scene. Rip It Up and Start It Again explicitly advocates the '78-'84 generation of post-punk, and he's quite critical of Bauhaus and the Cult and terse in his discussion of Goth. Aryder779 (talk) 03:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I prefer to rely on the Reynolds book because it's one of the few studies of post-punk and goth that relies on clearly-delineated research and has a critical distance from the goth subculture. And despite some of the humorous stabs he takes at goth (admit it, the Cult jokes were funny), he doesn't outright hate it; for example if you re-read it he actually gives praise to Bauhaus, the Banshees, Birthday Party, and others. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Speaking of which, we want to not rely too much on sources that come directly from the goth subculture, for objectivity reasons. If you think goth is fucking great and it's your life it's quite understandably hard to write objectively about it. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:42, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, to be clear, I like Reynolds and think he's a good writer. The Sex Revolts and Blissed Out are both great, and I read his blog pretty regularly. With that said, Rip It Up and Start Again is openly tendentious, and has a very brief treatment of the scene. I know he doesn't "outright hate it", but that's not the point -- he goes out of his way to say that Bauhaus are pretty much just rehashing Bowie and that the Cult are harbingers of the more conservative '80s dominance of glam metal. He's not, in fact, "objective," and he says so in the foreword of the book. More importantly for this page, he really doesn't go into much depth. Not to sound like a broken record, but I think Park's article in Valerie Steele's book is much better, and like Reynolds, she cites her sources. I understand that we don't want everything to come from boosters of the goth scene, but we have to keep in mind that this is a controversial topic. Aryder779 (talk)


 * In regards to Bauhaus, he's trying to convey what critics actually said about them at the time. I have the original NME and Melody Maker pieces on them, and holy shit, was the music press indignant over what they perceived as Bowie rip-offs. They actually set up interviews specifically designed to bait the band. The Cult also received plenty of write-ups about their newfound Zeppelin fetish, although from what I remember those were more positive. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Capitalization
This is one thing I've occasionally wondered, but never settled in my mind: do we capitalize the G in gothic rock? The Reynolds book does, and so do a number of old articles I have, but I don't think it's very consistent. WesleyDodds (talk) 04:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Jennifer Park doesn't capitalize the term in her article, but James Hannaham does. So it doesn't appear to be consistent, and maybe doesn't matter that much. I'm not sure if there's a style guide to which we can appeal on the matter. Aryder779 (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is like New Wave in that capitals are necessary. Gothic rock is a pretty versatile and loose term in several respects. NSR 77  T 21:52, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

