Talk:Grand Central Terminal/Archive 2

GCT North
Hi Epicgenius and PRRfan, I think it's important to describe the individual tunnels as either north-south or east-west, which will be a lot clearer to readers who don't know how Manhattan's grid works. I also really wish we could put in a map, but you gander that our only map (one published evidently in an MTA pamphlet) is protected by copyright? In that case, could we work on one? Would it be beneficial to construct something to use mapframe? ɱ (talk) · vbm  · coi) 15:07, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Good point on north-south and east-west. (I guess we can use those cardinal directions as stand-ins for the more geographically precise north-northeast/south-southwest etc.?) And you're right about a map, the production of which, sadly, is beyond my ken. PRRfan (talk) 19:11, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Regarding the map, I can probably create the KML/JSON file for it. I'll need a few days since I have to get to class now, but will probably be able to do it over the weekend. epicgenius (talk) 19:54, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks Epicgenius, that's one of few things I have no clue on but really want to learn to do. PRRfan - yeah pretty much every NYC wiki article seems to just say n, s, w, e; it'd be a lot to explain the difference in every single last article, I guess they just leave that to the Manhattan article, etc. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 21:09, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, I've created a JSON map for testing purposes: epicgenius (talk) 21:34, 6 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Very cool. Not sure why I can't get it blue all the way across. Will add some more points/details later... ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 21:58, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Because the black passage is actually "L" shaped, and the blue passage only connects the black and green passages. I fixed it now. epicgenius (talk) 22:16, 6 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Cool. I added entrances based on the map, though it makes it look like the 45th street passage is too short? Also, how do I make these pushpin icons smaller and with visible labels? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 05:39, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * (1) I moved the coordinate of the western terminus of the 45th Street segment. So it should be fine. (2) Try adding "marker-size":"small" right after "name": "foo" in the properties bracket, but you need a comma before "marker-size" (3) I'm certain that the labels can't be added in the mapbox directly. However, you can set each coordinate to have point, point, etc, then put coordinate and set marker3 to 3. But there will have to be a note in the caption. Also, I don't know what will happen with the size function if you do this. epicgenius (talk) 14:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks. However I already tried the simpler |type2=point|coord2=40.75454°N, -73.97757°W for these points and it won't display; I believe we either have to use that system or the raw code, I don't think they'll work together... ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I added it here because it's 90% there at least. I still think it needs labels, even if they have to be like the one at Rockwood Hall, only visible if you click on the map. Also, can you please add a simple box to represent Grand Central's station building? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Impressive work, folks. PRRfan (talk) 15:27, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 15:47, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Epicgenius, I think you should make the box for GCT half as big; the station house (not including the train shed/tracks) only spans from 42nd to about halfway between 43rd and 44th, not 45th. Is that okay? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 21:46, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * So do you know how/if there's any way to make the clickable labels on the points like the second map at Briarcliff Manor Public Library? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Something like this? epicgenius (talk) 00:45, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Not exactly; I don't think the numbers help unless we can make them 45, 46W 46E, 47, 48... I meant when you click on the library map and click on the points, there is room for a label and optional image. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:53, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

