Talk:Grail Movement

This is sick, and they arent even the original cult. Its just an offspring of the real thing. So find out what the main cult is then you can find out more about this cult? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.56.33.181 (talk) 09:04, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

The Grail Movement described in this Wikipedia entry is neither an offshoot of any other organisation, a religion nor a cult. For details of the Grail Movement & it's origins: http://www.internationale-gralsbewegung.org/en/grail-movement-information.php Emmisgood (talk) 08:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Does anyone know of the Grail Movement 86.15.251.116 18:06, 16 March 2007 (UTC) http://www.internationale-gralsbewegung.org/en/grail-movement-information.php Emmisgood (talk) 08:46, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Beliefs?
i find it very odd that we have here an article on a religious sect with absolutely no mention of their particular beliefs and tenetsToyokuni3 (talk) 21:33, 8 August 2012 (UTC) i agree — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.75.162.80 (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

The contents of the Grail Message, detailing all tenets & explaining all basis for the philosophy & convictions of adherents of The Grail Movement are freely available online at: ″www.grail-message.com″ or ″http://www.internationale-gralsbewegung.org/en/grail-movement-homepage.php″ Emmisgood (talk) 08:34, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

June 2008
Well, I had never heard of the group but I am sure there will be plenty of people taking a closer look. Does, anyone know of the "secret teaching/beliefs" that led to this inhumane behavior?PEACETalkAbout (talk) 02:32, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If you are referring to the Czech child abuse case, please note that the Czech Supreme Court has validated and upheld a previous court verdict that the Czech press article trying to link the Grail Movement to this case was falsified and untrue, and the newspaper had printed a retraction and apology on 21.12.2010. Emmisgood (talk) 02:08, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

removed rogue text and reference
The following was left as a comment, quotation, and rogue reference in this article. If someone wishes to verify and insert it, please do so.Renee (talk) 19:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)


 * ''Commented out this section. It needs to be incorporated into the article as prose.
 * "In the Light of Truth is published and distributed by the Grail Movement, with headquarters in Austria; there is practically no scholarly research available on the Grail Movement, and the only good and relatively recent overview by outsiders is a research paper written by two German Protestant theologians: Karin Verscht-Biener and Hans-Diether Reimer, Die "Gralsbewegung", Stuttgart. Evangelische Zentralstelle für Weltanschauungsfragen, 1991 (Series "Orientierungen und Berichte", N° 18)." 

Concern re: disambiguation
There is an "International Grail Movement" that predates by almost 30 years the so-called Grail movement described here. The International Grail Movement is an international, interfaith women's movement that was begun by Catholic women in 1921. According to the web site Grail at Cornwall-on-Hudson, they are "committed to spiritual search, social transformation, ecological sustainability and the release of women's energy throughout the world."

I have heard from Grail members that they are disturbed by the appearance of this other disturbing information as the only mention of Grail movement in wikipedia. But they are not people familiar with editing wikipedia. I also am unfamiliar with what is required to create a disambiguation page.

A disambiguation page needs to be created in order to distinguish these organizations. There is plenty of information available on the web to provide references for the earlier, women's Grail movement. I'm willing to write that page. Prairiefyre (talk) 17:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)Prairiefyre

I share this concern for disambiguation, as I was searching for information on the earlier Grail Moverment, and found this very strange article about a very strange group. SteveH (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I have created a separate page for the similarly named women's movement, at Grail (women's movement) and updated Grail (disambiguation) accordingly.  Also, this page and the new page now have respective "about" tags at the top. -- Chonak (talk) 03:49, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

Deletions
I've reverted the article back to 02:53, June 23, 2008 to undo a series of major deletions of sourced material made without explanation. If there's anything with a source in the article that doesn't belong please give a reason.  Will Beback   talk    05:51, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Czech cannibalism case
This was deleted from the article: The edit summary was: If the newspaper retracted its story then I agree that this should be omitted. Can we see evidence of the apology? When was it printed? The story is still on the newspaper's website.
 * Czech cannibalism case
 * In June 2008, in the city of Brno, Czech Republic, cult members were arrested for torturing and eating the son of cult member Karla Mauerova who was complicit in the atrocities. The seven year-old son, Ondrej, had been partially skinned after his mother kept him in a cage for months, inviting relatives and other cult members to eat his flesh. Ondrej and his nine year-old brother Jakub were kept in cages or handcuffed to tables as they were ritually tortured, burned, and whipped with belts.[ref]Boy eaten by family The Sun, June 20, 2008[/ref] The boys were rescued only after a neighbour picked up evidence of the abuse on a baby monitor.
 * There was no cannibalism reported in this case and there were no movement members involved. The newspaper publisher was ordered to apologize for injustly connecting the Grail Movement with this case.


