Talk:Grand Palace/GA1

GA Review
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Reviewer: MathewTownsend (talk · contribs) 17:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Will review shortly. MathewTownsend (talk) 17:56, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Beginning comments
 * simple words like "island" and "royal residence" shouldn't be linked.
 * Is the building on an island in the river? It says it will be moved "to the east bank", but then it says it's on an island. It infers by the piped island link to River island that it is on an island in Chao Phraya River? Also, the image shows it on a bank "across from the Chao Phraya River", so it's unclear to me. Also, it says under "Site" - "with the Chao Phraya river to the west."
 * King needs consistent name: he's called "King Buddha Yodfa Chulaloke (Rama I)", Rama I, King Rama I etc. (His article, which might not be correct, says he didn't gain the name Rama I until after his death.)
 * Also, I've removed "the" from dates, as in "the 10, June 2012" (example)
 * Layout
 * "Palace's asymmetry and eclectic styles is due to its organic development" - asymmetry and eclectic style is due ...? or "asymmetry and eclectic styles are due"?
 * "the Second Kings or Viceroys of Siam" - who are these people?
 * "Rama I ordered his men to go upstream to Ayutthaya. They were ordered to dismantle ... " - repetitious wording
 * The whole section beginning "Desperate for materials and short on funds, Rama I ordered his men to go upstream to Ayutthaya. They were ordered to dismantle and brought down as many brick as they could find. As they could not take from the temples they began first by taking from the forts and walls of the city, by the end they had completely leveled the old royal palaces. etc." seems like it should go into the "Construction" section, or some section other than "Layout" - it seems off topic.
 * Name
 * "However during the reign of King Mongkut (Rama IV) the name Phra Borom Maha Ratcha Wang or 'Grand Palace' was first used in official documents. This change of name was made during the elevation of Prince Chutamani (the king's younger brother) to the title of Second King Pinklao in 1851." - this is confusing. What were the dates for King Mongkut (Rama IV)? Prince Chutamani was his younger brother who was given the title of Second King Pinklao?
 * He was a Second King, like a Vice President? or was he a full king, but the second one after the death of Rama IV?
 * Functions
 * "By the 1920s a series of new palaces were constructed elsewhere for the king's use; these included the more modern Dusit Palace, constructed in 1903, and Phaya Thai Palace in 1909." - this is more construction info. Should all the construction stuff be under "Construction"?
 * Would it be better to have a another section for straight, chronological history, to account for changes over time?

MathewTownsend (talk) 20:36, 25 January 2012 (UTC)


 * 1st reply
 * I will answer point-by-point.
 * Beginning comments
 * Agreed
 * The palace is on a river island (Rattanakosin Island), which has the Chao Phraya river along its west side. So the palace is both on an island and on the east bank of the river, I am not sure how to explain it. Would a map help?
 * I personally prefer the use of King 'Rama' Number, because it is shorter and more practical for readers unfamiliar with Thai history (as it is chronological). The name 'Rama' was given to all the previous kings (and then assumed by later ones) by King Vajiravudh (Rama VI) in the 1920s. He did so to make it easier for westerners, Thai people themselves never refer to the kings this way, but as First reign, Second reign, Third reign, etc. This is a little confusing I know, the whole system is explained (even more confusingly) here: Rama (Kings of Thailand). Furthermore the use of 'Rama' is standard practice in most English language sources on Thai history. What I have done in this article is to use both: the full name (which is also their Wiki article names) and Rama in brackets, but only for the first mention. Afterwards only Rama is used in the rest of the article. However this maybe unnecessarily confusing for readers. I think I am too close to the subject, what do you think it should be?
 * Agreed
 * Layout
 * "Palace's asymmetry and eclectic styles are due"
 * The Second King (sometimes called Viceroy) was an official appointed by the (first) King to help him rule the country. He lives in a palace to the north of the Grand Palace, this palace is called the 'Front Palace', the name of the palace has since become a metonym for his office. His palace is to the 'front' or ahead of the king's palace because he used to command the army's front section during wartime.
 * Agreed, will try and restructure the sentence.
 * Agreed completely, starting to think this section needs a whole rewrite, if not at least some rearranging.
 * Name
 * King Mongkut reigned from 1851 to 1868. After his coronation he appointed his brother Prince Chutamani, Second King. In the old days when a Thai king gives someone a title he also gives him a new name to go with it. Thus Second King Pinklao (title and new name), the name 'Pinklao' is then used instead of his previous name. Pinklao is the name he is most known for in sources.
 * The Second King is indeed like a Vice President, in fact Pinklao described himself as such in a letter he wrote to President Buchanan (will find a source for this). The title is not hereditary, the tile remains vacant until a new one is appointed. Pinklao predeceased his brother in 1866, the title then fell vacant. King Mongkut died in 1868 and was succeeded by his son Chulalongkorn (Rama V), who appointed a new Second King Vichaichan in 1868.


 * Functions
 * I agree with you on this, a new chronological History section would be better, I will put something together later and link it here for you to consider. Sodacan (talk) 05:21, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Just made this: User:Sodacan/Sandbox1/Box3, I have removed all of the subheadings as they restrict the flow of the chronology. What do you think? :) Sodacan (talk) 10:31, 26 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Further comments
 * Yes, I like your history section in your Box 3. I think it helps to have all the history together.
 * I'm getting used to the article.
 * In "Outer court", what does "Directly down the main gate is the Phimanchaisri Gate" mean? Next to?
 * I hate to say this, but the Middle court panorama image, being cut off at the top the way it is, detracts IMO. At the very least, it shouldn't be a panorama. Also, there are so many images in the article, perhaps too many, as the text becomes sandwiched in-between. Especially since some of the ones you took are really beautiful, showing the detail, just lovely&mdash;I think those should be emphasized.