What do we think about replacing the color labels ("in orange") with a line segment in the appropriate color? PRRfan (talk) 03:46, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Can we make them some circles perhaps? The lines are very thin. They're visible on my phone, but not really at all on my desktop. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Another option: color the legend text. PRRfan (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Or we can just use colorboxes, like the infobox does. Coloring the text leads to issues for some people. epicgenius (talk) 18:00, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The colorboxes look really good on the desktop view, but pretty bad on mobile. I think the circular icons display the most professionally and clearly on Mobile and Desktop. Check it out on both. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 18:33, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * We might not be seeing the same thing in that case. I tested on mobile view using Samsung Galaxy S5, Google Pixel 2 (regular and XL), and iPhone X options in Google Chrome, as well as on actual mobile devices. The only thing I see is that the lines (in the captions) are centered. But this can be easily fixed. epicgenius (talk) 23:59, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I suppose most of it relates to the fact that it's centered. Can you fix it? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 01:19, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * OK, let me test it out. epicgenius (talk) 01:51, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Aw man, it didn't work! epicgenius (talk) 01:52, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean, that works to left-align, but there's a lot of spacing and the font size is even smaller. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 02:13, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * What about this (second row, third from left)? epicgenius (talk) 15:50, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * It still seemingly has an entire line between each existing line of text, not sure why... Can you try making the colorboxes smaller and see if that helps? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:04, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Hmm, it's still doing it... ɱ (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:06, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think it's fixed now. I think it's a problem with tl:unbulleted list giving it spacing. ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:10, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * colorbull looks better on mobile; now colorbox displays them too close together! ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 16:12, 13 December 2018 (UTC)
 * are there any objections to implementing the second row, third from left map, which uses colorbull? ɱ  (talk) · vbm  · coi) 19:51, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Nope, sounds great! PRRfan (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Potentially useful
See this link, definitely dispels some ideas I've seen that the depot/station were smaller than the terminal... ɱ (talk) · vbm  · coi) 05:13, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit regarding largest train station in country
I have a couple issues with this recent edit.
 * First, if Kansas City Union Station is the second largest in the country, then why is it being mentioned here, and not at KC Union Station's article? We don't usually list runner-ups to superlatives. For instance, since GCT is the third busiest station in North America, we don't mention the fourth or fifth busiest stations. Since GCT is the world's largest station by number of platforms, we don't mention the second largest station.
 * Second, the sources being combined don't actually mention that GCT is the largest station in the US, followed by KC Union Station (a violation of WP:SYNTH). Ref 9 says that KC Union is the second largest station in the US, but doesn't mention what the largest station is. And ref 8 doesn't say anything about being the largest station in the US, but rather, that it was the largest in the world upon its completion.
 * Third, blogs aren't reliable sources, per WP:RS, and ref 8 is a blog. In any case, ref 8 cites its info from more reputable sources, so I replaced Ref 8 with the Roberts NY Times ref from 2013.
 * Not really an issue but if this info is in the lead, it should be in the body as well.

While I do think the edit is in good faith, these are just a few issues that I think need to be fleshed out. epicgenius (talk) 04:25, 30 December 2018 (UTC)


 * You're right. It's possible many sources only rate based on number of platforms because square footage is so iffy. Do we count train sheds or rail yards? Do we count connecting passageways in Grand Central, even if those passageways are wholly other buildings (like Grand Central Market)? Do we count office buildings or baggage buildings? Do we count former stations, or former records? With all of these things considered, there are many contenders, especially Michigan Central Station or 30th Street Station each with about half a million square feet, or the old Penn Station, which took up about two city blocks... ɱ  (talk) 16:32, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Split of history section
I've now split the history section to History of Grand Central Terminal, which is an article now. Please feel free to make improvements there. epicgenius (talk) 18:08, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Got it, thanks — and, incidentally, kudos to you and Ɱ and the others who are doing such impressive heavy lifting on this topic. PRRfan (talk) 20:09, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated for creating the spinoff article and history summary. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:46, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I will look through the history section when I have a chance. I have spent my day scanning a checked out report on the planned NE Bronx Subway extension from Lehman. I took many pictures of NYCT committee reports from 1994-95 yesterday and will add information from those. When do you plan on nominating this article? Thanks for your work.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 22:52, 10 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I don't know. Maybe soon, within a few weeks. I'm pretty busy with work, but I will check to see if we're missing anything from the main GCT article. epicgenius (talk) 02:09, 11 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I just did a quick reference check. No material is un-cited. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 05:37, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

Multiple image


I think multiple image looks awkward if you stack another image above/below the multiple-image template and they aren't the same width. I didn't realize that I messed up with the multiple image template until later.

Something like the example at right may work.