It's the wrong way
Meanwhile the article became a shrinkhead. The deletion of unreferenced material is the wrong way. Instead you could lend genre-specific literature from a home library and fill up the article with correct informations and sources. --Ada Kataki (talk) 04:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
 * We are citing the information with "genre-specifc literature", although not necessarily "by goths, for goths", for the reasons I mentioned above. WesleyDodds (talk) 21:17, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I actually like Ada Kataki's definition, but the trouble is that original research is discouraged on Wikipedia, and for sort of a good reason. The trouble is this: Even though I think Ada Kataki's contribution is correct and good, it doesn't have anything backing it up other than his authority as a Wikipedia editor. For that reason, if we allow original research to stand, other people will quickly add information they think is relevant, or delete things they don't think are exactly right. Meaning that there'll be an endless cycle of arguing on this page and edit wars. The only way to improve Wikipedia with any degree of permanence is to eventually eliminate all original research and back everything up with citations. That means that we'll be reliant on published sources, often journalists, who sometimes say stupid or misinformed or biased things, which is why we need to be careful about controversial claims and weigh sources against each other according to the guidelines set forth by WP:RELIABLE. Aryder779 (talk) 00:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Aryder. Too much is being deleted. Deletion, unless it is completely useless information, does not solve the problem. NSR 77  T 21:51, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Middle Ages?
The page presently reports that "In addition to the imagery and atmosphere of the Middle Ages, gothic rock creates a dark atmosphere by drawing influence from the drones utilised by protopunk group The Velvet Underground, and many goth singers are influenced by the "deep and dramatic" vocal timbre of David Bowie, albeit singing at even lower pitches." This is pretty good, although it puts three different things in one sentence, so I think the sentence should be broken up for flow. Also, "drone" should be linked to drone music. The only part I find a bit controversial -- imagery and atmosphere of the Middle Ages? I guess the cited source says this, but gothic rock groups borrow from a lot of different periods, especially Romanticism, Symbolism, and modernism. The Birthday Party, for example, have a southern Gothic feel. So I submit that this first clause should be deleted, because its misleading, and there's not a consensus of sources. Aryder779 (talk) 18:12, 15 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Let me state my position again. Apparently Katherine Charlton asserts, in Rock Music Styles, that gothic rock has something to do with "the imagery and atmosphere of the Middle Ages", though this is paraphrased in the article rather than cited directly. This is vague at best, and probably false. I don't believe that any of the other sources (Reynolds, Mercer, Park, Allmusic, etc.) make this claim. Also, I realize that primary source research is generally discouraged, but "a primary source may be used only to make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is verifiable by a reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge." Any glance at the primary sources do not support any reference to the imagery of the Middle Ages. For example -- "Bela Lugosi's Dead". Obviously no elements from the Middle Ages are present in this song; it evokes the Victorian Gothic period of Dracula and Universal Horror cinema. Gothic rock does draw on the past, but mainly from the Romantic, Symbolist, Decadent, and modern periods. For example, the name Bauhaus indicates a modernist intent. No prominent gothic rock group has made reference to, say, Charlemagne, or the Book of Kells, or the Crusades, or the Romance of the Rose, or Medieval music or anything directly related to the Middle Ages. For this reason, I feel strongly that this clause should be deleted. Aryder779 (talk) 18:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Mercer's Goth canon
I just read Mercer's book Gothic Rock, and while it's not very good, it creates some controversy for this page. Mercer argues that Joy Division, Siouxsie, Birthday Party, and The Cure are not Gothic rock groups. He considers the canon to be The Cult, The Sisters of Mercy, The Mission UK, All About Eve, and Fields of the Nephilim. I think this page needs to find a way of better addressing The Birthday Party; Reynolds and Park describe them as canonically Goth. There are primary sources that indicate that they were hugely influential on the scene, though as I mentioned Mercer thinks they're not quite Goth. We also need to find some way of addressing deathrock on this page. Aryder779 (talk) 00:50, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Mr. Mercer also published a Goth history in a German Independent music magazine. It seems that he doesn't like groups that achieved commercial success. In his book Gothic Rock Black Book (1988) he described Siouxsie as a Goth queen. In the later Goth history, he called the Banshees a simple Pop band ("not a Goth band, never a Goth band."). Mercer is a little bit stupid, but a handful of interviews and statements are Ok. Try the book of Dave Thompson. IMO it is the best and most detailed book concerning Goth rock. --Ada Kataki (talk) 12:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * I take it you're referring to The Dark Reign of Gothic Rock. I'll see if I can get it through interlibrary loan. Aryder779 (talk) 19:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Load of Garbage
I think that this page is utter garbage. I don't really have much to contribute but that. Goth rock as it emerged in the 90s had hardly any resemblence to punk, and was a subset of heavy metal alongside thrash metal, long before death and nu metal. I think what the cure and others like them was doing was not what people know as goth rock at all, and any attempt to lump them all together in the same genre is revisionist history and just completely misinforms anyone who doesn't know any better. To me cure were just shoegazers, and any group who was combining the sound of pop music and depression pretty much has to go there. This isn't to step on anyone's feelings, I just think that's accurate.

What's truly distinctive about goth music is the scene that became associated with it in the 90s that simply did not exist before. It also became a bonified subculture instead of isolated pockets of interest. Eventually goth evolved (not a compliment just noting origin) into the more pop-inspired but still harder rock genre of emo music. And yes emo is another genre distorted by revisionist history with attempts to link it back to bygone eras where it simply doesn't belong.

