Talk:Grandpa Son Gohan

Should Grandpa Gohan be considered "Son Gohan?"
Son Gohan is his real name right? On all other articles, he is referred to as "Grandpa" Gohan, but that is NOT his name, in fact, only Goku referrs to him as that. Should it be changed? Majinvegeta
 * Atomic and I recently had that same discussion. If it weren't for the fact that a Son Gohan article already exsists, I would have no problem changing it. But you do make a good point. The only person who refers to (this) Gohan as "Grandpa" is Goku. But putting Son Gohan in the links on other pages, such as the Goku article, when one Son Gohan leads to his son and the other Son Gohan leads to his grandfather might cause a bit of confusion. -- Sasuk e  -kun  27  00:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say for a while now. I hope what Sasuke-kun said cleared some things up.-- S U  I  T 42 00:52, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Couldn't we do something like: (Grandpa) Son Gohan? Then people know for sure that we aren't talking about the same one, but we would still have his real name. Majinvegeta


 * I doubt it.-- S U  I  T 42 01:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Grandpa Gohan has just appeared in Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 and his name in that appeared as Grandpa Gohan instead of Son Gohan so the official people with their official translations refer to him as Grandpa Gohan. Actually, everyone refers to him as Grandpa Gohan. Although technically his name is Son Gohan, no one ever refers to him as this. I think it should be kept as Grandpa GohanSimondrake 07:03, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Strange...
The article says: "(as Gokū explained to Bulma, Yamcha, Puar and Oolong what happens when he looks at a full moon while they were held in prison at Pilaf's castle)". But Goku doesn't know what happens when he looks to the full moon!!! --151.38.18.125 09:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes he does. It was explained to him off-screen by Gohan before the series even starts. // Sasuke  -kun  27  12:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, Goku doesn't know, he knows about the moon and the "monster" that comes out, but not the fact that it's him who is the monster. Majin Vegeta
 * He only found out that he was a monster at the sight of the full moon when he first fought Vegeta on Earth. (Me | The Article) 04:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Please, use consensus to determine things like this. See your talk page, PLDB. Yuser31415 07:34, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I've closed the survey for you again Yuser31415. Hopefully, no one else will argue with the results again. (Me | The Article) 00:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

-

Requested move from: Grandpa Gohan → Grandpa Son Gohan

 * ''Add  * Support  if you agree with the move; or add   * Oppose  if you disagree with the move; your arguement must be followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using four tildes like this ~ . (Me | The Article) 17:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Support: The only obvious reason why I even began this move is because the name is wrong. Goku got his surname from the one person that discovered him and raised him, Son Gohan. To end all discrepencies, Grandpa Son Gohan seems fitting to put an end to which name is right or wrong, and that is to combine his name together. (Me | The Article) 17:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Support. I've been arguing the same thing the entire time, Son Gohan is Grandpa Gohan's real name. eg: Goku's article is actually "Son Goku", not just Goku (his most common name). There's no reason to why Grandpa Son Gohan should be any different. Majin Vegeta


 * Oppose- Per comments above, and a discussion I had with Sasuke-kun27-- SU IT  42 23:33, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - Per above.JRP 01:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I already had this discussion above and I don't feel like repeting myself. // Poetic  Decay  23:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments below if you like:

Now this isn't rocket science. Grandpa Gohan's nihongo (Japanese written name) would be Gohan Son (孫悟飯). Yes, he is popularly and commonly known according to WP:NAME as "Grandpa Gohan" mostly because of fans, by Goku calling him that in the manga/anime, etc. But let's face it, the name is completely wrong. "But a Son Gohan already exists" you must be saying. Two reasons: one, this old man came first in the series before the kid Gohan. And two, just as I've already said in the poll, a combined name of "Grandpa" and "Son Gohan" seems fit to have the correct and agreeable name. Any other thoughts people? (Me | The Article) 17:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree, thanks Majin Vegeta


 * Power level, is setting up polls all you can do? There are other ways to discuss things you know-- SU IT  42 23:26, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Must you repeat that everywhere you go Super Atomic SUIT? If you have other ways of discussing this, please list them right here in this survey. I did begin a discussion too ya know, not just that poll... (Me | The Article) 23:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever... Let me know the next time you start a poll.-- SU IT  42 00:35, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, no. Why should I let you know if you're gonna find out anyways? I know that you watch me constantly. How else do you happen to be at the same time and place as I am at times {such as Morgan Matthews (Boy Meets World) remember?} Anyways, my point is that you watch me and know exactly when I'm being watched by some people. So then, I don't have to let you know that I'm gonna make a poll/discussion unless I'm actually chatting with you on the spot. Okay? (Me | The Article) 02:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't really remember that... When was it? Perhaps I did that watching you bit then, but I ain't now-- SU IT  42 02:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Whatever, I think that we should concentrate more on this rename/move rather than continuing to trash talk to each other. (Me | The Article) 02:48, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah..-- SU IT  42 02:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Honestly, SUIT, I know I can't force you to change your vote or anything, but why do you and JzG want the article to stay as Grandpa Gohan? You know that Goku got his last name from his Grandpa, right? And ya know his actual name is 孫 悟飯, the romaji would be Son Gohan, right? Even though a Son Gohan already exist, don't cha think that he deserves the credit of being at least a Grandpa Son Gohan? I think you've already seen my reasons why earlier above though. (Me | The Article) 03:10, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You have good points, but my vote will stay as it is-- SU IT  42 03:53, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment on his real name (Grandpa Son Gohan)
Well, it turns out the poll wasn't a good idea by some. In any case, I think I'm gonna request the name change to Grandpa Son Gohan now since it seems that users' JzG and Super Atomic SUIT didn't even give actual reasons pertaining as to why the move shouldn't be so. Majin Vegeta and I have given our good reasons. Any other real comments, concerns, or discrepencies from anyone before I actually request the move/rename? Really, why shouldn't the move be from Grandpa Gohan → Grandpa Son Gohan? Come on, any other thoughts here people before I request it? (Me | The Article) 16:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What the hell? Discussions don't last for two days, they're supposed to be at least five. And when you don't have a clear winner, you don't change the name anyway. We had two supports and two opposes. Since when does that determine that the article should be moved? Honestly, I have no idea what the hell what you were thinking when you moved the article, but I'm changing it back until the discussion lasts for a while longer and we have a clear winner. // Poetic  Decay  20:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't close the survey. It was someone else. Besides, no one else disagreed. What do you vote for? (Me | The Article) 21:28, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Seems that he didn't bother arguing back so I'm reclosing this poll/discussion. (Me | The Article) 00:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Move without concensus
What the heck? You have three oppose votes to two support votes, yet you decide to move the page anyway? JRP 03:31, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The article is moved back again. Don't start a poll and then ignore the outcome to suit your own views. This was a controversial move. Was it even listed on WP:RM? (I didn't see it archived there, but I may have missed it.) JRP 03:39, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh gosh... THERE WAS NO MORE POLL! Simple. It was closed by User:Yuser31415 and no one else argued about the move, so that's why it was done. (Me | The Article) 04:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Not like you really gave anyone enough time to respond, especially for folks that did respond to the poll and wouldn't have thought they needed to look again immediately. As it is, this is a apparently a clear case of you not getting the result you hoped for and then deciding to go ahead and do it anyway. That's not very wiki-friendly, is it? JRP 16:29, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Dude, I've already said my reason for it. NO ONE else argued a reason about it. Except for you and someone else. First off, get over it, and let's discuss it at the bottom, k? (Me | The Article) 18:05, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

"Son Gohan", "Grandpa Gohan", "Gohan Sr"...
The character's name is "Son Gohan", but the fact that there is another Son Gohan (who is clearly more well known) shows us that some disambiguation must occur. The problem arises with which character should get to keep "Son Gohan". The senior Gohan predates Goku's son both in-universe (that is, Gohan Sr was born and named before Goku's son was born and named) and in print (Gohan Sr was first seen in episode 73, and had been referenced long before that, while Goku's son first appears almost 80 episodes later). Further, Goku states that he named his son after his adoptive grandfather - so it's clear who should get "Son Gohan" if they were eaqually well known. But, Gohan Sr is far less well known (and is far less seen) than Goku's son. That makes the whole decision harder.

Further, what the other character should or could be called is difficult to determine as well. "Gohan Senior"? "Gohan Junior"? "Gohan II"? All are accurate representations of the name. I feel it best, when in doubt, to use the credit list.

