Talk:Great Divergence/Archive 1

Apparently Original Longass 普通话 Thread
This article I found on the net, may be you can use some of the ideas. 春秋网http://bbs.cqzg.cn

春秋中文社区» 历史回声 » 大话明清 » [原创] 满清断绝华夏和西方的文化交流是中国在近代全面落后的根本原因

The severing of the cultural exchange between Chong Hua and the western world, is the fundamental reasons of the backward of CHINA in modern times.

阿眉立卡静

满清入关以后，满清皇帝虽然礼遇传教士，鼓励对西欧输出儒学，但是却禁止本国人民了解西方文明. After Manchu invaded the southern part of the Great Wall, even though the Manchu Emperor treated the western missionary with respect, encouraged the export of Confucianism into western Europe, but in turn prohibited  her own folks to understand western culture.

这不仅仅是因为满清皇帝意识到了西方文明对自己皇权的威胁，更重要的是满清的皇权因为有旗人军事和官僚集团支撑，能够通过无限扩大到民间的文字狱，将社会 舆论的引导权从文人手中夺到自己的手里，由此皇权就有能力阻止中国向西方学习和平等地交流，使华夏文明只输出不输入. Manchu Emperors realized that western culture is a threat towards it's own imperial authority, but most importantly,the Manchulian imperial authority had the protection and support from Manchulian military and bureaucrat, so that the Emperors were able to impose Literary Inquisition into every corner of the society, resulting in the inability of the society's intellectuals to form or conduct public opinions, that means only the emperors can "create" public opinions, thus the imperial authority was able to stop CHINA 's learning from the WEST, and exchange with the west on equal terms, the end result being Chong Hua culture could only export but no import.

西方文明本来是和华夏文明互补和平等的，西方文明需要华夏文明的平等和仁爱来反抗他们的等级压迫；华夏文明需要西方文明的公民意识和宗教来对反抗我们的王 神和一的皇权. Originally, western culture and Chong Hua culture were on even par and enriching each other. Equality, humanity and charity, all these qualities from Chong Hua culture, were absorbed into the western culture to counteract their own class suppression; whereas westerner's awareness of citizen's obligations and its religion, were needed by Chong Hua culture to counteract our own God-King-as-one imperial authority.

西方文明通过和华夏文明交流实现了自己的现代化，可是华夏文明中的人文精神却被满清扼杀了，并且还全面阻止了华夏文明向西方学习. 这使华夏文明丧失了通过 与西方交流，实现自身升级现代化的机会，满清不仅导致了中国在近代的全面落后，而且还阻碍了西方文明和华夏文明的全面融合.

Through the exchange with Chong Hua culture, the western culture was finally modernized, but Manchu imperial authority,not satisfied with strangling our spirit of humanity, went on to impose a complete stop on the Chong Hua culture's learning from the west. The opportunity to be upgraded and modernized, through the exchange with western culture, was lost. The Manchu Dynasty, not only was the cause of the full-scale backward of China in the modern time, also impeded the full joining of western and Chong Hua culture.

下面我们就来说说满清的无限扩大到民间的文字狱的效果.

由于文字狱扩大到了民间文人，使民间独立修史成为不可能，这就使满清皇帝能够将社会舆论权夺到自己手中，满清皇帝们便可以放心大胆地胡编乱造了. 之所以满清皇帝可以搞长达150年的扩大到民间的文字狱，是因为他们有绝对依附于他的旗人军事和官僚集团.

The end results of the unlimited expansion of Literary Inquisition into the the civilian society by the Manchu. Because Literary Inquisition was expanded into the civilian intellectuals, the society's independent recording of history has become impossible, thus the Manchu Emperors were able to control the public voice, and boldly said and wrote whatever they like. Why was Manchu emperors were able to make this Literary Inquisition to last 150 years(Manchu Dynasty lasted 300 plus years),the reason being they had the complete support of the Manchu military(The Eight Banner) and the bloc of Manchu bureaucrats.

