Talk:Great Dane/Archive 2

"Great Danish Dog" vs. Englische Dogge (alleged Vandalism..)
(Quote)

"Let us look at some original sources:


 * Viggo Møller: Hunden og Hunderacerne (1887, chapter 11, Guard Dogs, The Great Dane, pages 218-233): In Danish


 * "Men nu vil Tyskerne se at faa Benævnelsen "stor dansk Hund" ud af Verden. De har i de sidste 8-10 Aar begyndt at drive Hundesport, og om end deres Kynologi endnu staar paa Begyndelsesstandpunktet, arbejdes der dog meget ihærdig, og de er ikke bange for at annektere ogsaa paa dette Omraade....Bestræbelserne i saa Henseende gjøres især af den tyske Forening "Hector", og ved Artikler og Afbildninger søger man at slaa fast, at den store danske Hund skal kaldes "Deutsche Dogge


 * With my English translation


 * ”But now the Germans are seeking to exterminate from this world the term ”Great Dane”. 8-10 years ago they became active in the dog world. Even though their level of knowledge remains basic, they show great initiative and are not afraid to seek new territory, also as far as dogs are concerned … Efforts in this regard is mostly taken by the German association “Hector”. By articles and depictions they seek to promote the view that the Great Dane should now the termed “Deutsche Dogge”.

Let us then move on and ask the Germans themselves how the whole falsification process took off:


 * Dr. A. Ströse: Unsere Hunde - Form und Leben des Hundes (Erster Band, Neudamm 1902):


 * German: "Im Jahre 1880 wurden durch eine in Berlin tagende Kommission alle diese früheren lokalen benennungen für ein und dieselbe rasse unter dem gemeinschaftlichen namen deutsche Dogge zusammengesasst".


 * My English translation: “In the year 1880 a commission in Berlin amalgamated all earlier names for this breed under the name Deutsche Dogge”.

The same statement in German can be read in "Brehms Tierleben" (1890-93, 3rd edition, Säugetiere - Zweiter Band, pages 125-126)"


 * No one disputes, that the breed was named Deutsche Dogge in this time.
 * This breed was hundreds of years known as "Englische Dogge" and was no "Great Danish Dog", as will be seen by the sources you presented.

Sources (copypasted from Fitzinger)
"Now we know how and why the falsification began. Well, what did the Germans have to say before the year 1880?


 * The year 1817

Dr. Friedrich Ludwig Walther (1759-1824): Der Hund, feine verfchiedenen Zuchten und Varietäten, Gefchichte feiner Verbreitung und Schickfale, Erziehung, Benutzung, Krankheiten und Feinde; (Gießen, 1817, p. 33): d) danicus, die Dänifche Dogge. Le grand Danois, Buffon. tab. XLV. Pennant. 254, Sukow. 241. v. Schreber. III. 22. Encycl. 374. Sehr groß, mit kurzen schmahlen Ohren, fchlankem Leib, hohen Beinen. Buffon fah Einen, der fitzend fünf Fuß höhe hatte. Die Schnautze ift lang, der Leib fällt nach hinten zu ab. Fett werden fie nie. Sie find nach Milleri Prodromus Zoologiae danicae felbft in Dänemark felten. Ich habe in meinem Leben ein einziges Mahl diefen Hund gefehen. Er war mäufegrau.


 * Translation of the second and third last setences: "They are after Milleri Prodromus Zoologiae danicae even in Denmark rare. I've seen this dog once single time in my whole life".
 * This dog seems to be mainly a Buffonian phantom.


 * Dr. Friedrich Ludwig Walther (1759-1824): Der Hund, seine verschiedenen Zuchten und Varietäten, Geschichte seiner Verbreitung und Schicksale, Erziehung, Benutzung, Krankheiten und Feinde; (Gießen, 1817, p. 33)
 * On the same page before that: "mastivus anglicus, die Englische Dogge, le Doggue de forte race..."

Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Der Hund und seine Racen. Naturgeschichte des zahmen Hundes, seiner Formen, Racen und Kreuzungen” (Tübingen, 1876) is the book that is issued on the back of his Ph.D.


 * 1833 bei Gelegenheit der 3. Säcularfeier der Reformation erhielt F. von der preußischen Universität Königsberg die medicinisch-chirurgische Doctorswürde und 1834 das Diplom eines Doctors der Philosophie von der königl. preuß. Universität zu Halle.
 * It is dubious, that this book from 1876 should be connected with his Ph.D (1834) or his other degree (1833).

From his actual Ph.D. (pages 479-480) in the section “9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus)" - i.e. the Great Dane, we find it mentioned as such in German.

"9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus). Daenischer Hund. Ridinger. Entw. einiger Thiere. Th. I. Nr. 18. t. 18. Vordere Figur links: Grand Danois. Buffon. Hist. nat. d. Quadrup. V. V. p. 240. t. 26. Großer Dänischer Hund. Haller. Naturg. d. Thiere. S. 482. Nr. 3. Can danese grande. Alessandri. Anim. quadrup. T. H. t. 92. 480 Fitzinger. Danish dog. Penn. Synops. Quadrup. p. 146. Nr. 4. y. Großer dänischer Hund, Martini. Buffon Naturg. d. vierf. Thiere. B. II. p. 161. t. 22. Dänischer Blendling. Schreber. Säugth. B. III. S. 326. Nr. 1. 22. Canis familiaris. Var. φ. Erxleb. Syst. regn. anim. P. I. p. 548 Nr. 1. φ. „ „ danicus s. lorarius. Zimmerm. Geogr. Gesch. d. Mensch. u. d. Thiere. B. I. S. 297. Nr. 15. 9. i. „ „ Var. δ. Danicus. Boddaert. Elench. anim. V. I. p. 96. Nr. 16. 3. δ. ... „ „ danicus. Bechst. Naturg. Deutschl. B. I. S. 572. Nr. 6. „ „ Molossus, danicus. Walth. Hund. S. 33. Nr. 8. d. Chien Danois. Canis fam. danicus. Desm. Mammal, p. 191. Nr. 292. C. „ „ Lesson. Mammal. p. 1 59. Nr. 425. 7. Canis fam. Danicus. Fisch. Synops. Mammal. p. 173. Nr. 2. 1. ß. „ „ „ Fitz. Fauna. Beitr. z. Landesk. Österr. B. I. S. 299. „ „ laniarius danicus. Reichenb. Regu. anim. P. I. p. 17. Fig. 166. 167. Großer dänischer Jagdhund. Götz. Hunde-Gallerie. S. 9. Nr. 22. Fig. 22. Canis fam. laniarius danicus. Reichenb. Naturg. Raubth. S. 158. Fig. 166, 167. Danish Dog. Canis glaucus. Smith. Nat. Hist. of Dogs. V. H. p. 152, 293. Grand Danois. Canis fam. danicus major. Laurill. D'Orbigny Dict. d'hist. nat. T. III. p. 543. Nr. 2. Großer dänischer Hund. Youatt, Weiß. Hund. S. 32. „ „ „ Fitz. Naturg. Säugeth. B. I. S. 149. Canis fam. danicus. Gieb. Säugeth. S. 844. Der große dänische Hund ist ein Blendling, der seinen körperlichen Merkmalen zufolge aus der Kreuzung des großen Windhundes (Canis leporanus) mit dem englischen Jagdhunde (Canis sagax, anglicus) entsprossen, mithin ein einfacher Bastard reiner Kreuzung ist. Seine Abstammung ist sonach beinahe dieselbe, wie jene des französischen Fleischerhundes."