Here's some cast credits I swiped from Kanzentai.com
 * あずさ欣平 Azusa Kinpei
 * 孫悟飯 Son Gohan (DBZ: SP1)


 * 阪脩 Saka Osamu
 * 孫悟飯 Son Gohan (DB: 73 – DBZ: 32) [Final]
 * aka:孫悟飯じいさん Grandpa [Son] Gohan
 * aka:仮面の男 Masked Man

I am unsure about the exact meaning of the listing though. If, as my first guess is, this listing means that Gohan Sr was indeed credited as "Grandpa Son Gohan" (at least once, assumedly after Goku's son's appearance) then that indeed is a viable name to use. If that is the name, I believe we should use "Grandpa Son Gohan" and "Son Gohan".

I'll check back with more information as I get it.--DesireCampbell 04:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Wow, I didn't think there was that much info. to say about the old man and kid Gohan. Also, if you ask me, Gohan Sr. makes it sound like he's kid Gohan's dad, so that should immediately be excluded as a possible name. Masked Man (仮面の男) is outta the question cause it ain't even close to his name. ((Gohan Son|孫悟飯|Son Gohan)) is already taken by a more popular character. It seems that Grandpa Son Gohan is the best one here. (Me | The Article) 05:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Point of clarification: I assume that "Masked man" was used in the episode where he comes back from the dead as one of Baba's "five champions". In that episode he wore a rabbit mask until the very end of the fight. --DesireCampbell 05:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Bit of an update, Babblefish translates じいさん as "grandfather", but I'm trying to get a native speaker to explain the kana for me (I assume it's some combination of 'old' and 'man'). I'm also trying to get someone to check how Daimao translates it in Goku's speech. --DesireCampbell 05:20, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Since this is no longer considered an untroversal move, and Grandpa Gohan is now move-protected, please make sure you follow the guidelines in Requested moves when you decide on a name you'd like to advance. JRP 16:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I love it when Desire gets his facts straight on the talk page when discussing a character's real name. This is how people are convinced and this is how I originally wanted to do this. (Me | The Article) 18:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Bit of an update: got some information on the "grandpa" bit.
 * "Jiisan, or the more polite Ojiisan, is often used to mean "Grandfather", although it can be used to refer to an elderly man who is not actually one's Grandfather as well (think how one might call someone "gramps", even if he's not their Grandfather... except more polite). I believe Goku uses Jicchan (alternative romanization "jitchan"; kana: じっちゃん), which is a pretty informal and kind of cute way of saying it, so Grandpa or Grampa would work.
 * While Son Gohn-jiisan could be taken to mean "Grandfather[or Grandpa] Son Gohan", it could also be taken to mean something like "Old Man Gohan" as well. I think it's well implied that Goku uses it to mean "Grandpa", however, and not just as a term for an elderly man."

So, he's credited as "Grandfather" (or "old man") Gohan, but that's not what he's called by Goku. This lends more credibility to "Grandfather" Gohan (used in actual production credits) then "Grandpa" Gohan (used by a single character in speech as an affectionate term). I'm still unsure what the best course of action is, and would like to get some more information (like what Daimao translates jicchan as).


 * On another note, I'm concerned with how the given-family names are arranged. I know that the WP:Anime Project specifies that characters be listed "given_name family_name" (except when writing kana or the romanji immediately following kana), but the Japanese manual of style says to use the opposite for pre-Meiji era figures. I'm unsure how the later relates to fictional or mythic characters. Specifically, Sun Wukong, Goku's namesake. (Ostensibly) Because Sun Wukong is a pre-Meiji historical figure, and Goku uses the exact same name, both articles use the same name structure. This means Goku is rendered as "Son Goku" instead of "Goku Son" (as the WP:Anime guidelines would suggest). There seems little problem with this, but other articles seem to use "Gohan Son" or "Goten Son". While this seems fine by itself, it strikes me as potentially confusing to anyone new to the series. "Son Goku has two children; Gohan Son and Goten Son". I'm unsure of what to do in this situation. --DesireCampbell 19:24, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Heh, a bit more info: Clyde Mandelin (I'd forgotten that Daimao didn't to DB) translates 'jicchan' as "grandpa" while referring to Son Gohan. --DesireCampbell 19:43, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

I think Grampa Son Gohan is the best out there, it's also the most clear, who would look for Gohan Senior when every body calls him Grampa Gohan-Dark Dragon Flame 02:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

If by "everybody" you mean "fans", well, I'd say you're probably right - but most fans probably think Kid Buu is the strongest Buu too. If you mean "everyone" as in "everyone in the show", then no, noone but Goku calls him anything but "Gohan" or "Son Gohan". In fact, Goku uses the same word to describe Kame sennin as well (though it probably means more "old man" than "grandpa").

But Goku's son obviously needs Son Gohan more, so we need to disambiguate this page. I think "Grandfather Son Gohan", as he's credited (not as "grandpa" as is only used in speech) is probably best.

I just remembered the daizenshuu has a character list with both Goahns. "Grandpa" must be given a unique name there, I'll try and track down that info as well. --DesireCampbell 03:35, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

By everybody I mean fans and people who just go with the flow of them, they unfortunaly are a lot of people, we that know better call him Son Gohan, Grandfather Son Gohan seems perfect, a redirect of Grampa Gohan will be required also-Dark Dragon Flame 05:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think a redirect from 'Grandfather Gohan', 'Grandpa Gohan', and 'Grandpa Son Gohan' would be prudent, but perhaps unnecessary. But redirects are cheap, and we might as well cover our bases :) --DesireCampbell 05:55, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Update and clarifications: Goku uses じいちゃん (Jiichan), not じっちゃん (Jicchan / Jitchan). It's an informal way of saying おじいさん (ojiisan), which means, roughly, "elderly man" and has been translated (in this series) as "old timer" and "grandpa".

おじいさん (ojiisan) - formal じいさん (jiisan) - less formal じいちゃん (jiichan) - 'cute', informal

So, the credits apparently use じいさん (jiisan), which is a slightly informal "grandfather", but even the most formal おじいさん (ojiisan) could be translated (depending on context) as "grandpa" or "gramps". Further, the official Funi translation (by Tomato) for the similar term じいちゃん (jiichan) is "grandpa". I think it's clear the article should be renamed "Grandpa Son Gohan". --DesireCampbell 02:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested Move
I don't want to say this twice. Please, use standard methods of discussion instead of opening a poll. Relevant policy is WP:NOT a democracy, and the essay Polls are evil applies here too. No polls, please. Debate and discuss. Contact me if you disagree with my decision to close this. Yuser31415 20:00, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move
Grandpa Gohan → Grandpa Son Gohan — Adding the family name 'Son' to the character's article title is standard practice. Also, using 'Grandpa' as disambiguation from the other Son Gohan. DesireCampbell 16:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey

 * Add  # Support   or   # Oppose   on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~ .

Survey - Support votes

 * 1) As I've explained immediately above, this article needs some disambiguation from Son Gohan, everyone seems happy with "Grandpa" (used in speech by Goku in the series, used in credits), we need only add the family name now. --DesireCampbell 16:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * 2) I support this move. The use of "Grandpa" Son Gohan diferentiates and disambiguates this title from Goku's son, Son Gohan. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:23, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Survey - Oppose votes

 * 1) Read above. //  Poetic  Decay  16:45, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Add any additional comments:

What the hell? You're kidding, right? We just closed a poll two or three days ago. I have half a mind to remove this one right now. We had a poll, the decision was not to move the article, end of story. You guys really need to know when to quit. // Poetic  Decay  16:50, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I hadn't seen it. Reading over it now, it seems rather... odd. Noone who opposed the move gave any reason. They just opposed it. There seems to have been some disagreement over whether the article should include "Grandpa", but there's absolutely no reason why the article name shouldn't include his full name, as every other article about a person, fictional or no, does.
 * Do you have any reasons why the article shouldn't include the surname "Son"? --DesireCampbell 16:59, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * To be completely honest, I could care less what becomes of the article name. (and before anyone even thinks about it, that sentence does not warrant a move). But as far as I recall, no one has ever called him Grandpa Son Gohan. // Poetic  Decay  17:14, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Uh huh, no one has called him "Grandpa Son Gohan". The only character to refer to him as anything but "Son Gohan" or "Gohan" is Goku. But that's almost completely irrelevant here. The other Son Gohan calls Goku "father". Should his article be renamed "father"? Or how about "Son-kun" as Bulma calls him? How about merely "Goku" as most characters refer to him as? How about "Kakkarot"? or simply "Son", or "stupid monkey". You don't seem to understand that an article name should be the character's name -not just "what he's called in the series". The character's name is Son Gohan - there's no debate about that. But because we already have a Son Gohan, this Gohan needs to be called something else. He is credited as " 孫悟飯じいさん " which means "Son Gohan jiisan". じいさん (jiisan) can be easily and readily translated into "grandpa", and there's little argument about using "grandpa" in the article title.
 * The argument that the title shouldn't include "Son" because noone calls him "Grandpa Son Gohan" is utterly ridiculous. --DesireCampbell 17:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It seems that these people don't even have a reason why they oppose the move. Are they just trying to antagonize us Desire? Isn't there a rule for that? Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sure they're doing what they think is right - they just haven't really thought about it. I'm sure if anyone actually thinks about it, they come to see Grandpa Son Gohan as the appropriate article name. --DesireCampbell 17:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move, etc.
I removed the request to move this page from Requested moves. It's clear to me from this talk page that the move request is not, in fact, uncontroversial. Generally, page move proposals for which there is some opposition are handled by means of a survey that lasts for five days, and which is closed, not by counting "votes", but by evaluating the arguments made during the course of it. In this case, the surveys keep getting shut down, so we'll do it the old-fashioned way.

