Talk:Grangetown, Cardiff

Welsh name
Trelluest is the Welsh form of the name given in Gwyddoniadur Cymru which is an authoritive work published by the University of Wales Press and produced by over a hundred highly qualified contributors. Details of Gwyddoniadur Cymru may be seen at http://www.gwyddoniadurcymru.com/cymraeg/hafan. The occasional use of 'Trefynach' for Grangetown can be traced back to its use (occasionally) by Menter Caerdydd, which in its turn can be traced back to a conversation which I had with its first full time officer who asked me what I would use for the area - as I used to teach in a local school I explained that we used Trefynach but that this was unsatisfactory as I could find no real basis for it in any historical literature and it was more or less an explanation of what Grangetown could be taken as meaning. Trefeiniol is likewise an attempt to translate the name into Welsh.

The following is taken from http://www.academi.org/gwyddoniadur/i/131952/ and proves that Trelluest is the correct version to use.

"Gadawodd y mewnfudwyr Gwyddelig eu marc, yn arbennig yn Grangetown (Trelluest) ac Adamsdown (Waunadda), ac oherwydd mewnfudwyr hefyd o Loegr – dros 20% o’r boblogaeth yn gyson dros chwe degawd – aeth y trigolion yn llai Cymreig a Chymraeg. Roedd nifer y Cymry Cymraeg yng Nghaerdydd, 22,515 yn 1891, wedi’i haneru erbyn 1911, er i bentrefi fel Gwaelod-y-garth a Phen-tyrch, a fyddai yn y pen draw oddi mewn i ffiniau’r ddinas, barhau yn gwbl Gymraeg. Eto i gyd, roedd gwladgarwch Cymreig yn ffactor o bwys, gydag Edward Thomas (Cochfarf) yn arweinydd deheuig ar Gymrodorion Caerdydd. Ymhellach, gellid canfod gwladgarwch Gymreig Caerdyddaidd, yn arbennig ym myd chwaraeon. Yr amrywiaeth o bobloedd a roddodd fod i acen y ddinas, sy’n ddyledus i’r Wenhwyseg, Iwerddon a de-orllewin Lloegr; mae’n ‘torri trwy synwyrusrwydd y clyw fel gwifren trwy gaws’. (D. Smith, 1984)."

The National Assembly for Wales only used Grangetown in Welsh, however one hopes that this may change with the publication of Y Gwyddoniadur.

I hope that this explains the history of the decision to use Trelluest and why I have reverted the Trefynach change. If need be I could put a brief explanation of this in the article itself. As can be seen it is not a 'Wikipediaism' but rather the fruit of modern academic research found in the most up to date material (Y Gwyddoniadur published in 2008!). I would ask that this is not changed to Trefynach without providing proper references to show that this is actually correct (bearing in mind that I am ultimately to blame for Menter Caerdydd using Trefynach!!) EoinBach (talk) 18:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Trefnynach and Trelluest
Could I suggest to 213.249.193.2 that he/she registers with Wikipedia and opens a proper dialogue on the Welsh name of Grangetown rather than just keeping adding 'Trefynach'. I have already explained that I am to blame for Trefynach being popularised by Menter Caerdydd (and I was a member of its Executive when it was first established). I now know from published sources that it should be Trelluest, there is no point in contiuning on with an incorrect form when we have more information. It might be possible to add, in the text, that a number of Welsh speakers use Trefynach as the Welsh for the area but that the correct Welsh name is 'Trelluest', but please don't just keep changing it with out giving solid reasons for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EoinBach (talk • contribs) 01:35, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

213.249.193.2 here. I am not in a position to make a historical argument for the 'correct' Welsh name for Grangetown. May I suggest Eoinbach provides an English translation for his explanation, which would be appropriate for the English Wikepedia. Whatever his explanation, even he does not dispute that Trefynach is commonly used as a Welsh name for Grangetown. Therefore to deny it, by repeatedly striking it out of the article, is not and accurate reflection of reality. I am in a similar dilemna because I dislike the use of the name "Strangetown" for the district, but I have not deleted the mention of "Strangetown" in the Wikepedia article because I know, regardless of its political correctness or otherwise, that some people do indeed use that term to describe the area. Wikipedia is a collaborative effort and there is often more than one person's version of the 'truth'.