 * No. It's published in this compilation: Sitzungsberichte der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche Classe. Band 56, Wien 1867, P. 479
 * Together with a big number of other "subspecies" of dog, as the Englische Dogge = Dogue de forte race = Grosse Dogge = the "English dog".
 * By the way: Fitzinger was a great zoologist, but he believed, that in nature circa 7 "Races" of dog exists - in the kind of a biological taxon. Further that other dog types were simple, twofold, threefold and more "bastards" of them. The dogs of this 7 "Mainraces" would give their characteristics fully to their descendents. In this way he described some 100 "Bastard-Races", before kennel clubs existed. He thought, the nature wouldn't change and was an opponent of Darwin. That's why, he couldn't understand, that dog types or breeds are be formed by selection - arranged by the human.


 * Translation from above: The great Danish dog is a mongrel, after its physical characteristics, sprouted by the crossbreed of the large greyhound (Canis leporanus) with the english hunting dog (Canis sagax, Anglicus), and is therefore a simple bastard of pure crossing. His ancestry is therefore almost the same as that of the French butcher dog.

As with any good Ph.D. the paper lists all the resources used to arrive at the conclusion that the Great Dane is …. a Great Dane.


 * Daenischer Hund	Johann Elias Ridinger (Ulm 1698 – Augsburg 1767): Entwurf(f) einiger Thiere (1738-1755).
 * Let's take a look at that.
 * This is the Dänische Hund of Ridinger in the size of a hunting poodle. Apparently not so important to the Autor, because it is depicted together with other dogs somewhere behind in the book.
 * This is the Englische Docke Clearly a huge molossoid dog. The first picture in this book.


 * Grand Danois	George Louis Leclerc, comte de Buffon (1707-1788): Histoire Naturelle, générale et particulière, Avec la description du cabinet du roi. Tome Cinquième. (1755), Le Chien avec ses variétés (s. 185-311)
 * Which dog Buffon ever meant, when he wrote phantastic things, like that this "large Dane" became in other areas the Greyhound, it was not the Dogge aka Great Dane.


 * Großer Dänischer Hund	Johann Samuel [Haller] Halle : Die Naturgeschichte der Thiere in sistematischer Ordnung. Die vierfüssigen Thiere, welche lebendige Jungen zur Welt bringen; nebst der Geschichte der Menschen. Mit Kupfern. (1757) / Die Vögelgeschichte mit Kupfern. Zweeter Band. (1760) (Berlin 1757-1760)
 * Die Naturgeschichte der Thiere in sistematischer Ordnung. Die vierfüssigen Thiere, welche lebendige Jungen zur Welt bringen; nebst der Geschichte der Menschen. Mit Kupfern. (1757), P. 482
 * What he wrote: ''Der große Dänische [Hund]. Er ist in allen Theilen ein sehr stark begliederter Bauerhund mit kürzerem Haar. Die meisten sind falbe, sonsten grau, schwarz und geflekt. Man nennt sie die Dänischen Kutschenhunde, weil sie gern hinter dem Wagen herlaufen.
 * Translation: ''The great Danish [Dog]. It is in all parts a very strong struktured Farmer's dog with shorter hair. The most of them are fawn, others are grey, black or spotted. They are called the Danish Carriage Dogs, because they like to run after carts."


 * Die Naturgeschichte der Thiere in sistematischer Ordnung. Die vierfüssigen Thiere, welche lebendige Jungen zur Welt bringen; nebst der Geschichte der Menschen. Mit Kupfern. (1757), P. 488 and 489
 * Excerpt: Die Englische Dogge. Ihre Gestalt stimmt mit dem Bullenbeißer völlig überein, sie übertrifft diesen aber an Grösse.... Die Franzosen nennen sie Dogues. Die größten nennt man Kammerhunde,...
 * Translation: The English Dogge. It's figure is complete consistent with the Bullenbeisser, but it exceeds it in size .... The French call it Dogue. The largest are called Chamber dogs ...


 * Can danese grande	Innocente Alessandri (ca. 1740-?) og Pietro Scattaglia: Animali quadrupedi al naturale disegnati, incisi, e miniati con i loro veri colori (Venezia: Carlo Palese, 1771-75)
 * Italian translation of Buffons work(?), not found.


 * Danish dog	Thomas Pennant (1726-1798): Synopsis of Quadrupeds (1771,Third Edition 1773, s. 240).
 * English translation of Buffons work.


 * Großer dänischer Hund	Friedrich Heinrich Wilhelm Martini (1729-1778): Naturgeschichte der vierfüssigen Thiere. En tysk oversættelse af Buffon.
 * German translation of Buffons work.


 * Dänischer Blendling	Johan Christian Daniel von Schreber (1739-1810): Die Säugthiere in Abbildungen nach der Natur mit Beschreibungen (1775)
 * Johan Christian Daniel von Schreber: Die Säugthiere in Abbildungen nach der Natur mit Beschreibungen (1775) P.326
 * Der dänische Blendling. Er ist schlanker vom Leibe, auch die Beine dünner und höher. Die Ohren kurz und schmal.
 * Translation:''The Danish mongrel. He is slimmer from the body, the legs (are) thinner and higher. The ears (are) short and narrow.
 * Thinner and higher compared with medium sized dogs as the pointers ("Hühnerhunde") of this time, which were described before this Danish dog. ...It is really doubtful, that "dänisch" ever referenced to Denmark, before Buffon produced this connection.


 * Johan Christian Daniel von Schreber: Die Säugthiere in Abbildungen nach der Natur mit Beschreibungen (1775) P. 324
 * In the same Book the "englische Dogge" again: Die größere Art der Bärenbeisser endas. tab. 2. scheinet auch hieher zu gehören. Der Unterschied bestehet fast blos in der Gröss, worinn dieser den Bullenbeißer weit übertrifft. Die Farbe ist mehr abwechselnd.
 * Translation: It seems, that the bigger type of the Bärenbeisser see Ridinger picture 2 belongs even to hither. The difference exists almost merely in the size, in which this one far surpasses the Bullenbeißer. The color is more alternately.
 * The bigger type of the Bärenbeisser was known as a really tall molossoid dog.


 * Canis familiaris. Var.	Professur für Physik und Tierheilkunde an der Göttinger Universität, Johann Christian Polycarp Erxleben (1744-1777): Dijudicationem Systematum Animalium (1767)
 * I suspect, you didn't read this book.


 * Canis familiaris danicus s. lorarius	Professor Eberhard August Wilhelm von Zimmermann (1743-1815): Geographische Geschichte des Menschen und der vierfüßigen Tiere (Leipzig 1778-83).
 * This reference was not comprehensible to me: Geographische Geschichte des Menschen, und der allgemein verbreiteten vierfüssigen Thiere : nebst einer hieher gehörigen zoologischen Weltcharte, Geographische Geschichte des Menschen, und der allgemein verbreiteten vierfüssigen Thiere : nebst einer hieher gehörigen zoologischen Weltcharte, Volume 1, P. 130, "Der Hund"


 * Canis familiaris Var. Danicus	Pieter Boddaert (1730-1795/96): Elenchus Animalium (1785).
 * Pieter Boddaert: Elenchus Animalium, 1785, P. 96 Supports nothing in no direction.