I hope someone comes along and just revises this whole thing. In case you want a starting point, bloody kisses and beautiful people. Before that there was no goth rock subculture, if you think there was then your standards for using that word are just too low. Put pre 90s goth (as you call it) someplace else, it's just not the same thing, not inspired by or evolved from. Music history isn't a mr. potato head to dissasemble and reassemble as we like, nor impose our own visions upon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.0.196.52 (talk) 17:16, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You're thinking of gothic metal. Different thing. Zazaban (talk) 07:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Um....you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.68.53.221.128 (talk) 17:08, 7 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Aren't you in fact "assembling" the history as you see fit? Beach drifter (talk) 19:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Marble Index
I see there is at least a mention of Nico as an influence on Goth rock, but it seems worth noting that 1969's Marble Index in particular can be seen as a starting point. AMG's Ritchie Unterbeberger says of it: "The quirky, orchestrated folk-rock of Nico's 1968 debut album, Chelsea Girl, in no way prepared listeners for the stark, almost avant-garde flavor of her 1969 follow-up, The Marble Index. The chanteuse presented an uncompromisingly bleak, gothic soundscape on her second album. Dominated by spare harmonium and Nico's deep, brooding vocals, this album unveiled her singularly morose songwriting (her first record featured none of her compositions). Owing more to European classical and folk music than rock, it found little favor with 1969 audiences. But like the work of the Velvet Underground, it proved to be quite influential in the long run on a future generation of black-clad goth rockers." Perhaps due to Nico's German heritage and the fact that the sound and songs remain consistant, it more than the Velvets (with notable exceptions such as Venus in Furs but not a whole album, the Velvets covered a lot more ground), Stooges or especially Sex Pistols, sounds to my ears like the beginning of goth music (unless you're including 13th century Gregorian Chant). An argument against it might be that it doesn't exactly rock (also unlike the Velvets), but in this case this isn't a detriment; instead, the lack of a drummer adds to the Gothic effect throughout. If there is an earlier full album that can be said to be a direct influence on the sound of these bands I'd like to hear it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Molybdenumtop (talk • contribs) 06:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I've attempted to make note of this in the article. Thanks for the suggestion. Aryder779 (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

"Teutonic vocals"
The article quotes Simon Reynolds as attributing "vocals that were either near operatic and Teutonic" to Gothic rock. What does "Teutonic" vocals mean? Surely he doesn't mean it's sung in German. I think he's referring to Nico's influence on the genre, or perhaps a Wagnerian quality, but this isn't helpful for an encyclopedia article. For this reason, I think this clause should be redacted from the quote and replaced with an ellipses. Unless someone can think of something to which we can link the modifier, so it's not confusing to readers. Aryder779 (talk) 19:12, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


 * He means dismal and cold, stiff and imperative. That's Teutonic and typical Deutsch. German language is an aggressive language. --Chontamenti (talk) 10:55, 9 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Um ... this seems like a stereotype to me. I think many Germans would be offended by the idea that their language is inherently aggressive. I know English speakers have those associations, but German can sound quite beautiful (read some Hölderlin, Novalis, or Celan). If he means "dismal, cold, stiff, and imperative", there's a better way to put that then Teutonic or "typical Deutsch". According to the Teutonic disambiguation page, the term is a dated name for the Germanic languages. And furthermore, other than German dark wave and Neue Deutsche Welle groups who actually are German, do gothic rock groups really borrow from the cadences, pronunciation, or consonant shifts of Germanic languages? I sort of doubt it, and Reynolds's colorful adjective certainly doesn't prove it. Aryder779 (talk) 16:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Theatre of Hate
This article incorrectly implies that Theatre of Hate emerged into the scene in 1983. The band was formed in 1980 and broke up in late 1982. They enjoyed the height of their popularity in 1981-1982, and should probably be mentioned alongside Bauhaus, The Cure, Joy Division, and Siouxsie as forerunners of the movement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.171.226.208 (talk) 06:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The group has no Wikipedia page and seems to have very few sources covering it. It was included in the "mid-80s" section because that's how Reynolds characterizes them in his post-punk group. If you have good sources for the group, please write a page from them and then mention them in the appropriate space here. Aryder779 (talk) 16:28, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Grunge
This sentence, at the end of the lead, has never seemed right to me: "Following the immense popularity of Grunge in the United States, gothic rock slowly faded from the mainstream and has since then remained a largely underground entity." - Dave Thompson: ''Schattenwelt. Helden und Legenden des Gothic Rock''. Hannibal, Höfen 2004, ISBN 3-85445-236-5, p. 316.

