Talk:Gracie Allen/Archive 1

Untitled
This article has been revised many times, but the quality notice keeps reappearing. Would whoever is putting it back please specify which section or sections are in need of "cleaning up"? I have read many less scholarly entries on Wikipedia which are not marked as needing editing. Specific feedback would be helpful here.


 * I'm not sure when the preceding comment is from, but I tend to agree with what is stated. The article has clear formation and referrences and uses correct grammar and sequence.  The tone is not discordant.  Im not sure what's being looked for here.  I'm not the author, so objectively I feel this article is an asset.  A better understanding of what may be lacking should be expressed so it's not a guessing game. TFBCT1 (talk) 11:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I kinda doubt color tv had anything to do with her heterochromia-shame. As you can see from the picture in this article, it's clearly obvious her irides are two different colors even in black-and-white.

Color TV probably didn't, because she was very retired by the time it began to become popular, but according to several of George Burns's books she wasn't bothered by it on TV mainly because it was in black and white. --Dan Moore 23:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Famous Closing
The "Good night, Gracie" legend refuses to die. I have corrected this several times, with some kind soul(s) coming in and "correcting" me every time. Prior to this most recent correction of the facts I watched more than fifty episodes of the Burns & Allen Show on video and DVD. The episodes were from a five-year period, and included both film and kinescope sources. The only episode which deviated from the norm ("Say good night, Gracie." "Good night.") was the January 29, 1953 episode which I quoted in the article. I also refer to specific, published references to back me up. Now that a large number of episodes are commercially available, I hope skeptics will watch for themselves instead of relying on faulty memories of the show. --Fshepinc 08:53, 16 June 2006

I back up this editor, George Burns said the same thing in his biography "Gracie a Love Story" about his wife. He claims they only did it once if ever, but he didn't even remember that, and that they didn't do it largely because nobody thought to do it. 216.201.48.26 (talk) 20:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Fshepinc! I'm incredibly surprised and pleased to see someone **finally** get this right. "Goodnight, Gracie" is a misquote on the level of "Play it again, Sam" never having been uttered in Casablanca. "Goodnight, Gracie" was even used once as the supposedly correct answer to a question on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire?, even though there is *no* surviving example of any broadcast where this joke has been used. I've personally, meticulously gone through almost 250 radio shows and 270 of the 291 TV shows looking for this line and can categorically state that if this joke ever was used, it hasn't been heard for over 50 years, because no surviving/publicly available Burns & Allen programs use it. None.

I hesitate to go further, but in fact, George rarely even said "Say goodnight, Gracie." Most of the time it was phrased, "Gracie, say goodnight." Nitpicky, to be sure, but frustrating as it's the *only* thing modern audiences are likely to know about Burns and Allen at all!

You can't prove a negative, so there's no way to ever definitely make this go away. WGaryW (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Family Section: Ronnie and Sandra
In the section on "Family" the article states that Ronnie and Sandy played their famous parents in a skit on the Burns and Allen Television program. While it is true that Ronnie played his father in the skit, Sandra was not the young woman who played Gracie. Sandy was on the show several times, often as the voice of an operator on the telephone. --Sarty 05:56, 15 January 2006 (UTC)Sarty

Absolutely correct. The actress who played Gracie opposite Ronnie as George was Diane Jergens. Harry Von Zell announces her name ("Diane Jergens as Diane") over the closing credits, as he did for every actor in a non-regular part throughout the series. Note that the IMDB has incorrect info, listing Diane as having been played by Judy Clark, with a separate entry for Diane Jergens with no character name specified. Unless the IMDB knows something Harry Von Zell didn't. WGaryW (talk) 19:43, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Year of birth
I have some strong evidence that she was born in 1895. The all-girls she want to (Star of the Sea in San Francisco) had her in the first graduating class, in 1909. Obviously, she could not have graduated at age 6.--Fallout boy 11:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This mostly agrees with (or at least doesn't significantly contradict) her appearance on the 1900 and 1910 censuses (1900: Assembly District 30, San Francisco, San Francisco County, California [microfilm Series T623, Roll 101, Page 36/Sheet 11A]; 1910: Assembly District 39, San Francisco, San Francisco County, California [microfilm Series T624, Roll 100, Page 145]). In 1900, her month of birth is July, but the year and her age are illegible. In 1910, her age is given as 13. This suggests that her year of birth was 1896 (the census was taken in April), but in any case, it wasn't 1902. Ardric47 04:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Although the year of Gracie's birth is illegible in the microfilm of the 1900 U.S. Census, the Soundex index card of that listing, transcribed directly from the paper original of the census schedule, clearly says Grace Allen was born in 1895. — Walloon 09:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I went to Star of the Sea Academy in San Francisco and used to walk by the alumni photos everyday. Gracie Allen was part of the first graduating class of SSA in 1914. So a birth year of 1895 would make the most sense because she would've been an 18 year old high school graduate in June 1914. As a sidenote, Star was coed when Gracie attended. It didn't become an all-girl school until a few years later. User:71.146.91.13|71.146.91.13]] 09:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)ms

