Talk:Grand Admiral Thrawn/Archive 1

Bad pic
I'm stunned that that image of Thrawn came from Starwars.com... It looks absolutely horrible. I could do a much better Photoshopping job myself. Just my opinion. --Kuronekoyama 07:39, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)


 * How about this one? --maru 12:15, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)




 * Didn't that picture come from some Star Wars card game? They had models pose for the images of Thrawn, Karrde, Mara Jade, etc. --Kuralyov 17:57, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it came from SW Insider, since the other Grand Admirals pics are in the same style. I think it is considerably better than that ludicrous one that's currently up- it projects no menace or intellgence at all. When I see it, I want to snicker. --maru 18:18, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * I'd personally prefer a screengrab from TIE Fighter. --Golbez 18:43, Jun 24, 2005 (UTC)

I took some time to take some screens from TIE Fighter. One with regular DOS-like image output, and one using the HQ2X pixel scaler to smooth out the jaggies. I also found a page with the cover from the new Outbound Flight novel by Zahn. Very nice cover with young Thrawn, IMO. I definitely think the current image should be changed out with one of these 3. --Swaaye 03:15, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
 * edit - got rid of images I put here. Decided to just put them in article because images are not supposed to be on talk pages. --Swaaye 19:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Untitled
Hello guys, Has anyone thought of the similarities bewteen Thrawn and the real life person Lord Horatio Nelson? --220.237.163.219 13:27, 25 April 2006 (UTC) MSvDA

Is there any reason for the Sherlock Holmes comparrison?
It doesn't seem to me that this adds anything to the article. Furthermore, without any outside sources this comparison seems to be entirely an original work. Unless both of these concerns are addressed, I think that it would be best if this section were to be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.201.3.17 (talk) 23:09, May 18, 2006

Outbound Flight Project
Qoute from the article:

"Palpatine was first alerted to Thrawn's tactical genius even before he assumed the title of Emperor. The Outbound Flight Project, a Jedi expedition into deep space, was to be intercepted and destroyed by Palpatine’s forces, but before this could occur, they themselves were ambushed and nearly annihilated by Thrawn's border patrol on the edge of the Unknown Regions. That a squadron of the Republic’s most elite fighter pilots could not only be defeated, but also annihilated by the rudimentary defenses of a backwater planet was a credit to Thrawn's spectacular strategic skills."

"squadron of the Republic’s most elite fighter pilots"? acording to the Book: Outbound Flight these were Trade Federation Droid Starfighters, not human pilots or even Republic! Thrawn does not even truly encounter the Galactic Republic in the book at all! This needs to corrected. --The Matrix Prime 21:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah... Lovely how Lucas' prequel trilogy respects the EU material that came before it, isn't it? That first paragraph was completely accurate - as of the release of Vision of the Future. Not so much now. --maru  (talk)  contribs 02:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of OF, i have this quote from the article: "It was later speculated by Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker, after the events of Outbound Flight, that there was another Thrawn clone loose somewhere in the galaxy [...]". I think it's a strange statement (i haven't yet finished reading VoF though), but i haven't yet been able to find the edit that inserted it. It was not added this year, that's for sure. -- 86.121.177.244 (talk) 11:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Finally found that edit... And an argument that suggests Tierce as being a possible answer. Now i'm thinking that this issue should be reworded, but i have no idea how, exactly. -- 86.121.51.222 (talk) 18:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Defacto Galactic Emperor?
It does not seem from the books that this was one of his true ranks. Sure he was a warlord for the empire, and he commanded the imperial forces after the battle of endor, but where does he become galactic emperor? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtsmith2005 (talk • contribs) 02:22, February 26, 2007

In-universe tag
This article is all plot summary from the various books. Article needs to establish real-world notability/significance -- can anyone cite worthwhile (i.e. not fansite) reviews and whatnot that identify Thrawn as a compelling antagonist, or relate the character back to the Thrawn Trilogy's overall role in revitalizing Star Wars EU? --EEMeltonIV 14:34, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * this is a top importance starwars article... -Rebent 15:49, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:OldMoff.png
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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Fictional?
Why do some of the headers include "(Fictional)"? The whole Star Wars enterprise is fictional. "(Fictional)" should be removed from the headers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.156.242.169 (talk) 15:04, February 7, 2009