 * Emmisgood: The original newspaper's story was in a Czech newspaper (referenced on the actual Wikipedia page), which the Sun newspaper, amongst many others, picked up and reprinted without verification. The Czech Supreme Court validated and upheld an earlier court finding that the Czech newspaper article was falsified and erronous and that any references to the people involved being members of or leaders of the Grail Movement to be false, and ordered a retraction and a public notification on the 27th November 2010. The retraction occurred in the Czech newspaper on the 21st December 2010. Emmisgood (talk) 02:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

The Daily Mail had a piece which mentioned the Grail Movement. Was that also retracted? Checking Proquest, I see this article that tentatively connects the incident to the Grail Movement: "A CZECH court has jailed five people involved in abusing children in rituals linked to a bizarre religious cult.

[..] Investigators believe Ms Skrlova was being somehow groomed to become a future "deity" for followers of the small sect to which she belonged, which broke away from the larger Grail Movement several years ago.

The Mauerova family and several other people involved in the case are members of the cult, which is thought to be led by Ms Skrlova's missing father."

- Czechs jailed over child abuse linked to cult DANIEL McLAUGHLIN. Irish Times. Dublin: Oct 25, 2008. pg. 11

That, printed just over a year ago, is the most up-to-date and relevant discussion of the matter that I've found. If there's no objection I'll restore the material and make sure it reflects reliable sources.  Will Beback   talk    12:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I sincerely apologize for an inaccurate edit. I have now obtained a precise formulation as well as reliable sources for the article from the spokesman of the Grail Movement in the Czech Republic and I am pasting his reaction here:

Dear Mr. Beback,

I have rewritten the questionable chapter, as the story really happened, and asked Mrs.Strakova to convey it friendly to Wiki. I myself am open to any question, supplement or contact, having nothing to hide.

Best regards Artur Zatloukal, spokesman of the Grail Movement in the Czech Republic, kontakt@hnuti.gralu.cz

Strakova (talk) 18:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that re-write, it's much better. One problem though is with this paragrph:
 * The Grail Movement responded vigorously at press conferences and in articles, stating that people involved had been previously part of it, but the Movement broke with them 11 years ago, 1996, their behavior being quite opposite to the Grail Movement’s principles. They must have probably established its own bizarre cult, having, however, nothing to do with the Grail Movement. This statement was supported by the opinion of all Czech religionists inquired ([ref]http://www.stampach.cz/pelmel_detail.php?id=194[/ref], in Czech).
 * What is the nature of that linked source? Is it a blog, a newspaper, or what? Who is the author? Also, I'm just reading it in a horrible Google translation,  but I don't see where it makes the assertion about " all Czech religionists". Is that from a different source, or did I just miss it in the translation?    Will Beback    talk    21:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the hint at the lax reference.


 * The linked source mentioned is a website of a leading religion sociologist Dr. Stampach, whose article was printed in Mlada Fronta DNES 22. 5. 2007. Today, it is available on the newspaper's web for registered users only, so I did give his own website's reference. But, sorry, without an appropriate explanation.


 * The PC-translated text "The solid religionistických sources are the high religious groups ." means in human terms "In solid religion sociology sources, nothing is referred about this free religious group (the Grail Movement is meant), which might justify suspicion of child abuse and kidnapping." etc.


 * So I would like to set it right, explaining it and increasing the number of religion scientist's references, inquired in the case. I beg again the younger and more computer-wise Mrs. Straková to rearrange it, incl. renumbering the references.