 * Canis familiaris danicus 	Dr. . "Dr. Johann Matthäus Bechstein war ein deutscher Naturforscher, Forstwissenschaftler und Ornithologe" (Naturkundemuseum, Erfurt)
 * Johann Matthäus Bechstein, Gemeinnützige Naturgeschichte Deutschlands, P. 550
 * Under the Section Säugethiere Deutschlands (Mammals of Germany) (P. 221) he wrote on P. 550:
 * ''Wir führen jetzt bey uns einheimische Hauptrassen, die man reine kann,[..]
 * ''We now introduce the in our country indigenous main-races of dog, that can be called pure,[..]


 * In the group of the Bullenbeisser he mentions the "englische Hund; (Dogge, Kammerhund)" referenced to the Dogue de forte race of Buffon (P. 556).


 * P. 572: Der große Dänische Hund (Dänischer Blendling) Er hat die Gestalt fast völlig, wie der Schäfer- oder Bauernhund nur sind, ja alle Theile größer.[..] Die Bastarde, welche man von ihm und dem Windhunde, oder dem gemeinen Jagdhunde erlangt, geben gute brauchbare Hunde zur Jagd, und richtet von ihnen die Biber- und Fischotterhunde wegen ihres scharfen Gebisses zum Anpacken ab.
 * The large Danish dog (Danish mongrel). It has the shape almost completely, as the shepherd or farm dog, but all parts are larger. [..] The bastards, which can be produced by it and the greyhounds, or the common hunting dogs, give good useful hunting dogs, from them will be trained the Beaver dogs and otter dogs because of their sharp teeth to tackling.


 * This "Danish" Dog is no molossoid dog, his mix-descendents give hunting dogs on beaver or otter and last but not least, it is considered as indigenous.


 * Canis familiaris Molossus, danicus	Dr. Friedrich Ludwig Walther (1759-1824): Der Hund, feine verfchiedenen Zuchten und Varietäten, Gefchichte feiner Verbreitung und Schickfale, Erziehung, Benutzung, Krankheiten und Feinde; (Gießen, 1817, s. 33).
 * As above; your first reference.


 * Chien Danois. Canis fam. danicus	Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest [Desm] (1784-1838): Mammalogie ou description des espèces des Mammifères. Paris: Veuve Agasse (1820)
 * Chien Danois (Danish Dog) Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest: Mammalogie ou description des espèces des Mammifères. P. 191


 * Dogue de forte race (Dogge aka "Great Dane"): Anselme Gaëtan Desmarest: Mammalogie ou description des espèces des Mammifères. P. 195
 * C'est le plus gros et le plus fort de tous les chiens domestiques. Il résulte du mélange des races du mâtin et du dogue proprement dit. Son pelage est tantôt fauve par parties, tantôt à fond blanc, et varié de taches noires ou brunes.
 * Translation:''It is the largest and strongest of all domestic dogs. It results from the mixing breeds of mastin and the real mastiff (ancient english Mastiff). A number of them is fawn, some are white, and ranged from black or brown spots.


 * Canis fam. Danicus	Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Systematisches Verzeichniß der im Erzherzogthume Österreich vorkommenden Weichthiere, als Prodrom einer Fauna derselben. - Beiträge zur Landeskunde Österreich's unter der Enns 3: 88-122. Wien (1832).
 * Translation of this title: Systematic catalog of the Molluscs (sic!) which occurring in the Archduchy of Austria, as a prodrome of the fauna of the same. - Contributions to the "Landeskunde" ["regional studies"] Austria's below the Enns 3: 88-122. Wien (1832); Link to that reference:'' "Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Systematisches Verzeichniß der im Erzherzogthume Österreich vorkommenden Weichthiere, als Prodrom einer Fauna derselben. - Beiträge zur Landeskunde Österreich's unter der Enns 3: 88-122. Wien (1832)"


 * Großer dänischer Jagdhund	Theodor Götz: Hunde-Gallerie oder naturgetreue Darstellung des Hundes in 43 reinen unvermischten Raçen, mit einer kurzen Einleitung und Beschreibung jeder Raçe (Weimar, 1838. Mit 43 Hundebildern auf 32 kolorierten Kupfertafeln).
 * I couldn't examine that. The book is rare. However, he depicted a Englische Dogge in this book, too. I may be wrong, but i reckon they will promote this book with it's most impressing dog.


 * Danish Dog	Lieutenant-Colonel Charles Hamilton Smith (1776-1859): The Natural History of Dogs. Canidæ or genus canis of authors (Edinburgh, Vol. II., 1840)


 * Volume 2, P.152
 * The home of "this variety of the great cur race" is according to Smith a range area: "western Russia, Denmark and northern Germany. It is allied to the "feral dog of St. Domingo", which why we have to assume, that "the same race also existed in Spain" ... He names this dog "canis glaucus" - Blue dog.
 * In summary is this no dog type, which stammers solely from Denmark and it is no mastiff.


 * But what did he wrote about the Dogge?
 * Volume 2, P. 225
 * The mastiffs of the Continent are generally white, with very large clouds of black or of reddish; two which had belonged to the Elector of Saxony, King of Poland, we measurde, found to be thirty inches at the shoulder. The ancient English breed was, however, brindled yellow and black.


 * Dogs, mentioned as mastiffs under the group of mastiffs with a height of 30 inches, white with large patches and ancestry to the ancient English Mastiff. It is evident, that he here describes the "Englische Dogge" (Tigerdogge, Tigermastiff, Harlequin/Mantle).


 * The Great Danish Dog (Großer dänischer Hund)	William Youatt (1776-1847): The Dog (London, 1845).
 * William Youatt: The Dog, 1845, P. 26
 * Heading: The great Danish dog, called also the Dalmatian Dog or Spotted Dog
 * He uses the term "breed", the "Dalmatian" shall be "much smaller" then the "Danish" and wrotes that the "Dalmatian" "is chiefly distinguished by his fondness for horses, and as being the frequent attendant on the carriages of the wealthy."


 * It's known that the breed of the Dalmatian was cultivated, developed and in all likelihood founded in England. May there have been bred in dogs from Dalmatia or not. "Dalmatian" is only another name for a Coach Dog, slim and higher then most others but fond of horses and carriages. The same attributes which were given in the elder sources to the Danish dogs. Dogs which were formerly taken from good grown, but usual farm dogs with short hair - and that everywhere in europe. This book is from 1845 and he uses the term "breed", not "race" as the most earlier authors. In this time purposeful breeding had become popular in England. If the name "Dalmatian" was used to distinguish the Spotted Dogs from other (Danish) carriage dogs or small sized from bigger sized Danish Carriage Dogs or for which reason ever, this entry shows that there was a lot of confusion which dog, the term "great Danish dog", shall describe. He put them both in one paragraph, because he couldn't really distinguish them. Another possibility is, that the Danish dogs had to been called "Dalmatian", because the Dogge was named "Great Dane" after Buffons dubious "grand danois" and there suddenly existed two breeds of "Danes/Danish".


 * This short entry from Youatt in 1845 shows that Danish dogs became a very substantially part of the modern Dalmatian Dog; and, if ever he should have meant those breed from Germany, that the "Englische Dogge" or "Boar Hound" got the name "Great Dane" in England.


