Talk:Grand Mufti/Archive 1

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'''documented truth:

Fawzi al-kutub was a bomb maker who helped the arabs in 47-48. He learned his skills as an ss officer with the germans, there is so much revisionism by palestinian sympathizers to demonize israeli jews and their supporters once has to wonder is this projection. this could be a whole new area of study.

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Wow! Wonderful addition, Alberuni! BTW, where did you get this list? If it is from another source we can reach over the web, it should be an "External Link". If it is a book or journal, it should be listed as a "Reference".--iFaqeer 18:37, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your kind words. I couldn't find a directory or single source listing the names of current Grand Muftis. I compiled the list myself from multiple online searches. Alberuni 18:57, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Wow! In that case, please accept an Award of Thanks. [[Image:WikiThanks.png]]--iFaqeer 19:02, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Al-Husayni
Shouldn't the material about Shaikh Al-Husayni be removed and just replaced with a link to Amin al-Husayni?--iFaqeer 19:11, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * Also, was he officially a Grand Mufti? The article says not.--iFaqeer 19:14, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * I agree with replacing this section with a link. Perhaps the confusion about his title stems from the fact that he was appointed by non-Muslim colonial administration rather than by the ulema?Alberuni 19:19, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm. Yeah. Maybe. I have never understood the "Grand Mufti" system. Also, the article about him seems totally fixated on his support/work with the Nazis....--iFaqeer 19:26, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * Vilifying Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims as "Nazi" or "Nazi-sympathizers" is useful Zionist propaganda because it helps justify the occupation of Palestinian land and oppression of Palestinian people as a form of Holocaust compensation/retribution against the Nazis. Have you seen [this]? Of course, the situation is much more complex. Many Zionists and Jews aided the Nazis. Many Muslims aided the Allies. The Nazi ideology had no place for Arabs or Jews. Many Arabs suffering under British colonial occupation viewed the Germans as potential liberators. Zionist militant groups seeking to establish a Jewish state in Palestine attacked and killed British colonial administrators. Etc etc etc. Very tough to maintain a NPOV on this subject.


 * Well, that's the whole purpose of the Wikipedia, no? To let the community find a balance. I have my own views on a topic like this, but the best way to counter propaganda is to provide feedback that is factual, objective and can't be denied. And yes, it's tough.--iFaqeer 20:26, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Fatwas are never binding
Fatwa 2nd and third paragraphs: Contrary to what is believed by many non-Muslims, and even by the majority of Muslims, a fatwa is not binding on all persons professing the Muslim faith. The only ones who are obliged to obey any specific fatwa are the mufti who issued it and his followers.


 * (I am Muslim and Sunni and if I don't like the opinion of a Mufti I can ask another)

The Sheikh of Al-Azhar University in Cairo, Muhammad Sayid Tantawy, who is the leading religious authority in the Sunni Muslim establishment in Egypt, said the following about Fatwas issued by himself or the entire Al-Azhar University:

"Fatwas issued by Al-Azhar are not binding; individuals are free to accept them or not. It is the right of Muslims in France who object to the bill (banning the veil) to bring it up to the legislative and judicial authorities. If the judiciary decides in favor of the government because the country is secular, they would be considered to be Muslim individuals acting under compelling circumstances." [1] --The Brain 16:10, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Unnecessary referral
What is the point of the point of the referral to Amin al-Husayni at the top? It's not as if the term "Grand Mufti" somehow may specifically mean Amin al-Husayni; Grand Mufti can mean any hundreds of Grand Muftis and Amin al-Husayni is by no means the most famous Grand Mufti ever, so no-one would type in "Grand Mufti" intending to find an article about Amin al-Husayni in particular. And by putting the example of this Grand Mufti in particular and describing his supposed Nazi collaboration as the first sentence in the article seems to me to be maligning the respected institution of the Grand Mufti. I therefore see the link as irrelevant, pointless and of malicious intent, and as such have removed it. It's like putting a link to Reverend Al Sharpton or Reverend Wesley Swift at the top of the reverend article, which is outright ridiculous! Tanzeel 22:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

