Talk:Grandmaster (martial arts)

teacher not master
After a search on the internet I have found that the martial arts do not really use the term Grandmaster (except in advertising to Americans). More often terms are used that translate better as teacher. I'll do some research and attemt to update the article. The original information in the article is unsourced and I can find nothing to back up the intro at all.-Adimovk5 23:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)


 * This is true. "Grandmaster" is a western convention in MA circles (primarily to impress the punters, IMO), used to translate Chinese or Japanese terms that usually literally mean "ancestor", "founder" or "older teacher". --Bradeos Graphon 17:43, 2 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If I may contribute my $0.02. In the internal martial arts circles that I'm rather close to, there are usually one or two patriarchs of the specific arts who is/are always referred to as "Grandmaster".  To me, the term is legitimate when I see it under this light.  I don't agree that it is an Americanism. It may, however, be a "Westernism". Panicpgh (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Not a good definition
Nate1841, this is the reason I changed the way it was written: To me, the first paragraph of the article should give a definiton of the term. But the very first sentence says that it has "changed in meaning" and that "the use of the term is not traditional". This is not a definition, it is a qualification. Any qualifying statements should come after a definition is given. The tenor of the rest of the paragraph is the same.

Bottom line: The first paragraph does not satisfy a reader's curiosity of what a Grandmaster is at all. So what is a proper definition of the term without having to read the entire article?

I tried to rework the paragraph to drive it in the direction of giving it a definitional form, in the hopes that someone would contribute an actual definition. I did not expect the (admittedly, minor) effort to be negated completely.

Panicpgh (talk) 23:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I missed you reply, I have re-phrased it to describe how it it used first better?--Nate1481 10:13, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

There is a more traditional usage and criteria than mentioned in this article. Traditionally in Chinese martial arts, a Sifu not only has studied but has students and teaches them in his/her own school. A Master is one who has taught students long enough to have students leave and become a sifu(s). A Grandmaster has multiple generations of sifu under them, e.g., their student becomes a sifu, that new sifu's student becomes a sifu - two generations beneath the grandmaster. Under this criteria, it is truly a rare event that one becomes a Grandmaster. Just another $0.02s. I did not want to add anything prior to discussing this aspect with those involved. I have also seen Nate1481's work and have respect for his neutrality. Clftruthseeking (talk) 02:33, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Chinese usage
I believe that when refering to the chinese usage of "師傅 or 師父; Pinyin: shīfu, Cantonese: si1 fu6" is more like master or instructor". Whilst the direct translation of "Lao Shi (老師 lǎo shī Cantonese lou5 si1)" is elder teacher, it is most used when just referring to a teacher. 202.74.163.75 (talk) 11:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * If you could re-write that section to include this that would be great. --Nate1481 13:00, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Requested move
Grandmaster (martial arts) → Ranking in the martial arts – This article has evolved into something more than its original title and in fact no longer reflects that title. A name change and a bit re-write seems in order.Peter Rehse (talk) 14:49, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I trimmed the article to make it more in line with the title. Removed the move request.Peter Rehse (talk) 09:53, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Trimmed some more - not the place to discuss all ranks and permutations.Peter Rehse (talk) 13:24, 28 July 2015 (UTC)