Main image
Hello, I'm wondering what the reasoning is for using the current image on the Thrawn page? It appears to be fan art, rather than an official image of the character released by LucasFilm. While I understand that Wikipedia enforces strict image guidelines regarding fair use, is the current image not misleading? Multiple licensed images of Thrawn exist, and surely one would be suitable under the image guidelines? As it stands, this article purports to show an image of the character than others may believe to be a licensed, canonical image of the character, when in fact it does not. At the very least, should the image not be captioned to clearly state it is not an official image? - Cavalier One (talk) 21:44, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I know nothing about wikipedia's rules about images, but I would like to mention that the image, regardless of its origin, doesn't look much like the official artwork for the character. 170.28.224.10 (talk) 20:55, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Infobox image
Starting a new discussion because two or so years have passed, and it's only recently been added. I'm fairly certain that the current image is fan art. I'm not the best at French, but the description for its first appearance seems to be talking about the character. If so, I don't think it's appropriate for the article. Assuming it is removed, I'm having some trouble deciding what to replace it with. I like this one, though it's got another person there. There's also:. Also, some others you can probably see scrolling through Wookieepedia's article on him.

Of course, if it is appropriate, then I guess the whole thing's moot, what with these all being fair-use and all. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 01:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * I was about to reply with an agreement and suggestion for the picture with Capt. P. But, ya already did it! Thanks! --EEMIV (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Thrawn is now canon
During today's Star Wars pannel, particularily the Star Wars Rebels one, Thrawn was introduced into the new canon. I think it should be mentioned with further detail yet to surface. But he has been officialy confirmed now.TheMightyGeneral (talk) 17:02, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * We should mention that whilst the character himself is now canon, the events of his life are not. The only canonical events will be the ones we will see in Rebels and the new Timothy Zahn novel coming next year. --Jsngrwd (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm working on reorganizing this article, as everyone may have noticed haha. The next big hurdle is the Legends section, which should be laid out from a real-world perspective, discussing the novels in real-world chronological order, and not presenting the info an in-universe bio of the character. However, I have not read all the novels, so reworking the existing text into a better format will be more difficult that sort of starting over and reintroducing some of it as needed. With that in mind, I was considering moving the bulk of the text here and rebuilding that section of the article, but I didn't want anyone watching it to have a heart attack.— TAnthonyTalk 16:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Also, should we be using the new Rebels image, or sticking to a Legends one? — TAnthonyTalk 16:25, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * My view on the image: Thrawn, as a fictional character, gained notability and popularity from his role in the early EU. I don't think we should be deliberately trying to find a "canon" image since 1) we're not writing from an in-universe or from a canon perspective, so sticking to depictions within a continuity aren't really that important, and 2) it feels a bit like recentism to me. And ultimately, I'd want an image that best illustrates who Thrawn is in design, which the current image does. Rebels uses (admittedly pretty good) TV CGI animation, after all, so is a bit simplified and low quality in comparison.
 * I'd be in favour of rewriting the Legends section basically wholesale, really, but I'm in a similar boat of not having read most of the stuff. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 18:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I agree about sticking with a Legends image, though this one is completely awesome, anyone know what it's from?— TAnthonyTalk

I have copyedited the material related to the Thrawn trilogy and The Hand of Thrawn, and per my previous comment I am moving the rest of the (huge) plot/background section here for archival purposes. It is currently formatted/written like a biography, which is not appropriate for fictional characters. We can reintroduce parts of it, referenced back to the source works, over time. Next I'll work on incorporating info from Survivor's Quest and Outbound Flight, as well as video games.