To an extent, I also disagree that multiple image templates can only be used for highlighting different aspects of the same thing. If the two images are vastly different widths (e.g. one is a portrait, another is a landscape) and are in the same section, then I definitely think that they could go into a multiple-image template. For instance, the template to the right shows two images in the "Decline" section. Another example is File:GCT_Dec_4,_2018_(45452001254).jpg and File:Grand Central Terminal - Sectional View 1939.jpg (which you just removed). They both show passenger improvements, it's just one is a picture and the other is a rendering/ epicgenius (talk) 17:07, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * We definitely hold different opinions on formatting images. I never find images to look awkward at different widths or lengths; different images from different cameras or cropped differently will have different proportions. We should typically use the default sizes for images, so images displayed under tl:multiple image should still be approximately 220px each. I also strongly believe tl:multiple image should only be used for a set of very closely related images, like the interior and exterior of the market; it has options for a combined header and/or footer for that reason. It's not meant to be used as a tool for formatting less-related images to better-fit. Especially the balcony and 1968 Concourse photo have no theme joining them, and the whispering gallery and cutaway have very little, and display just fine separately; there's tons of room in that section anyhow. Lmk what you think. ɱ  (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I like how it displays now on the desktop, will check a laptop/phone too. ɱ  (talk) 17:21, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, if we bring up the VE citation bug, we might also want to bring up to people that tl:multiple image displays badly on mobile, so the whole "(left)" and "(right)" thing (for example on the info booth photos) doesn't work, the images stack on top of each other instead! ɱ  (talk) 17:22, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * For image sizes, then, I guess we can move images around if they aren't related. They don't have to be right next to each other, or on top or below.I knew that the multiple image templates stacked vertically on mobile displays. That's a feature, not a bug, caused by the width of the phone. Otherwise the images would look really small. epicgenius (talk) 18:13, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Well there should/could be a way for mobile users to slide the photos a little to see everything, or maybe some template that changes "left" and "right" to "top" and "bottom" for mobile mode? ɱ  (talk) 18:15, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly sure. I think something like that would use a mobile CSS class. But I've never actually tried forcing a caption to display based on whether it was a mobile device or not. However, having something like that would probably have large implications. For instance, the text could be changed so mobile users wouldn't be able to see things that desktop users can see.You could probably give it a try and ask at Template talk:Multiple image. epicgenius (talk) 18:43, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Campbell...bar?
Re this edit, you're right about "ringed with" so thanks for reverting that, but I'm pretty sure the bar formerly known as the Campbell Apartment is now just "The Campbell". PRRfan (talk) 04:25, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * No problem. The distinction between areas is mentioned in the second paragraph here, as well as the third para of the link you provided and a few other places.
 * Also btw, I originally had the spiral staircase caption similar to your version, but I had changed it after some consideration, because even though your/my old wording is more concise, it talks about the staircase first (which is not present in either photo), which is pretty awkward; I think it's worth it to be a little more lengthy and first introduce the images' subjects before going into that detail. Also the photos are there for much more than talking about the staircase! How it is now, it appears to focus solely on teaching the reader about the staircases, not the overall significance of those booths, which is pretty huge for the Main Concourse booth. We could even leave that staircase part out, just leaving its existing mention in the prose.
 * Sure, that makes sense. PRRfan (talk) 14:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your help with this, and with all the great copyediting so far! ɱ  (talk) 05:17, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Just happy to help; you and are doing great work. PRRfan (talk) 14:06, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

52 mph?
I deleted this from the "Track improvements" section: "New track infrastructure allowed maximum train speeds of 52 miles per hour (84 km/h)"; it's unsupported by the cite, and there's no way any train moving 52 mph would have been allowed within miles of the station. PRRfan (talk) 08:21, 16 January 2019 (UTC)
 * This is a good explanation of speed limits in Manhattan for trains. The source is not citable, but it does say that a speed limit of 52 mph is not possible in Manhattan. PointsofNoReturn (talk) 04:06, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Expansion for ESA
As you all know, a key component of East Side Access is the expansion of the station for the LIRR. I do not think that the plan is adequately covered in the article. For instance, there will be at least two new street entrances–at Park Avenue and 47th Street, and Madison Avenue and 48th Street, and there will be a connection to the 47th Street Cross-passageway. and Any thoughts?--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 18:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, ESA doesn't have many third-party sources like newspapers reporting on the intricacies of Grand Central's changes/new concourse, etc.? I'm hesitant to have a section covering all of the new planned areas, passages, entrances, connections, etc. just based on internal MTA docs and maps, and some of these plans could change, especially if this project gets further drawn out. I think the renovation section covers enough of the relevant details, and the article on ESA should cover more. ɱ  (talk) 18:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , Well, I think the Trains article or MTA docs would be a good place to start. It isn't in the ESA article because that's supposed to be a quick overview, and as far as I'm concerned, the GCT article should be where all the GCT entrance improvements are detailed. epicgenius (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I dunno, I think the Description section of the ESA article should have a subsection detailing the new concourses/station/pedestrian tunnels, separate from the details on the tracks/train tunnels they're installing. ɱ  (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If it will be part of the station, why should it be separate? Here is another link.
 * I added some info to the ESA page. epicgenius (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Proposed change
What do y'all think about this: User:Ɱ/sandbox? My thoughts: I think it barely makes the infobox longer, moves the exterior photo out of that random spot and into a spot worthy of its importance, and shows the train shed, as well as the iconic concourse, ceiling, clock. It should free up room in the article for other photos; we have plenty of other important ones that could replace these in the article body. I wish Glory of Commerce would fit, but most Commons images of it are low-res, low-quality or very square, not fitting into this montage very well. Any thoughts? ɱ (talk) 18:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think the photo montage looks good. The platforms are definitely important, even though they aren't the first thing most people associate with GCT, because the platforms are the main part of the terminal. epicgenius (talk) 21:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay let's do it. ɱ  (talk) 04:57, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for File:Grand Central c 1968.jpg
File:Grand Central c 1968.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a non-free use rationale. Using one of the templates at Non-free use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