This remains a bit of a mystery, but I can cite the book "George Burns and Gracie Allen: A Biobibliography" by Clements/Weber as pegging Gracie's birth year at 1895 as well. But you'll find several different birth years for Gracie ranging from 1895 to 1906 depending on which source you look at. The Biobibliography is a meticulously researched academic work, and all the above evidence here is convincing, so 1895 is very likely correct. WGaryW (talk) 21:47, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not possible for someone alive in June 1900 to be born after that month. 1906 and 1902 cannot be correct. That leaves 1895 or 1896. Ryoung 122 04:13, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm so glad Wikipedia has places to discuss these things! I just found out, because I kept trying to edit the page and I was doing it wrong. It says on her headstone she was born in 1902, but the geneology says different. Someone above says they saw her graduating class picture though? I guess that would make more sense that she was born in 1896/95 for that matter. Do you guys think the headstone thing was supposed to be funny? Maybe Gracie wanted to have one last immortal joke? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.112.195 (talk) 20:33, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Really a boy?
What does it mean "Gracie Allen was educated at the Star of the Sea Convent School as a girl"?

Is it trying to say this is a girls' school? Why is that phrase even in there?

To the author of the above comment:

"as a girl" is the same as saying "as a child," basically saying when she was younger.

JaeRae 10:40, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Gracie Allen Awards Merge Proposal
I would oppose merging these articles. I think the Gracie Allen Awards is notable enough to have it's own article. I would suggest an expansion of the Gracie Allen Awards article. James084 21:54, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

The
fact that gracie had once been disambiguation, &, is no more, is offensive, absurd.

Thank You.

&#91;&#91; hopiakuta &#124; &#91;&#91; &#91;&#91;%c2%a1]] &#91;&#91;%c2%bf]] &#91;&#91; %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense
"One of the show's running gags (both in radio and television) had Burns firing the announcer at least once every other episode."

I've listened to more than 50 WWII-era episodes and this never happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Z1perlster (talk • contribs) 03:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

This is partly true, in that it became a running gag starting on the TV series, specifically in the 5th season. There was one occassion where George fired Von Zell in the closing of the 4th season episode "Gracie wins a TV set", but it was a one-off gag until the 5th season. By the 7th season, Von Zell getting fired was indeed an almost weekly occurrence. WGaryW (talk) 13:15, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

PD Photo
The Library of Congress has a PD photo of Gracie with George Burns but is a bit rough.

http://memory.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c20000/3c28000/3c28500/3c28586v.jpg

http://memory.loc.gov/master/pnp/cph/3c20000/3c28000/3c28500/3c28586u.tif

68.116.185.180 (talk) 03:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

rather meaningless sentence
Their show was modestly successful, though the ratings began to decline.

What is "modestly successful"? When did a decline begin? Unless this can be made more specific, it is useless and should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.59.101 (talk) 02:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Easy Fact Checker
Many of the facts people wonder about, can be verified in George Burns' book : Gracie, A Love Story. You will find verification of the swimming pool story, as well as the last word on the "Goodnight Gracie" myth, also the straight story on television versus retirement, and a host of other things. In fact, if you have not read this, do it; it will touch your heart from the opening line, to the last page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kitty62862 (talk • contribs) 18:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

