Talk:Grand Tour (cycling)

comments
A Grand Tour Category could be useful --Skyleth 12:27, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the etymology of the term Grand Tour? I don't recall its usage before Y2K — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gyrospite (talk • contribs) 07:31, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

The plural of Giro
Is "Giri." You wouldn't say "paparazzos," would you?

"Tonkov continued to race at a high level for several seasons. He was second in the 1997 and 1998 Giri d’Italia,"

"Nonetheless, you simply don’t win two Giri d’Italia by only being a solid climber and a lucky rider." 

"Though not a prolific winner, the farmer and donkey owner has amassed two stage wins and a 3rd-place overall finish in the past two Giri d'Italia." 

Hmm? Nosleep break my slumber 15:21, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Paparazzi is borrowed as a plural, but giro is not, and the English plural morpheme is -s. As a rule, borrowings are pluralized according to the rules of the borrowing language. Giri seems a hypercorrection to me. Zwart (talk) 15:49, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Is there some reason you removed my examples and, more importantly, my signature? Nosleep break my slumber 16:01, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm very sorry, I hadn't noticed that these were examples, and I also hadn't recognized the signature (it being colored and all). No offense intended. I've restored them above. If it is your impression that Giri is standard usage, then we should keep it that way. Personally I think Giri d'Italia is even weirder, I would prefer Giro d'Italias. To illustrate my point, think of the plural of foreign words like fjord (from Norwegian), sovjet (from Russian), yacht (from Dutch), etc. All these are pluralized according to English grammar, not according to the grammar of the language of origin. Zwart (talk) 20:54, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * In the phrase Grand Tour, we are using grand in its French, rather than its English, sense. Should this article therefore be called Grands Tours? We might not use paparazzos, but we do not use the singulars paparazzo, spagghetto or scampo either, so I'm not sure that that line of reasoning bears any weight.  Two of the cycling publications you cite also use Giros: Daily Peloton and Cycling news, and so do heavyweight publications (although not cycling specialists) such as Time and The Independent.  So appeal to RS seems indecisive.  Looks like a stadium/stadia type issue: hard to say that either is incorrect, but desirable that we have consistency at least within an article.  My preference, for reasons given above by Zwart, would be for Giros.  Kevin McE (talk) 08:54, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "Giri d'Italia" and "Giros d'Italia" seem to be of roughly equivalent usage. I unequivocally do not want "Giro d'Italias" (and this is straight up English - you wouldn't say "hall of fames," would you?), but beyond that, this isn't anything I'm interested in fighting about. Nosleep  break my slumber 17:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It depends on what you're pluralizing: Giro or Giro d'Italia. For example, you don't say two Albertos Contador but two Alberto Contadors, because you're taking Alberto Contador to be a unit. Anyway, I'll change back to Giros and see how well it holds up.Zwart (talk) 20:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there aren't two Alberto Contadors, but there are plenty of Giri d'Italia ;) I guess I don't feel as strongly about this as I thought I did. Nosleep  break my slumber 03:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Erik Zabel Grand Tour Stage Wins
Erik Zabel never won any stages in the Giro, so the statistics as they are currently presented in the table (21 Giro stage victories) are incorrect. Wenkbrauwalbatros (talk) 20:43, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Cheers Wenkbrau. Very odd that Erik was credited with more than twice what he should be! Have removed them. Andrewdpcotton (talk) 14:38, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Alfredo Binda
Binda has won 41 stages in Giro d'Italia. In this section it is written that he won 42 stages. --Mystère Martin (talk) 10:13, 22 July 2011 (UTC)

Most Grand Tour Participations and Finishes
I'd like to add this new section but I'd need help to do it. Or I can supply the data for an expert to do. Eduardo Chozas (ES) deserves recognition for his 27 participations and 26 finishes (in the '84 Vuelta he failed to complete the final stage), along with other notable cyclists in this category. EdX20 (talk) 18:27, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Podium records
I'd like to add this information. Can anybody help me?:

