Talk:Graham Linehan/Archive 12

Memoir
The Chapter "Memoir" now exists twice in the article. I recommend deleting the second version, since the first is more detailed regarding to reviews. 95.91.8.30 (talk) 18:32, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

✅ Well spotted! Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:27, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Tough Crowd
Some thoughts on the memoir—it looks notable under WP:NBOOK#1 if someone wanted to create a standalone article. However, I imagine a Synopsis would prove difficult as it appears the book uses incorrect names for many individuals and makes claims that we can't repeat on Wikipedia for BLP reasons, at least unless we have sufficient secondary sources to say "Linehan falsely claims that ...". Pseudoscientific book summaries might be the place to look to see how secondary sources can be used to contextualise fringe material while also conveying the book's contents.

In this article, I presume we'd take Tough Crowd as reliable for statements about Linehan's early life and career that are not connected to transgender topics, which might be useful given the brevity of "Early life" and coverage of Father Ted and The IT Crowd. However, given that reviewers say things like "its author clearly hasn’t worked through his issues" (Irish Times) it's best to err on the side of attributing statements to the book or avoiding them if they seem the slightest bit dubious. — Bilorv ( talk ) 14:41, 26 December 2023 (UTC)


 * That article has now been created: Tough Crowd: How I Made and Lost a Career in Comedy. The (relatively) newly-created account (42 edits) referred to Linehan in the lede as 'gender critical', with one reference, so I've updated to reflect the references used on this article. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 11:02, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 January 2024
Graham misgendered the murdered teenage girl Brianna Ghey, twice on X (formerly Twitter), once at 13:01 (time) on November 28th 2023, and then again on the day of the announcement that two teenagers were found guilty of her murder; December 20th 2023 (at 19:44). Both tweets remain in the site under his account. Banglesdebelle (talk) 19:11, 20 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Red question icon with gradient background.svg Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Sideswipe9th (talk) 19:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Linehan called "anti-transgender" in first line, could be more accurate
I suggest changing "anti-transgender" to "anti-gender-ideology". People who are opposed to certain aspects of gender ideology, such as youth transition, facility use by transgender individuals, or simply pointing out that there is a difference between transgender and non-transgender people, are often not opposed to transgender people or transgenderism writ large. Graham has made it clear that he is opposed to youth transition and mixed facility use and believes there's a difference between transgender and non-transgender individuals, but has not signaled hate or opposition to transgender people generally. 108.39.236.230 (talk) 12:16, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
 * ❌. It's pretty clear from the content and sources that Linehan is an anti-transgender activist, and I would further suggest that telling a transgendered person that they can't use the facilities they're more comfortable with absolutely is "anti-transgender." In any case, this has been debated ad infinitum and I suggest you read the talk=page archives. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Gary Linehan Description
I've just been listening to Gary Linehan for the first time ever. I thought I wonder what other people think, so I started looking for information from other sources. You have incorrectly described him as anti-transgender. He would be better described as pro woman. From what I've read there are other people that have made this point before. If that's the case, then it's a disappointing indictment on Wikipedia. I look forward to your response. Buzz nz (talk) 20:34, 14 March 2024 (UTC)


 * You seem very confused, as this page is about Graham Linehan, not Gary Linehan. I do not know who Gary is. That said, Graham Linehan's stance is well documented, please see the FAQ at the top of this page. —  The Hand That Feeds You :Bite 20:37, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not "Very" confused, I simply mistyped Graham's name as apparently I wasn't concentrating fully. I notice you mention you don't know who Gary is, well, neither do I. I guess this highlights how simple it is for mistakes to be made. So now that we've cleared that up, perhaps we can move on to what does appear to be another mistake.
 * I agree with you that Graham Linehan's stance appears to be very well document. While I'm not suggesting my readings are exhaustive, he does appear to be an activist, but a pro woman activist as opposed to an anti-transgender activist. While the difference may be subtle to some, it is still a difference worth highlighting if one wishes to be accurate.
 * One of the the reasons I subscribed to Wikipedia was my belief that it's purpose was to assist sharing knowledge for the benefit of all. The knowledge shared should be as accurate as possible, but in this case, while the mistake is subtle to some, it is still a mistake. Buzz nz (talk) 22:28, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
 * “Pro-woman” reflects neither reality nor editor consensus here. “Anti-transgender” is the accurate description of Linehan. GraziePrego (talk) 22:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Edinburgh Stand Up Comedy "Show"
I think a counterpoint and supporting link to add a bit more background on this would be helpful. The current phrasing takes at face value that there was a good faith attempt to perform a stand up show as part of the Edinburgh festival that was unexpectedly cancelled then restaged.