Now, I see above DesireCampbell and Power level stating that those opposing the move have given no reason for opposition. I see further above, in the top section of this page, an explanation for why some people think Grandpa Gohan is the best title. In particular, I find the comment by Simondrake to be somewhat compelling:

"Grandpa Gohan has just appeared in Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 and his name in that appeared as Grandpa Gohan instead of Son Gohan so the official people with their official translations refer to him as Grandpa Gohan. Actually, everyone refers to him as Grandpa Gohan. Although technically his name is Son Gohan, no one ever refers to him as this. I think it should be kept as Grandpa Gohan"

On the other side, the chief argument for moving the page is that the character's correct name is "Son Gohan", but since there's another Son Gohan, we can use the word "Grandpa" for disambiguation.

Between those two arguments, I tend to agree that the article should be kept at its current title. My reasoning is this: We have information about a source outside of Wikipedia referring to the character as "Grandpa Gohan". We could disambiguate from the other Son Gohan in some way, but our usual method of disambiguation is to add a parenthetical descriptor after the name, something like Son Gohan (Grandpa). Rearranging those words into Grandpa Son Gohan seems to me more like creating a neologism than simply disambiguating.

The relevant guideline in this case is, I believe, WP:COMMONNAME. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:20, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * From WP:Anime:
 * "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
 * That is, what the distribution company (or if possible the original production company) officially states the original name to be. In this case, Son Gohan is his real name but a more popular character has that name. In this case, "Grandpa Son Gohan" sounds more appropiate because he is called by his grandson, Goku, Grandpa Gohan in both the Dragon Ball manga and anime. So for that matter, his complete article name should most likely be Grandpa Son Gohan.

To clear up a bit more confusion: The WP:MOS-JP and WP:Anime guidelines state we should use official romanizations if they aren't messed up. "Son Gohan" is a perfectly fine romanization for 孫 悟飯 - it's just not the only one. So, adding Grandpa next to it completes the title. Understandable? Power level (Dragon Ball) 21:39, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe I understand your point, but I don't see how you're reconciling the apparent contradiction between WP:Anime and WP:COMMONNAME. -GTBacchus(talk) 21:56, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * According to WP:Anime:
 * "If several articles share the same name then use the Wikipedia page naming conventions".
 * While that is true, it does say to disambiguate an article of this caliber like so: Son Gohan (Grandpa)
 * The only problem with that title is that it looks a little wierd. Hold on, when DesireCampbell is back on, he'll explain why it should be Grandpa Son Gohan, k? Believe me, he is an expert when it comes to romanizing Japanese character names, believe me... Power level (Dragon Ball) 22:13, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Again, Power Level, I'm not an expert - I simply know how and where to look for help when doing it. I appreciate the complement, but I'm no more skilled than anyone else here. I simply know that looking at all the information before making a decision is the best thing to do. --DesireCampbell 23:40, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

When I added the MR to the 'uncontroversial' section, I hadn't seen the previous MR (yeah, I don't know how I missed it either :P ). I based the 'uncontroversial-ness' on the fact that at least three other people were discussing and seemed to agree with the name change. That, and the MR was only to add the character's family name - I didn't think such a think could be controversial to simply complete a character's name. The only controversial part, I thought, was the addition of "Grandpa". But we have discussed the reasoning for such at length, and I have given ample reason as to why I believe it to be the best choice (foremost because he is listed as such in the ending credits). Everyone involved in the discussion seemed to agree with me, and the fact that it was already at Grandpa Gohan led me to believe such a name had been accepted. If PoeticDecay or Yuser31415 have any specific problems, they should discuss them with us. Yuser31415's closure of the poll is completely without warrant - and I, for one, will not stand for such irresponsible action. If he has not responded by now I will un-close the poll. If there are to be repercussions for it I, solely, will take responsibility for it. --DesireCampbell 23:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Please, DesireCampbell, I would suggest not getting hung up on whether or not we run a poll, or whether or not it was closed early, with or without "warrant". The important question here is what the article should be called, and it really doesn't matter how the discussion is formatted, as long as it happens.  A couple of us have asked Yuser31415 to explain his early closure of the poll, but simply re-opening it is not a step that's likely to lead to dispute resolution.  It's like Aikido: don't resist directly, but roll with it.
 * The only "repercussions" of re-opening the poll would be that we waste time arguing over whether or not a poll was closed according to proper procedures, which is at least two steps removed from improving the encyclopedia. Instead, let's just talk about the name.
 * I generally follow WP:COMMONNAME as my guide in thinking about pagemoves. Many topics have one name that is "correct" or "official", and another name that is most commonly recognized.  We tend to prefer the commonly recognized name for article titles.  Now, this character could be called Son Gohan, Grandpa Gohan, or Grandpa Son Gohan.  My understanding from the discussion above is that Son Gohan is his correct name, but he is more commonly referred to as Grandpa Gohan.  It is also my understanding that the character is not referred to in any context as Grandpa Son Gohan.  I can see two solutions here: We leave the article at Grandpa Gohan, as the most common name, or else we move the article to Son Gohan (---) with some appropriate disambiguator in parentheses.  I don't see how Grandpa Son Gohan is consistent with our naming conventions; it rather seems to invent a new name for the character.  Does what I'm saying make sense? -GTBacchus(talk) 23:15, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I will resist my urge to re-open the poll. For now. I am just irked that suck reckless and ignorant actions are allowed. Closing a poll for such 'non-reasons' is tantamount to vandalism.

As for the name, there are indeed three options:
 * 1) Son Gohan - the problem here, is that there is another, far more important character with the same name.
 * 2) Grandpa Gohan - the problem here, is that the name is incomplete. His name is 'Son Gohan', and it is important for an article to be named properly. We don't name the other Gohan's article simply 'Gohan', even though he is almost never referred to as such. It is against convention to name someone based on what they are called instead of as what their name actually is. Goku is referred to as simply "Goku" the majority of the time, but his article is still under "Son Goku". He is also referred to repeatedly as "father", "Goku-san", "Goku-sa", Son", "Son-kun", "Kakkarot", "clown", "stupid monkey"... yet we don't name his article based on that. We use his real name. In fact, this 'Son Gohan' is only ever referred to as "Grandpa" by Goku, anyone else (Kame sennin, Gyu Mao, among others) refers to him as 'Gohan' or 'Son Gohan'.
 * 3) Grandpa Son Gohan - the problem here is that it seems to defy convention. 'Grandpa' is not part of his proper name. But, to reconcile that fact, he is officially credited as "Grandpa Son Gohan" ("Son Gohan jiisan") in Dragon Ball Z episodes in which he appears (in DB he is credited as either 'Son Gohan' or 'Masked man'). I think that, because it is used in an official capacity in original productions it should be allowed. This is, indeed, different from convention but I believe it improves the article - and that's one of the other conventions.