MOST PODIUMS ON ALL THE GRAND TOURS

=
=========TOUR====GIRO====VUELTA==========TOTAL======= Jacques Anquetil	6	6	1		13 Bernard Hinault		7	3	2		12 Eddy Merckx		6	5	1		12 Felice Gimondi		2	9	1		12 Raymond Poulidor	8	0	2		10 Gino Bartali		3	7	0		10 Miguel Induráin		5	3	1		 9 Fausto Coppi		2	7	0		 9 Lance Armstrong		8	0	0		 8 Pedro Delgado		3	0	5		 8 Joop Zoetemelk		7	0	1		 8

CYCLISTS WHO REACHED PODIUM ON ALL THE GRAND TOURS

=
=========TOUR====GIRO====VUELTA==========TOTAL======= Jacques Anquetil	6	6	1		13 Bernard Hinault		7	3	2		12 Eddy Merckx		6	5	1		12 Felice Gimondi		2	9	1		12 Miguel Induráin		5	3	1		 9 Laurent Fignon		3	2	1		 6 Carlos Sastre		2	1	3		 6 Toni Rominger		1	1	4		 6 Alberto Contador	2	1	2		 5 Denís Menchov		2	1	2		 5 Jose Manuel Fuente	1	1	2		 4 Vincenzo Nibali		1	2	1		 4 Herman Van Springel	1	1	1		 3

MOST PODIUMS ON TOUR DE FRANCE

=
===========1º======2º======3º============TOTAL======= Lance Armstrong*	7	0	1		8 Raymond Poulidor	0	3	5		8 Bernard Hinault		5	2	0		7 Joop Zoetemelk		1	6	0		7 Eddy Merckx		5	1	0		6 Jacques Anquetil	5	0	1		6 Jan Ullrich		1	5	0		6 Gustave Garrigou	1	3	2		6 Miguel Induráin		5	0	0		5 Greg LeMond		3	1	1		5 Louison Bobet		3	0	1		4 Nicolás Frantz		2	2	0		4 Antonin Magne		2	1	1		4 Jean Alavoine		0	2	2		4

MOST PODIUMS ON GIRO D'ITALIA

=
===========1º======2º======3º============TOTAL======= Felice Gimondi		3	2	4		9 Fausto Coppi		5	2	0		7 Gino Bartali		3	4	0		7 Gilberto Simoni		2	1	4		7 Alfredo Binda		5	1	0		6 Giovanni Brunero	3	2	1		6 Francesco Moser		1	3	2		6 Eddy Merckx		5	0	0		5 Fiorenzo Magni		3	2	0		5 Giuseppe Saronni	2	1	1		4 Charly Gaul		2	0	2		4 Italo Zilioli		0	3	1		4 Bartolomeo Aimo		0	1	3		4

MOST PODIUMS ON VUELTA A ESPAÑA

=
===========1º======2º======3º============TOTAL======= Roberto Heras		3	1	1		5 Pedro Delgado		2	1	2		5 Luis Ocaña		1	3	1		5 Tony Rominger		3	0	1		4 Julián Berrendero	2	2	0		4 Alejandro Valverde	1	2	1		4 José Pérez-Francés	0	2	2		4 Miguel María Lasa	0	2	2		4 Alex Zülle		2	1	0		3 Marino Lejarreta	1	1	1		3 Reimund Dietzen		0	2	1		3

— Preceding unsigned comment added by RobertCS (talk • contribs) 19:20, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Pantani stage wins
According to his Wikipedia page, he won 8 stages of the Tour and another 8 in the Giro, so 16 overall. Shouldn't he be in the most stage wins list therefore? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.25.55.5 (talk) 12:04, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

Armstrong
Shouldn't the table list who was declared winner of the Tours when Armstrong wasn't listed? and the table of top totals winners, Armstrong should be listed and crossed out because the Tour now resumes listing him but crossed out. -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 07:16, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

The governing body never awarded a winner for those years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salestron (talk • contribs) 15:37, 27 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Not listing him at all makes this article kind of a joke. Everyone knows he's GOAT and everyone knows that all of the top cyclists were on gear when he raced, before he raced, and still to this day. 99.240.76.148 (talk) 05:59, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

"Serena slam"
Whie no rider has won all three in a calendar year, Anquetil and Merx have held all three jerseys - Anquetil winning four tours in a row. Shoud we highlight this.


