Talk:Gott ist unsre Zuversicht, BWV 197

alternative text for movement 10 chorale
in Scoring and structure, the text of the final movement bwv0197 10 Chorale: So wandelt froh auf Gottes Wegen also shown here , and used by Koopman , Rilling, and Suzuki , in their recordings, is different from the text used in the Leusink, and Teldec (Leonhardt), versions : bwv0197 10 Chorale: Sing, bet und geh auf Gottes Wegen

This "diversity" suggests that the closing chorale has "optional" texts , one of which is indicated currently on the article page, the other being the same text used in movement 7 of bwv0093 , which (when the analysis by Alfred Dürr and others, below , is accepted) might properly be indicated in the History and text and Scoring and structure sections, as follows :

in Scoring and structure 10. Chorale: Sing, bet und geh auf Gottes Wegen or So wandelt froh auf Gottes Wegen (the order of these choices is irrelevant to me, but others may have a preference)

and in History and text, briefly ... the final movement 10 is verse 7 of the hymn Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten by Georg Neumark, or an adaptation of it (beginning So wandelt froh auf Gottes Wegen) suggested by Zelter ; the rest of the poetry is anonymous.

(I prefer) a more detailed formulation of the History and text changes ... the final movement 10 is verse 7 of the hymn Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten by Georg Neumark as recommended by Alfred Dürr, or an adaptation of it (beginning So wandelt froh auf Gottes Wegen) suggested by Zelter and adopted in the Bach Gesellschaft Ausgabe ; the rest of the poetry is anonymous.

The alternatives are discussed here for those who can read German (not me). There is also a helpful book in English , The Cantatas of J.S. Bach: With Their Librettos in German-English Parallel Text, By Alfred Dürr (ISBN 0-19-929776-2 Oxford Univ Press, 2006) ; from pg.752 of which I (briefly) quote :


 * The chorale which ends part II, no. 10, is transmitted without text in Bach's original score (the only surviving authentic source), yet there is no doubt that only the seventh and last verse of the hymn wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten by Georg Neumarck (1641) can be intended. It seems very doubtful whether the re-wording So wandelt froh ... (Then journey gladly ...), transmitted only in secondary sources from Zelter's circle and adopted in the standard modern editions, goes back to Bach. It should probably be regarded as a product of Zelter's editing, and is consequently best replaced in performance by the original text, used by Bach in, for example, Cantata 93, no. 7.

(BTW : the page Georg Neumark may need a redirect link from "Georg Neumarck", because some German authors spell his name that way ... However de.wikipedia.org does not).

Apparently, Dürr , who was himself an editor of the Neue Bach-Ausgabe , may not have been able to convince his editorial colleagues of the correctness of his view (or maybe he arrived at these conclusions after the NBA was published) ; but at least two respected conductors (Leusink and Leonhardt) seem to have followed his advice in their recordings.

The words currently listed on the article page do seem to appear in the Old Bach Edition (probably also in the New) ; this page may be of use, linking to this cantata in the Bach Gesellschaft Ausgabe, Band 13, here (see pg.50 of the .pdf file).

All but the last lines of the 2 'competing' verses can also be found here in what could be a part of the Neue Bach Ausgabe (or another modern reference source, from 1958). Reading in this online copy is made difficult by strict copyright limits. However, it is clear enough that Neumark's 7\th verse (on the left of the brief text extract from pg.87) begins with Sing, bet und geh auf Gottes Wegen , and the text of the Bach Editions begins So wandelt froh auf Gottes Wegen (on the right).

Also, all 7 verses of Neumark's 1641 hymn Wer nur den lieben Gott läßt walten , with an English translation, and a few notes on their uses by Bach , are here, as well.

I hope wikipedia editors will find this information sufficient to make the recommended changes.

70.106.152.64 (talk) 22:15, 9 December 2013 (UTC) mgt220 a yahoo,com

discussion of cantata bwv0197a
Cantata bwv0197a, Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe (Glory be to God in the Highest) , doesn't have a page of its own (just a redirect link), although more details are known about it than are provided in the current article ...

While the complete text of bwv0197a is available here , according to comments in this article (attributed to "Wolff", possibly Christoph Wolff) , the original score exists only as the concluding 19 bars for movement 4 , together with (complete score for) movements 5, 6, and 7. These movement numbers are assigned assuming that there was no opening Sinfonia.

Alfred Dürr also discusses cantata bwv0197a on pg.100 and pg.101 of "The Cantatas of J.S. Bach ..." (cited above) making similar notes about surviving materials.

Assuming that Bach wrote no opening Sinfonia, the 7 movements are :
 * 1) Chorus (?): Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe
 * 2) Aria (?): Erzählet, ihr Himmel, die Ehre Gottes
 * 3) Recitative (?): O! Liebe, der kein Lieben gleich
 * 4) Aria (A): O du angenehmer Schatz
 * 5) Recitative (B): Das Kind ist mein
 * 6) Aria (B): Ich lasse dich nicht
 * 7) Choral (SATB) : Wohlan! so will ich mich

Here are some excerpts of Alfred Dürr's notes on bwv0197a
 * The libretto of this cantata is by Henrici (Picander), and the closing chorale is the fourth verse of the hymn Ich freue mich in dir by Caspar Ziegler (1697). The text was ... published in 1728, and therefore Bach might have set it for Christmas 1728, or perhaps a year or two later.

which might be helpful in writing the article page ...

The current History and text section for bwv0197 seems rather more "certain" (or perhaps its author had better references than the ones I have seen) on the dating of the work :
 * Bach composed in Leipzig in 1728 a Christmas cantata,
 * Ehre sei Gott in der Höhe, BWV 197a (Glory be to God in the Highest) ...

Details on the required readings for Christmas Day can be copied from cantata 63 or 91 (identical, except for italic quoting around Bible sections) :


 * The prescribed readings for the feast day were from the Epistle of Titus, "God's mercy appeared" or from Isaiah, "Unto us a child is born", and from the Gospel of Luke, the Nativity, Annunciation to the shepherds and the angels' song ).

According to bach-cantatas.com, there have been (partial) recordings by Helmuth Rilling (movements 5-7 from the surviving score) in 1999, and by Masaaki Suzuki (movements 4-7, using a restoration of the movement 4 score by Diethard Hellmann) in 2012.

The editors could create a supplementary section for bwv0197a at the bottom of the page for BWV 197, as was done at the bottom of the page for BWV 11 , for Anh18 ; or, perhaps to greater advantage , create a new page for bwv0197a. I leave it to the editors to make changes they think appropriate, or to indicate below what additional data would be needed before taking action.

70.106.149.69 (talk) 14:32, 21 December 2013 (UTC) mgt220 a yahoo,com
 * Hey IP, I've started a separate article for this; feel free to expand it. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:16, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
 * It's found at BWV 197a and mentioned in this article, possibly a bit late. The relationship between works by Bach might be stressed a bit more, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:59, 21 December 2013 (UTC)