-- Marchjuly (talk) 00:52, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Figured something like this might come up! Will address tomorrow or the next day when I'm back . ɱ  (talk) 01:04, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Done. ɱ  (talk) 02:21, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Depth of M42
We should consider changing M42's depth:

190 ft:
 * https://newyork.cbslocal.com/guide/inaccessible-new-york-behind-the-scenes-at-grand-central-terminal/
 * https://penneyvanderbilt.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/inaccessible-new-york-behind-the-scenes-at-grand-central-terminal-cbs-new-york/

109 ft:
 * https://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/01/man-and-machine-both-beautiful-meet-at-grand-central/?mtrref=undefined
 * https://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-xpm-2008-03-03-0803020167-story.html

105 ft:
 * https://books.google.com/books?id=EpdwcewZ2rgC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=dynamo&f=false

10 stories:
 * https://interestingengineering.com/9-secret-spaces-hidden-under-our-cities (video)

9 flights/13 stories:
 * https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/in-24-hours-new-york-train-track/index.html
 * https://www.news.com.au/travel/world-travel/north-america/death-fame-and-fear-dark-world-under-new-york-streets/news-story/0f45cd9fcf8405edc22e93339c20614d

Other:
 * "Brucker said railroad experts place the Dynamo Room 109 feet below the lower concourse, or nearly 200 feet below street level. Frank J. Prial, Jr., an architect with Beyer Blinder Belle, the firm responsible for Grand Central's recent restoration, insists it's not quite so deep. Both agree, however, that before the basement of the World Trade Center was excavated, this spot claimed distinction as the deepest rock cut in Manhattan." (https://web.archive.org/web/20041205052533/http://www.thejournalnews.com/newsroom/090901/09secrets.html)

I think I've spotted other claims too; we should probably say sources conflict. Bruckner is not known to have been the most reliable source. ɱ (talk) 18:01, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Though I don't think there's a definite depth, I'm pretty sure 190 is a typo. All of the other sources give figures around the neighborhood of 109 feet (i.e. 105 feet or 10-13 stories). The lower concourse is definitely not 91 feet under street level, unless street level is the top of the Park Avenue Viaduct. epicgenius (talk) 00:52, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * True, and that further shows Bruckner as an unreliable source. Can we change it to approximately 109 feet or 10-13 stories (depending on the source)? or would you prefer just being bold and changing it to 109? ɱ  (talk) 01:49, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added the clarifying notes. I didn't say explicitly that 190 feet is an outlier, because that would have been synthesis, but it is in a hidden comment. epicgenius (talk) 14:12, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Looks good, thanks. ɱ  (talk) 16:56, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