 * I would agree it should be added! Additionally with regards to Anquetil he wasnt referenced in the most consecutive winners section. Additionally, Merx only won 3 in a row not 4 unless the statistics above wrong/misleading as the giro tour and vuelta were not always in the same order. I am going to try to go figure out the dates involved to verify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Salestron (talk • contribs) 15:46, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

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Women's Grand Tour
Add section about women equivalent. Which races were considered part of GT (and during what period), what was their categorization .... This current article should have title "Men's GT", as it only is about men even though there is Women's GT. 213.149.61.164 (talk) 19:48, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Giro d'Italia Femminile
 * Tour de l'Aude Cycliste Féminin
 * Grande Boucle Féminine Internationale (two races were overlapping for 2 years - which was considered GT race)

Complete sweep
List of those who won all 3 GT races in a year. 213.149.62.46 (talk) 13:30, 26 November 2018 (UTC)


 * No-one ever has: I very much doubt that anyone ever will. Kevin McE (talk) 10:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Giro Donne, Tour de France Femmes and soon, La Vuelta Femenina
This article will need to evolve regarding women's Grand Tour races. The Giro Donne has been around for a while now, but the Tour de France Femmes (re)launches in 2022, and La Vuelta Femenina is coming in 2023 - a full set of Women's Grand Tour races. So suggested options for this article -


 * Do we keep everything here regarding Grand Tours for both men and women? (this is my preferred option, but it would require a little rewriting/updating of subtitles) This would allow the long history and context regarding Grand Tour events to inform the section about the newer women's events - as well as including the major women's races under the same category as the Giro, Tour and Vuelta.
 * Do we split article in two - one for men and one for women? In my opinion, not very inclusive or helpful for the reader - a 'Grand Tour' is a specific type of event!
 * Or do we have three articles - one about Grand Tour races generally, and then two separate articles for men and women with all the stats in them? I note there's already List of Grand Tour general classification winners...

Turini2 (talk) 10:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Any thoughts at all... Turini2 (talk) 22:14, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There are (or will be) female races run under the auspices of the organisers of Grand Tours, and with names derived from those of the Grand Tours. There are not female Grand Tours by any generally accepted definition of the term: like you say "a 'Grand Tour' is a specific type of event", and these do not meet that specification.  Link to the women's races, with a text that the organisers also run these similarly named events, but I don't believe those events need any more reference as GTs than that. Kevin McE (talk) 10:53, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * @Kevin McE Not three week stage races no - but I would argue that the Giro and Tour certainly are the largest, longest, most prestigious and most watched women's stage races - they clearly also have historical pedigree. (No other multi day women's stage events have more than 6 days ... due to UCI rules!) The article currently states "The Giro Rosa, the ten stage Italian road race for women is the only race on the current women's circuit treated as broadly equivalent to a Grand Tour". To wait until the UCI lets women ride for three weeks/the economics of the women's peloton make riding for three weeks possible - would do this article and the women's peloton a disservice, imo. Turini2 (talk) 12:17, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * As an example, the gender neutral language "Seven cyclists have won the Tour and the Giro in the same calendar year" means that Annemiek van Vleuten should be added to that list! After all, she has done the Giro Tour double! Turini2 (talk) 12:21, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * No she hasn't. She hasn't, and is not entitled to, enter either of those races, because in the context of Grand Tours, 'Giro' mean's the men's Giro d'Italia, and 'Tour' means the men's Tour de France.  As well as the Vuelta, Roglic has won the Tour (or Romandie) and the Giro (dell'Emilia), but he has not won all three GTs.
 * The quote you make re the Giro Rosa is unsourced opinion, so proves nothing (and probably shouldn't be there). It is not being 'most watched' that makes something a GT, nor is it prestige - we certainly wouldn't include early editions of the Vuelta if that were the case.  Nor is it historical pedigree (questionable for the TdFF, as they seem determined to play down any previous events so that they can claim historical firsts): many classics have much more history.
 * I am very hapy that these races exist and get good promotion, but they can only be described as Grand Tours by totally changing the definition of Grand Tour. That is not something that an encyclopaedia should seek to do. Kevin McE (talk) 13:54, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