Thrawn rises to the rank of Commander in the Chiss Expansionary Fleet. He becomes convinced that the Chiss were facing a threat from an unknown but powerful foe and also from a nomadic race of slavers, known as the Vagaari. Aware of the risk posed by fighting a war on two fronts, he decides that it is necessary to launch a pre-emptive strike to destroy the Vagaari. Thrawn largely goes against the Chiss rule of non-aggression, repeatedly baiting his enemies to commit an act of aggression against the forces under his command, but colludes with Admiral Ar'alani (who had commanded the task force that fought off an initial incursion from the Far Outsiders) to eliminate the Vagaari to prevent a two-front war. Thrawn also captures a trio of smugglers, among them Jorj Car'das. His curiosity piqued, Thrawn keeps them around in order to learn more about them, including their culture and their language.
 * Pre-empire

Palpatine was first alerted to Thrawn's tactical genius before the rise of the Empire, when the Sith Lord was still the Chancellor of the Republic. The Outbound Flight Project, a Jedi expedition into deep space, was to be intercepted and destroyed by Special Task Force One — a formidable squadron of Neimoidian and Techno Union combat vessels — under the direction of Darth Sidious; however, before this could occur, these elite Trade Federation forces were themselves ambushed and nearly annihilated by Thrawn's defense forces. Thrawn's smaller force exploited weaknesses in the communications system of the Task Force's droid fighters and deployed conner nets against the fighters and the Techno Union ships' missiles, turning fighters and missiles into weapons against their own host Task Force.
 * Outbound Flight

Sidious was represented on the scene by his trusted advisor Kinman Doriana, using the alias Commander Stratis. Doriana/Stratis was "secretly" serving both Sidious and Palpatine, himself unaware that they were one and the same. Stunned by Thrawn's victory and scrambling to survive both this encounter and the Sith Lord's wrath over his failure, Doriana decided to risk exposing his true name, agenda, and position within the Republic. He met privately with Thrawn, introducing him to Sidious via HoloNet in an attempt to convince Thrawn that the Jedi expedition could expose the Republic to a new alien threat Sidious had sensed at the edge of the galaxy. Thrawn knew of the alien species to which Doriana and Sidious referred, the Chiss having already encountered a small scout group of these "Far Outsiders" (the Yuuzhan Vong, though their identity is not revealed) and defeated them. With this new alien threat reinforced by Palpatine and Doriana, Thrawn agreed that allowing Outbound Flight to proceed as planned posed a danger, possibly to the Chiss as well as the Republic. Thrawn confronted Jedi Master and Outbound Flight Leader Jorus C'baoth and entreated him to avoid Chiss space and leave the galaxy in a different direction. C'baoth refused.

To defeat the formidable Jedi forces aboard Outbound Flight, Thrawn maneuvered around investigations of his activities by superior officers, and he conspired with his guest Jorj Car'das into luring the Vagaari, an aggressive nomadic species operating near Chiss space, into a double trap, for Outbound Flight and the Vagaari. Thrawn used a Vagaari gravity well generator (a weapon unknown in Chiss and Republic space until stolen by Thrawn from the Vagaari earlier in the book) to pull both the Vagaari fleet and Outbound Flight out of hyperspace at a point within the patrol area of Thrawn's Chiss Expansionary Defense Fleet. Thrawn thought the Vagaari would find such a large, tempting vessel irresistible, and he was correct; the Vagaari immediately attempted to attack Outbound Flight. Thrawn's forces controlled the droid fighters remaining from the earlier Trade Federation engagement and used them to cripple the Vagaari fleet while that fleet also struggled against C'baoth's Jedi mind-meld attack.