The reference is to a German translation of a book, so I can't check the source. The real issues are these: First, the article isn't really about the United States at all anyway. Almost the entire Gothic rock article is about British groups, and a few Europeans; there's only a brief mention of the U.S., with regard to deathrock. American goth is covered there. So the real concern is the British music scene, which I think was preoccupied with Britpop rather than grunge. For another thing, Gothic rock as such was always pretty much an underground entity. Comparing Nirvana to the Mission UK or whatever is basically apples and oranges, commercially speaking. For another thing, the sources basically indicate that the heyday of Gothic rock was about '83-'85. I can think of a number of developments that encroached on Gothic rock's territory much more than grunge -- hard rock à la The Cult, shoegazing, and especially industrial metal, for example. Groups like the Smashing Pumpkins, Jane's Addiction, and Nine Inch Nails were very popular in the early '90s, the same period as grunge, and certainly drew on Goth and occupied its cultural space to a much, much greater degree than Pearl Jam, et. al. Aryder779 (talk) 16:25, 25 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The Sex Pistols were an undeniable influence. I believe they`re what intially motived Siouxie and the Banshees, the Cure, and Joy Division to start bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ash Loomis (talk • contribs) 05:31, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Should gothic music redirect here?
OMG, WHY DO YOU KEEP SAYING THAT METAL IS NOT GOTH, YOU'RE JUST FANATICS, THE OLDIER BANDS HAD SEX, DRUGS, AND THINGS LIKE THAT IN THEIR MUSIC, BUT GOTHIC METAL DO NOTHAVE THAT KIND OOF THEMS, TODAY'S GOTHIC METAL IS COMPLETELY GOTHIC. Gothic music redirects here. Surely there are other genres of goth music than rock, such as gothic metal? --Irrevenant [ talk ] 07:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Gothic Metal is Metal music, not Goth. --Chontamenti (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Gothic metal is really just a misnomer. It came out of metal completely separate of gothic rock and gothic was tacked on because of some sort of perceived,"darkness" which, while really vague and personally to me not making much sense, seems to be similar to how gothic rock initially gained its name (that being the atmosphere the gothic rock subculture entertained). And if one were to look back to what gothic means as of the past 100 or so years, it is from the 19th century gothic writing style. This is where the connection between the atmosphere and the word gothic of today. But the gothic in the front does not really have anything to do with the actual style of play so much as just something that it was called when the style came out and it just stuck. The problem with this is that this combination of perception causes confusion amongst people and hence why people now try to stick the gothic rock genre on non-gothic rock bands by citing critics who caught onto this trend and use words like "gothic" to describe them in reviews when in actuality those critics are calling them gothic sounding from the metal standpoint and not from the gothic rock standpoint. This is because as anything else, most critics specialize in something, so you have metal critics who can talk about metal but when use the word gothic coming from a metal viewpoint it confuses laymen and women (and frankly most of those metal critics are metalheads who don't know about or listen to gothic rock). But just because both have gothic in the front, irrespective of what that actually means, it has nothing to do with the actual "sound". Just a name, and frankly gothic rock had it first but thats okay as the names are already established and its best we just try to push forward and correct any damage that has been done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.60.163 (talk) 20:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Gothic metal has nothing to do with Goth. But yes there are lots of other kinds of Gothic music that are not rock. I don't understand why Gothic music redirects here and not to, say, Ethereal Wave, Darkwave, Deathrock or Neo Classcial. These are also considered kinds of Gothic music. What makes rock so special? Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 02:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ethereal, Neo-Classical, Cold Wave and Goth are kinds of Dark Wave music. Until the mid-/end-90s, the term Goth(ic) was associated with Gothic rock. We never called Neo-classical/Heavenly Voices as "Goth". The term Goth was mostly associated with Mick Mercer's dark rock world. --Chontamenti (talk) 03:01, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Key word here being "was". ;-) 76.181.241.184 (talk) 04:46, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, because in many regions, the Goth and Dark Wave movement is dead. It was primarily a movement of the 80s and 90s. Today, the nighclubs are full of Dance/Techno and Heavy Metal music. Especially in Germany. I really hate that fucking crap. People call it "Goth", but in fact it's Metal and Techno music in Aeolian mode. --Chontamenti (talk) 19:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not dead everywhere. Some clubs still play Goth, Etherereal, Death Rock, and Darkwave and refuse to spin ebm or metal. Come to think of it, I am one of those DJs. 76.181.245.123 (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)