In particular, the line stating "performed a stand-up comedy show" is misleading - Edinburgh festival shows are typically an hour, this was 5 minutes.

This article on Chortle humourously makes the case that cancellation was the desired outcome: https://www.chortle.co.uk/correspondents/2023/08/25/54015/the_graham_linehan_episode_has_proved_that_comedy_unleashed_are_just_as_mediocre_as_the_stand-up_mainstream Pumpumpump (talk) 18:33, 13 March 2024 (UTC)


 * There is a risk of straying into WP:NOTFORUM territory. I'm sympathetic to the idea that objectivity doesn't mean weighing up what everyone thinks and putting out the median line (the old adage "You're not supposed to report that one person says it's raining and another says it's not, when you can look out the window and check.") I'm also aware this is an area where there is a lot of media bias and we have to find the balance. But there are so many people who agree with Linehan's views and pop up periodically to say things like "He's not anti-trans".
 * My recollection of the events were that Linehan was not doing a solo show, but taking part in a package show where he was one of a number of comedians on the bill. The show is As I understand it the show had been advertised (and booked) as a bill of several "edgy" comedians, and Linehan was not part of the line-up when the venue was booked, and the show was pulled once his participation was revealed. I think it maybe could be clearer that the booking was for a package show, and was not "his" booking.
 * I think going harder on this line would open up accusations of bias, if not lead us into an area of WP:OR where we are reporting on the facts ourselves and looking for the sources to back us up. We get a lot of criticism of overemphasis on his "views" and the various ways he tries to express them, and not enough on the career he used to have, so we do I feel have to balance clarity with conciseness.


 * Rankersbo (talk) 12:06, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

identity politics
omg would you cool it with the identity politics and not make him a target of hate for supposedly being "anti-transgender", right in the first line? 77.2.69.70 (talk) 18:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
 * "Identity politics" is when an article reflects what someone is most notable for. The more you reflect reliable sources, the more "identity politics" you are. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 18:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Why is this page full of political bias?
It seems that this is a page that isn't written neutrally at all. Particularly in the light of the Cass review, the opinion in the UK has changed quite dramatically on this now. Can this not be revised to be neutral? Zaphriel (talk) 05:06, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Please provide reliable sources  Eve rgr een Fir  (talk) 05:49, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * There’s a million threads like this in the talk page archive, so checking to make sure they haven’t already covered what you’re suggesting is a good idea too. GraziePrego (talk) 05:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, being very specific about what you think should be changed is also helpful. GraziePrego (talk) 05:50, 27 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I think there is a distinction between whether his position on trans rights is in the right area, and his behaviour in promoting his views. The page focusses on his actions and the consequences, not on whether the political position they come from is correct.


 * To debate the Cass review and whether it endorses Grahams position (if not his behaviour) verges into WP:NOTFORUM Rankersbo (talk) 07:09, 27 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes this often comes up. The article isn't great but changes are hard to achieve.
 * Do remember that Wikipedia isn't about (anybodies) truth. It's just about what 'reliable sources ' say about a subject. That may be our limitation - but what better way is there? Lukewarmbeer (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Change request to The Day Today in credits
The mention of The Day Today states that he was credited in 8 episodes - this cannot be possible, as there were only 6. Can this be changed or removed as appropriate? 2A00:23C4:E31:6801:A9C3:4633:B81D:CF65 (talk) 23:31, 16 March 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I have checked and he's credited in episodes 1 & 3, but not the other 4, two of which have no "additional material". He's credited as part of his writing partnership with Matthews. Rankersbo (talk) 17:23, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the edit - having just checked, there's a similar issue with Brass Eye, as there were only 7 episodes of that, so he couldn't be credited in 8 of them. 2A00:23C4:E31:6801:A9C3:4633:B81D:CF65 (talk) 22:43, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
 * Credited on screen for all 6 of the series (Matthews and Baynham only other cowriters on every ep). Not credited on the 2001 special. Rankersbo (talk) 13:59, 22 April 2024 (UTC)