80,000 square feet
Why do you think so many sources call the Main Concourse 80,000 square feet? It's on page 92 of Gateway to a Million Lives, it's on this thing, page 12 of this, here, and here. This can't be right, can it... ɱ (talk) 20:50, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Multiple images for the departure boards
I think we should probably put the multiple image template for the departure boards on two lines, like this. Currently the images are too small with a total image width of 520. The problem is that not all of these images are the same size, though. epicgenius (talk) 17:08, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm increasingly fed up with the multiple images template. The live version actually already displays it how you want it on mobile, though the footer caption then would need to be altered. Yet your version's mobile view shows four images in one column, again with a misleading caption. I agree that yours is slightly better for the desktop view, but it seems worse for mobile. We need fixes. ɱ  (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * All right. How about something like the below? It preserves the current layout but makes the images larger. Not sure what to do with the text "left to right", though. epicgenius (talk) 21:19, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

The terminal's primary departure board is located on the south side of the concourse, installed directly atop the two sets of ticket windows. The board, colloquially known as the "Big Board", shows the track and status of arriving and departing trains.

There have been five departure boards used over the terminal's history: the 1913–1967 chalkboard, the 1967–1985 Solari board, the 1985–1996 Omega Board, the 1996–2019 LCD board, and the 2019 fully digital display.


 * Do you know of any way to have a template that will display different things, whether viewed on mobile or desktop? If not, do you know of anyone capable perhaps of creating something like that? ɱ  (talk) 21:23, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 * In any case, the increased size makes it possible to drop the whole left-right thing, so we should be good now. ɱ  (talk) 21:33, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

Use of the words "currently", "now", "today", etc
I don't think we should use these words: "currently", "now", "today". Per MOS:DATED they are likely to become outdated, especially if there's no date attached to the sentences where these words are used. Also, if a statement is currently true, the word "currently" is not necessary in many cases. E.g. The space is currently occupied by a conductor lounge and a smaller sports facility with a single tennis court. epicgenius (talk) 23:20, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * MOS:DATED is written to avoid outdated statements in most articles, with little editor traffic and no dedicated article writers. This article has at least four or five. As a history writer, it's important to differentiate past from present. A sentence like this : "The room's benches were previously located in the former waiting room, Vanderbilt Hall." isn't right to me, because the waiting room was never called Vanderbilt Hall when it was a waiting room. It's simple and easy to use "waiting room, now Vanderbilt Hall", a name which I don't think will change in the next century.
 * As well, a statement like "Only Tracks 102–112 and 114–115 are used for passenger service." does not tell as much as "Today, only Tracks 102–112 and 114–115 are used for passenger service." We don't know when it changed, but the first statement doesn't indicate that it ever changed, while the second does. ɱ  (talk) 01:07, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * , I see what you mean. However, some editor who is not aware of this may put up tags such as when? even though the information is evidently correct today (as someone visiting GCT itself may observe). I also agree with your comments about the nuances of the word "today" in certain contexts. This may also come up at FAC. I think there should be a compromise somewhere, but don't know what that might be. epicgenius (talk) 04:06, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * History is never without many holes, and even though when tags may seem appropriate, an answer can't always be found. It took me ages to even find most of the dates present in the article right now, and even then we've had to decide between multiple stated figures and dates. Some may think that this can never be an FA with such gaps in knowledge, but until/unless time machines are invented, those gaps will exist in all histories of the terminal. ɱ  (talk) 04:34, 6 September 2019 (UTC)