普通汉族王朝的皇帝的统 治需要依靠官员，而汉族王朝的官员的来源是什么呢？就是来自于民间的文人. 所以汉族王朝的皇帝一方面依靠自己的“天子”身份（神权背景）压制文人，但另一 方面却不得不依靠这些文人. 所以，明朝的文字狱只搞了30年就不敢干了，而且还不敢杀民间的文人. 明朝皇帝如果真的杀光了有社会责任感的文人，谁来帮他管 理国家呢？

The ruling of emperors of Han ethnic required bureaucrats, which in turn came from the society's intellectuals. The fact that the emperors of Han ethnic were "son of heaven", and this God-given-authority was used to suppress and control the intellectuals, on the other hand,the emperors depended on these intellectuals. That was why, the Ming dynasty's Literary Inquisition only lasted for 30 years, not only Ming dynasty dared not continue the "word prison",they dared not murder the intellectuals. If all the intellectuals with a social responsive heart, were killed by the Ming emperors, who would be left to manage and run the country?

满清则不 同，它所依靠的是旗人军事和官僚集团，不是来自于民间的文人官僚集团. 旗人还掌握绝对的军事权力，一方面他手上有足够的暴力（旗人军事集团）可以搞无限扩 大到民间的文字狱；另一方面他也不需要依靠汉族文人官僚集团治国（依靠旗人官僚集团），杀光了汉族有社会责任感的文人也不会动摇他们的统治，反而使他们的 统治更巩固. 这样，他就可以对全社会的知识分子大开杀戒了. Manchu dynasty was different, it relied on the Manchurian military and manchurian bureaucrats bloc. Manchurian commanded absolute military power,on one hand they were able to impose "word prison" onto the society,backed up by ample violence;on the other hand, bureaucrats of Han ethnic were not needed to manage the country,to kill off all the Han intellectuals with a social responsive heart, would not harm their ruling, on the contrary,would only strengthen their ruling. This way, they could kill off all the intellectuals of the society.

从中明开始的思想解放和与西方的交流无疑对皇权是极大的挑战，满清皇帝们个个精明强干，对此认识很深，绝对依附于皇权的旗人军事和官僚集团使他们有能力扼 杀思想解放和禁绝于西方交流.

The liberal thinking intellectuals of Ming dynasty and the resulting cultural exchange with the west, posed a huge challenge towards the imperial authority, the shrewd and powerful emperors knew it all along, they could stop the liberal thinking at the same time and prohibited the cultural exchange with the west.

明朝的文字狱和满清文字狱对社会的影响截然相反.

明朝的文字狱非但没有让文人们甘心当皇权的奴才，反而造成了文人和官僚与皇权的对立情绪，这为中明以后的思想解放和“非君”打下了伏笔. 也正是因为明朝的文人们看到了传统华夏文明中的弊病在于王神合一的皇权，才会有人提出“天子失官，学在西夷”.

Though both Ming and Manchu dynasty had Literary Inquisition, but it's effect on the society was entirely opposite. Not only the Ming's intellectuals did not willingly become the emperor's's slaves, on the contrary, the intellectuals and bureaucrats were taking up position to oppose the imperial authority, resulting in the liberal thinking and the "say no to the emperor" movement during Middle Ming. 满清的文字狱做到了让文人们甘心当皇权的奴才，使整个社会死气沉沉. 被外国人暴打了一顿以后，一句“放眼看世界”居然能被封为思想家. 殊不知300年明朝的文人们早就放眼看世界了，不但放眼看世界，还要主动向世界学习，所谓“天子失官，学在西夷”.

The Manchurian Literary Inquisition had achieved it's goal, turning intellectuals into willing slaves of imperial authority, the whole society was enveloped in the smell of death. Foreigners came and gave him a good bash,only one phrase "open eyes to look at the world", was enough to be crowned as master of thought. Long time ago, during Ming dynasty, intellectuals have been "looking at the world", not only that, they had actively learned from the world, meaning "If the emperor has lost the support of the bureaucracy ,he should learn from the western people.

明朝的文字狱对中国社会思想和文化的发展相当于疫苗的作用，肌体暂时有些不适反应，但接下来的却是 对毒素的顽强的抵抗力. 满清的文字狱对中国社会思想和文化的发展相当于病毒的作用，让华夏社会的思想和文化彻底走向畸形了. 大家知道疫苗就是毒性大大减弱 的病毒，两者在质上是相同的，区别在于毒性这个量上，可是它们对于一个正常人的肌体的作用却是截然相反的.