I believe that using Grandpa Son Gohan is the best choice. --DesireCampbell 23:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I understand your argument. My only issue is with this: "It is against convention to name someone based on what they are called instead of as what their name actually is."  The convention spelled out at WP:COMMONNAME is that we do precisely that.  This is why, for example, we have an article called Eminem, and a redirect at Marshall Mathers, even though the latter is his actual name.
 * In this case, we're dealing with a fictional character, and the "common name" that we would want to use is not what other fictional characters call him, but how this character is commonly referred to by real human beings. What do fans call him?  Surely not "father" or "stupid monkey"?  How is he named in credits, fan-oriented literature, etc.?  That will determine the "common name" that we should use in Wikipedia. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:46, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I had not read WP:COMMONNAME, though I'll peruse it now. What do fans call him? Almost assuredly 'Son Gohan' or simply 'Gohan'. I can't imagine anyone carrying on a conversation about him while constantly referring to him as 'Grandpa'. I obviously cannot speak for all fans, but if bringing up the character, I would say "Son Gohan, Goku's adoptive grandfather, ..." - I would find it very odd if anyone continuously referred to him as "grandpa". That said, I know noone refers to him as "Grandpa Son Gohan" in full. How is he named in credits? In Dragon Ball he is listed as "Son Gohan" (悟飯じいさん), or "Masked Man" (仮面の男) (for those episodes where his identity was hidden) - in Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT he is credited as "Grandpa Son Gohan" (悟飯じいさん) Fan-oriented literature? I don't think I can give a confident answer on that. I don't read any Dragon Ball fan fiction, nor do I frequent many fan websites on the subject. Even on the websites I do peruse, he comes up infrequently. He's not a very important character - and there's not a lot to talk about, really. Further, the majority of Dragon Ball fan websites I've seen are written terribly, absolutely terribly - there are a few respectable fansites, but even they don't mention the character much. --DesireCampbell 00:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I take it the credits tend to be in Japanese?
 * Just thinking aloud for a moment... we can't call use what would be the ideal title, Son Gohan, because that name primarily refers to the more important character... so we're thinking of Grandpa Gohan, which might be common, but is incorrect; Grandpa Son Gohan, which is perfectly correct, but not common; or possibly Son Gohan (disambiguator), with the right choice of disambiguator...
 * How about "Son Gohan, Sr."? No, maybe....  "Son Gohan the Elder"?  Those sound silly, and are probably without precedent.  I'm about to be offline for a few hours.  I think it's fair to hear from someone who prefers Grandpa Gohan before making a decision - that's what Yuser31415's point must have been in closing the poll, which makes it so easy to forego discussion.  It may come down to whether or not a WikiProject's naming conventions supersede project-wide naming conventions.
 * The funny thing is the utter triviality of the decision we're trying to make, and how, if it were any less trivial, it would probably also be a lot less complicated. Well... I find it kind of funny, anyway. -GTBacchus(talk) 01:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Indeed. The suggestion is only that his family name be added to his given name in the title. It's such a small thing that I can't think of any example where such would be contested. It's not like we're trying to elongate his name with initials or middle names, or surnames, we're just adding his family name. Just like with "Weird Al" Yankovic (or probably others, I can't be bothered to check :P)
 * The question is "does WP:Anime supersede other guidelines?". I believe it does. I must, or why bother having a project? --DesireCampbell 02:54, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

His Complete Name

 * Grandpa Son Gohan seems like the best name here because simply of these two explanations:
 * 1. First off, his real name on the Wikipedia main article would be either Son Gohan or Grandpa Gohan. Since a more common character named Son Gohan already exists, that name can't be utilized. Yes, he is popularly known as Grandpa Gohan, but that isn't his correct and romanized name (and we should use romanized names whenever possible according to WP:Anime). Therefore, because of this, a perfect and uncontroversial combination of these two names would be Grandpa Son Gohan.
 * To clarify: WP:Anime indicates we should first use official romanizations if available, or use dub names - if neither are available, then we are to use standard romanization. Still, the point I believe you are trying to make is that we should use the original term and not an "official" dub term. But here both and official romanization and dub name would indicate "Son Gohan".
 * Though it should be noted that "Grandpa" and not "Grandfather" or "Gramps" or "Old man" is the official translation (by Tomato) on Funimation's dual language DVDs --DesireCampbell 00:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * 2. And, as DesireCampbell pointed out, his name on the ending credits of (one or all of) the Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, Dragon Ball GT anime credits is read as either Son Gohan Jiisan, Son Gohan no Ojisan or Son Gohan Ojiisan. Regardless, all names translate in English as Grandpa Son Gohan.
 * To clarify: he is listed in the credits for only the episodes in which he appears. In Dragon Ball he is listed as "Son Gohan" (悟飯じいさん), or "Masked Man" (仮面の男) (for those episodes where his identity was hidden) - in Dragon Ball Z and Dragon Ball GT he is credited as "Grandpa Son Gohan" (悟飯じいさん). --DesireCampbell 00:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

If there is any thing at all that I have said wrong here DesireCampbell (and to the administrator who is watching this page), please point out what info. is wrong in my explanations. Thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 23:53, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I've added my clarifications above --DesireCampbell 00:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for responding. So I noticed that our arguements weren't too different from each other, huh? Power level (Dragon Ball) 00:33, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I think I understand the points you're making, but I still don't see how either of you is reconciling the apparent conflict between WP:Anime and WP:COMMONNAME. The principle I generally apply in pagemoves is "what is the name by which the topic is most commonly referred to in English language sources?"  In this case, it seems that we would want to consider any offcial English-language release, as well as how he's commonly referred to by fans.  I'm not against the name Grandpa Son Gohan, I would just like to know that we're not introducing a novel string of English words, based on our own translation of "悟飯じいさん".
 * It would also be good to get some comments from those who previously opposed the move. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with GTBacchus. As much as I appreciate DesireCampbell's translation efforts on this and other articles, disassembling the Japanese original to come up with the "most accurate" (according to a fan) translation is just original research. My reading of WP:NAME makes me feel as if the stress is on what the most common name is. Looking at Google, never a perfect answer, but reliable has Grandpa Gohan beating out Grandpa Son Gohan. As it has been proven again and again how inconsistent the "official" translation are between even the subtitle and dub track of the DVDs, using the Google test is the best way we have. JRP 01:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Check out what happens if you add quotation marks to that search: "Grandpa Gohan" vs "Grandpa Son Gohan". -GTBacchus(talk) 01:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps something like (Grandpa) Son Gohan would be more appropriate. I agree, common names are not always accurate ones, And we even are violation of the Wikipedia English name references anyway considering that Son Goku should be Goku Son, since in English, the family name comes after the individual's name. --Majinvegeta 01:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * If we're actually naming the Dragon Ball related characters by their common English names, tell me why Krillin's article is still titled Kuririn, Tien or Tienshinhan's article is still titled Tenshinhan, Frieza's article is still titled Freeza, Launch (Dragon Ball)'s article is still titled Lunch (Dragon Ball), and I can keep going on like this for a while. The point is, we're using official romanizations whenever possible and that's exactly the case for this character, as it was for those characters' too. It's not like I'm totally against Grandpa Gohan that badly, it's just that this case is very similar to the Hercule (Dragon Ball) vs. Mr. Satan case and the Bardock vs. Burdock (Dragon Ball) case. Tell me, which is more popular: Hercule or Mr. Satan? Bardock or Burdock? See the titles of those articles and tell me what names are being used. We're ONLY adding "Grandpa" to his real name (and I stress that ONLY) simply because he is commonly referred to as "Grandpa Gohan" in the series and in video games. The point is, I'm not trying to just add a whole new fan-translated name here just because we have our reasons, it's also because of this kanzentai. -->>If you notice that on the left of "Grandpa Gohan"'s seiyū, Saka Osamu, you'll see that his full name is listed as 孫悟飯じいさん, translated in the English language as Grandpa Son Gohan. Please take this into careful consideration my dear Wikipedians. Thanks! Power level (Dragon Ball) 01:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * You have a good point about the existing names. The reason they are still titled by those names is because no one has cared enough to change them. But, when the topic comes up and there's a chance to keep a WP:NAME-passing name instead of one that doesn't, it's worth talking about. If you want to put in a WP:RM for them all, based on WP:NAME, I'll support you each and every time. But, until it comes up, I think our Wikipedia-editing energies are better directed at improving articles that need it, rather than debating. JRP 02:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I remeber a super heated debate on Mr.Satan's page about that, so it's not that no one cared about it's just that it was decided that the names given should be the most accurate to the original- Dark Dragon Flame 02:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter how many debate we have on Talk pages. If you want "most accurate" names to be preferred on Wikipedia, go to Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions and propose that and have it added to the convention. Until that is done, "most accurate" isn't as important as "most common". If you'd like to propose that, please be my guest. We can postpone this discussion until you are done. JRP 02:19, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Are you serious, if we go by that we would have to rename a lot of the pages by the Funimation dub names, this is a case where accurate is above common, I don't what is the problem a redirect from Grandpa Gohan would solve everything.-Dark Dragon Flame 02:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Guidelines on Wikipedia are made by consensus. You can contribute your opinion. I'm not even saying that I disagree with you. But, if everyone did their own thing, Wikipedia wouldn't be consistent. So, until you help to change the rule, we should follow the same rules as everyone else. So, yes, "common names". If those are FUNi names, I don't know. The point is "common". JRP 02:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok then you must remember Wikipedia is not aimed only to the United States, and the U.S. is the only place I know that he is reffered as Grandpa Gohan for example in spanish he is reffered as Abuelo Son Gohan, and most translations are made loyal to the names in japanese, therefore it's really only a common here in the United States.-Dark Dragon Flame 02:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Correct. This is the English wikipedia, not the United States one. But the Google test is still valid because when you type "Grandpa" Gohan, you're naturally only going to get back English language results. (Because the other languages have different words for "Grandpa".) Therefore, that is still a valid test for the most common English-language name for the character. JRP 02:47, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That is right the only real options here are either Grampa Son Gohan or Grandfather Son Gohan. The overuse of the fan name Grandpa Gohan does deserve a redirect page but it is after all a fan name and we are aiming at being accurate, therefore it should be the most accurate translation. Not to mention what that would mean to other DB pages titles as stated in the last post-Dark Dragon Flame 02:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

JRP, again, refuses to acknowledge WP:Anime's legitimacy. That project has specific guidelines that clearly state what an anime/manga character's name should be. Also, it's important to remember that en.Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia about the US, Canada, and the UK - it's simply an English encyclopedia. Saying we should use obviously incorrect terms over correct ones is just plain crazy. But this is not the time nor the place for this argument.