 * EBM (DAF, Nitzer Ebb, F242) isn't the problem, but Hellektro (Combichrist, X-Fusion, SITD etc.). It's only a genre confusion. I don't understand why Goths of today dislike Post-industrial music, such as EBM. Early Goths also listened to Einstürzende Neubauten, Cabaret Voltaire and Skinny Puppy. --Chontamenti (talk) 02:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Because industial and ebm are not as related to Goth as many would have you believe. The industrial and ebm scenes are very similar to disco, in a lots of people's minds (especially ebm), which is what Goth was an answer to/backlash against. I regularly attended Batcave and Slimelight many moons ago and recall some people being into Skinny Puppy, Einstürzende Neubauten, etc. and remember a great many people treating them as poseurs for being pro-industrial. Personally, I could care less what people listen to. But I do think that the moods and aesthetics frequently associated with ebm and industrial to be quite counter to those associated with Goth. Meaning I find that ebm and industrial in the Goth club setting to be something of a mood killer. Just my opinion, mate. Cheers! Very Old School Goth (talk) 02:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The Goth scene now definitely includes many other styles than traditional Gothic rock, as a number of sources will attest. Perhaps "Gothic music" should redirect to the Goth subculture page. Lots of older people think that rivetheads and cybergoths and such aren't goth, but descriptively speaking, many goths follow those styles. Besides, even the goths who stick to the older rock styles often listen to deathrock, which is itself somewhat divorced from the initial UK goth scene. Such are the vagaries of history. Aryder779 (talk) 00:04, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Gothic music is a vague term. It should be deleted. Not every kind of music that is preferred by the Gothic culture is Gothic music.
 * Btw: Remember: In fact, the Death rock movement started in 1982. There was no Death rock album released before 1982. In 1980/1981, Siouxsie and the Banshees, Bauhaus and Lords of the New Church toured in the United States. Since the beginning, Death rock was definitely influenced by UK Goth. Death rock is only the American kind of Goth, strongly influenced by US Hardcore Punk. --Chontamenti (talk) 12:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps a disambiguation page is in order. Listing the genres most frequently associated with Goth and the genres that are (unfortunately) confused with Goth. Cheers!Very Old School Goth (talk) 15:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * IMO it would be only a hardly embattled POV list (see the history of the Gothic music article). The list of Gothic rock bands is hard-fought enough. --Chontamenti (talk) 15:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Wow. Point taken. Looks like Ada Kataki and 76.181.250.255 wiki-martyred themselves over that one. Very Old School Goth (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Gothic Metal is a genre of Heavy Metal, I agree with that; a genre parts Doom, Power and Black Metal. It did not branch off of Gothic Rock and does not share its musical aesthetics. A point I have to bring up is how all this article seems to only focus on Punk Rock's influence(which is undeniable), while totally ignoring the effect early Heavy Metal and Psychedelic had on the gothic rock genre. I shouldn't even need to explain what Gothic Rock has in common with The Doors, The Thirteenth Floor Elevators, Black Widow, Uriah Heep, Black Sabbath and Judas Priest. All these bands had a greater influence than some listed in the article, the most ridiculous example being The Sex Pistols. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.68.218.176 (talk) 23:06, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Of course heavy metal influenced gothic rock bands, but not the genre itself. Siouxsie and the banshees and Bauhaus (Goth Rock Pioneers) are not influenced by heavy metal at all. The Gothic Music is ALWAYS influenced by Post-Punk. Punk rock is not that important in goth music, but that's just my opinion. There are a lot of goth music genres, obviously, but each one is a subengre of Gothic rock or post-punk. Anyways I agree with making a disambiguation or a exclusive page for goth music.|170.51.26.54 (talk) 01:28, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Should Gothic music Redirect here ? I
I don't think so, there's a lot of gothic genres that are not gothic rock such as Darkwave, ethereal wave and death rock.


 * Dark Wave and Death Rock aren't "Gothic" genres. Ethereal is a Goth spin-off.

lol? Deathrock is like an american version of gothic rock, and gothic rock is within the darkwave movement


 * Don't you see the difference? Gothic Rock is a part of Dark Wave, yes, but Dark Wave isn't a part of Gothic Rock. And Death Rock isn't the same like Gothic Rock. Death Rock has a strong Hardcore Punk and Hard Rock influence, bands such as 45 Grave were inspired by Heavy Metal bands (Black Sabbath). Read Gitane Demone's interviews and biographies. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.9.54 (talk) 20:57, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Besides, this is Gothic Music too, from 1390 AD: Maybe a disambugination page is needed? -- megA (talk) 18:39, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Johnny Cash
It seems to me that certain works by Johnny Cash may fit under the label "gothic music" although certainly not his work as a whole. Or would the terms psychobilly and gothabilly be more appropriate? The following article seems to support the notion that Cash may have a place in this article:http://www.slate.com/id/2147591/ BillyJack193 (talk) 04:04, 22 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I have pretty wide musical taste, and I enjoy Johnny Cash as well as many goth bands. Can't say I've heard a gothic rock influence in his stuff though. Are you refering to gothic music as in gothic rock, or to something else? If so, Cash doesn't really have a place here since the article is specifically on the gothic rock genre, not on any music that one might describe as "gothic" in some sense of the word.Ash Loomis (talk) 03:27, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I was speaking more of his influence on gothic rock, rather than its influence on him. I agree, though that it may fit more with other forms of gothic music.BillyJack193 (talk) 03:36, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm sure most gothic rock bands are familiar with Cash's work and appreciate it. He's one of the most influential figures on the development of modern popular music. However, I don't think he would have been a direct influence upon them. Goth grew out of punk and drew on various other experimental genres while Cash played more traditional music. Cash helped shape the rock and roll genre, which eventually led the development of later styles such as goth, but I don't think any of the bands that formed the genre were directly drawing on his work. Do you have any sources where a band that helped develop the style mentions him as a direct influence, or sources that discuss how certain songs influenced the sound? Otherwise, there's no real need to include Cash here. Ash Loomis (talk) 06:41, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Mention of Mislabeling of Marilyn Manson and other Artists
Should we mention artists that have been mislabeled as goth rock such as Marilyn Manson and White Zombie? KMFDM FAN (talk!) 14:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)