I suggest Eoinbach uses the term 'Official Welsh: Trelluest' and provides a brief explanation in the body of the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.249.193.2 (talk) 00:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Trelluest isnt' the 'Official Welsh' name for Grangetown, it is the Welsh name. As I have already explained, the use of Trefynach was popularised by me. I do not accept that it is actually in that wide a use in Cardiff (as I live there and don't hear many Welsh speakers talking about Trefynach or indeed about Trelluest) however, I have no objection to adding a piece in the body of the text discussing the Welsh name of Grangetown and stating that the historically correct name is Trelluest but, due to ignorance of the historic name, Trefynach has also been used in some quarters. I also don't think that the question of Trefynach or Trelluest is anything to do with 'Political correctness' rather it has to do with which one is historically correct (and backed up by evidence) and which one is not. As I have explained, I was a main mover in the fact that Trefynach was popularised (and there were lots of different versions in use by Welsh speakers for the area at the time when I was asked by the Menter's paid official which version I would opt for - and he asked me as I used to work in a school teaching children from the area - I said that we had standardised on Trefynach, but that it didn't really have any historical currency or any real basis to it, but he decided to go with it until we found out the correct form - and that is what has now come through!EoinBach (talk) 02:26, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Basis for Welsh names
I've been reading the discussion above with interest - thank you to those who have contributed (a while ago now!). There are more than half a dozen names for Grangetown used in Welsh, with various degrees of popularity and justification.

I'll start with Trelluest and its use by the Gwyddoniadur. A remarkable reference book as it is, the Gwyddoniadur is not an academic work as regards including references to sources or authors' names for individual entries. There is without any doubt a huge amount of top-quality research in it, but in terms of referencing it is far less stringent than Wikipedia, and so there are problems about using it as a secondary source. For instance, EoinBach says that Trelluest is 'the historically correct name' based on the Gwyddoniadur. But the Gwyddoniadur does not give any evidence for that. He also says that Trelluest is 'backed up by evidence', but other than the Gwyddoniadur itself we have no evidence at present. Other academic sources disagree with the Gwyddoniadur. For instance, Owen John Thomas in his contribution to Iaith Carreg fy Aelwyd(ed. Geraint Jenkins), uses y Grange Mawr (and Sblot Uchaf for Adamsdown, rather than the Gwyddoniadur's Waunadda, a recent coinage in all likelihood).

As things stand I see no reason for privileging Trelluest over other Welsh names. (The council, Y Dinesydd, BBC and various other bodies normally use Grangetown as far as I can see, which would suggest that Grangetown is the generally accepted form in Welsh). So I would suggest noting at the top of the article something like: 'Grangetown is common in Welsh, but other Welsh names are in use' and writing a section discussing the matter. Troellwr (talk) 08:37, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * 213.249.193.2 here again (I forgot to sign in when I made my first comment all those years ago). Interesting input, but it still doesn't leave us much nearer to identifying the correct name. Whoever Eoinbach is, they claim to have popularised Trefynych ...and had done so successfully because it was taught in local evening classes as the Welsh name for Grangetown. I came across Trefynych after being taught Welsh by a Welsh speaker brought up in Cardiff. Obviously that's only anecdotal evidence too!! Sionk (talk) 12:14, 28 June 2013 (UTC)


 * There are numerous forms in use in Welsh for Grangetown, but by far the commonest is Grangetown itself. It is also the form used by standard reference works. We could include Trelluest in the opening section but if so we would also need to add the half a dozen or so other forms. To include just Trelluest would suggests that it has an official or generally accepted status, but it does not. In fact, in terms of meaning it is the least satisfactory, with lluest usually meaning a temporary dwelling, or at best a lodge of some kind, not a monastic grange as at Grangetown. As things stand, I don't see that the evidence in favour of Trelluest reaches the standards required by Wikipedia. The form used in Welsh by the Gwyddoniadur is Grangetown, with Trelluest only noted as an alternative in brackets. So contrary to what's suggested by EoinBach above, the Gwyddoniadur treats Grangetown as the Welsh name. Troellwr (talk) 21:25, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, you've sourced some of it, which is an improvement on the previous situation! I won't labour the point any further, you'll be glad to know. Sionk (talk) 21:46, 2 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you. I've now sourced the rest as well. Troellwr (talk) 23:12, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

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