Power Level makes an interesting point. To keep in sync with other DB character pages we should focus on correct terms, not simply popular ones. But, in that same vein, "grandpa" really isn't 'correct'. It's an accurate and referenceable official translation, but it's simply not his name.

Dark Dragon Flame makes an interesting point with saying 'Grandpa Gohan' is a "fan term". He's right. His name is not "Grandpa Gohan" in any version - "Grandpa" is never included in his name. So, using "Grandpa Gohan" instead of "Grandpa Son Gohan" because the latter is a "fan term" holds no weight.

Majinvegeta: No, putting it in brackets would only make it stray further from convention. With the 'Son Gohan' or 'Gohan Son' thing, it's really a matter of how to deal with Son Goku. Even though WP:Anime clearly states we should use 'Goku Son', because his name is Sun Wukong (not a pun, not based from, but is exactly the same characters) he has kept his name as 'Son Goku' (ostensibly due to WP:MOS-JP). We can't have Goku as 'Son Goku' and Gohan as 'Gohan Son', it's obviously confusing and strange. I have further arguments on the subject, but that's another matter for another time.

GTBacchus: I just read over WP:COMMONNAME, it does indeed say we should use "Grandpa Gohan" over "Grandpa Son Gohan".

After reading WP:COMMONNAME I see that "Grandpa Gohan" is the best decision that complies with that guideline, but I still hold that "Grandpa Son Gohan" would serve the page, and the community, better -and on those grounds I will ignore guidelines. --DesireCampbell 02:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Thank you for such a long and thoughtful reply. The point I am most trying to get across is that we should follow WP:COMMONNAME or work to get the standard changed. WP:IAR is a good point on a case-by-case basis, but I wouldn't want to invoke it across a class of articles. JRP 02:50, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh, and you are correct about Wikiprojects. They sit at a lower level of "official" than do WP:MOS and the similar guidelines. We should be following their recommendations when they don't conflict with something else of high authority. (This sounds like a debate of canon, doesn't it? Seems the same arguments apply. Probably, the same level of religion, too. I apologize for that, but I do really believe in WP:NAME.) JRP 02:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Long posts are a bit of a burden (I had to re edit my post three times because of edit conflicts) but it's one of the reasons I don't like polls. Everything should be discussed, votes should be used only when absolutely necessary (like when discussions cannot advance further, which is where I see this discussion going). Polls shouldn't be used to break a discussion into two groups, or to decide two hotly debated choices - they should only be used when everyone has said all they can, and have decided on what they believe is the best way to lead the article, and cannot compromise. The issue can be re-opened when new information is found or new arguments can be made.
 * What I think is important to remember, is that these guidelines aren't absolute. They're "guidelines". They are meant to be manipulated when necessary. They are written with a purpose behind them, and that purpose should be kept in mind. "This guideline was written to accomplish something - I'm I doing it?" In WP:NAME's case, I believe that the purpose is to keep articles easily accessible, and in English. Is the title in English? Can people find it easily? Specifics about using common names are meant to resolve disputes over multiple article titles that are equally correct - but how does such an argument hold up against choices when one is clearly less correct?
 * Further, imagine there were no rules. What would you say would be the best title for the topic? Why? Think through without relying on rules first, it might surprise you. --DesireCampbell 03:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I like that train of thought, and I'd like to push it one step further. Imagine there were no rules.  What would be the best name for this article in its context inside of Wikipedia?  In other words, rather than thinking on an article-by-article basis that way, think globally about the best possible Wikipedia, and what it would name articles, keeping accuracy, precision, consistency, NPOV, NOR, and the reader's experience in mind.  Then apply that global thought to the local case of this particular article.  I may have slipped, and mentioned some rules there after pretending there are none, but perhaps you see what I'm saying anyway. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Same as DesireCampbell here, I will ignore guidelines here this is an issue that should be decided by mayority-Dark Dragon Flame 03:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Heh. It'll take more than ignoring guidelines to make binding decisions by majority vote around here.  Since we aren't going to vote, and we are continuing to discuss the question in pursuit of consensus, let's look at these conflicting guidelines, perhaps in a new subsection. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Conflicting guidelines
It's entirely appropriate to ask whether a project can supersede a general guideline when it comes to naming conventions. There are cases, such as notability guidelines, where specific guidelines (such as WP:BIO, WP:CORP, etc.) certainly supersede general guidelines. Even with naming conventions, I believe the Botany people have some naming conventions that contradict WP:COMMONNAME. It's certainly not the case that general rules automatically over-rule specific ones, or vice-versa.

In this case, we've got WP:Anime, which is specific, and WP:COMMONNAME, which is very general. The principle I think of is the "principle of least astonishment", i.e., that we should try not to surprise readers by what they see at the top of the page, after entering a word into the search box, or clicking on a link. Both the project, and the general naming convention are working from the same general principle, so we might as well think directly about it.

Would a reader clicking on a Grandpa Gohan link be surprised to find herself at an article called Grandpa Son Gohan? What if the two are switched? I think people wouldn't be too freaked out either by a common (but incorrect) name, or by a correct (but uncommon) name. What would create a wrinkle in the reading experience, I would think, is if characters were named inconsistently within a particular fictional universe, i.e., some with correct names, and others with popular nicknames. What would trouble a reader slightly less (I imagine) would be if they clicked on a link with one name, and arrived at an article named with another.

The upshot of this thought experiment, for me anyway, is that I'm inclined to think that, in this case, the Wikiproject has the right to establish its own naming conventions in cases where the usual naming conventions create inconsistencies within our coverage of the topic. Anime seems to be an area where this particularly makes sense, what with all the names being translated, so I'm inclined to agree with renaming the page, per WP:Anime.

First, I'd like to see what JRP, or anyone else opposing the move, thinks about the above reasoning. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree in this case that this is the correct action. However, I don't agree in the general case. What we want (and what you suggest, in part) is consistency. But, picking and choosing rules and deciding on a case-by-case basis doesn't give us that. So, I feel we need a stronger guideline, which is why I turn to WP:NAME.


 * Let's take the three most recent articles for discussion:
 * Burdock - Name chosen is the Viz manga name (appears in one panel) and a name inconsistently used by FUNimation in some subtitles. (Sometimes they use "Bardock", sometimes "Burdock".) The dub name is "Bardock", as visible in the title of the movie Bardock: The Father of Goku. This name was chosen because it (in the opinion of some editors) better reflects the name pun. This also isn't the path of least surprise-- now we are forced to have two spellings of the same name in the movie article.
 * Mr. Satan - Name chosen is the original Japanese name, which is thankfully already in English. The VIZ manga uses "Hercule". The dub uses either "Hercule" or "Mr. Satan" depending on whether it is the edited or unedited version.
 * Grandpa Gohan - Is rarely referred to by his full name, so this is a case where we are aiming for completeness. (This is a character that appears only in flashbacks, except for the Urai Baba saga. And he spends most of the time then wearing a mask and being unknown.) But, the surname "Son" is handled differently in different media. It's given in the VIZ manga and the FUNi translated subtitles, but is omitted in both FUNi dubs.


 * So, we have three discussions that actually don't have that much in common. Once, we chose a derived name, as it is in the VIZ manga. The next time we didn't like the manga name, so we went with the uncut dub. And now, we're back using the manga name. This isn't naming for consistency. (Not to mention that we don't have the VIZ manga to fall back onto for GT-related names.)


 * So, what to do? I don't know. The fact is that most fans are familiar with the series as it is on TV and DVD. As such, the FUNi dubs would be the path of least surprise. But, we make a value judgment and decide that those names aren't "correct" enough for Wikipedia. (Nevermind the majority of the fans that have never heard of Kuririn!) Power, Desire, and others really know Dragon Ball very well. But in their efforts to be most right, I think they sometimes forget that not everyone knows as much about the series as they do. We can accomplish a lot of this with redirects, but not all of it.