 * It's possible that there should be a section for later groups that draw on gothic rock or are associated with it by the press (She Wants Revenge, AFI, Manson, stuff like that). These kinds of additions have been controversial in the past, but with good sources, I think this might be possible in some way. Manson and White Zombie are covered at the industrial metal page; there are obviously some cultural connections between industrial metal and gothic rock, but not really much demonstrable musical relationship. Aryder779 (talk) 03:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The common mistake is from critics specialised in mainstream styles and not the underground. As soon as a band such as Marilyn Manson makes it big time they only see the surface. Without deep analysis they see that "this is dark music" or "this is an occult band" and pigeon-holes them with gothic aesthetics. Marilyn Manson is part of the Industrial Metal movement.

Pre-dating gothic rock, Heavy Metal has always been dark, occult and gloomy, though in a live fast, iron-fist kind of way. Industrial explores the modern age of technology with its undercurrents, through the rust of a concrete jungle nightlife. Gothic lives darkness as solace, finding beauty in the disowned aspects of life(and/or death), and looking for a romantic edge in tragedies. Death Rock at face looks similar, but rather focuses on the thrill of living out the mindset of monsters and horror movie scenarios. Finally Emo, expresses loss and life's emotional experiences through dark metaphors. All these have been incorrectly lumped together at one point or another. I think of all things if wrongly labeled bands are to be mentionned, the section needs to address how the "dark" genres themselves differ from one another.

for example: Black Widow(Psychedelic) Black Sabbath(Heavy Metal) Skinny Puppy(Industrial) Bauhaus(Gothic Rock) Misfits(Death Rock) My Chemical Romance(Emo)

All these bands are dark, but are worlds apart thematically and musically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.119.37 (talk) 21:02, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

It's not always so easy to label groups. I completely agree that Marilyn Manson is not goth - but a group being part of one rock scene does not automatically exclude them from another. Killing Joke, The Cult, Siouxsie and other such groups have always effortlessly moved between genres, or had followings from several genres. They are not mutually exclusive. Gothic Rock is extremely varied, just listen to the Sisters of Mercy, The Virgin Prunes, All About Eve, ASF, XMAL and Gene loves Jezebel - you will be loathed to find any musical, cultural or even image connection between them all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xiuxiuejar (talk • contribs) 19:07, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Alice Cooper

 * How can any article about Goth not include Alice Cooper? Alice Cooper is to Goth what Iggy is to Punk. Goth is an aesthetic, not a specific musical genre. Jetblack500 (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * He's metal. Metal has fuck all to do with Goth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.58.8 (talk • contribs) 22:14, August 10, 2010


 * Gothic Rock is a music genre and Goth subculture a music-based subculture, have you even read the articles? ImaginaryVoncroy (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm a little unclear on who you're supporting with your comment. Also, there ARE people out there who are a part of the Goth scene and don't need to read wikipedia articles in order to have an understanding of said scene. And, as stated above, metal has nothing to do with Goth. Most Goths I know despise anything related to metal or the notion that Goth and metal are in any way related. "Alice Cooper is to Goth what Iggy is to Punk." Really? Alice Cooper is nothing to Goth. He's metal. You must be thinking of Rozz Williams.75.180.56.145 (talk) 07:53, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Ultravox as a Gothic rock band
Listen to their 1980. album ViennaItalic text, and 1981. Rage In Eden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ManOfTwoWorlds (talk • contribs) 14:45, 17 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, awful Synthpop/New Wave Pop. I can't hear any Goth sound. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.134.21.181 (talk) 12:43, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

(Eyeroll at above dissing of Vienna}

Well Ultravox falls under the "New Romantic" banner, not Goth, but I nevertheless kind of see where you're coming from. I don't think it's too crazy to suggest there's a "dark"/eerie feel to early works from Ultravox as well as Human League, Visage, OMD, Numan. The bands of course, deliberately put an alienated/detached mood to the music, and I suppose that mood is gloomy and maybe "Goth-like". Problem is, the themes in New Romantic Synth were ultimately more Sci/Futuristic-focused, while in Goth more supernatural/morbidity focused...thus, that distinction will always prevent above bands from being talked about in a "Goth" context (fair enough, since they aren't Goths).