Purchased?
As a continuation of this discussion, I haven't found any government or MTA pages stating the current owner is anything except Midtown TDR/Trackage Ventures. The only sources really mentioning the purchase are news from around the time of the deal (Nov. 13-16, 2018), almost a year ago, most without any update as to if the deal went through. I think some journalists took the news too far to say that it has been finalized, because I can't find anything in MTA meeting pages, reputable newspapers, or anywhere else.
 * this NYC zoning map shows Midtown Trackage Ventures as the owner
 * this NYC list of documents, including property purchases, doesn't include anything from that date or in the stated dollar amount. ɱ  (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Has Grand Central been purchased?
Has the deal gone through? It's very tough to ascertain this. There hasn't been an MTA press release, or new or updated article from the New York Times or any other major news source verifying the purchase went through. Most sources about the matter date to Nov. 13 or 14, before the final board vote. These sources from November 16 seem to say that the purchase did take place: Real Estate Weekly, National Real Estate Investor, Commercial Property Investor, Bloomberg, 6sqft. They seem to state it as hard fact that it went through, though there's no evidence or details submitted, and I've really only ever heard of one or two of those news sources before. And it doesn't seem there's been any press on this since November 16. Can anyone find more evidence for this? ɱ (talk) 00:42, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , Well, it was approved and signed-off upon, according to page 73 of the MTA MNRR board meeting document from Nov 2018. Whether the MTA is now in possession of Grand Central is a different question. epicgenius (talk) 02:09, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, I see that, but I don't think that makes it more concrete that it was sold. I think I've seen a dozen acquisitions approved in the past few months by company boards that end up falling through or getting blocked in courts... ɱ  (talk) 02:41, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * , Yeah, that's why I said it was a different question of whether the MTA now owns GCT. I haven't heard anything to that effect. Maybe would know. epicgenius (talk) 14:20, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This page, which might be outdated, does not show that the MTA now owns GCT. I will see if I can find anything.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 16:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you are right, Midtown Trackage Ventures LLC still owns GCT, building-block-lot number #01280-0001. I looked up the report PropertyShark. However, according to ACRIS, inputing that BBL number gives a document that shows the MTA has waived air rights. I will need to look later for a document that shows whether ownership has been transferred. epicgenius (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I think that document only applies to 416 Lexington Avenue (current Grand Central Market). ɱ  (talk) 18:36, 22 September 2019 (UTC)

Number of platforms
I just removed a citation-needed tag for the number of platforms.
 * First, GCT holds the world record for the number of platforms and it is sourced in the article. Per WP:CITELEAD, citations are not needed in the lead for statements which are sourced in the article.
 * Second, Shinjuku Station only has 35 platforms, not 53. This would put Shinjuku behind GCT for number of platforms, as GCT has 44 platforms. If we're counting platforms within connected stations, GCT would have 10 subway platforms as well, for a total of 54 platforms. But we're not counting platforms within connected stations. epicgenius (talk) 23:44, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Roberts references
There are two Roberts (2013) references in use: the book, and the New York Times article. It's not clear which is meant to be which in the text, and it's causing this article to get listed in Category:Harv and Sfn template errors. Mackensen (talk) 14:28, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Possibly add at some point
"Railroad Exposition" or "Transportation Exposition" for the New York Central system hosted on the east balcony of the main concourse, c. 1923-1929, at least.

-- ɱ (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/7590709/the-new-york-age/
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-1127.pdf
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-0629.pdf
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Popular_Science_Monthly/6fhRAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Railroad%20Exposition%22%20grand%20central
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bulletin/f85GAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=grand%20central%20terminal%20balcony
 * File:Grand Central rays of sunlight.jpg
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Grand_Central_Terminal/GnKxDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Transportation+Exposition%22+grand+central&pg=PT697&printsec=frontcover

Metro–North track numbering
There are some contradictions in the layout of yard/storage tracks 51–65. The article says "track numbers 57, 58, and 62 do not exist". The "Grand Central track map" diagram (Template:GCT track map, mostly by User:Epicgenius) instead is missing tracks 54, 58, and 62. The diagram cites Operations-Metro-North-Railroad-Track-Charts.pdf from 2015, where the analogous diagram on page 89 (page number 84 of the contained document) is missing 54, 57, 58, and 62. There are likewise inconsistencies for the lower level. What is the original and/or current facts? DMacks (talk) 11:44, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * This was a concern at the GA review; when it was explained to me there seemed no simpler way of expressing it. Kingsif (talk) 12:40, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , thanks for the ping. This is interesting, because the Metro North Railroad operation diagram also does not show track 61, which does exist. In fact, that diagram only shows 10 tracks existing, while all the other diagrams I've seen show 12 tracks. However, the GCT track map does appear to be inaccurate, so I changed the track map to reflect what's currently in the text. This information is sourced to "Green, Richard E. (2009). Metro-North Railroad Track Map." which is not available freely, but which is excerpted in this article. Epicgenius (talk) 17:05, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Article size
I have reverted an anonymous editor's addition of a too long tag from this page. The editor claimed in their edit summary that the page does not load on mobile browsers - however, this is not a consideration that Wikipedia should use, because readers have varying data download and upload speeds. The layout is not too dense to navigate, nor does this exceed the readable prose size guideline outlined in Article size.