 * As an aside, Toriyama was a terrible speller in English. I'm glad we don't use his "correct" names! "Red Ribon Army", "Kulilin", "Son Gokuh", etc.


 * So, in this case, there is no harm in adding the surname. But it doesn't help us to gain a common groundwork or consensus. When this is over, we still have inconsistent articles and are deciding on names based on subjective criteria. Maybe we learn to live with that. JRP 08:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of having a WikiProject (other than to garner support) is to use new guidelines. WikiProjects try to stay within the current guidelines and policies, but deviate from then when necessary. WP:Anime doesn't deviate much from WP:NAME or WP:COMMONNAME, they simply specify that the original script is to be used about other versions. This seems obvious for everything in Wikipedia, but seems to be neglected for Anime and Manga articles. The name guidelines in WP:Anime are pretty 'new fan' friendly. There have been accusations about the rules being "anime elitist" and "confusing to dub fans", but it's important to remember that these would be articles about a fictional work. Period. These articles are not about "a specific distribution company's specific English language dubbed version" of a fictional work. This tends to be a non-issue nowadays, with almost all English dubs using original names, but for older anime, like Speed Racer, Sailor Moon, and (especially) Dragon Ball - there are glaring differences between the original script, and the English dub. The naming conventions try to have the best of both worlds: Use romanizations of the original script, but use ones from a current, popular English distributor. Anime "elitists" may prefer straight romanizations, and dub-fans ostensibly prefer dub-names - here we try to strike a balance.
 * With Dragon Ball, it's hard to even pick a specific English dub to use. There are (off the top of my head) five from Funimation (Ocean, Texas, re-dub, uncut Texas dub, Blue water), Viz has at least two editions of the manga, there's that "Big Green" dub in the UK, and that atrocious Malaysian dub (watch this, the last voice). Add onto that, the fact that different countries air different versions, some countries (like mine) air multiple versions. - and add onto that the fact that of all the versions of Dragon Ball Z from Funi (who apparently has rights for home distribution for every English country) none of them are available for complete home purchase. You can mix and match release lines -but you can't go out and buy the complete series in one version (though the new 'season' sets are promised to solve that, and they hit shelves next month). The best bet we have is using Funimation's Japanese subtitle track. The entire series has been translated (though certain episodes are not yet available) by Steven J Simmonds (TV specials, movies, DBZ series, and GT series) and Clide Mendolen (sp? I'm sure that's wrong) (DB series, and one movie).

I don't think the WP:Anime guidelines say anything specific about this kind of case. The guidelines would say to use "Son Gohan" over simply "Gohan" (as the dub never uses the Son family name), but I'm unsure how it would deal with out current predicament. The guidelines would say to use "Son", but I'm unsure as to the "grandpa" part (the 'grandpa' part kind of a non-issue at this point though, as it would stay no matter what). --DesireCampbell 07:57, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * (in reply to JRP)
 * I don't think you understand what you're talking about. The two old name changes you listed were straight applications of WP:Anime guidelines.
 * Burdock is used in all subtitles by Daimao. His dub name is "Bardock", but again, we only use dub names if official romanizations aren't available. The tv special is not called "Bardock: Father of Goku" - that is, again, a dub name. The first DBZ tv special is called "A Lonesome, Final Battle: The Father of the Z-Warrior Son Gokū, who Challenged Freeza", the character's name doesn't appear in the title at all.
 * Mr. Satan was a horrendous struggle to get moved from "Hercule", and his name is far less controversial. WP:NOT clearly states that Wikipedia is not censored. Hercule is so clearly a censorship issue that the changing of "Hercule" to the proper name shouldn't have even required a Move Request. But that dragged out forever. WP:Anime clearly states that his official romanized name be used. Further, he appears as "Mr. Satan" in the newest Funi Dub version. But no, that discussion raged on forever.


 * You're right in thinking that we need to use a single source for the names, so we have consistency - but you seem to refuse to acknowledge the Japanese translated script available on every Funimation DVD (except for those first editions, but that was eight years ago). Why you refuse to acknowledge this as a viable source is beyond me.
 * You again seem confused about which version of the series is being used for each name. "Once, we chose a derived name, as it is in the VIZ manga. The next time we didn't like the manga name, so we went with the uncut dub. And now, we're back using the manga name." In actuality, we used the official romanizations for all those names. The DVD subtitle track uses "Burdock", "Mr. Satan", and "Son Gohan" (and jiisan is translated, in reference to this character, as "grandpa").
 * "As such, the FUNi dubs would be the path of least surprise. " The Funi dub, may be the path of least resistance - but which dub? Dub fans are probably most familiar with their local broadcast. As I mentioned already, there are a lot of them. And only a few were ever made available for home release. Most distributions are now semi-out of print.
 * "But, we make a value judgment and decide that those names aren't "correct" enough for Wikipedia." This statement is completely untrue. As I've stated before, there are many names used in Daimao's translations I don't agree with (hell, even he doesn't like some of them) but they are what the WP:Anime states should be used, as thus, we use them. --DesireCampbell 08:38, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Response to Desire

 * Burdock is used in all subtitles by Daimao - Later in your discussion, you are very quick to point out just how many English language dubs there are, a statement which I agree with. Yet you imply that there is a single authoriative subtitle track that we should trust? Daimao does excellent subtitles, but there are difficult decisions to be made in translating. To trust a single authorative subtitle track, when the majority of fans don't read subtitles (Wikipedia is not a forum for otaku) is a little odd.
 * You keep saying that WP:Anime says to use official romanized names. But, you pick and choose which official names you care to listen to. Mr. Satan, I will grant you, but to suggest that "Bardock" is more official than "Burdock" is silly. There are far more official publications that romanize it the other way. Again, an application of the guideline through your own judgement filter.
 * When you say I refuse to acknowledge the Japanese translated script available on every Funimation DVD, that's untrue. But these are also inconsistent. (And the implication that they are the only and true translations is absurd.) Take a character like "Guru". The subtitles switch between calling him "Guru" and "Great Elder". Which name should we use? Thankully, we haven't had that discussion yet. Yes, this is a good resource, but it's not a one-stop-shop.
 * As for which FUNi dubs, you seem to imply that there are more than one and a half. (Original Saiyan/Namek saga and the cut and uncut versions of the later dubs.)
 * I also know that Bardock isn't in the title of the Japanese movie, but again you are being an otaku. Most English-speakers wouldn't ever look up the title via its Japanese name (not to mention how many variant translations there are). The important thing is that in the official (per WP:Anime) FUNimation dub, it's spelled that way. Most English speaking non-Dragon Ball experts are familiar with him by that spelling.

In conclusion, it's clear that I'm still more upset by Bardock than about this. And these are such minor changes anyway. I want to pick names for articles that are accessible to non-experts while still making sense. Maybe Daimao subtitles are the way to go for this, I don't know that I would fight that. But most important is that we have names that are relevant and useful to all of the non-expert fans out there, that never read subtitles, that primarily get their fix from TV and a few DVDs. You, and Power, and I need to remember that we're in the minority with a heavy burden: to write and edit informative Dragon Ball articles for the majority. JRP 14:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You still seem to ignore key points about why we would choose Daimao's subs over the multiple dubs.
 * There is a single authoritative subtitle track that, for the most part, can be trusted. I have some problems with it (mainly the names) but that's of little consequence. It's an official translation of the original script - and because it's official, complete, and readily available, we use it.
 * The majority of fans probably don't read subtitles. The majority of fans probably think "Bardock" is a brilliant scientist. The majority of fans are probably only familiar with their local broadcast version. Which is different from country to country. Are you saying we should pick one of those? One dub which may be completely alien to a vast number of fans? You don't think that would cause problems? Are you saying we should choose one of the broadcasted, perhaps censored, version, that may not air anymore and/or is almost certainly not available for home purchase?
 * "but to suggest that "Bardock" is more official than "Burdock" is silly." -sigh- Again, you fail to understand the meaning of WP:Anime's guidelines. "Bardock" and "Burdock" are just as "official" as each other. Neither are the character's actual name. The character's name is "Ba-dakku". But it would be incredibly confusing for most readers. WP:Anime states we should use official romanizations. Romanizations. "Burdock" is the official romanization, while "Bardock" is simply a name change. If there were no readily available romanization, then we would have used "Bardock" in a second (I like Bardock better, but that's not his name)
 * I don't remember having seen any episodes involving Saichoro. One would have to be chosen as his most common name, and the other would be mentioned in the article and used as a redirect (In a similar manner to Kame sennin. Though, it's important to note that both "Guru" and "Great Elder" are fine translations (though the former more elaborate) of Saichoro.
 * "Grand Elder" was indeed switched to Guru early on after the scripts were translated - so says from the man himself.
 * "As for which FUNi dubs, you seem to imply that there are more than one and a half. (Original Saiyan/Namek saga and the cut and uncut versions of the later dubs.)" I don't imply that - I said so very clearly. There was an edited dub voiced by the Ocean Group (which continued to the end of Z, and is used internationally), an edited dub voiced by Funimation's in-house cast (this dub started with the third season broadcast and continued to the end of Z), there was another Funimation dub, done by it's in-house cast, but this time "un-cut" (started the same time the last dub started, but used primarily for home release, though later would be broadcast on Cartoon Network. This same cast and "un-cut" type script has now been used to re-dub the first two seasons). I don't know if Funi was in charge of production of the UK "Big Green" dub, but I suspect not. I can't confidently say how namy different dubs of the movies there are. I believe all the new movies (movie 4 onward) are "uncut", but I know there's at least two dubs of the previous movies (one with the Texas cast, and one with Pioneer's cast). Oh, and DB and GT air in the US with the Texas cast (probably edited), there's another version with the Texas cast un-edited (fully available on home release), and airs internationally with the Blue Water dub. So, all told, Funi is responsible for four voice casts, and five different dubs.
 * "The important thing is that in the official (per WP:Anime) FUNimation dub, it's spelled that way." No, again you misinterpret the WP:Anime guidelines. They state to use romanizations, not complete name changes. The dub is as readily available to the public as the original version (it's on the same disc) and you'll see the original title card when you watch the film in Japanese. Remember, the WP article about that tv special is "about that tv special", not about "Funimation's English dub of that tv special". You've got to remember that.

