Talk:Grand Portage National Monument

Great Lakes/Arctic drainage divide
I removed the following paragraph from the introduction:
 * The Grand Portage crosses the Northern Continental divide that separates the drainage basins of the Arctic Ocean from that of the Atlantic Ocean. At the location the water divide is located only a few miles from the shores of Lake Superior. The portage provides passage between the waters of the Nelson River watershed and the Saint Lawrence River watershed including the Great Lakes.

The "Grand Portage" does not cross the divide -- it simply bypasses unnavigable portions (i.e. waterfalls) of the Pigeon River. I know this from personal experience, having portaged and canoed through Grand Portage National Monument. The divide is not "a few miles" from Lake Superior as the paragraph suggests, but rather crosses between South Lake and North Lake at a location known (at least locally) as "Height of Land Portage", in reference to the crossing of the Laurentian (or "Northern") Divide. (Google Maps) I think references to the Nelson River and Saint Lawrence River should include an explanation of their role as major outlet rivers and their general locations -- I personally couldn't draw the Nelson River on a map of Canada. Also, both these rivers are far away (hundreds, thousands of miles) away from the topic of the article. -- BlueCanoe 00:39, 26 October 2005 (UTC)
 * I think the introduction is still wrong. It now states (as of 4 Sept 2006):
 * The Pigeon River was a waterway of enormous importance in pre-industrial times, as its headwaters meet the headwaters of the Rainy River some 50 miles upstream. The waterway thus crosses the Northern Continental divide that separates the drainage basins of the Arctic Ocean from that of the Atlantic Ocean. It provides passage between the waters of the Hudson Bay watershed and the Great Lakes, including their watershed.
 * The "waterway" does not cross the divide. On historic canoe routes there may be a few bodies of water that straddle divides (e.g. Committee's Punch Bowl) but the Pigeon River and its tributary the Arrow River do not cross the Laurentian Divide.  The historic voyageurs route crosses the Height of Land but the waterway does not.  Kablammo 20:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * The paragraph has been removed as it was incorrect. In any event the crossing of the continental divide is a feature of the border route but not of Grand Portage.  I have added some additional text but the article could benefit from a fuller discussion of history.  Kablammo 21:10, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * My deletion has now been reverted, but with corrections. I have since combined the corrected text with my prior additions to the introduction.  I have invited the other editor to discuss further changes here.  Some points:
 * -The Height of Land portage connects South and North Lakes. Mountain Lake is the source of the Pigeon River; its tributary the Arrow River arises in South Lake.
 * -The route provides access not only to Hudson Bay, but also via the Mackenzie basin to the Arctic Ocean.
 * -It may be more appropriate to create a separate article covering the entire voyageurs' route (or routes) from Montreal and Lake Superior to the Canadian interior, and to deal there with its features. The continental divide is of course an important feature of the route, but it lies well outside the Grand Portage National Monument.
 * -There is no need here for the image of North American continental divides.
 * Kablammo 03:10, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