 * Großer dänischer Hund	Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884): Wissenschaftlich-populäre Naturgeschichte der Säugethiere in ihren sämmtlichen Hauptformen: nebst einer Einleitung in die Naturgeschichte uberhaupt und in die Lehre von den Thieren insbesondere (1860-61,).
 * Wissenschaftlich-populäre Naturgeschichte der Säugethiere in ihren sämmtlichen Hauptformen: nebst einer Einleitung in die Naturgeschichte uberhaupt und in die Lehre von den Thieren insbesondere, P. 149


 * Klimatische Varietäten des grossen Windhundes sind: der irländische Windhund (C. lep. hibernicus), welcher aus Irland stammt, der italienische Windhund (C. lep. italicus) , welcher Italien zu seiner Heimath hat und der ägyptische Windhund (C. lep. aegi/pfiitsj, der aus Ägypten stammt. Einfache Bastarde sind: der spartanische Hund, der französische Fleischerhund, der grosse dänische Hund, der persische und russische Windhund, der irländische Curshund, der arabische Windhund, der irUindische Fleischerhund, der türkische und griechische Windhund, der leichte Curshund, und der schottische Windhund
 * As before, according to Fitzinger is the "large danish dog" among others like the turkish Greyhound or the french butchers dog a "simple bastard" from a "climatic variety" of the great greyhound, and it is not a Mastiff.


 * Canis fam. danicus	Christoph Gottfried Andreas Giebel (1820-1881): Die säugetiere in zoologischer, analomischer und palaeontologischer beziehung (1855)
 * Christian Gottfried Giebel: Die Säugetiere, S. 844
 * Giebel compared the anatomy of diverse animals. He found in dogs no significant differences between the various dog types.
 * Nonetheless, he enumerates some of them, without ton describe them. Under them the "c. f. anglicus Dogge" = English Dogge and the "c. f. danicus dänischer Blendling" = Danish Mongrel.

The list is so overwhelming that we need not even bother to look at the Danish sources that are older and more detailed. We just need to ask the Germans themselves.

We have in a depiction from 1768 by Johann Jakob Ridinger and Martin Elias Ridinger (1720-80) in their book ”Thierreich” (Thierbuch). The large hunting dog for wild boar in the German princedoms at the time is called “Dänischer Hund” (Danish hound).
 * Here are depictions of a Dogge and a Bärenbeisser from the same book "Thier-Reich": "Englische Docke" and "Bärenbeisser" This Englische Docke (Dogge) looks so modern as if it could be from today.


 * To be continued.. --Zuviele Interessen (talk) 08:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment of Markewilliams

 * Danish Having read the entire article and the talk page, I agree with Fleming that the reference to German breed should be removed, and the entire history of English, Danish and German claims should be recorded, especially the statement of the Dansk Kennel club. I also believe this article should be semi-protected since it has had this same controversy for 5 or more years.Markewilliams (talk) 11:30, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi Mark, sorry for the absence in the matter of the Great Dane page on English Wikipedia. I have been working flat out with a team from Danish Wikipedia to construct a verifiable account of the history of the Great Dane. It was launched last night here:

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granddanois#Beskrivelse

Obviously being written in Scandiwegian this may not make much sense to you, and I have not done a Google Translate to see the damage in English. However, you should be able to grasp that the Wiki-team has upheld some pretty strict requirements to sourcing the information correctly and verifiably, 117 sources and further notes.

What I propose to do is to create a draft in my English language Sandbox, basically a translation of the Danish one, where you and other interested parties can comment and add sources. Would you be prepared to take the time to read and correct my draft as it evolves, in order that we can develop a sound and correct description? Below, yuou can pretty much see what we are up against in terms of denial and attempt to discredit the past, so this should be an interesting exercise. Best regards Flemming Rickfors (talk) 16:28, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Contribution of F. R.
Excellent, we have German input from --Zuviele Interessen (talk) 08:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC).

This provides us ample opportunity to examine the prevailing rhetoric and arguments for the Deutsche Dogge history revision. The rhetoric is exactly the same format we can demonstrate has been the German line since the commission, ”Kynologischer Verein Hektor”, was established following the Berliner Congress June-July 1878:

- When faced with an undeniable fact – deny fact

- Ascribe the old Great Dane names to another breed – enabling ownership of the true Great Dane by German interest

The problems the Germans have always had is hidden in the language. The Great Dane in Danish and Old Norse is a “hound” (hund), and thus is a dog from the sighthound line of large hunting dogs. There are no “dogge, mastiff” type dogs in Scandinavia until precisely the year 1585.

I have above composed a small paragraph to sum the game-changing event at the Royal Danish Kennel:

“We can see from the Hunting Protocols of the Royal Danish court that the Great Dane was not well equipped to perform this new role in the Parforce Hunt. It was too light in built to hold down a deer or wolf without killing it. To solve this problem Frederick II of Denmark sends a ship to London in 1585 to bring back “Englandshvalpe” (English puppies) given to him by Queen Elizabeth I of England. The "English puppies" are the far heavier English mastiff (today known by it's name in Danish from the 19th Century Broholmer). The protocols of the Royal Danish Kennel maintain two separates lines in the kennel’s breeding programme; the Danish and the English line. The cross breeding becomes known in Danish as “Blendinge” (same word and meaning as the English word “Blend”). This new line of large hounds is the foundation of the present day Great Dane. For further reading on the Danish hunt, see C. Weismann: Vildtets og Jagtens Historie (1931).”

The source C. Weismann: The History of the Hunt and the Game (1931) is a book that is printed on the back of a Ph.D. The information itself is sourced from the actual hunting protocols and stud books kept at the Royal Kennel north of Copenhagen, now in the National Archives in Copenhagen.

This means that from 1585 onwards until the Hunt is finally shut down in 1777, there are three lines of dogs emerging from the Royal Danish Kennel, and both Danish sources and German and French sources (the dominant languages in science at the time) agree with this.

This is a very important point to bear in time. It will become clear why in a moment.

It is classic Holocaust denial-tactic to deny fact and our German friend certainly does his countrymen proud in attempting the exercise. Ultimately it fails but let us look at the rhetoric.

Since the attempt to rewrite history is exclusively a German exercise, I thought it far more interesting to use German language sources to suggest what the actual history is, as one would otherwise be open to German suggestions of intellectual inadequacies if using non-German sources, of which there are plenty.

Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884) was born in Vienna, Austria. He worked 1817-1861 at the Natural History Museum in Vienna. He was appointed professor of zoology and was as well president of the newly established zoological gardens in Munich (known as the English Garden) and in Budapest, Hungary.

In 1867 he makes 3 very long presentations at the ”Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften” (today known as ”ÖAW”) – the Royal Society equivalent. These presentations becomes the Ph.D. and from these his book “Der Hund und seine Racen. Naturgeschichte des zahmen Hundes, seiner Formen, Racen und Kreuzungen” (Tübingen, 1876) emerges.

His work forms the reference work for later works and what he attempts to do is to divide all known dog types, 180 in total, in to 7 core types or(”…nehme ich für unsere zahmen Hunde sieben verschiedene Grundtypen oder Stammältern an,…”)

His work is fact as it is known in the scientific world in 1867 and his work becomes so important for the very simple reason that he compiles all known knowledge about dogs at the time.

His methodology seem to have evolved from the publication ”Oeconomischen Encyclopädie” (1773-1858).