"You, and Power, and I need to remember that we're in the minority with a heavy burden: to write and edit informative Dragon Ball articles for the majority"

That's exactly why I refuse to allow the dubs to sneak into articles. That's exactly why I refuse to allow people to write articles as if the series was written in Texas.

We are not writing articles to help ourselves - we're writing articles to help everyone else. Maybe some guy sees a commercial on tv for the new DBZ game. He's like "hey, I remember that show", and he come to Wikipedia to find information about it. He should not be confronted with false information about the series -even if he recognizes that information, it's still wrong. It's not our job to shield him from the truth - it's our job to write a proper article.

We do have a heavy burden. Those of us that really know Dragon Ball are the minority of fans. Those well-versed fans that have not yet given up on Wikipedia DB articles is a vast minority. We might be the only ones who can help. It is a great burden, one that will not bring us fortune or glory.

But I will not let the burden crush me. I will not simply subsist and let the articles be taken over by "Bardock is a scientist" and "who's Cargo?" and "Mystic Gohan". I refuse to allow DB articles to become US centric. It is a burden I gladly accept. --DesireCampbell 17:06, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * (applauses/cheers) ;) Well said, Desire. I believe you've proven your point very well. Power level (Dragon Ball) 17:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Long-term solution
I have a general reply to the above discussion. We're talking about WP:COMMONNAME, which is a guideline, which comprises the "rationale and specifics" of one sentence of WP:NAME, which is a policy. That sentence is:


 * Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.

That link points to a section of WP:NAME containing links to naming convention guidelines for a wide variety of topics. If you scroll down below that list, there's a list of proposed and "under construction" subject-specific naming convention guidelines. I don't see WP:Anime listed in either section.

Maybe it would be a good idea to work out a consensus at WP:Anime, where you can take all of these examples into consideration, and then if you can get all (or most of) the articles in the project to be named consistently, according to whatever scheme, you might have a new guideline on your hands. -GTBacchus(talk) 09:07, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Reply
I have replied on my talk page. Pardon me if I don't reply immediately, I am a little busy at the moment. Yuser31415 01:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Here's why I see that the title should include at least: "Son Gohan" :


 * 1) The WP:MOS-JP and WP:Manga guidelines state that we should "use official romanizations if they aren't terrible".
 * 2) Let's look at the guidelines. In the "Article Name" section of WP:Anime, the recommendation is Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form. See: WP:NAME. That's all I can find in there about naming and that says nothing about official romanizations there.
 * 3) In WP:MOS-JP, there's a section on "Romanisation", but it only stipulates the romanization scheme to use when writing Japanese words. BUT, it also recommends that you follow Naming conventions (use English) which covers this case nicely: If a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form.. Again, the recommendation is the "common" name and not the "correct" one.


 * From WP:Anime:
 * "Characters should be called what the series officially states their romaji names as."
 * That is, what the distribution company (or if possible the original production company) officially states the original name to be. That would mean "Grandpa Son Gohan" instead of just "Grandpa Gohan". The point here is to use official romanizations (even if they are little known, or possibly incorrect).


 * "If that does not exist, use what they are named in the most recent or popular English translation, if it exists, isn't egregiously bad, and is the generally-used name (a google test is appropriate here)."
 * If there is no official romanization, then use the distribution company's name, if it isn't terrible (that is, it can be bad, but not completely off) and is used by English speaking fans.


 * "Otherwise, use a literal transliteration."
 * If there's no official romanization from the production company and there's no English distribution company (or if they decide not to name the character, maybe?) then we should use a standard Hepburn romanization.


 * The point here is to use English first but keeping romanizations of the original names above dub names. If there are no romaji names to be had, then we should use official dub names (unless they're absolutely terrible). And if we have no English to base the name on at all, treat it exactly like any other Japanese term on Wikipedia.


 * "Naming conventions (use English) which may cover this case nicely: if a native spelling uses different letters than the most common English spelling (eg, Wien vs. Vienna), only use the native spelling as an article title if it is more commonly used in English than the anglicized form."

So, why should we choose one name over the other? We should choose a correct, common , and official , name. But there are some problems with that:
 * The correct name for him is "Son Gohan", but, that name is already used for this character.
 * The most common name for him is "Grandpa Gohan". The problem with that is that it's not the most correct name because of his romaji name (孫 悟飯) which translates into "Son Gohan".
 * So, how should we settle this matter once and for all? Several people think that combining them would be best, others think that it should be kept as it is. Any other suggestions to solve the matter or should outside assistance be requested? Power level (Dragon Ball) 03:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

You just listed all the reasons why it should be in and almost everyone agrees it should be combined, I don't think is as close as to need outside assistance since it's pretty much one-sided, or we can take it to votation, I don't think the result would be different that way either-Dark Dragon Flame 04:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've re-listed Grandpa Gohan back at WP:RM. Hopefully, the move to Grandpa Son Gohan will be performed without anymore discrepencies this time. I've also stated at the move that the majority voted in favor of WP:Manga and Anime and the minority opposed it in favor of Naming conventions (use English). So, let's hope for the best you guys! Power level (Dragon Ball) 05:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Guess I was wrong. It was removed from the WP:RM by GTBacchus again... Power level (Dragon Ball) 05:22, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

See, the point that I have been trying to get across is that you can't base your arguments on the correct name. Truth is relative, that's why Wikipedia has WP:COMMONNAME. I think that the capital of Austria is Vienna, some people say Wien. Neither is correct, but Vienna is more common in English. In this case, you can use original research to say that your suggestion is right, but WP:NOR. If you can show me an official policy that points at the longer name, so be it. I'll change my mind. But all you've shown are some guidelines, which to me aren't as important as the policies for making a consistent and happy Wikipedia. JRP 05:32, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, WP:COMMONNAME is a guideline, too. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:34, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I meant WP:NAME (which COMMONNAME expounds on a section of: use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things) Sorry. JRP 05:46, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, you're right, and I might well have thought of that, too. Not to discount the weight of WP:NAME, but I think it's an open question whether specific categories of articles can have their own naming conventions, for the sake of consistency within those areas.  I've seen examples in Botany and in administrative divisions in Ireland.  It was rather controversial when it came up regarding episodes of Lost (TV series) — in that case, I believe the more general rule (disambiguate only when necessary) won out. -GTBacchus(talk) 06:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