"Gracie: A Love Story" is indeed a wonderful book, and I agree with the general sentiment that people should try to check primary sources for information, but bear in mind that George Burns was far from a reliable source, by his own frequent admission. One shouldn't ignore what he has to say, of course, but he is very often wrong on facts that can be verified by listening/watching to the Burns and Allen radio and TV shows. And he very often completely contradicts himself in different books/interviews. E.g., the inspiration to make George the narrator and break the 4th wall on the TV show was attributed by George at various times to himself, to Bill Paley (president of CBS) or to Thornton Wilder (who used the device in the play "Our Town"). I can't cite the sources offhand (or I would put this on the main page), but if you read enough of his autobiographical books and listen to enough interviews, you'll note him contradicting himself and remembering objectively factual information incorrectly fairly often. WGaryW (talk) 13:25, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Votes in 1940
http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/national.php?year=1940&minper=0&f=0&off=0&elect=0 lists write-in votes as around 2,000 total. Gracie therefor cannot have gotten as many votes as the article suggests. I submit this be re-written. Thoughts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.50.111.48 (talk) 22:16, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'd noticed that too. In addition, Gracie's presidential campaign was suspended in June 1940 when the Hinds Honey & Almond Cream Show ended. When they started a new show for Hormel and Spam a week later, the campaign angle was gone without a trace. BurkeDevlin (talk) 14:40, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

My guess would be that the article is confusing the primaries with the general election. One episode of the show mentions (apparently legitimately) that Gracie got 63 votes in the Wisconsin primary. Maybe she did really well in some of the other ones. If you were a Republican who thought FDR was a lock anyway, why wouldn't you want to vote for Gracie? BurkeDevlin (talk) 14:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Coffee Table?
This article lists a coffee table has having been the point of contention leading George to "cheat" (Burns' word, according to a CBS News interview) on Gracie. George Burns told Ed Bradley, on CBS' "60 Minutes" that it was a "center piece" -- something which one would place upon a dining room table. For accuracy -- what was the actual item George bought Gracie to quell her potential anger over his indiscretion? Arguing over a possibly modestly-priced coffee table sounds a little strange (for rich show folk), but an expensive (hence - somewhat useless) center piece makes more sense. Strideman — Preceding unsigned comment added by Strideman (talk • contribs) 16:41, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Really?
This article states: "Since Gracie was alive in June 1900, it is not possible for her to have been born after that date." Really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.51.66.32 (talk) 06:05, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

"After her passing..."
Is the term "passing" encyclopaedic? "After her death" is more accurate. If I were a typical accredited editor of this site I would go ahead and change it, but there are too many people that like to run things here. "Passing" is a euphemism and it has metaphorical connotations to an unproven "afterlife" and is therefore out of place on this site. So, one of the accredited editors should remove this "faith-based" reference and restore encyclopaedic terminology. Thank you very much. -r 69.166.29.132 (talk) 10:16, 24 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, really? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:801:4280:A710:FCB8:EC64:B922:BB8B (talk) 14:03, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
 * There's nothing religious or faith-based about the term "passing". It is a euphemism, sort of - but not REALLY, because passing cannot mean anything other than death. The only thing it really implies is death of natural causes, not at a tragically untimely age (which, in those days, 70 wasn't so much considered untimely). Now, 'tis not as if the article says something like, "After she went to the Lord's kingdom" or "After her departure for the Great Comedy Stage in the Sky". Then you'd have a valid complaint. Firejuggler86 (talk) 06:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

"42,000 Votes in 1940?
I've edited out the unsourced claim that Allen received 42,000 votes in 1940. As an earlier discussion notes, that seems to be an urban legend. Bytwerk (talk) 18:37, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Age at death = Year of birth
@Anthony22 -- Anthony, people lie about their ages, and in 1963, even the NY Times did not have the resources to discern the true years of birth as we can do now. Allen's age at death (69) must result from her year of birth. During her lifetime, she claimed to have been born in 1906. According to Social Security, the year was 1902. However, other sources, i.e. census and immigration/naturalization records (when available, usually at ancestry.com), indicate she was born in 1895, which makes 69 her age at death. Many actors (usually female actors/actresses) lie about their age. Often, the true age will come out after the person has passed on. Sometimes we Internet surfers do some research on our own. See here for one thing. Yours, Quis separabit?  02:13, 11 March 2017 (UTC)