Talk:Gottfried Schloemer

Popular Science Monthly
Do we have an issue number for this? Volume 100 (I think) ran from January to June 1922, so that is six possible page 21s.

Popular Science had its archives online, and I can get hits back for volume 101 with random queries, but nothing for volume 100; so unfortunately it looks like they haven't uploaded that yet.

It would be nice to get the full article (and any title and/or byline). Presumably it's from January or Febuary, inspired by Schloemer's then very recent passing; but at the moment all I can see is just the snippet from Google. Jheald (talk) 18:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems to be May 1922, Vol 100, No. 5, page 25.
 * Just asked the Library of Congress for a copy of the article America's First Automobile - and its giant offspring!
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=OI5JAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA4-PA25&dq=Gottfried+Schloemer+Popular+Science&hl=en&ei=xJQDTrHaIcGcgQfk7tXpDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Gottfried%20Schloemer%20Popular%20Science&f=false


 * I assume you mean above article. Am I right? Hit the refresh button if it doesn't come in the first time.--Doug Coldwell talk 19:45, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Not sure how you knew it was May, but those two bits clearly fit together sequentially.  Shame a bit of the scan has got blanked just after that -- possibly a sign that a picture has been deleted.  A little more can be squeezed from the text search at Google Books:
 * "From this inventor's crude 'freak' of 33 years ago — the probable progenitor of the modern high powered motor car — has developed a gigantic industry in which $1204378642 of capital is invested. The amazing industry has grown too fast ..."
 * and (column 3):
 * "The giant progeny that grew from Steering wheel, radiator, and pneumatic tires were unknown when Gottfried Schloemer's 'horseless buggy' appeared intake. And that was only 30 years ago. Today the auto industry is so vast that it is hard to comprehend. In the United States alone are registered 9000000 pleasure cars and 1000000 tracks. If these cars formed a procession, radiators against rear wheels, the line would extend over 16000 miles. Half the population of the country could go auto riding at once, for 6000000000 passengers, as compared with 1235000000 ..."
 * but beyond that seems to be unobtainable -- at least not from Google, though I expect the LoC will be more help. 22:01, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Library of Congress has ordered that from their stacks. The librarian will scan it probably Monday or Tuesday and send me a clear PDF image. Send me an e-mail and when I get this article I'll forward the PDF to you so you can see the article clearly. How I got the exact issue number was by scrolling up (top scroll button) to the top pages (about five +/-) until I got the cover page (with a picture of Edison). --Doug Coldwell talk 22:14, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * That makes sense. I don't get a scroll-bar, just an unscrollable snippet.  I think it's a U.S./non-U.S. copyright thing from Google.  Jheald (talk) 22:17, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

1889 or 1892 ?
I'm getting a bit confused as to whether the machine first ran in 1889 or 1892 ?

Most of our article suggests 1889; but some sources say 1892, for example Geisst (2006) that we quote in the article.

The Milwaukee Public Museum has a picture on Flickr with a caption that includes "Schloemer later stated that his motor vehicle first ran in 1892."

I haven't yet been able to lay my hands on the 1983 version of Britannica we quote in our article as saying that Schloemer built the car in 1890. But this is what I have so far found in current versions of Britannica. A current online edition, in an article "History of the automobile > Development of the gasoline car > The United States" has:

Most authorities credit Charles E. Duryea and J. Frank Duryea with creating the first successful American gasoline-powered automobile, in 1892–93...

The Duryea was certainly not the first American-built road vehicle. A number of steam carriages had been built after Oliver Evans's first example (see above The age of steam). Nor was the Duryea the first American internal-combustion automobile. Sephaniah Reese, a machinist in Plymouth, Pa., built a graceful gasoline-powered tricycle believed by historians to have been completed in 1887. Henry Nadig, another Pennsylvania inventor, completed a vehicle and tested it in 1891, the same year as John William Lambert of Ohio City, Ohio, and Charles Black of Indianapolis, Ind.; William T. Harris of Baltimore and Gottfried Schloemer of Milwaukee, Wis., built successful cars in 1892.

while the current (2010) print version of "Britannica", which no longer has an article "Automobile", has under "Transportation > The rise of the automobile > Early efforts in the United States":

"Despite this many historians are convinced that Duryea was not the first U.S. internal-combustion automobile and that this distinction should be assigned to a gasoline-driven, single-cylinder car built in 1890 and run in 1891 by John William Lambert of Ohio City, Ohio."

Our article on the Lambert gasoline buggy also has a quote, from what may be even yet another version of Britannica:

"The magazine Antique Automobile, after five years of investigation, announced its conviction that the Duryea Brothers had not been the first United States internal combustion automobile, and that this distinction should be assigned to a car built in 1890 and run in 1891 by John William Lambert of Ohio City, Ohio."

-- though it's not clear (at least, not just from that) what the rules of engagement for the Antique Automobile investigation were. The wording at the top of our page on the Lambert buggy calls it the "first practical gasoline automobile available for sale in America". If that was the criterion used, it would not be incompatible with Schloemer having run his car in 1890, but not getting it into production.

A google book hit here also names James F. Hill and George Brayton as early pioneers, saying that Richard P. Scharchburg carried out extensive research into them. But I see that Brayton was primarily the creator of an engine; as for James F. Hill, he built a steam buggy that was at some point converted to gasoline but I haven't seen a date for that conversion yet.

As for the 1892 date, I'm imagining the confusion may be because that was the year that Schloemer did start to make concrete plans to get his machine into production (even if they came to nothing). The timeline given by the 1921 Milwaukee magazine (cited) seems sufficiently detailed to give the 1889/1890 dates a high degree of plausibility.

But I'm wondering whether we can confirm this with the Museum, and/or whether there are any really bulletproof assessments that really analyse the primary evidence? Can anyone lay hands on the 1960 Antique Automobile article? Jheald (talk) 18:30, 23 June 2011 (UTC)


 * Just sent off an e-mail to the museum about this. I originally contacted them in May and they said to contact them again in late June when their expert on this gets back. I'll be glad to send you a copy of this or a copy of their response, which I suspect will be in about a week. Just e-mail me if you want.--Doug Coldwell talk 18:57, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Just received this back: Carter Lupton is out of the office until Monday, June 27. --Doug Coldwell talk 19:02, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

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