In his main Group 5 (V. Gruppe Bullenbeisser (Canis Molossus)) he has a sub-group called:

”5. Der kleine dänische Hund (Canis Molossus, fricator variegatus)” I.e. “The little Danish hound”

From the description of the hound, not “dog”, we are talking about a sighthound type of dog. The terminology of “little” in this context does not imply that the hound is a small dog but rather that it is smaller than the “Great Danish Hound” and has a far more pronounced sighthound type of face.

This is the original Great Dane prior to 1585 and it looked like this

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dänischer_Hund_und_verschiedene_Pudelhunde.png

when Johann Elias Ridinger depicted it sometime after 1741, the first time it arrives as a gift south of the Danish border.

In his “dogge” group, i.e. the mastiff type of dogs, he is also fully in line what all other and earlier sources identify. He has, amongst other, the following listings:

10. Die gemeine Dogge (Canis Molossus, mastivus) where he inserts the German Bullenbeißer

11. Die englische Dogge (Canis Molossus, Mastivus anglicus)

14. Die dänische Dogge (Canis Molossus, danicus)

So, there is in Denmark a ”dogge” type mastiff in the 19th Century. As I explained above this is correct as it was imported from England from 1585 onwards. However, in Danish we call this dog for “Den Engelske Dogge” (the English Dogge) in the 16-18th Century to identify its country of origin. This is the case in the Royal hunting protocols and scientific publications. This is the dog that today is known as the Broholmer, named so after the castle in Denmark at which is was bred from the early 19th Century onwards.

The English Dogge looks like this, 1 year old next to the Danish King in 1586:

http://www.broholmeren.dk/index.php?id=57

In his next main Group 6 (”VI. Gruppe. Windhunde (Canes leporarii)”) i.e. the sighthounds, he has a group for the large German hunting dogs, a group he calls ”5. Die Sau-Rüde (Canis leporarius, laniarius suillus)” i.e. the dogs used in the German princedoms for hunting the boar.

In a different group number 9 he then lists ”9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus)" or ”The Great Danish Hound” – the Great Dane to you and me.

It is not listed as a German dog and the “Great” part of this Danish hound is what we in Danish at the time call the “blending” (the blended dog) – the cross of the original Great Dane with the imported English dogge. And what the large German hunting dogs looked like and what the Great Dane looked like can be seen here

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/odinkarr/DanisherHundRuden_zpsa04ef014.jpg

a print made by the sons of the old Ridinger, dated Augsburg, 1768

The underlying text says

Canis Porcarii (Wild Boar Hounds)

Sau Rüden [The white wire-haired hound resting]

Bauer Hund [The reddish hound to the right]

Dänischer Hund [The large hound to the left]

The Great Dane shown here is the old Great Dane, before it is crossed with the English Dogge to give it its present shape and mass.

What the Great Dane looked like when crossed with the English Dogge can be seen here

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Great_Dane_Raro.jpg

The painting is from 1665 and is on permanent display at the National Museum of Art in Copenhagen. The Great Dane is called Raro.

Fitzinger’s work therefore absolutely mirrors facts on the ground in Denmark and the small German states at the time.

Let us recap the principal German argument:

“This breed was hundreds of years known as "Englische Dogge" and was no "Great Danish Dog", as will be seen by the sources you presented.”

The fact that there was and is a “Great Danish Dog”, as in a very large Danish Dog, great or not, and that our German friend seem to deny this fact, I think we shall leave for others to wonder about.

Factually wrong but far more worrying is the fact that Germans have a desire to make their Deutsche Reich Dog a mastiff. In fact the Great Dane is a sighthound, has always been a sighthound and will always remain a sighthound, enforced with the mass of an English Dogge to provide the weight in the Par Force Hunt to keep animals down, but alive.

I would certainly agree with the statement that the Great Dane page must be restricted in some form or other. The vandalism will simply continue unabated. I would also suggest that a seperate paragraph is inserted in to the final historic descripton that sets out the ongoing German attempt to rewrite history. There are great lessons be be learned here.

To keep all the comments in some sort of readable order, I would like to create a section called "RFC comments". If anyone has experience in doing so, please feel free to create the section. Flemming Rickfors (talk) 02:16, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

Contribution of Z. I. (reply)
(Italic paragraphs are quotations)

Excellent, we have German input from --Zuviele Interessen (talk) 08:33, 4 October 2013 (UTC).

''This provides us ample opportunity to examine the prevailing rhetoric and arguments for the Deutsche Dogge history revision. The rhetoric is exactly the same format we can demonstrate has been the German line since the commission, ”Kynologischer Verein Hektor”, was established following the Berliner Congress June-July 1878:''

- When faced with an undeniable fact – deny fact


 * Who uses rhetoric?

- Ascribe the old Great Dane names to another breed – enabling ownership of the true Great Dane by German interest


 * This is a question of truth, but no one of national interests. This assertations of some breeders from Denmark were not true in the late 19th Century and they are not true today.

''The problems the Germans have always had is hidden in the language. The Great Dane in Danish and Old Norse is a “hound” (hund), and thus is a dog from the sighthound line of large hunting dogs. There are no “dogge, mastiff” type dogs in Scandinavia until precisely the year 1585.''


 * And which word is the standard-term for a usual "dog" in Danish?


 * I am are not a linguist, but it seems to me that "hund" (icelandish: hundur) means "dog" in all scandinavian languages. The same meaning as in Old English and in other westgermanic languages, too.


 * Proto-Germanic: *xunda-z

Meaning: dog IE etymology: IE etymology Gothic: hund-s m. (a) `dog' Old Norse: hund-r m. `Hund' Norwegian: hund Swedish: hund Danish: hund Old English: hund, -es m. `hound, dog' English: hound Old Frisian: hund Old Saxon: hund Middle Dutch: hont Dutch: hond m. Old Franconian: hund Middle Low German: hund Old High German: hunt (8.Jh.) Middle High German: hunt (-d-) st. m. 'hund, jagdhund' German: Hund m.

''I have above composed a small paragraph to sum the game-changing event at the Royal Danish Kennel:

''“We can see from the Hunting Protocols of the Royal Danish court that the Great Dane was not well equipped to perform this new role in the Parforce Hunt. It was too light in built to hold down a deer or wolf without killing it. To solve this problem Frederick II of Denmark sends a ship to London in 1585 to bring back “Englandshvalpe” (English puppies) given to him by Queen Elizabeth I of England. The "English puppies" are the far heavier English mastiff (today known by it's name in Danish from the 19th Century Broholmer). The protocols of the Royal Danish Kennel maintain two separates lines in the kennel’s breeding programme; the Danish and the English line. The cross breeding becomes known in Danish as “Blendinge” (same word and meaning as the English word “Blend”). This new line of large hounds is the foundation of the present day Great Dane. For further reading on the Danish hunt, see C. Weismann: Vildtets og Jagtens Historie (1931).”''

The source C. Weismann: The History of the Hunt and the Game (1931) is a book that is printed on the back of a Ph.D. The information itself is sourced from the actual hunting protocols and stud books kept at the Royal Kennel north of Copenhagen, now in the National Archives in Copenhagen.


 * I suspect there was no "game-changing event". The royal court imported dogs of the ancient Mastiff type, and sure Irish Wolfhounds too, from England - as other Danish nobles did, as nobles everywhere in Europe did (also in Germany). And of course all this people had owned hunting dogs, hounds (and other types, too), before that, which they interbred with this imported dog type(s).
 * And so arose the Danish version of this "English Dog" = Englische Dogge = dogue the forte race.


