Talk:Gotland astronomical calendars

Redirect
Two editors have redirected this article to calendar. I disagree with that totally. The subject of this article is not even mentioned with the calendar article - it does mention "astronomical calendar" but not as understood here.

I agree there is currently much wrong with this article but I suspect that it could actually be worked up into a useful article. Please give it time to develop. If you disagree with me, please take it to AfD. Do not try and sweep the matter under the carpet with a reduect. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 19:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I personally think it's a translated copyright violation. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 21:27, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it reads that way to me as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:37, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that it is a summary of this paper. I think that is Sören Gannholm, author of that paper. The duplication detector's report does not show enough similarity to justify a db-copyvio tag. And in any case, once Stavgard actually starts to communicate, he will probably agree to licence the page under the GFDL. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 21:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)
 * © Sören Gannholm. 1993 kinda precludes it being here. The Mark of the Beast (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

But it is not a sufficiently close copy to justify deletion as copyvio. I have received the following as a result of an e-mail to the address on that page:
 * Sorry I'm not Stavgard. I don't know what you're talking about. I have made investigations about grooves on the island of Gotland, where I proved that they have an astronomical connection because their directions are not randomly orientated. .. But I've not been on Wikipeda as Stavgard. Sören Gannholm

So we must look elsewhere for the author of this article. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 23:52, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately...
...the astronomical interpretation of these grooves are fringe theories unsupported by the mainstream, and there are no and will never be any reliable sources on the subject. This article could only be supported on Wikipedia if it can be shown that there is sufficient notability of the topic in mainstream media. But there isn't. Hence this article should be deleted. --OpenFuture (talk) 10:13, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. The calendar interpretation is a 1980s fringe theory with no academic standing, published by a local amateur scholar. See the Swedish version of the article. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 08:46, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Article Title
The article has now been renamed "Gotland astronomical calendars". This not a good title either since the calendar intepretation is a fringe opinion. I suggest "Gotland's ancient grinding grooves". Everybody agrees that the grooves are ancient and have to do with grinding. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 08:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * That's OK. I'm not sure they need their own own article, but I'm not against it either. --OpenFuture (talk) 09:11, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I support an immediate move to Gotland grinding groves. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 11:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Just wasted my time editing this article. I support immediate delete of this as a fork of grooves (archaeology) on a non-redirect worthy title. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 12:03, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Being an inclusionist, I don't want the article deleted. I just want it renamed and brought in line with professional archaeological opinion. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 12:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I was just about to rename it, when I wondered if not "Grinding grooves on Gotland" or "Grinding grooves (Gotland)" would be better. I think a native English speaker needs to make that decision. :-) --OpenFuture (talk) 13:26, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * To Martin and OpenFuture: this article has already been "renamed and brought in line with professional archaeological opinion" - have you actually looked at the grooves (archaeology) article? &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 14:18, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm confused now. The article is called "Gotland astronomical calendars". Such things do not exist. It needs renaming to something else, or merging with the Grooves article. --OpenFuture (talk) 14:29, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No, this article has not actually been renamed. What I am saying is that grooves (archaeology) which already exists, fully satisfies your request for a "renamed and brought in line &hellip;" state of this article. Have you looked at it? Do you agree? Therefore this article is totally redundant, has a misleading title and therefore it should simply be deleted. &mdash; RHaworth (talk · contribs) 16:27, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. If this article is separate or a section in grooves (archaeology) is IMO not a big issue, and I'm OK with both. --OpenFuture (talk) 17:36, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


 * OK, I get it now. I have commented on that article. Feel free to delete this one. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 20:24, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

The basis for this article is an article in Fornvännen 1983 http://fornvannen.se/pdf/1980talet/1983_021.pdf This article was edited and approved by the previous editor of Fornvännen Fil Dr Jan-Peder Lamm Fornvännen is a highly reputable magazine Göran H. wrote the article in 1982. Jan-Peder Lamm edited the article but suggested that Göran H. should include a comparison with Stonehenge. Therefore did J-P L supply Göran H. with archaeological history about Stonehenge. Göran H. re-wrote the article with comparison with Stonhenge and the article was published in 1983.

Jan-Peder Lamm, born 27 October 1935, is a Swedish archaeologist. He received his PhD in 1973 from the University of Stockholm for a dissertation about a Migration Period elite cemetery near Drottningholm. Lamm taught archaeology at the University of Stockholm in the 1970s and then worked until retirement as Head Curator for the Swedish Iron Age at the Museum of National Antiquities in Stockholm. He is a member of the editorial board behind the journal Fornvännen and has taken active part in the Helgö project since the 1960s. Fornvännen (print: ISSN 0015-7813, online: ISSN 1404-9430) is a Swedish academic journal in the fields of archaeology and Medieval art. It is published quarterly by the Royal Swedish Academy of Letters in Stockholm, Sweden. The journal's contributions are written in the Scandinavian languages, English, or German with summaries in English. Fornvännen has the alternate title Journal of Swedish Antiquarian Research. The editor in chief is Lars Larsson. Fornvännen began publication in 1906 when it replaced two earlier journals, Svenska Fornminnesföreningens Tidskrift and Vitterhetsakademiens Månadsblad. Early contributors included noted archaeologists Oscar Montelius and Hans Hildebrand.[1] Since 2000 it has an online version, since 2007 its first 100 annual volumes have been available on-line, and since 2009 Fornvännen is published as a delayed open-access journal with the online version of each issue appearing six months after the paper version. Fornvännen is an ERIH category B journal. According to Ulrich's, it is indexed in Anthropological Index Online, Anthropological Literature, British & Irish Archaeological Bibliography (Online Edition), Nordic Archaeological Abstracts, and FRANCIS. It was previously also indexed in Internationale Bibliographie der Rezensionen Geistes- und Sozialwissenschaftlicher Literatur and Linguistic Bibliography.[2] Henriksson, Göran. The grooves on the island of Gotland in the Baltic sea: a neolithic lunar calendar. Paper presented at Conference: SEAC 8th. Moscow 2000 Publisher: Institute of Archaeology. Russian Academy of Sciences. Title: Astronomy of Ancient Civilizations ISBN: 5-02-008768-8 Editor(s): Prof. Tamila Potemkina & Prof. V. Obridko Gotländskt Arkiv is the official yearbook for the Gotlandic Heritage Board, Föreningen Gotlands Fornvänner Stavgard (talk) 09:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

The title Gotland astronomical calendars should be deleted as it is covered elsewhere Stavgard (talk) 10:08, 23 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree that my old thesis supervisor J.P. Lamm has excellent credentials, but he isn't being referenced here. You're talking about his credentials because he edited a journal issue with a paper that you wish to refer to in 1983. That has nothing to do with the current state of research into the grooves. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 16:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)