The example of Vienna/Wien is not applicable here. We're not arguing about using macrons, or translations differences, we're talking about added the character's family name to the article title. There are other examples in WP:COMMONNAME that fit this article better. For example, George W. Bush instead of George Walker Bush. But that's not a perfect example either, we're adding the family name, not extrenuous middle names. I see nothing in that guideline that can be applied exactly to this inference, but I'd like to note that Weird Al is located at "Weird Al" Yankovic - which seems to fit this article as a perfect example. --DesireCampbell 05:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, what are you suggesting Desire? Power level (Dragon Ball) 05:49, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * What I understood Desire to be saying was, "Just as we add the Yankovic (family name) to Weird Al's name, even though people just call him Weird Al, so should we also add the Son (family name) to Grandpa Gohan's name, even though people just call him Grandpa Gohan." Whether or not that's what Desire meant, it's a reasonable analogy, I think.  If I misrepresented you, Desire, then please correct me so I can apologize. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You got it, Pontiac! --DesireCampbell 06:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm done
I'm done with this. We can go in circles all day, and we have on Burdock (which is still at the wrong name, IMHO) and Mr. Satan (which I have come to agree with). I mostly care that we use the common names and this example is too trivial for us to argue so much over. Grandpa Son Gohan doesn't feel right to me. Son Gohan (grandfather) might be the right choice. Including the family name isn't the worst thing in the world. Looking at the "Son Goku" article as one example, it's obvious that the Google test fails here, or at least isn't as convincing as I would like it. Because it would be common shorthand to refer to the character using his given name instead of his surname+given name, the Google numbers would be inflated. Same as with Son Goku, and I wouldn't propose changing that to Goku. (Maybe this is my own biases coming in. A strict reading of WP:NAME might suggest to even move that article to "Goku")
 * You're right. Following a guideline of "most common name" would mean using "Goku", and not "Son Goku". --DesireCampbell 06:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Consistency in article names is something I really believe in, but not to the exclusion of getting more important work done. I hope we do eventually move Kuririn to Krillin and Muten-Roshi to Master Roshi, but there's no harm in leaving them there while we edit our prose. I think with a bit more editing, Power level (Dragon Ball) could have Mr. Satan up to WP:GA standards-- possibly the first GA in WP:DBZ. So, goodnight friends. JRP 06:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The thing is, you're arguing that we should use blatantly false information simply because it's more commonly known than the correct information. WP:COMMONNAME says nothing about using a completely false name instead of a correct one. It says we should use the most common name, and seems to assume we use only correct ones. You seem to neglect the fact that these related articles are about "Dragon Ball", not "Funimation's second censored English dub of Dragon Ball". This is not an American encyclopedia, it is merely an encyclopedia written in English. --DesireCampbell 06:20, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Regarding "blatantly false information": This reminds me of that sobering clause in WP:V: "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth." cue creepy organ music -GTBacchus(talk) 09:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Should we change it now?-Dark Dragon Flame 06:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

No. I say leave the discussion open as long as is necessary for everyone to reach some kind on consensus. If we find that we cannot proceed, then a poll would be appropriate, but it's only been two days (just barely 50 hours), standard practice would be to leave the discussion open for 5 days (unless consensus is reached before then) but I doubt the discussion will take more than another day. At this point there's no more information to bring forth. We have proponents both for and against adding "Son". I invite anyone and everyone to bring forward any further arguments they may have, but I don't think there are any left. At least, that's my suggestion. --DesireCampbell 07:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * If noone can bring forth any new argument, then leave the discussion open for another 12-hours or so.
 * The make a WP:RM ("controversial" this time) and leave the poll open for five days (unless there's clearly no further interest after two)
 * Then, if there's a clear majority of 'ayes', move the page. If the poll shows less than a clear majority 'for', then we'll leave the page as-is until further info or argument comes forth.
 * -edit- Seems I spoke too soon, GTBacchus has added a wonderful section about guidelines - see above. --DesireCampbell 07:05, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay this is going nowhere we might need outside assistance. GTBacchus you have the whole Wikiproject Dragon Ball against your choice, we only really want to make it better-Dark Dragon Flame 08:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Against me? What do you imagine I'm supporting? -GTBacchus(talk) 09:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok let me rewrite it Aganist what you suggest, is that better-Dark Dragon Flame 09:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I still don't know what you say I'm saying, nor how that goes against what the WikiProject is saying, (nor do I know what that is).  I can't tell what "side" you think I'm "on".  I think we're both supporting the same name-change; I'm suggesting in addition that you get some subject specific naming conventions in good shape and turn them into guidelines.  I really don't know how that pits me against the Wikiproject. -GTBacchus(talk) 09:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't I'm just saying that we want to modify the title as fast as possible to have it in format to other DB pages while you just keep adding longer solutions to this, but never mind that now let's just resolve this-Dark Dragon Flame 10:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't see what the hurry could possibly be. Wikipedia's not going anywhere; it's best to chew slowly.  I think the page will move quite soon.  We don't have to wait for a new guideline to be adopted before applying it — quite the contrary, it should be adopted on the grounds that it's already being sucessfully applied.  Let's just give it a few more hours, alright? -GTBacchus(talk) 10:28, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah fine no problem, I'll be back in a while to see the progress, until then see ya all-Dark Dragon Flame


 * GT is right, there's no rush. The project is still in its infancy. It's not ready to through its weight around. In fact, under the current suggested guidelines, this whole page would probably be deleted.
 * There's no rush. This isn't the "Hercule" debate - we're simply trying to get 'Son' into an already pretty good title.
 * And, remember kids, we're not here to fight each other - it's not us against them. We're all adults trying to work together to make the page better. We're all friends here --DesireCampbell 17:11, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Page moved
I've gone ahead and moved the page, per the above discussion. If somebody was waiting for the page to move before they spoke up, I guess we'll from them soon.

I strongly recommend that you get your naming conventions at WP:Anime hammered out in a way that enjoys consensus support among project members, and propose it as a Naming Convention Guideline at Naming conventions. It doesn't even have to be finished in order to list it there, and that will get us one step closer to avoiding such drawn out conflicts over the names of anime characters in the future.

Thanks, everyone who participated in the discussion. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:29, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

So it was resolved, that's great!-Dark Dragon Flame 23:43, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's resolved until somebody speaks up and says it isn't. I hope we get some definite naming guidelines for Anime articles before that happens. -GTBacchus(talk) 23:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Hehe, I know what you mean it's the never ending dilema of Anime articles hopefuly it can get the guidelines, until then see you all around-Dark Dragon Flame 23:59, 16 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the user and talk pages be moved protected just in case Bacchus (Like Mr. Satan's)? Power level (Dragon Ball) 00:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah. I guess it is moved protected anyways so it won't matter. Power level (Dragon Ball) 01:23, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * It's not "move protected" as such, but I went ahead and made an edit to Grandpa Gohan, so it can't be moved back now without an administrator. It's a little trick I use sometimes. ;) -GTBacchus(talk) 06:38, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Cool. I just did the same for Bardock (in case of any unsuspected move). Power level (Dragon Ball) 15:34, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It was a smart move, both of you deserve an A+, do you think this page should be archived?--Dark Dragon Flame 00:18, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
 * It is a bit big now; archiving wouldn't hurt. -GTBacchus(talk) 00:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Website sources with a title of "Grandpa Son Gohan" in it
- See -->>Kanzenban # 08 (Uranai Baba & Goku / "Grandpa" Son Gohan) on that page (it links to a manga cover, I think)

- I couldn't get the original Japanese page to open for "Grandpa Son Gohan" (his main article strangely titled "Grandfather? Sato Sky") to link correctly here since the link was always being broken or redirecting to some Dragonball motorola thing (maybe someone can fix that and place the original page link somewhere below)

- somewhat a profile for Grandpa Gohan

- and as I've already shown before, on the bottom left of Saka Osamu, (the seiyū for Grandpa Gohan and Son Gohan) has the Japanese written name for the Japanese DBZ/DBGT ending credits for "Grandpa Gohan" as 孫悟飯じいさん for the Grandpa Gohan character. Firstly, 孫 悟飯 is translated in our English to "Son Gohan" and you can easily confirm this on Grandpa Gohan's main article and on this guy's main article. じいさん can be translated several ways in romaji: ojjisan, jiisan, no jiisan or no ojiisan, etc. - in the English language it translates to either "Grandpa" or "Grandfather". But since the japanese writing is written there together with 孫悟飯 like so:"孫悟飯じいさん", it directly translates into romaji as: Son Gohan no ojiisan, Son Gohan no jiisan, Son Gohan jiisan, etc. Since we're also going by Common English names and not just "use romanizations if possible", here's a sensible conclusion for the perfect name: the translation can be combined to either "Grandfather Son Gohan" or (the most notable)-->>"Grandpa Son Gohan'".


 * In this case, Grandpa Son Gohan seems like the best choice we have here. Reason being, he is only referred to by Goku as "Grandpa!" (of course, Goku never calls him "Grandpa Gohan"!) almost everyone else in the Dragon World either calls him that or "Son Gohan" or says to Goku like this: "Goku, your grandpa [grandfather] Gohan..." whatever... I've said my reasons and showed some website sources, is there anything else I'm missing here to eplain further? Power level (Dragon Ball) 16:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)