Talk:Goy/Archive 2

Pejorative Sense
The question of whether goy in English has a pejorative sense is a constant source of contention on this page.

There are a number of considerations here: 1) We are talking about the meaning of the word "goy" in English - not Hebrew or Yiddish 2) Three English dictionaries are cited as references on this point all of which confirm that there is sometimes a pejorative sense. If anything the dictionaries say it more strongly - eg the oxford dictionary cited says Goy is "often offensive." 3) The article says that goy "sometimes" has a pejorative sense. Not always. 4) The article has a detailed section on "goy as a slur" which presents views of people who don't believe it should be primarily understood as pejorative.
 * When Jews use it, it def. has a perjorative sense. --105.8.7.149 (talk) 15:07, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Shiksa/Shegetz?
"Shiksa" redirects to this article but there is no explanation. Would someone please expand the article? Design (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have restored Shiksa because it was redirected here without the information there being added here. Editor2020 (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

"Shegetz" also redirects to "Goy" now but should it redirect to "Sheigetz" instead? Blisterpus (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, definitely. Thank you, warshy (¥¥) 14:51, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Pejorative Sense
The question of whether goy in English has a pejorative sense is a constant source of contention on this page.

There are a number of considerations here: 1) We are talking about the meaning of the word "goy" in English - not Hebrew or Yiddish 2) Three English dictionaries are cited as references on this point all of which confirm that there is sometimes a pejorative sense. If anything the dictionaries say it more strongly - eg the oxford dictionary cited says Goy is "often offensive." 3) The article says that goy "sometimes" has a pejorative sense. Not always. 4) The article has a detailed section on "goy as a slur" which presents views of people who don't believe it should be primarily understood as pejorative. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atrapalhado (talk • contribs) 18:18, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Conceptual vagueness
This page uncritically translates goyim as "nation" or "nations", but never actually defines what is meant by "nations". The word "nations" did not historically carry the connotations it now does, so some explanation of what precisely it was understood to mean would be greatly informative in the present article. 77.101.182.135 (talk) 14:44, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

This is a rather odd comment! The term "nation" is defined in the second paragraph. Atrapalhado (talk) 21:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

You're right, apologies - I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking 77.101.182.135 (talk) 16:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Exonym section
The section added nothing to the article specific to the word Goy. All of that information can be obtained by following the wikilink to exonym which appears in the lede. -- Avi (talk) 10:13, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Avi Thanks for this - I got a little carried away with the exonym point and on reflection I agreee a whole new section is not required! However, I think this is interesting and some more thought/amendment is required to get the point right.

I note a similar point about "exonyms" was added a couple of days ago to the gentile article and the removed as someone else argued that gentile (and presumably also goy) is not an exonym. I now think that is correct - eg the Wikipedia page on Exonym is clear that "exonym" is a word used to describe a particular group or place by people not of that group/place.

Nonetheless, "goy" (I refer to "goy" going forward but I think the same point applies to "gentile") is very often discussed in the secondary literature in comparison to other terms that imply outgroup - most notably gaijin in Japanese.

There is a whole Wikipedia article dedicated to List of terms for ethnic exogroups which includes "goy" alongside several other terms from other cultures, but it is a poor article, with no references and I cannot find the concept of "ethnic exogroup" used outside this wikipedia article.

In the absence of anything else I have therefore amended the "goy" article to link to that "ethnic exogroup" page and also to a robust academic article that explores the comparison to "gaijin." It seems to me, though, that there should be some academic literature somewhere that provides a clear term for words that mean "the outgroup", "the non-members" - however I cannot find it! Atrapalhado (talk) 15:45, 29 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Or perhaps the key difference between "goy" and "gentile" as English words is that goy is a type of exonym, while gentile isn't: a non-Jew might refer to themself as a gentile but would probably be looked at oddly if they described themself as a goy.  Again, it would be good to find secondary literature that referenced this point. Atrapalhado (talk) 17:16, 29 December 2022 (UTC)