To China's social thinking and the development of culture, the Ming's Literary Inquisition acted as a vaccine, the body may have some uneasy reactions, but a strong and persistent reaction against the virus is kicking in. Whereas the Manchu's Literary Inquisition "acted as a virus, and completely deformed Chong Hua's social thinking and culture. We all know that vaccine is actually a weak form of virus, basically they are the same, the difference is in the degree of virulence, yet causing opposite results on a normal body.

两朝文字狱对社会的不同作用，更体现在对华夏文明中人文精神的扼杀上.

The different effects by the Literary Inquisition of Ming and Manchu ,is more profoundly shown on the strangling of the spirit of humanity of Chong Hua culture.

什么叫人文精神？就是人不同于动物的文明精神. 动物学家D.莫利斯的《裸猿》发表以后震惊全世界. 几乎所 有社会性动物都绝对地屈服于本群体中强者和暴力. 比如，弱的猿猴会时刻强烈地表达对强的猿猴的从属和依附关系，比如在强的猿猴面前匍匐在地，主动撅起屁股 让强的猿猴鸡奸（雄性），由此它们可以活的好一些.

What is the spirit of humanity? It's the cultural spirit that make us different from animals. The publication of the book "Naked Ape", by zoologist D.Morris, shook the world. Nearly all the social animals will absolutely submit to own group's strongest and most powerful and violent. For example, the weaker monkeys will clearly and openly express it's dependency and belonging towards the stronger monkeys, for example, go down low on the ground on all four,stick up the bum high enough in the air to be raped by stronger monkeys (by the anus), so that they can live a better life.

而 这些和人类社会的等级制度殊途同归，尤其是和满人的主奴依附关系有着异曲同工之妙. 所以动物学家D.莫利斯认为人类不过是没有长毛的猿猴——裸猿. 西方现 代文明产生不过300多年，但人类从此摆脱了弱者对强者的强烈的从属和依附，摆脱了对暴力的崇拜和恐惧. 因此，所谓人文精神就是人类群体中的大多数不惧怕 暴力的威胁和平等地看待弱者的文明精神.

This socio-biological theories of rape,is similar to human society's class system,especially readily comparable to the Manchurian's master-slave relationship.That is why zoologist D.Morris reckoned that human is in fact monkeys and apes with no hair---Naked Apes. Modern western civilization as we know, is about 300 years, but human had since shook off the deep belonging and dependency of the weak towards the strong, shook off the worship and fear towards violence. For this reason, so called spirit of humanity, means that majority of human, not afraid of the threat of violence anymore, and had since treat weaker fellow human with equality.

明 朝皇帝对大臣的暴行不是奴性，是权势和暴力. 相对于皇帝们的权势和暴力，文人们能够前赴后继不向这种暴力和权势屈服就是我们华夏文明的人文精神，更重要的 是这种不向皇权暴力屈服的人文精神在明代是被社会认可的，所以才会有那么多的文人前赴后继. 除了不惧怕暴力的威胁，平等的看待社会中弱者也是一个重要的方 面. 在这个方面，传统华夏文明做得不好，但还是有对弱者施以仁爱的方面.

可是到了满清呢？满人们对 主子们的依附和献媚，汉人当奴才而不得，更为严重的是整个社会以当奴才为荣（争相入旗），所有文人全都成了皇权暴力下的狗奴才. 也就是汉文明中不向强权和 暴力屈服的人文精神彻底没有了. 保留的都是对“圣君”的歌颂、对暴力的恐惧、对自己同胞的冷漠，原有的汉族知识分子的“为天地立心，为生民立命，为往圣继 绝学，为万世开太平”的社会责任感没有了，有的只是对统治者肉麻的吹捧. 被保留和发展的这些不是人文精神而是裸猿的奴性！！！

In Manchu time, its people dependence and ass-kissing towards the rulers, Han Chinese all tried their best to become 奴才=booi-aha=slaves, much much more serious was the fact the whole society glorify the becoming of booi-aha(all try to become banner people)all the intellectuals transformed themselves into booi-aha, 奴才 , dogs, animal. The spirit of civility of Han culture, the option of saying NO to violence and ruthless authority was extinguished completely. What remained was only the praise towards the "sacred emperor", the fear of violence, the cold and indifference towards fellow human, "To establish heart of Sky and Earth,to look after the livelihood of common people, To continue the teaching of Confucius-Meng Zi, To bring about 10,000 generations of PEACE.", this kind of ideals have all gone up in smoke, what was left was the shameless and disgusting ass-kissing towards the rulers. What was reserved and developed is not the spirit of civility,but the animalistic of Naked Apes minionism.