Thrawn later maneuvered his vessels to within Outbound Flight's shields, facilitating the destruction of its turbolaser weapons pods, in which almost all of the Dreadnaught's Jedi had been stationed. As a result, nearly the entire Jedi population of the vessel was eliminated in this attack. Jorus C'baoth, having then succumbed to the dark side, attacked Thrawn with the Force. Doriana, in a last-ditch effort to fulfill Sidious' wishes and save Thrawn, operated a toggle switch on Thrawn's command chair, causing the droid fighters to cease all attacks on the Vagaari and set course for suicide runs on Outbound Flight. Other fighters also switched to attacking the Outbound Flight forces with special, hull-penetrating weapons that delivered lethal radiation to the interior of the Dreadnaught. These anti-personnel weapons, which Thrawn had hoped to avoid using, killed almost the entire Outbound Flight population, nearly 50,000 individuals. Only a small group of people deep within the storage core survived. Thrawn was deeply saddened, as mass murder had never been part of his plan.

Thrawn was later exiled from Chiss society to an uninhabited planet. Many years later he was discovered by (then) Captain Parck. After seeing his unique tactical abilities, Captain Parck offered him a commission in the newly formed Imperial Navy, promising that in time Thrawn would be allowed to return with a force powerful enough to protect his people.
 * Exile

Thrawn's early Imperial career has been described in several Star Wars stories. Thrawn was originally a Captain of the Victory-class Star Destroyer Stalwart and commanded several deep space expeditions. He was then promoted to Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral, respectively, and was in charge of a forward deployed fleet. He also played a hand in Research and Development.
 * Early Imperial career

In the Star Wars computer game TIE Fighter, an early campaign (Tour of Duty 3) showed how Thrawn established order in a "wild" system at the frontiers of the Empire. Thrawn foiled a coup attempt against the Emperor by the renegade Grand Admiral Zaarin with the aid of his top pilot Maarek Stele. Thrawn and Stele afterward helped to nullify Zaarin's TIE Defenders by developing the Missile Gunboat. As a result of his efforts, he was promoted to Grand Admiral. Although Thrawn and Zaarin were very much tactical equals, Thrawn eventually outsmarted and defeated his nemesis for good.

Thrawn did have enemies within Imperial loyalist circles. Prince-Admiral Delak Krennel (who briefly collaborated with Ysanne Isard in X-Wing: Isard's Revenge) formerly served under Thrawn, but Krennel's career with the Imperial Navy was almost ruined after Thrawn dismissed him. Captain Dorja of the ISD Relentless was openly critical of Thrawn and Gilad Pellaeon, even when his Destroyer was part of Thrawn's personal squadron.

During the Dark Horse Star Wars comic, "The Making of Baron Fel", Baron Soontir Fel was an ace pilot with the 181st Imperial fighter division who distinguished himself during the ambush of a Rebel convoy. That operation was planned by Thrawn, although Darth Vader gave the orders. The Baron noted that "an alien (such as Thrawn) in such a high position of command was very unusual, given the Empire's extreme xenophobia. Perhaps due to xenophobia or the maneuvering of Isard, the Imperial intelligence director, Thrawn went unrewarded after the successful ambush."

Thrawn would become involved in Imperial court politics, as Mara Jade would later reminisce; all thought that his exile was due to his political defeat by Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus. Actually, Palpatine and Thrawn together had planned his 'exile', with Palpatine quietly feeding him troops and ships to pacify the areas of the Unknown regions without anyone the wiser. After the Rebellion successfully dethroned the Empire at the Battle of Endor, Thrawn returned from the Unknown Regions. Thrawn assumed command of the Empire and took the Star Destroyer Chimaera as his command ship.

In the novel Outbound Flight by Timothy Zahn, the Chiss knew of the Yuuzhan Vong long before the Republic or Empire. It was in fact then-Commander Thrawn's superior officer, Chiss Admiral Ar'alani, who had engaged a scout group of the species. This first encounter was concluded with a Chiss victory against the force, but Admiral Ar'alani noted that they had fought with an impressive ferocity.
 * Yuuzhan Vong

During the Outbound Flight project, a Trade Federation task force dispatched by Darth Sidious to defeat Outbound Flight was intercepted and soundly defeated by Commander Thrawn. During the surrender of the remaining Republic forces, Thrawn was put in contact with Lord Sidious. Sidious had foreseen this new alien threat and saw it critical to prevent the large Jedi and Republic citizen populace from being captured and interrogated by the Vong. Such an occurrence would give the Vong a critical informational advantage over the Republic and the Chiss, perhaps throwing off chances of a successful defense against the alien species.