 * Good then, I shall paste the new arrangement in. What do you think about a map of Bangkok and a table in with all the kings in chronological order? These could help with some of the confusions.
 * Glad to hear that, I put in so much information, and the format could be a little confusing, jumping around between this king and that king! :)
 * I will try and write a better explanation for that.
 * Agreed, about the panorama and the other images. There are probably too many images in the article, I will try and get rid of one or two.
 * Please feel free to field any more questions, I am very happy to help with anymore historical content issues, Best, Sodacan (talk) 07:37, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * (continuing)
 * This image Vladimir Putin at APEC Summit in Thailand 19-21 October 2003-12.jpg should be down in the section the mentions the APEC Summit.
 * I'm ambivalent about adding any more information to the article, as it has so much already. We could try a map of Bangkok and a list of the kings and see how it works. Could the kings be made into a stand alone list, if necessary? MathewTownsend (talk) 15:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * We have this template: Template:Chakri Kings, which we could improve a little bit. A map sounds good, I will get on it. Perhaps something similar to this?: Bangkok (early Rattanakosin) map.svg Sodacan (talk) 15:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, I think that map is helpful.
 * "The Grand Palace is not a single structure but a series of numerous buildings, halls, pavilions set around open lawns, gardens and courtyards. The Grand Palace's asymmetry and eclectic styles are due to its organic development, with additions and rebuilding being made by successive reigning kings over 200 years of history." - should this go into the lede since its descriptive of the palace now?
 * I guess, it does seem a little out of place where it is, please move it to where you think is appropriate. Sodacan (talk) 16:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * "Entering through the main Visetchaisri Gate, the Temple of the Emerald Buddha is located to the left, with many public buildings located to the right" - this sentence needs rewording (I tried to figure out how), as there is no noun referring to who is entering - e.g. As one enters through the main Visetchaisri Gate, the Temple etc.


 * "The Visetchaisri Gate is the main entrance into the Outer Court, as one enters through it the Temple of the Emerald Buddha is located to the left, with many public buildings located to the right" is this better? Sodacan (talk) 16:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The template with all the monarchs is now in the History section. Within are all of the royal portraits, so I decided to remove the others in the article as there is no particular reason why they should be there and this will also clear up some for the clutter. I have also included the map of the Rattanakosin Island and surrounding area. Sodacan (talk) 12:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Reply
 * A big improvement. I like what you did. Visually I only which that there were a way of including some of the detail, to give a flavor of the richness, but I don't see a way. MathewTownsend (talk) 14:15, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * These are photos from the Temple: Wat Phra Kaew, so they would not really fit here. However I know what you mean, if I have some free time soon I will go down (hopefully once the tourist season is over) and take some more photos along the same lines. Sodacan (talk) 14:30, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Query
 * "Today the Grand Palace is still a centre of ceremony and the monarchy, and serves as a museum and tourist attraction as well." - does this mean that it serves as a centre of ceremony for the monarchy? Or the centre of ceremony (of all kinds, religious perhaps) and is the centre of the monarchy also? MathewTownsend (talk) 18:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * The latter, all kinds of ceremonies happen (religious rituals, state functions (such as state banquets) and royal ceremonies (royal funerals and lyings-in-state)), it is also the center of the Thai monarchy as evident by the location of the Bureau of the Royal Household and the office of the king's private secretary within its walls. Sodacan (talk) 18:33, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Query
 * "On the morning of 9 June 1946 the palace bore witness to his mysterious and unexplained death by gunshot." - This was King Rama VI? Was this political, or what? MathewTownsend (talk) 19:54, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * No this is the young King Rama VIII or Ananda Mahidol, the older brother of the present King. No one knows, it's still a mystery, his article summarizes it pretty well the different theories of what might have happened. Sodacan (talk) 19:58, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

GA review-see WP:WIAGA for criteria (and here for what they are not)


 * 1) Is it reasonably well written?
 * A. Prose: clear and concise, correct spelling and grammar:
 * B. Complies with MoS for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation:
 * 1) Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
 * A. Provides references to all sources:
 * AGF ones not in English
 * B. Provides in-line citations from reliable sources where necessary:
 * C. No original research:
 * 1) Is it broad in its coverage?
 * A. Main aspects are addressed:
 * B. Remains focused:
 * 1) Does it follow the neutral point of view policy.
 * Fair representation without bias:
 * 1) Is it stable?
 * No edit wars, etc:
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Please check all the subsequent edits I made. - I don't think I changed the meaning.
 * Congratuations! A very interesting article. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
 * A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
 * B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
 * 1) Overall:
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Please check all the subsequent edits I made. - I don't think I changed the meaning.
 * Congratuations! A very interesting article. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Pass or Fail:
 * Please check all the subsequent edits I made. - I don't think I changed the meaning.
 * Congratuations! A very interesting article. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Please check all the subsequent edits I made. - I don't think I changed the meaning.
 * Congratuations! A very interesting article. MathewTownsend (talk) 22:10, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


 * Everything looks great, Thank you! Sodacan (talk) 02:36, 29 January 2012 (UTC)