However, I do think this might be getting a bit long, at 81 kilobytes of readable prose size. To that extent, I would support splitting some parts of the article further. We already have articles about the terminal's history and art, as well as pages about various aspects of the terminal such as M42 (sub-basement), Campbell Apartment, and Grand Central LIRR terminal. I think we may need to consider splitting some more aspects of this page, such as popular culture appearances and Terminal City, and then summarizing them here. Epicgenius (talk) 04:04, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * Yeah, agreed. I would like to split off architecture/interior, some of the most substantial areas, but I'm not sure how to arrange it all. Are there precedents to look at? I hadn't found any, but will check again. ɱ  (talk) 04:50, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , I suggest we can start by reducing the amount of repetitiveness. For example, we have two interior sections right now: the main section about interior spaces, and the subsection of Architecture. Some of the rooms may be notable in themselves, too. Epicgenius (talk) 05:48, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * That was actually incredibly deliberate! There's no good way to mash together talking about the general and specific architectural details while also describing the layout, functions, and histories of the interior spaces. I'd much rather move content and summarize, and then perhaps repetition could be cut down. ɱ  (talk) 11:15, 22 December 2020 (UTC)


 * There's also virtually no content overlap, it just allows for readable and navigable sections for readers who are either interested in learning about the building's architecture, or about the history and attributes of its interior spaces. ɱ  (talk) 11:20, 22 December 2020 (UTC)
 * , I see. I was a little confused at the interior part, but I do agree we can move content about places such as the Main Concourse. Epicgenius (talk) 17:07, 22 December 2020 (UTC)

Scaffolding
Question for or, I just saw all the scaffolding in GCT on this livestream, anything notable going on with that?  Cards   84664   19:58, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * My understanding is they're just dealing with a leak in the roof that developed over the last couple of years, taking advantage of the low current foot traffic. oknazevad (talk) 20:51, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * One of the latest of the MTA's Mileposts mentioned some cleaning; I've assumed it was that. Have not seen anything more recent. ɱ  (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Topics to write about

 * the Information Bureau / Q Telegraph Office
 * the Transportation Exposition
 * Also articles for Grand Central Depot, Grand Central Station

Transportation Exposition
"Railroad Exposition" or "Transportation Exposition" or "Permanent Exhibit" for the New York Central system hosted on the east balcony of the main concourse, 1923/24-1930, at least.

-- ɱ (talk) 18:48, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-0424.pdf
 * https://www.newspapers.com/clip/7590709/the-new-york-age/
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-1127.pdf
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-0530.pdf
 * http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/magazine/images/magazine-0629.pdf
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Popular_Science_Monthly/6fhRAQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=%22Railroad%20Exposition%22%20grand%20central
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Bulletin/f85GAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=grand%20central%20terminal%20balcony
 * File:Grand Central rays of sunlight.jpg
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Grand_Central_Terminal/GnKxDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=%22Transportation+Exposition%22+grand+central&pg=PT697&printsec=frontcover

To be expanded... -- ɱ (talk) 19:37, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Information booth clock
Glass clock faces restored by Flickinger Glassworks:
 * http://www.laborarts.org/exhibits/buildingtrades/detail.cfm?id=18
 * https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/garden/03glass.html?searchResultPosition=1
 * https://vimeo.com/386628181
 * https://thebridgebk.com/made-in-brooklyn-this-tour-guide-shows-you-how-its-done/

-- ɱ (talk) 17:19, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Roosevelt Hotel
Wasn’t there an underground walkway connecting Grand Central directly to this hotel at 45 45th st.? If so, it would be worth a mention, along with an explanation of how this came to be. 2A00:23C7:E287:1900:A827:D4A9:D8C2:7B3F (talk) 12:04, 7 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Grand Central Terminal does or has had innumerous entries within buildings or to random street corners. These sometimes change, and there are likely many unknown, not open to the public. It's tough to include one and somehow attempt to be comprehensive with the rest. ɱ  (talk) 14:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually this one is well documented and was a major entry point for passengers coming from offices to the north much as the Grand Central North passageways do now. It was also a significant selling point for the hotel itself. This one can and should be mentioned at least. oknazevad (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of the documentation, and don't really agree in general, but would be interested to see citations that it was as major as "much as the Grand Central North passageways" and a "significant selling point for the hotel". ɱ  (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
 * All connections/entrances are worth noting-maybe not necessarily in detail. If there is information on the construction/closure of these entrances, it should be included.--Kew Gardens 613 (talk) 12:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Newish sources that could be helpful
-- ɱ (talk) 15:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)
 * https://untappedcities.com/2021/08/30/secret-tunnels-grand-central-terminal/5/?displayall=true
 * https://gothamist.com/arts-entertainment/diagram-details-how-grand-central-terminal-was-an-immensely-complicated-engineering-project