 * Best regards Artur Zatloukal


 * Strakova (talk) 10:43, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The Prague City Court, on 27th October 2009, concluded and released a finding that the claims in the press and others, including reprints in other publications, that an association between the perpetrators of this crime in question and Grail Movement did not exist at the time. The media entity was found to have printed false information in this regard, and instructed to to print an apology and pay costs. A certified English translation of this Prague Court finding is available for Wikipedia staff or controlling editors for confirmation. Emmisgood (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2014 (UTC) Emmisgood

falsified
Can someone with some knowledge of the case please clean that up. It's unreadable right now. --Cabazap (talk) 06:26, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Is this a Christian offshoot or not?
I notice the big "WikiProject Christianity" thing on the talk page, and yet no mention of Christ or Jesus on the main article or its talk page. Either "WikiProject Christianity" needs to be removed or Christianity needs to be added to the main article. Doubledragons (talk) 19:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

I tried to find the "talk" page for the Grail (womens' movement"), and it stated that this was the only page I could use, which is ridiculous because there is ABSOLUTELY NO CONNECTION between this organization I never heard of and the International Grail Women's Movement. The Grail Women's Movement page needs some major revisions, updating and expansion. It implies that the International Grail Women's movement is connected with the Roman Catholic Church, and it is NOT, hasn't been for quite a while now.  The English Women's Grail group IS connected to the Roman Catholic Church, and it looks as if they may have written this page.  But the English Grail Group is NOT part of the International Grail because of its identification with the Roman Catholic Church. We want to incluce the Vision and Mission statements and some information about the work of the Grail.  The re-write will be approved by the International Council of the International Grail Women's Movement. Margaret Goederer, Grail member. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pearlmaam (talk • contribs) 19:53, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Requested move
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pearlmaam (talk • contribs) 16:35, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Disregard Requested Move
Please disregard the above requested move. It was made in error.Pearlmaam (talk) 20:39, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Updates & Clarifications
Addressing the issues listed:

Various updates & clarifications to restore neutrality have been undertaken over a period of time

Multiple CleanUp actions & revisions have been undertaken

This article has been rewritten and edited by Grail Movement members and Wikipedia members, seeking to adhere to quality standards

Additional citations have been added for content verification purposes. I am happy to provide more if and when required

Thank you for your assistance - Emmisgood

Emmisgood (talk) 09:04, 22 June 2016 (UTC)Emmisgood (talk) 09:02, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

—

From the horse's mouth
"EPILOGUE

Abdruschin has now completed His Message to mankind. In him has arisen

IMANUEL,

the Envoy of God, the Son of Man, whose coming to judge and to save those who have not cut themselves adrift from salvation, was foretold by Jesus the Son of God in corroboration of the prophecies of the prophets of old. He carries the insignias of His high Office: the living Cross of the Truth radiating from Him and the Divine Dove above Him, the same in-signias as were borne by the Son of God.

Awaken, oh man! For your spirit is asleep!"

- Abdruschin

"Newspapers in all countries published reports of the mysterious “castle” on Vomperberg, of which I was supposed to be the owner! I was described as “the Messiah of the Tyrol” or “the Prophet of Vomperberg” with great and prominent headlines, even in the leading newspapers which wish to be taken seriously! There were weird and mysterious accounts of numerous underground tunnels, of temples, of knights both in black and silver armour, of an unheard-of cult, also of great parks, automobiles, stables, and whatever else could be invented by the diseased brains that can report such things. Details were quoted, some based on beautiful phantasy and others so disgustingly filthy that anyone giving a little thought to the matter could not fail immediately to recognise the lies and malevolence behind it!

And there was not one word of truth in any of these reports!"

- Abd-ru-shin

Not a word of truth about the Messiah of the Tyrol? Seriously? Just compare the two quotes! He lied through his teeth, err, fingers. Yup, journalists have read what he wrote. That way they knew about his messianic claims. I did not read the claims about knights in armor, but those could have been sarcasm (satirical). Since he wrote he is the Messiah, they must have thought this man is crazy, let's make sport of him! The journalists were deriding him and they let him know it. That's why he complained in the Message of the Grail that he was crucified through ridicule. The journalists noticed that he made larger than life claims about himself. One man's religion is another man's laughing stock.

Note: in EU his book is public domain, and in the US the use of quotes falls under fair use. So, of course, I own the book: in my country everyone owns it. That's what "public domain" means: all the public owns it. If you don't like it, your sole remedy is to never set foot in the EU. Since if you had set foot in the EU you have recognized my intellectual property of the book. I own the copyright for the book, same as every other EU inhabitant. There's no need to pay me money for it, since you can always find an EU inhabitant who is entitled to donate this book to you. Should I say sarcasm warning? Tgeorgescu (talk) 09:59, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

As you see, this is not unproven allegation and rumors about the Grail Message and it's author. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:22, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Overcite
When true believers were deleting the information like they were obsessed, citing multiple WP:RS was needed in order to show that it is not the opinion of one nutty professor, but a widely shared view inside the academia. tgeorgescu (talk) 12:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)