First French use of Grand Portage route
Nice article, but I have one bit of nit-picking. Although the Cree map was drawn in 1729, I believe the French didn't actually use the portage until LaVerendrye and his crew used it in 1731. ??? IWfromWI 14:39, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * IWfromWI, I don't see the current text of the article disagreeing with what you're saying:
 * "In 1729 Cree guide Auchagah drew a map for some of the first French fur traders showing them how to reach the 'western sea' of Lake Winnipeg. In time, Grand Portage became the gateway into rich northern fur bearing country connecting remote interior outposts to lucrative international markets."
 * As it's written, the map is created in 1729 and the French begin using the route sometime after that. Thinking about it, I think I actually prefer the slightly ambiguous nature of the text as it is.  To say the fur trade over Grand Portage "began" in 1731 would imply that there were brigades of voyageurs right behind La Verendrye.  In reality it probably took a little while for the trade to ramp up after LaV explored, established outposts, reported on findings, etc.  If we really want to get picky, Jacques De Noyon traveled that route on his return voyage in 1688. -- BlueCanoe 23:46, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Ambiguity is good I guess.  I just wanted to make sure we were accurate.  Blue Canoe, do we know for sure that it was used in 1688 by De Noyon?  I have heard a few arguements for its use earlier, but nothing solid.  Most books on GP as well as the info I saw and was given when I worked there generally tends to be NWCo area and the earlier stuff isn't as represented. I would love to see the info behind that and would be VERY excited were it true.  I have a developing interest in the 17th century history of the Great Lakes. IWfromWI 15:52, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've generally found very little information on Jacques de Noyon; he doesn't even have a Wikipedia article yet despite being one of the early explorers of Canada. A historical timeline on the French Wikipedia states that in 1688 (translated):
 * "Canada: Jacques de Noyon arrives to Rainy Lake and binds preliminary trade with Assiniboines."
 * Unfortunately there's no reference attached to that claim. I linked to the Atlas of Canada above, which is an official publication of the Canadian government, so it should be a decent source.  They state that:
 * "In 1688, De Noyon canoed up the Kaministiquia River, and then possibly as far as the Lake of the Woods. It was here that he learned from the local Aboriginal peoples of a western ocean from which this lake flowed (likely Lake Winnipeg). However, French westward expansion was halted due to conflict with English in the period 1689-1713."
 * The Atlas' map shows De Noyon traveling up the Kam and through the Quetico to Rainy Lake and then back down along the present-day Border Route, including, presumably, Grand Portage. -- BlueCanoe 20:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * I did a little Googling and found enough to start the Jacques de Noyon article. It sounds like he certainly traveled from Thunder Bay to Rainy Lake via the Kam in 1688.  Maybe they went as far as Lake of the Woods.  Maybe they returned via the border route and Grand Portage.  That's not so clear.  It was only this one trip, with La Verendrye being the next European in the Boundary Waters some 40+ years later. -- BlueCanoe 22:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Grace Lee Nute wrote that some historians believe that the Sieur des Groseilliers and Radisson may have explored the Grand Portage/Pigeon route as early as 1660 when they visited Superior's north shore. Kablammo 23:02, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the information. I know the Kam route was the most common throughout the early french period and had assumed this was followed both ways. It is certainly feasible that he travelled back using the Grand Portage, but there doesn't seem to be any good proof. As far as Nute is concerned... be cautious. Many current fur trade historians have mixed feelings about her work. While they were landmarks of the period, they are now a bit outdated and suffer from a lack of available information when she originally did her research. This topic of de Noyen and GP is one I will have to investigate further... I am intrigued IWfromWI 15:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Nute is a very facile writer and has made great contributions to the area, but occasionally she is wrong (she located Height of Land Portage near Rainy Lake), and she does not footnote her work. But her statement is intriguing; I look forward to what you find.  Kablammo 17:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I've found some books to check out on this subject next time I'm at the library:


 * La Vérendrye, Pierre Gaultier de Varennes, sieur de, 1685-1749. Journals and letters of Pierre Gaultier de Varennes de La Vérendrye and his sons, with correspondence between the governors of Canada and the French court, touching the search for the western sea;. The Champlain Society, 1927.
 * Burpee, Lawrence J. (Lawrence Johnstone), 1873-1946. Pathfinders of the great plains; a chronicle of La Vérendrye and his sons. Glasgow, Brook & Company, 1920.
 * Dugas, George, 1833-1928. The Canadian West : its discovery by the Sieur de La Vérendrye. Its development by the fur-trading companies, down to the year 1822. Librairie Beauchemin, 1905.
 * Nute, Grace Lee, 1895. Caesars of the wilderness: Médard Chouart, sieur des Groseilliers, and Pierre Esprit Radisson, 1618-1710. D. Appleton-Century company, incorporated [1943] (is this the Nute title you referred to, Kablammo?)
 * No, it was The Voyageur's Highway (2002, orig pub. 1941) Kablammo 23:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Radisson, Pierre Esprit, ca. 1636-1710. Voyages of Peter Esprit Radisson, being an account of his travels and experiences among the North American Indians, from 1652 to 1684. Transcribed from original manuscripts in the Bodleian library and the British museum. P. Smith, 1943.
 * Laut, Agnes C. (Agnes Christina), 1871-1936. Pathfinders of the west; being the thrilling story of the adventures of the men who discovered the great Northwest, Raddison, La Verendrye, Lewis and Clark. Macmillan, 1914, c1904.
 * -- BlueCanoe 20:47, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

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