But that being said, these bands in their early incarnation's are known to be described "postpunk", which is Goth's parent genre. Additionally, we know that synthpop itself is a confirmed Darkwave musical origin. So at the least, I'm thinking that some New Romantic synth influence in later electro-Goth music, isn't exactly improbable.

(I should note that despite my mentioning of Numan, he does have both Goth and New Romantic ties.) Theburning25 (talk) 09:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Psychedelic rock:
Should not be listed under "stylistic origins". This kind of music was popular before the existence of Punk and Gothic rock but is by no means responsible for the existence of Goth. Goth was born of the Punk movement. Punk was the antithesis of the hippie movement ("never trust a hippie"/"call all hippies boring old farts and set light to them"). Psychedelic music was neither responsible for Goth nor an influence on Goth. Punk was. Calling psychedelic rock Goth's "predecessors" does not imply that the 2 are somehow related. It simply means one came before the other. Really? Goth and psychedelic rock? Apart from disco or metal, I don't think you can get any more polar opposite. Calling for consensus here. Should "psychedelic" be listed under "stylistic origins" on this page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.180.53.229 (talk) 05:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * My only concern is that you are removing a sourced statement. Wikipedia articles are not created based on opinion, but on reliable sources. I don't care what is listed under stylistic origins, as long as it is sourced. Beach drifter (talk) 05:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not about your concern. It's about people making "sources" say anything they want them to say regardless of whether they are true or not. I could find 3 sources that claim the sky is pink. That doesn't mean it's true or it belongs on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.102.59 (talk) 06:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Does anyone have a copy of the Reynolds book? The wording may be significant in a distpute like this and unfortunately I do not have a copy.-- SabreBD  (talk)  07:51, 13 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Scott Walls interview "Psychedelic rock did not create hippies, hippies created psychedelic rock" Malcolm McLaren & Johnny Rotten defined Punk rock in the 70's and the quotes "never trust a hippie" and "call all hippies boring old farts and set light to them" can be attribured to them. Punk was a backlash against the hippie culture. Goth is an offshoot of Punk, so saying that psychedelic influenced the Gothic music scene is absurd. One band (Siouxsie) MAY have been partially influenced by psychedelic rock but to assert that the entire genre was inspired by hippie music given it's Punk rock roots is ludicrous.71.79.102.59 (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Who told you that psychedelic rock is the music of "hippies" and the goth-rock music is "punk. " Gothic rock formed from post-punk and not punk rock ... psychedelic-rock group The Velvet Underground is influenced goth-rock. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.205.19.215 (talk) 12:07, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Learn to read. Goth CAME FROM Punk. Hippies created psychedelic rock so psychedelic rock IS the music of hippies. "The Velvet Underground is influenced goth-rock" this statement makes NO sense. Wait for CONSENSUS before re-adding that unfactual statement. Thanks!71.79.255.156 (talk) 20:04, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well so far the consensus seems to be that you are a bit rude and are making assumptions based on personal beliefs. Additionally, it stands to reason that we need to wait for consensus before removing sourced content from the article, not before re-adding it. WP:BRD.  Beach drifter (talk) 21:56, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Not personal beliefs but historic fact. Also, where is this source? What does it say? What does it prove? Anybody actually read this page? Does it say that psychedelic rock came before Goth or that it actually influenced every single band that are considered original Goth... or just one? Sounds more like personal beliefs factor into why 178.205.19.215 keeps re-adding it. Where in the article does it say that psychedelic has anything at all to do with Goth? Jazz came before Goth too. Should that be in the "stylistic origins" section too? How about cave men beating on rocks with sticks? And "rude"? I find it rude that we're asserting that people who find hippie music offensive are somehow influenced by tree hugger gibberish.71.79.255.156 (talk) 00:03, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * If you can source your statement that goth fans all find psychedilic rock offensive, I will gladly eat my hat and then argue for your edit. You could probably of guessed, but if you go to the psychedelic rock article, jazz is listed as a stylistic origin. Beach drifter (talk) 00:28, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As said before it is best to quote the book. I do have the book and will try and check but I have the smaller US version and little time this weekend. To the "debate" what many are forgetting is that psychedelic music was far from all peace and love. There were the "psychedelic punk" groups like The Sonics and there was this group you might have heard of, The Doors who did not fit your strict definition of hippie. But gothic seems like six degrees of separation but if Reynolds said it fine. Edkollin (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks Edkollin. I will see if I can find a copy of the British version. I have no objection if it is in the source, although it should really be in the body of the article and not just the infobox.-- SabreBD  (talk)  09:06, 16 April 2011 (UTC)