To consider the definition that is attempted in the intro: a Grand Tour is one of the three (once women's events are included, that is not the case) major (Crystal balling, at least for the Vuelta) European professional cycling stage races: Giro d'Italia, Tour de France, and Vuelta a España. Collectively they are termed the Grand Tours (not a phrase widely used in relation to the women's events), and all three races are similar in format, being three-week races (not the case) with daily stages. They have a special status in the UCI regulations: more points for the UCI World Tour are distributed in Grand Tours than in other races (not the case in terms of WWT points) and they are the only stage races allowed to last longer than 14 days (they don't). So by what already existing definition do you seek to treat them as GTs? Kevin McE (talk) 14:03, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * (as you may already be aware) The origin of Grand Tour is from Grand Tour - "a tour of European cultural centres that once was a standard feature of the education of the European elite". The use of the term for cycling is relatively new - from the 1990s onwards iirc.
 * In summary, definitions for Grand Tours include:
 * "any of the three major European professional road cycling races: the Tour de France, the Giro d'Italia, or the Vuelta."
 * One of the three most prominent cycling races: either the Tour de France, Giro d'Italia and Vuelta a España.
 * At the high level, I feel the TDFF and the Giro Donne races meet those definitions, as the most prominent cycling races for women. Going more detailed, do those races meet the UCI's technical definition regarding days and stages? No. Do they meet the detailed definition you outline? Partially yes and no.
 * I think we can agree however, that both the TDFF and the Giro Donne are the largest, most prominent, longest (again, because of UCI rules! (Giro Donne is 4 days longer and TDFF is 2 days longer)) and most watched women's races - and there are plenty of sources equating them with being the women's equivalent to the Tour de France and the Giro d'Italia. So therefore they do meet a definition, and don't meet a definition! (and yes any addition of the Vuelta is crystal balling RN)
 * As I stated above, I don't propose rewriting this article comprehensively, or redefining Grand Tour from the current text - my suggestion was inclusion of the women's races in a subsection that would allow the long history and context regarding Grand Tour events to inform a section about these newer women's events - after all, they are linked by name (and in the TDFF's case - the organiser) to these historic events. Turini2 (talk) 15:10, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * (I appreciate that women's cycling is not at the (more) egalitarian level of tennis, yet - a mostly equally balanced Grand Slam (tennis) article, for example. Gotta start somewhere.) Turini2 (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