Thrawn was not oblivious to the threat this posed to his people. He required that Outbound Flight change course or be destroyed. Jedi Master Jorus C'baoth and the other Jedi aboard the Flight were oblivious to the threat known thus far only to the Chiss and the Sith. C'baoth at this time was also falling to the dark side, after assuming a dictatorial role over the Outbound Flight populace. He had become incredibly arrogant and was unable to see past his own pride and belief in his invincibility. C'baoth ignored Thrawn's peaceful request for them to simply leave the area and continue their journey on another course. And so Thrawn orchestrated Outbound Flight's defeat. This maintained the Chiss Ascendancy's protective isolation from both the Republic and Vong.

When Thrawn eventually returned to the Unknown Regions, having been made a Grand Admiral by Emperor Palpatine, he carved out a huge empire, going by the name Empire of the Hand. When Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker investigated Thrawn's personal fortress, they encountered the Imperial officer who had first brought Thrawn to the Empire - Admiral Voss Parck. Parck indicated that Thrawn's campaign against the Republic was not solely out of a personal desire to gain power, but to prepare the galaxy against a coming threat - likely the Vong. Later, after the rediscovery of the Outbound Flight remains, Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker speculated that part of the reason behind the Chiss desire for an excuse to wage war on the Vagaari was because the Vagaari had already made contact with the threat (probably the Yuuzhan Vong) and had allied with them.

Thrawn was considered a true warrior by those who served under him. If a battle Thrawn planned could not be won, Thrawn preferred not to waste troops and equipment in futile displays of power; he would withdraw and adjust his plans. He also encouraged Captain Gilad Pellaeon to voice his ideas, because, unlike many egotistical Imperial commanders, Thrawn could accept valid ideas even if they were not his own. Thrawn was not concerned with his own personal glory, only with winning the fight against the New Republic (which he refused to acknowledge as such, instead constantly referring to it as "the Rebellion").
 * Command style

Thrawn was more tolerant of the failures of those under his command than other Imperial officials, who were known for their lethal reaction to minor failures. Unlike Darth Vader in particular, Thrawn would not regularly terminate individuals under his command for "errors". Two examples of his command style involved tractor beam operators onboard his flagship Chimaera, in separate attempts to capture Luke Skywalker. In the first, tractor beam operator Cris Pieterson - an enlisted conscript - refused to accept responsibility for failing to capture Skywalker and referred Thrawn to his superior, Ensign Colclazure. In response, Thrawn had Pieterson executed while sparing the ensign, instructing him to train a replacement. Later, when Skywalker escaped a similar trap, an ensign named Mithel had tried an innovative solution in an attempt to capture him. Instead of having the man killed for failure, Thrawn recognized Mithel's initiative and promoted him to Lieutenant. This attitude further drove those that served him to both highly respect and fiercely stand by Thrawn.

Thrawn is known for a supremely unique command style. He would view the native art of a given species or planet to understand them better as a race or planet, and so too, gain insight into their military style. He believed the study of this art would give him an advantage in battle, since it provided him with information on the psyche of his opponents and informed him of their psychological blind spots. His immediate subordinate, Pellaeon, voices the opinion that Thrawn's analysis of art was merely a cover for his true military analyses, which he would want to keep secret to stymie enemy spies. One of Thrawn's notable victories was the capture of the food producing planet Ukio. The typical Imperial doctrine of a bombardment and siege would have been costly to both sides and left the planet in ruins. Thrawn determined that the defenders had a strong superstitious fear of the unknown and used cloaked vessels to frighten them into submission, forcing the submission of the planet with minimum casualties.

He was known as one of the most brilliant military commanders in the Star Wars universe and was superior to even geniuses such as General Garm Bel Iblis (who only later joined the New Republic due to personal issues with the Rebel Alliance's leader Mon Mothma) and Admiral Ackbar, who led the Rebellion to victory in many crucial battles.