 * This breed was in the 19th Century nearly extincted and was rebuilt as "Danske Hunden / Danish Dog" because it should become the "Great Dane" from which Buffon had written.


 * I'm are not fully sure, but i assume this was the first try to rebuild the Danish Dog: the Jägerpris Are i am right? (According to the Norwegian Wikipedia it is a 'Broholmer.')


 * This breed was first then renamed in Broholmer after some danish breeders in the end of the 19th Century claimed that the German version(s) of this "English Dog" = Englische Dogge = dogue the forte race should be of Danish origin.


 * And of course held the Royal Danish Court different lines of hounds. All smaller or bigger Courts did so. For the hunt on different animals were taken different dogs and on the hunt for one kind of game, such as boar were taken heavier and lighter dogs.
 * But there is no proof in this paragraph that there had existed a "Great Danish Dog" or Great Dane.
 * "Blending / Blendling" means Mongrel. Everywhere were dogs "blended" to get features from two dog types in one dog type.
 * If the National Archives in Copenhagen possesses evidence that the dog is of Danish origin, why are these not published?

This means that from 1585 onwards until the Hunt is finally shut down in 1777, there are three lines of dogs emerging from the Royal Danish Kennel, and both Danish sources and German and French sources (the dominant languages in science at the time) agree with this.


 * Who agrees with this? Which sources?

''This is a very important point to bear in time. It will become clear why in a moment.''

''It is classic Holocaust denial-tactic to deny fact and our German friend certainly does his countrymen proud in attempting the exercise. Ultimately it fails but let us look at the rhetoric.''

Since the attempt to rewrite history is exclusively a German exercise, I thought it far more interesting to use German language sources to suggest what the actual history is, as one would otherwise be open to German suggestions of intellectual inadequacies if using non-German sources, of which there are plenty.


 * If you could prove your claims, why is it necessary to write, that i would use a "Holocaust denial-tactic"?

''Dr. Leopold Joseph Franz Johann Fitzinger (1802-1884) was born in Vienna, Austria. He worked 1817-1861 at the Natural History Museum in Vienna. He was appointed professor of zoology and was as well president of the newly established zoological gardens in Munich (known as the English Garden) and in Budapest, Hungary.''

''In 1867 he makes 3 very long presentations at the ”Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften” (today known as ”ÖAW”) – the Royal Society equivalent. These presentations becomes the Ph.D. and from these his book “Der Hund und seine Racen. Naturgeschichte des zahmen Hundes, seiner Formen, Racen und Kreuzungen” (Tübingen, 1876) emerges.''

His work forms the reference work for later works and what he attempts to do is to divide all known dog types, 180 in total, in to 7 core types or(”…nehme ich für unsere zahmen Hunde sieben verschiedene Grundtypen oder Stammältern an,…”)


 * Ok, that may be not fully wrong.
 * If I understand you correctly, you mean, he became a Ph. D. - Doctor of Philosophy - for this presentation from 1867. That cannot be correct, because he gets this degree in 1834. I presented this source already above: Biographic Lexikon of the Empire of Austria, Volume 4, P. 258, 259

His work is fact as it is known in the scientific world in 1867 and his work becomes so important for the very simple reason that he compiles all known knowledge about dogs at the time.


 * Fitzinger is known for his huge work in botany and zoloogy. Nonetheless was his theory wrong, Darwin was right.

''His methodology seem to have evolved from the publication ”Oeconomischen Encyclopädie” (1773-1858).

''In his main Group 5 (V. Gruppe Bullenbeisser (Canis Molossus)) he has a sub-group called:

''”5. Der kleine dänische Hund (Canis Molossus, fricator variegatus)” I.e. “The little Danish hound”

''From the description of the hound, not “dog”, we are talking about a sighthound type of dog. The terminology of “little” in this context does not imply that the hound is a small dog but rather that it is smaller than the “Great Danish Hound” and has a far more pronounced sighthound type of face.

''This is the original Great Dane prior to 1585 and it looked like this

''https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dänischer_Hund_und_verschiedene_Pudelhunde.png


 * If this were true, why referenced he this picture under "Der große dänische Hund /Great Danish Dog" in the source you presented above?  Sitzungsberichte der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche Classe. Band 56, Wien 1867, P. 479"


 * And to which picture referenced he in this title Sitzungsberichte der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche Classe. Band 56, Wien 1867, P. 463 when wrote about the "Der kleine dänische Hund (Canis Molossus, fricator variegatus)"? To the petit danoise.


 * This "Der kleine dänische Hund (Canis Molossus, fricator variegatus) = “The little Danish hound” existed, but it was a lap dog and had few in common with the Danish Dogs / Coach Dogs.
 * It was be grouped under "Canis Molossus", because it had a round head (but with a pointed muzzle) and other similarities to the pug. Typical for this dog is a vaulted forehead. The pug belongs somehow in this group - that isn't wrong in the today's view.

''when Johann Elias Ridinger depicted it sometime after 1741, the first time it arrives as a gift south of the Danish border.


 * I don't know pictures by Ridinger with this dog. It was a dog for ladies as the Pug or the Pomeranian (small Spitz).

''In his “dogge” group, i.e. the mastiff type of dogs, he is also fully in line what all other and earlier sources identify. He has, amongst other, the following listings:


 * Sorry, but you wrote above, that your Great Dane should be no mastiff but a hound.

''10. Die gemeine Dogge (Canis Molossus, mastivus) where he inserts the German Bullenbeißer

''11. Die englische Dogge (Canis Molossus, Mastivus anglicus)

''14. Die dänische Dogge (Canis Molossus, danicus)

''So, there is in Denmark a ”dogge” type mastiff in the 19th Century. As I explained above this is correct as it was imported from England from 1585 onwards. However, in Danish we call this dog for “Den Engelske Dogge” (the English Dogge) in the 16-18th Century to identify its country of origin. This is the case in the Royal hunting protocols and scientific publications. This is the dog that today is known as the Broholmer, named so after the castle in Denmark at which is was bred from the early 19th Century onwards.

''The English Dogge looks like this, 1 year old next to the Danish King in 1586:

''http://www.broholmeren.dk/index.php?id=57


 * I acknowledge that you stay consistent with your idea of the "Great Dane" and impersonates the Dänische Dogge not as this "Great Danish Dog".
 * This Dänische Dogge was a variety, often in northern Germany. The lighter and smaller Dogges were called "Dänische Dogge", the heavier were called "Ulmer Dogge". It existed much more landraces of this in Germany. Every bigger noble had is own "breed". Fitzinger took up this designation and declared it to a "Bastard-Race / Nebenrasse". He meant that they were a crossbreed of the Bullenbeisser and the Danish Dogs. Such crossbreeds may had happened, but this dogs were no "race" after Fitzinger's theory and they are not the "Great Danish Dog". This Dänische Dogge and the Broholmer are not identical.


 * And i agree to the residual. Denmark will have had an “Den Engelske Dogge” (the English Dogge), too, and it was a dog like the Broholmer of today.

''In his next main Group 6 (”VI. Gruppe. Windhunde (Canes leporarii)”) i.e. the sighthounds, he has a group for the large German hunting dogs, a group he calls ”5. Die Sau-Rüde (Canis leporarius, laniarius suillus)” i.e. the dogs used in the German princedoms for hunting the boar.

''In a different group number 9 he then lists ”9. Der grosse dänische Hund (Canis leporarius, danicus)" or ”The Great Danish Hound” – the Great Dane to you and me.