 * "Many goth bands use drum machines that do not stress the back beat in the rhythm. Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure tended to play the flanging guitar effect, producing a brittle, cold, and harsh sound that contrasted with their psychedelic rock predecessors"

It sounds like Goth and Psychedelic rock have very little in common here so I'm surprised it was used as a source. Use of drum machines, flanging guitar effect, brittle cold and harsh sound and that it contrasted with Psychedelic rock. Sounds like there are nothing but differences being pointed out here and nothing in the way of similarity. Not sure how this is a stylistic origin, exactly. This just illuminates that these 2 genres don't seem to be in any way related. Use of the word predecessor sounds to me like Psychedelic rock was a music genre that came before Gothic rock and not much else here. WJKovacs (talk) 07:23, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Glam rock
This keeps getting deleted from the infobox, but, unlike the psychedelic reference above, it is clearly sourced in what is generally considered the most significant book on post-punk. For the record Reynolds (p. 420) notes: "And yet Goth and New Pop had something in common: routes in glam. ABC and the Human League loved Roxy and Bowie, but so did Bauhaus and Sex Gang Children. New Pop and Goth both represented a return to glamour and stardom - a backlash against post-punk's anti-mystique". I don't have any strong feelings on it, and how it is included is certainly up for debate, but as a principle we have to follow what the major sources indicate.-- SabreBD  (talk)  05:26, 1 August 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no "glamour and stardom" to Goth. It was a backlash against disco which was flashy, high energy and happy (which is why EBM has no place in a Goth club, see how that works, EBM fans?). Goth was slow, haunting and dark. Glam and Goth are not even similar. The only thing they have in common is that the bands wore makeup. Hardly as reason to compare the two. You may as well compare Bauhaus to Inane Clown Posse [sic], or Corpus Delicti to Winger. Liking a band doesn't mean your band sounds anything like said band. If your sound was influenced by another genre then, sure, said genre was a "stylistic origin". But if you just happen to wear the same kind of, say, pants as another musician then they're hardly an influence on your genre. Music genres are defined by their sound, not by what the musicians are wearing. Apart from wearing makeup, what do glam and Goth have in common? I'm coming up with "nothing". Anyone else?65.24.131.138 (talk) 04:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * First, it is not my view of influence, but a reliable source and in fact one of the most important. Second, it would be a mistake to think that the implication is that all of glam rock was an influence, as clearly a very specific strain is being pointed to here, Sweet and Slade are not being pointed to. Third, while aesthetics are a significant part of a genre (in punk for example) reliable sources indicate that they also affected the sound. For example, in Valerie Steele and Jennifer Park's Gothic: Dark Glamour (Yale University Press, 2008), they indicate that: "while goth's costumed performances originated in glam rock's aesthetics, musically gothic rock was shaped more by Bowie's and Iggy Pop's Berlin albums." For more specific details on style see [|here], which includes material on singing style, lyrics and guitar riffs, among other things. The fact is that reliable sources point to this as a major point of origin. Perhaps the best solution is some careful wording in the "Style, roots and influences" section that makes the nature and limits of influence clear. This has to be in proportion to the scale of the article and in balance with other influences, so just a sentence or two would probably be appropriate.-- SabreBD  (talk)  07:21, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Reversion of recent edits
A series of recent edits by Woovee, mainly concerning the origins of the genre, have been repeatedly reverted. These edits appear to be reliably sourced and no alternative evidence has been offered. It would be useful if those reverting could explain the reasons for these reverts so that and edit war can be averted and consensus developed over these issues.-- SabreBD  (talk)  07:25, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Quotations of sources
Is there some particular reason that so many footnotes in this article quote large sections of text beside the bibliographic sources? This is usually only done when a source is not easily accessible, or in some way in dispute, (see Citing sources), but a lot of these are actually available online. This does make it difficult to bundle identical references and the references are much long and more difficult to navigate.-- SabreBD  (talk)  07:48, 20 March 2012 (UTC)