While the Emperor and many high-ranking officials spent billions of credits on super weapons and grandiose warships (like the Death Star, Eye of Palpatine, and Super Star Destroyers Executor and Eclipse), that may have been powerful intimidating symbols of might but less practical for military purposes, Thrawn preferred to use existing technologies in novel ways in part due to his resource constraints. He turned medium-sized capital ships like Carrack cruisers and Victory-class Star Destroyers into formidable weapons, and he used Interdictor cruisers (whose gravity wells were originally intended to stop enemy ships from escaping to hyperspace) to vector in the timely arrival of his reinforcements (a tactic dubbed the "Thrawn Pincer").

Ironically, Thrawn was also personally responsible for one of the greatest setbacks to the Imperial cause. His ruthless persecution of smuggler Talon Karrde and estrangement of former Emperor's Hand Mara Jade led directly to her decision to aid the Rebel Alliance. Mara's support proved decisive in the campaign to destroy the Empire's cloning facilities at Mt. Tantiss: in the final confrontation with insane Jedi Master Joruus C'Baoth, she landed the killing blow.

It was later postulated that Thrawn did not support the Empire per se, but rather wanted to establish order in the known galaxy in preparation to combat as-yet unknown threats he had discovered during his time in the Outer Rim (probably early scouts of the Yuuzhan Vong).

For the record, this material was removed from the article here. Thanks— TAnthonyTalk 21:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Thrawn picture canon
The artists who did the cover for the upcoming Thrawn book posted the uncropped artwork. Should it be used as Thrawn's picture, or added alongside the Legends depiction of him?

https://www.behance.net/gallery/40849369/Star-Wars-Thrawn-(official)

ThanksTheDidact118 (talk) 06:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Yes I asked about that above but The Millionth One made a good point that the character's notability is tied to the EU and existing Legends images represent the character well (I did change the image in the article from what was there when we discussed it). Even if there was a reason to change it (which there really isn't), I think our "canon" options (the Rebels still and the book cover) are inferior.— TAnthonyTalk 14:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * I'm not particularly opposed to ever having a canon image, but I don't see any real immediate need to try and find one to illustrate Thrawn in canon. It'd be different if Thrawn had undergone some redesign, perhaps, whether he simply wore black or was now a yellow Thriss with no eyes, but Thrawn still looks moreorless like Thrawn. – The Millionth One (talk) (contribs) 15:12, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

Source for y'all
Interview with Filoni about bringing Thrawn into Rebels. --EEMIV (talk) 15:43, 25 September 2016 (UTC)

Main picture
Hey, just wondering bu wouldn't it be more advantageous to have the main picture within the infobox be his canonical appearance? There's a slight difference in his look from skin-town, actually having pupils now, and his skin colour is a slightly lighter shade of blue now. --Jsngrwd (talk) 01:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)


 * This has been discussed previously but the character is known more from Legends, and frankly the new CGI renderings are sort of inferior. The image should represent the character as a whole, and canon or not I don't think the Rebels representation necessarily does at this point.— TAnthonyTalk 04:50, 27 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Agreed. --EEMIV (talk) 10:52, 27 October 2016 (UTC)


 * How about his appearance on the cover of Zahn's new book, simply titled "Thrawn"? Here's the full picture without the text. --Jsngrwd (talk) 01:23, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Meh. Crystal Ball, etc. I suspect at some point this article's going to need to expand into the origin's the character's concept and creation, both initially (great source: 20th anniversary version of HttE with Zahn's commentary) and in its adaptation to Rebels. Certainly Filoni has or will discuss his look, movement, voice acting, etc., and some "initial" and "reimagined" imagery would surely pass WP:NFCC. Ahsoka Tano I think is a good example of how commentary on a character's development and maturation over (in-universe) time warrants inclusion of a couple of examples of non-free content. --EEMIV (talk) 23:47, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

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