 * At first which source do you mean?
 * In his book "Der Hund und seine Racen" as in this Sitzungsberichte der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften. Mathematisch-naturwissenschaftliche Classe. Band 56, Wien 1867, P. 473 he grouped both dogs in the group "Sechste Gruppe. Windhunde (Canes leporarii)" = Sighthounds. The "taxons": No 5. "Sau-Rüde" and No 9. "Der grosse dänische Hund" are no groups.

''It is not listed as a German dog and the “Great” part of this Danish hound is what we in Danish at the time call the “blending” (the blended dog) – the cross of the original Great Dane with the imported English dogge.


 * There is no such allocation to nations in this list.

''And what the large German hunting dogs looked like and what the Great Dane looked like can be seen here

''http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p54/odinkarr/DanisherHundRuden_zpsa04ef014.jpg

''a print made by the sons of the old Ridinger, dated Augsburg, 1768

''The underlying text says

''Canis Porcarii (Wild Boar Hounds)

''Sau Rüden [The white wire-haired hound resting]

''Bauer Hund [The reddish hound to the right]

''Dänischer Hund [The large hound to the left]


 * You omitted the picture in the book before this. Were the molossoid chasing dogs are depicted (Englische Dogge). Saurüden and Saupacker (Dogges, "Great Danes") were a good team.

''The Great Dane shown here is the old Great Dane, before it is crossed with the English Dogge to give it its present shape and mass.


 * I do not agree completely. This dog will be a "Blendling". Anyway every dog with hunting instinct could be used for a boar hunt (as the most dog owners know), but this depicted ("Danish") dog was not strong enough to hold down a boar. It is not the Englische Dogge (the today's Great Dane to English speakers).

''What the Great Dane looked like when crossed with the English Dogge can be seen here

''http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Wikipedia_Great_Dane_Raro.jpg

''The painting is from 1665 and is on permanent display at the National Museum of Art in Copenhagen. The Great Dane is called Raro.


 * The painting of Raro is from 1665 and it is dubious, that he was named a "Great Dane" in this time. But the other picture with a "old Great Dane" is from 1768. That doesn't really works:


 * Because Raro is a "Englische Dogge" - a Continental Mastiff with the origin to the ancient English Mastiff and the Irish Wolfhound - and yes: mixed with local hunting dogs as it happened everywhere, were the Mastiff was imported. The "Danish Dog" of the Ridinger-Sons is not a Mastiff. It's ancestry will go to back a good grown "Bauernhund / Farmer's dog", whose descendents had became Coach Dogs / Danish dogs - sure not in Denmark -, and a good hunting dog (compare the sources you presented / I cited above).


 * And at least: the two pictures are 100 years apart - in the wrong direction for your thesis.

''Fitzinger’s work therefore absolutely mirrors facts on the ground in Denmark and the small German states at the time.


 * No. Fitzinger's theory of "Bastard-Races" has been proved as wrong. His constructed races have to be handled with the due care. Nonetheless is his work a good source for investigation which landraces of dog types (may have) existed.

''Let us recap the principal German argument:

''“This breed was hundreds of years known as "Englische Dogge" and was no "Great Danish Dog", as will be seen by the sources you presented.”

''The fact that there was and is a “Great Danish Dog”, as in a very large Danish Dog, great or not, and that our German friend seem to deny this fact, I think we shall leave for others to wonder about.


 * No, my Danish friend, i don't deny that there existed a "Danish Dog" (of medium size and higher as medium size, but not in the kind of a mastiff) at least in the 18th Century.
 * I deny:
 * 1st, that the modern Great Dane (Deutsche Dogge, former "Englische Dogge") should be identical with this Danish Dog,
 * 2nd, that this Danish Dog should originates solely from Denmark,
 * 3rd, that there should have existed a mystic "purebreed" Danish Dog, which is depicted on thin engravings of runestones and such wonder things - who shall have became the modern Great Dane (Deutsche Dogge).


 * The shape of this dog was stretched out (German: dehnen)* and thin compared to other medium sized dogs, what is possible source for this designation.
 * *(goth. þanjan, ahd. denjan (Graff 5, 144), mhd. denen (Ben. 1, 311), altsächs. thenjan, ags. þenjan, nord. þenja, schwed. tänja. es stammt mit dohne, dohnen, dünne von einem verlorenen starken verbum din dan dânen gedonen - Brothers Grimm).


 * Some of them were spotted, so that old French word "danoisé" - which meant "spotted" or "patched" - would make sense as root of this designation ( Le Dogue Allemand, Collection dirigée par Dr Joël Dehasse, vétérinaire, Édition Le Jour, 1996, ISBN 2-8904-4598-4).


 * And yes, it quite possibly that this dog type (of the 18th Century Danish Dog / Coach Dog / later: Dalmatian Dog) could have been named after Denmark. In the way that special dog types were named after far countries.

''Factually wrong but far more worrying is the fact that Germans have a desire to make their Deutsche Reich Dog a mastiff. In fact the Great Dane is a sighthound, has always been a sighthound and will always remain a sighthound, enforced with the mass of an English Dogge to provide the weight in the Par Force Hunt to keep animals down, but alive.


 * From back to front: You admits that there is mastiff in the breed, because it was necessary. But it has to be sighthound. And others want to make a mastiff of this.
 * The other opinion is that this breed was in the beginning a crossbreed of mastiff (ancient English Mastiff) and sighthound (Irish Wolfhound).
 * Were shall we end up? This argumentation is inconclusively.

''I would certainly agree with the statement that the Great Dane page must be restricted in some form or other. The vandalism will simply continue unabated. I would also suggest that a seperate paragraph is inserted in to the final historic descripton that sets out the ongoing German attempt to rewrite history. There are great lessons be be learned here.


 * I would like to read your sources.--Zuviele Interessen (talk) 00:49, 7 October 2013

What are they for?
There's no info in the article about what this breed was developed for (what was their work/purpose?). 76.200.154.183 (talk) 18:31, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Great Danes were developed for hunting big game. I don't understand why there's no mention of the breed's purpose. Fainomenon (talk) 03:04, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

What does this mean?
I wanted to help by clarifying the EN, but this bit is completely incomprehensible. "This grading of in three tiers "separated" and "esteemed" dogs, gives reason to think, that the pure breeding was done in this way and that it was taken more care to the more purebred animals. But the ordinary "Englischen Docken" were so valuable, too, that they weren't to reckless utilized."
 * Sorry, my English seems to be much more worse than i thought. I can read it most fluently, but writing is another thing.. The three tiers refer to the Chamber dogs, Favourite dogs and the "ordinary" English Dogges. "Separated" and "esteemed" refers to the quoted text before (unterschieden und aestimieret. -> there translated with distinguished and held in esteem.). The meaning of both sentences is that it is probable, that the best breed material (favourite & chamber dogs) wasn't (always) used for dangerous hunts; instead were used the English dogs in the kennels (and so on).--Zuviele Interessen (talk) 20:49, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * They weren't so reckless utilized.Niado (talk) 19:05, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * They weren't so recklessly utilized. Which they couldn't be if there was none. Greedo  8  19:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