An attempt at a new lead / subsection

 * I had a go at a balanced lead, let me know what you think - adapted the second sentence from the Grand Slam article, because I think it's a reasonable definition!
 * In road bicycle racing, a Grand Tour is one of the three major European professional cycling stage races: Giro d'Italia, Tour de France, and Vuelta a España. They offer the most prize money, public and media attention, the greatest strength and size of field, and the longest events (three week races with daily stages for the men, 8 to 10 stages for women). Collectively they are termed the Grand Tours.
 * For men, all three races are similar in format, being three-week races with daily stages. They have a special status in the UCI regulations: more points for the UCI World Tour are distributed in Grand Tours than in other races, and they are the only stage races allowed to last longer than 14 days.
 * All three men's races have substantial history, with the Tour de France first held in 1903, Giro d'Italia first held in 1909 and the Vuelta a España first held in 1935. The Giro d'Italia is generally run in May, the Tour de France in July, and the Vuelta a España in late August and September. The Vuelta was originally held in the spring, usually late April, with a few editions held in June in the 1940s. In 1995, however, the race moved to September to avoid direct competition with the Giro d'Italia.
 * For women, the Giro Donne and Tour de France Femmes are broadly equivalent races to a shorter, smaller timescale, being just over a week in length with around 8 to 10 stages. The Giro Donne was first held in 1988, and various women's Tour de France events have taken place since 1984 - with the Tour de France Femmes having its first edition in 2022. The Giro Donne is generally run in late June / early July and the Tour de France Femmes is held in late July following the men's Tour de France.
 * The Tour de France is the oldest and most prestigious event of the three, and is the most widely attended annual sporting event in the world. The Tour, the Giro and the Road World Cycling Championship make up the Triple Crown of Cycling. Turini2 (talk) 15:39, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Cycling may, or may not, have borrowed the phrase grand tour from the leisure time exploits of the wealthy in post-Victorian times: that is a red herring. Wikipedia's standpoint is, quite approprately, to follow widespread usage: You say "Gotta start somewhere", but Wikipedia is not the place to start: its role is to respond to and report on what is established, not to campaign or promote a cause. Unless and until the cycling, and wider, media ordinarily refer to theese events as Grand Tours, Wikipedia should not. That is the only criterion that matters in this project: verifiability. Do you have any? Kevin McE (talk) 18:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)


 * I could find a few more, but there's certainly several varied media outlets (both niche and not) calling the women's races Grand Tours, both recently and several years ago (when the Giro Donne was the only race)
 * "By condensing the action and spectacle of a grand tour into eight days" Roadcc (2022)
 * How to watch Tour de France Femmes avec Zwift 2022: Live stream the women's Grand Tour Cycling Weekly (2022)
 * This Tour did a good job of creating a varied race, with opportunities for different riders and a course that demanded a bit of everything from the GC riders, but to really complete its status as a Grand Tour, an against the clock challenge is needed. Cycling News (2022)
 * After the Tour de France femmes avec Zwift announced its record $250,000 purse, another women's grand tour event, the Giro d'Italia Donne, matched the Tour's prize money amount. NPR (2022)
 * Giro d'Italia Donne 2022 - First Grand Tour of the season begins with Cagliari time trial Eurosport (2022)
 * All info on the 2022 Giro Donne, the first women’s Grand Tour of the year for the Movistar Team Movistar Team (Of course the teams would call it a GT, they're in it for the marketing!)
 * Italian women's Grand Tour to race high altitude summit with Gavia finish Cyclist (2018)
 * Amanda Spratt a Grand Tour winner in the making after Giro Rosa triumph Guardian (2018)
 * Turini2 (talk) 19:25, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm not here to campaign or promote a cause - I completely agree with you that any change would need to be verified. But I'm of the opinion that these events *are* being referred to as Grand Tours - as per the sources above - and the article should therefore change to reflect that. Turini2 (talk) 19:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