point he is the most famous "grand Mufti" known by the term "grand Mufti" more than any other Mufti.
 * see http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22grand+Mufti%22 Zeq 02:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Tanzeel, I agree that it does not make sense. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 07:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Kim, This is a disambiguation link. The term "grand Mufti" in many places refer sepcifically tio Amin Huseni. See above google link. Zeq 07:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * So, does that mean that that has to be spelled out in the disambig link? And what sources do you have that claim that grand Mufti is used as a term for this person specific? -- Kim van der Linde at venus 08:02, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you looked it up on google ? The term Grand Mufti is usually used for the most famous person ever to hold this title: Amin al-Husayni. Just look it up. Zeq 08:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * What is so difficult in providing the link and a solid source. I did a search and come to a different conclusion. Besides that, I moved the article back, as it is not only about the title, but also contains a list of the current people holding that title, so the new title was confusing. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 14:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I created a new section providing a link to him. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 15:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, I have today leared of yet another article on wikipedia: argumentum ad google. That was used as an excuse to move Deir Yassin Massacre (gives about 31 500 hits) to Battle of Deir Yassin (gives about 92 hits). Zeq, I now await you moving Battle of Deir Yassin back to Deir Yassin Massacre. Surely, you don´t support any double standards? ;-D Regards, Huldra 09:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I just tried to move it, indeed because this (massacre) is the name the incident is known for but I got this error message: "The page could not be moved: a page of that name already exists, or the name you have chosen is not valid. Please choose another name, or use Requested moves to ask an administrator to help you with the move. " so please get help. Regards, Zeq 09:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you better ask User:Guy Montag, who did the move in the first place. I have to sign out now. Regards, Huldra 09:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Done. Zeq 10:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation
I have created the disambiguation page and it is gone, no record of it ever created. Zeq 17:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It is were you made it: Grand Mufti (disambiguation). -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Kim, I don't understand what you are looking for. Do you want "a guide to write an encyclopedia article about the Mufti" ? There is no such link or publication we should use our best judgment and policy. The most applicaable policy is WP:Dis.

The method we do disambiguation is list at the top of the page. The disambiguation helps people find the correct article. What you have done does not help them, in fact you used your admin toolds to hide the article from people who punch in the search words "grand Mufti" and want to find abou the most famous mufti of them all. He is know all over the world under the title "grand Mufti" (this is btw, the main title on him in Hebrew wikipedia but that beside the point)

So why do you want to hide the article and why aren't you following the disambiguation policy ? Zeq 17:42, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

PS here are two google searches that would help you understand why most refernces to  grand Mufti  are to a specific person:


 * 1) http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22grand+mufti%22++&btnG=Search - 253,000 web entries
 * 2) http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&q=%22grand+mufti%22++Palestine+OR+jerusalem+OR+amin+OR+Husayni+OR+husseini&btnG=Search out of those 253,000 more than 2/3 (153,000 to be exact) are about Al-Husseieni.  The number may be even highr since I did not use all the possible speling of his name.

Best, Zeq 17:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I did a bit more searching with the string you gave, and you are correct that it is used often in context with each other.


 * Disambiguation is used for word, names etc that have multiple meanings, and can lead to confusion. This page is about the term, and a list of those people. I can see that there are serious arguments to clarify this, and I have added a new disambig at the top using more neutral language. As they are looking for a name, we do not have to add content to the disambig, just clarify that they have to search at a different spot. I think that the disambig page you created is not longer nessecary now, and I can delete that one if you like. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:17, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This page is mostly about the title. List of people carrying that title (most are minor non notable figures) so the proper name for ths article is about the title of grand Mufti. This would make the disambigaution needed again. Zeq 19:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Whether they are minor or not, about 50% of the page is covered with a list of people's names, so that does make it unlogical to have a title dealing with the title and ignoring the people. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


 * It is still about the title (and just names of the people holding thjis title). This is similar to the notion in Judaism about "chief rabbi" . This is different from pope where the person himslef become the center of the issue. Zeq 19:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * That does not change that the current page is a long list of people for the most part. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 19:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

maybe we shoud seprate this page into two: 1 article about people who hold this title and a more important article about the title - we can cross ref them to each other. Zeq 19:59, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that that would be a really bad idea. The article is already quite short, and I was more thiking about merging it with mufti, as that article is also very short. Currently, it is fully unclear in either article what the distinction between the two is, and merging the article would be much better as that gives the best option to clarify that. -- Kim van der Linde at venus 20:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

taken out
UFC mufti roxane, definately a prank —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.118.55.106 (talk) 08:13, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Incomplete list
The list of Grand Muftis is clearly incomplete. I've a list of signatories of a Common Word which includes quite a few other Grand Muftis (and most without a Wikipedia entry). Gebruiker:Dedalus 12:53, 12 October 2007 (UTC)