2014 Cleanup
I have removed and reworded a significant amount of content from the history section to make it more readible in English. I am open to the re-addition of most removed content, but something needed to be done immediately to bring this page back up to standards. If anyone has any comments about the removal, please post it here. Thanks! Greedo 8  18:30, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed the entire section about the Danish claims of origin because it seems to be more suitable to the Broholmer page. The parts referring to Great Danes in particular were mostly illegible. I have the version before I started editing saved to my sandbox for easier review.  Greedo  8  16:43, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Colors and family dog
It would be great to have information about how Great Danes started to become apart of people's families and brought inside to be house dogs opposed to just hunting dogs. Also, having more information about how the different colors came about would be helpful. Fuerst.36 Fuerst.36 (talk) 02:09, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
 * These dogs were in earlier times often used a symbol of representation and some of them were hold directly at courts of nobleman - as "family dogs". Hunting was an importent hobby of the nobles in the 16th. and 17th. century - and good dogs were a part of this. But, pure hunting dogs and representative "show-dogs" were no business of the "small folk". However, breeding towards "family dog" became importent around 1900.
 * In this dogs existed (nearly) all other possible dog coat colors, before breed standards came up. So, in earlier times existed more different colors then today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.115.132.179 (talk) 21:49, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

On the trivia section
Quoth WP:TRIV: ''This guideline does not suggest removing trivia sections, or moving them to the talk page. If information is otherwise suitable, it is better that it be poorly presented than not presented at all.''

Obviously I removed the entire section because I hold that a list of random dogs in media that just so happen to be GDs is not "suitable information" but a laundry list, even if it's nicely edited.

MOS:POPCULT specifically says  these sections are frequently just lists of appearances and mentions, many of them unencyclopedically trivial. I challenge anyone to point out what parts in that section feature non-incidental, mention-worthy, specific, and influential appearances of a GD in media. And then please cull the cruft out. --Pitke (talk) 21:00, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I plan to look into this in detail over the next few days. Thanks. Greedo  8  03:19, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Information will stay, as the referenced policies do NOT suggest removal of trivia information but instead propose a rewrite. Greedo  8  14:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 16:39, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Referenced line no longer appears in article. Greedo  8  14:33, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot  (Report bug) 23:20, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Suggested revisions on the page
Here are a few suggestions I have to improve the syntax/grammar/readability of the page as well as a correction in citation. Since the page is semi-protected and I do not have access to edit it, I am sharing it here.

1. "The Molossian hound, Suliot dog, and specific imports from Greece were used in the 18th century to increase the stature of the boarhounds in Austria and Germany and the wolfhounds in Ireland." Suggested change: In Austria and Germany the Molossian hound, Suliot dog, and specific imports from Greece were used in the 18th century to increase the stature of the boarhounds whereas, in Ireland, it was done for the wolfhounds.

2. "The name simply meant "English dog"." Suggested change: The name simply meant "English dog."

3. "After time, the English word "dog" came to be the term for a molossoid dog in Germany[24] and in France. Since the beginning of the 17th century, these dogs were bred in the courts of German nobility, independently of England." Suggested change: Since then, the English word "dog" has come to be associated with a molossoid dog in Germany and France. These dogs began to be bred in the courts of German nobility, independent of the English methods, since the start of the 17th century.

4. "The dogs were used for hunting bear, boar, and deer at princely courts, with the favorites staying at night in the bedchambers of their lords." Suggested change: Some of the favourites amongst these dogs used for hunting bear, boar and deer in princely courts would have the privilege of being allowed to spend the night in the bedchambers of their lords.

5. Jardine, William (1 January 1840). The Naturalist's Library. Lizards – via Google Books. Suggested change: Jardine, William. ' 'The Naturalist's Library' '. Lizards, 1840. Swastiacharya (talk) 17:23, 27 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Yellow check.svg Partly done: #1-3 were done because they are minor enough edits that were not intended to be blocked by semi-protection. #4 was not done because IMO the proposed wording is more awkward than the current wording. #5 was not done because the existing citation style uses an established citation template. I have no objection to an autoconfirmed editor in good standing reverting or rolling back my edits if you object to them. &mdash; KuyaBriBri Talk 02:20, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

Addition to the subsection "Animation" under "Cultural Significance"
Here is the text that can be added under the 'Animation' sub section:

Takamoto along with other creators of the show, Joe Ruby and Ken Spears, modelled the character of Scooby Doo based on the famous Archie Comics. Initially, it was decided that the dog would be a large sheepdog, the same breed as Jughead Jones' dog—Hot Dog. However, the then head of children's programming at CBS television network, Fred Silverman found them too identical and went against the idea that would appear as though it was directly copied from the comics. This led to the decision which changed the breed of the dog to another large dog — the Great Dane.

Before settling on Scooby's name, the character of the dog was named Too Much. He was not meant to star as a lead in the show but only supposed to be a side-kick. During the final stages of deciding what the show was going to ultimately be, Fred Silverman happened to be listening to the song 'Strangers in the Night' by Frank Sinatra. In the refrain of this song, the artist sings "doo-bee-doo-bee-doo," inspiring Silverman to rename the dog Scoobert 'Scooby' Doo and make him a focal character in the TV series. In the older version, Too Much was a part of a ghost-busting pop band and would play the bongo.

Voiced by Don Messick, the Great Dane's speak consists of 'r' sounds before words and other 'rrr' noises to mimic the "wroofs" made by dogs. Unlike regular the Great Danes' normal temperament, Scooby was a dog who would get easily scared and jump at the slightest eeriness. But like other dogs, he could be lured into chasing the villains with a doggie treat, biscuit, or 'Scooby Snack.' One of the most beloved dogs in pop culture, he would never leave his companion, Shaggy's side making him appear loyal and heroic.

In 2015, Warner Bros. studio announced that an animated movie "Scooby" would be realised on 21 September 2018. But in May 2017, they delayed the release of the film to 15 May, 20. Dax Shepherd, who also wrote and directed the MTV practical joke reality series Punk'd, is said to be in negotiations to direct the movie. Charles Roven and Richard Suckle are going to produce the movie alongside Allison Abbate. Roven and Suckle produced the studio's live-action films Scooby-Doo and Scooby-Doo 2: Monsters Unleashed. Abbate is known for her work on Fantastic Mr. Fox, Corpse Bride, and Frankenweenie. Dan Povenmire who has worked on Family Guy is on board as executive producer while Matt Liberman is working on the screenplay.

The 2002 Scooby-Doo film was produced by Roven and Suckle and directed by Raja Gosnell. It starred mixed live-action actors such as Freddie Prinze Jr., Sarah Michelle Gellar, Matthew Lillard, Linda Cardellini, and Rowan Atkinson. The titular Great Dane was not a real dog star, but was actually computer-generated, in both the 2002 version as well as in Scooby-Doo: Monsters Unleashed. At the box office, the 2002 film generated $275 million worldwide and the second grossed $180 million earning almost a total of $500 million. Swastiacharya (talk) 09:40, 3 November 2017 (UTC)


 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: This is both redundant and far, far too long for the proposed section. This type of information belongs in the Scooby-Doo and in fact mostly seems to already be present with better sources.  All that would be necessary in this article is a one- or two-sentence, which already is present. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:54, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Proposed Replacement for "History" Section
I propose the following replacement of the “History” section, to remove unsourced and irrelevant material. Please revise this revision to provide citations or to restore things you think are in fact relevant. Much of it talks about dogs which happen to be large, and dogs which happen to be owned by danes, without any clear connection to the breed under discussion, and an incoherent timeline.


 * Signed and dated for archive purposes only. William Harris •   (talk) •  10:18, 20 July 2018 (UTC)