To take those refs as though they were numbered:
 * 1) like the publicity blurb for any one week mountainous race would claim, also states that the 18 day 1984 event "could properly be described, in the modern parlance, as a ‘grand tour’", not something it asserts in relation to anythng in 2022.
 * 2) "The [singular] Women's Grand Tour", so is this asserting that the longer. more established Giro Donne is not a GT?  Or just using a phrase lazily for effect? (I suspect the latter).
 * 3) The quote you make seems to be saying that it lacks a key element to be considered a GT, not that it is one.
 * 4) Possibly a genuine claim of the status, or is it making a distinction in categorising it as a "women's grand tour"?
 * 5) Any article that describes the Giro Donne (began on 30th June) as the 'first Grand Tour of the year', when the men's Giro started on 6th May does not merit serious consideration.
 * 6) You discount this yourself.
 * 7) Again there is a distinction of "Women's Grand Tours": same publication is happy to use the phrase with no mention at all of the Giro Donne in summarising the Grand Tours: for example here and here.
 * 8) The Guardian has in the past referred to only male events as Grand Tours, but revised this after a reader's letter complaining that Nicole Cooke, not Wiggins, should be recognised as the first British GT winner.  While the Guardian is my personal newspaper of choice, I would suggest that it is making a point, "soft campaigning" in its use of the term.
 * And this without calling up innumerable sites that use the term 'Grand Tour' exclusively in relation to the male events.
 * I think the case for claiming that these very valued, respected and welcome women's events are widely considered to be grand tours is far from proven. Kevin McE (talk) 12:54, 3 August 2022 (UTC)


 * That's a fair response, albeit think it's reasonable to note that some media outlets are using the term, especially more recently.
 * What would you suggest for the article, with a subheading linking to these 'very valued, respected and welcome' events? Turini2 (talk) 14:58, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The final paragraph of the current lead obviously needs updating, but is, I think, along the right lines.The three Grand Tours are men's events, and no three week races exist on the women's road cycling circuit. The Giro Rosa, the ten stage Italian road race for women is the only race on the current women's circuit treated as broadly equivalent to a Grand Tour, although and the Tour de France Femmes will be held from 2022. are sometimes considered to be equivalent races for women.  (Strikethrough=removed, underline= new)
 * Alternatively, an italicised hat note saying something like This article deals with the three men's races traditionally referred to as the Grand Tours.  For the women's tours of Italy and France, see Giro Donne and Tour de France Femmes respectively.  I would propose the removal of that last paragraph of the lead. Kevin McE (talk) 17:30, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Attempt at a new lead / subsection II

 * In light of the above - how's this for the lead? Provides a little more context about the history of the women's events.
 * The three Grand Tours are men's events, and as of 2022, no three week races currently exist on the women's road cycling circuit. The Giro Donne and the Tour de France Femmes are sometimes considered to be equivalent races for women - taking place over shorter, smaller routes around a week in length. The Giro Donne was first held in 1988, and various women's Tour de France events have taken place since 1984 - with the Tour de France Femmes having its first edition in 2022.
 * You could then have this information in a subheading including a short discussion about the phrase Grand Tour - something like:
 * As of 2022, no three week races currently exist on the women's road cycling circuit. Historically, women have participated in three week long stages races, with various women's Tour de France events taking place since 1984.  In the contemporary UCI Women's World Tour, the Giro Donne (first held in 1988) and the Tour de France Femmes (first held in 2022) are sometimes considered to be equivalent races for women - taking place over shorter, smaller routes around a week in length. The Giro Donne is generally run in late June / early July and the Tour de France Femmes is held in late July following the men's Tour de France.
 * Some media and teams have referred to these women's events as Grand Tours, as they are the biggest events in the women's calendar. However, they are not three week stage races, they do not have a special status in the rules and regulations of cycling (such as more points in the UCI Women's World Tour, or allowing an increased number of stages), and some have argued that the races need to visit high mountains (such as the Alps) or contain a time trial to be considered an equivalent event. 
 * Campaign groups such as Le Tour Entier and Cyclists Alliance continue to push organisers and the UCI to allow for longer stage races, as well as to improve the quality and economic stability of the women's peloton to allow for three week long races in future.  In May 2023, the Challenge by La Vuelta stage race will increase in length to 7 days, and be renamed 'La Vuelta Femenina'. 


 * Not sure where the La Vuelta Femenina bit fits best in that paragraph, but hey. I think this is a reasonable balance section, given what you've said above - covering a brief history, why they are/are not considered Grand Tour events etc Turini2 (talk) 08:24, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

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