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Dianehyi, Emj1123. Peer reviewers: Khan.saqib01, Sarah Alers.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy's involvement in preserving Grand Central
Fellow Wikipedians, I was surprised to see no mention of J. Kennedy Onassis's major role in preserving GCT, it is described in her article which links here. I can add, but wonder if there was a reason that was omitted. This would probably go in the Decline section. Comments? Fothergilla (talk) 12:06, 11 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for the input. I did quite a lot of research on this topic for the development of this article, and some sub-articles. I don't recall Kennedy being given as much prominence in scholarly sources as one might think. She was a public figure, someone who attracted public attention to the issue, but potentially nothing more. She is mentioned at the History of Grand Central Terminal article, and quoted. If you feel more should be added, please propose something!
 * Best, ɱ  (talk) 16:52, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Technically
Hi : perhaps you think I'm using "technically" in the colloquial wishy-washy way of an insecure, self-inserting pedant, but I'm actually using it in the very literal way: this is how the technical definition reads, despite a common name that is used otherwise. Perhaps there is some other phrase or word you can suggest that tells the audience that "Grand Central Station" is absolutely the common name for this place, despite "Grand Central Terminal" more precisely aligning to the niche jargon used narrowly within the field of rail transport, without you thinking that I'm simply failing to be "professional". Wolfdog (talk) 17:46, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I think the word is unnecessary myself. The first paragraph explains the origin of the name; the reader is left in no doubt that "Grand Central Station" is the common and colloquial name for Grand Central Terminal. Mackensen (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Agreed. I'm not free to look into rewriting this right now. For the record, it's seen enough eyes and countless hours of a team in researching and writing, and nobody else has found this name issue unclear and made that known. ɱ  (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * Alright, that's fine. Just a simple word or two is what I'd requested -- not a whole project. Wolfdog (talk) 22:45, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Saving a 'bookmark'
I'm saving this 'bookmark' here: Archives Center, National Museum of American History: Guide to the Grand Central Terminal Collection

At some point, I or another researcher should look at the files in this collection, it's probably one of the most thorough, and likely has answers to some still-outstanding questions. ɱ (talk) 20:28, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Great image archives
Though not great enough, there aren't many copyright-free-stated images: -- ɱ (talk) 21:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
 * JSTOR
 * Avery Library
 * MCNY
 * NYC Municipal Archives
 * NYPL
 * LOC

Sources/free images

 * https://archive.org/details/sim_electrical-world_1912-12-21_60_25/page/1308/mode/2up?q=%22grand+central%22
 * https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.32106005425688&view=1up&seq=935&q1=grand%20central
 * https://archive.org/details/sim_munseys-magazine_1911-04_45_1/page/26/mode/2up?q=grand+central
 * https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1912-12-07_107_23/page/n13/mode/2up
 * https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1911-06-17_104_24/page/n11/mode/2up?q=%22grand+central%22
 * https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1903-01-17_88_3/page/38/mode/2up?q=%22grand+central%22
 * https://archive.org/details/sim_scientific-american_1918-11-09_119_19/page/378/mode/2up?q=%22grand+central%22
 * https://www.newspapers.com/image/20454557/?terms=%22grand%20central%20station%22%20mercury%20%22clock%22%20-%22o%27clock%22
 * https://www.newspapers.com/image/369036839/?terms=%22grand%20central%20station%22%20mercury%20%22clock%22%20-%22o%27clock%22&match=1
 * https://www.newspapers.com/image/201704513/?terms=%20%22clock%22&match=1
 * pp 29-40
 * https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015084756579&view=1up&seq=1051&q1=grand%20central

-- ɱ (talk) 01:39, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
 * https://www.jstor.org/stable/40100842?seq=2
 * https://usmodernist.org/AF/AF-1968-01-02.pdf