传统汉文明不是现代文 明，自然其中的人文精神和奴性兼而有之. 汉文明发展自己的人文精神，淡化自己的奴性，需要引进西方文明的契约、法治观念. 可是满清把汉文明中人文精神全部 泯灭了，使原有的奴性恶性膨胀，同时禁绝了华夏和西方的文化交流. 华夏不能与西方文明融合实现自身的现代化，并且自己的人文精神还退化了，由此中国在近代 全面落后于西方也就成为了历史的必然.

The traditional Han civilization, different from modern civilization, is a mixture of spirit of humanity and minion philosophy. For the further development of Han civilization, and to reduce it's content of slave philosophy, it definitely needs to import concepts of contract and Rule by law. The Manchu rulers had succeeded in the vanishing of Han's spirit of humanity, and viciously expanding of Han's slave philosophy, at the same time, the Manchu prohibit the interact of culture between Huaxia and the west. Huaxia civilization was prevented from merging with the West, thus it's modernization was halted, moreover, it's spirit of humanity had degenerated. We have thus reached the historical conclusion: China's falling behind of West is unpreventable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sugaar (talk • contribs) 01:23, 29 May 2008

Chinese fishing and shipbuilding industry, before 1800
Did China have a significant fishing industry before 1800? Fishing allows a nation to harvest food beyond its borders. In the absence of refrigertaion, fishing would be undertaken in cold months to extend storage of caught fish in the holds of ships.

A large fishing industry would have stimulated shipbuilding and navigation, opening opportunities for longer voyages of exploration. ---DavidJErskine (talk) 10:05, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Opportunities for Chinese expansion into East Russia and West Canada before 1800
An atlas shows prevailing winds in the northern Pacific. It seems that Chinese ships could have ridden southerlies to what is now east Russia, in winter, and returned in summer on northerlies. There would have been opportunities for carrying furs and lumber, & metal ores. A wind gyre in the northern Pacific would have allowed ships to move between China and what is now west Canada much of the year. ---DavidJErskine (talk) 10:15, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Article is very disorganized
All this stuff about Jesuits makes sense as part of catch up growth / modernization of China topic. But what does it have to do with Great Divergence which is presumably all about Western advance and Chinese relative stagnation? 76.24.104.52 (talk) 00:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Taking an Interest in the Article
Came looking for "European Expansion" which might have corresponded to Rise of the West if the latter were not a stub. Haven't looked sufficently yet to say for sure, but presume this is the locus for the subject. FWIW, the stream of consciousness is that I was looking 1st at the Spanish Empire, then the British Empire, and was speculating on how a map of the American Empire would look. Since the latter at least till now, has been identified with subject of the article, and from a viewpoint of deterministic historical materialism, the last phase of it, a map showing the result of the European expansion would be largely that map. Lycurgus (talk) 21:47, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * See that the two maps at American Empire do depict the end stage of the process. Something should be brought into this subject on how this was the terminal unipolar order, and how a multipolar order or something new is coming to replace it as it obviously is. Lycurgus (talk) 21:59, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Did do, but have done nothing to address the larger issue of the merge of the various pages contending for what I would call the European expansion. 72.228.150.44 (talk) 04:57, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Christianity caused Empires to collapse over the ages
Contradiction do exist when checked with the actual development, if Confucians cooperated with the West(Christian lords and Jesuits counselors etc)they wouldn't have burn and destroyed all Ming Junks and naval fleets, hence ending their exploration of the world if not the expansion of Chinese influences and most importantly-its trades, so it was unclear how the new partnership had played out, likely Jesuits had displaced the traditional Chinese advisors to be the Emperor's sole counselor, any credit given to Jesuits and Western knowledge is a far cry, it was counter productive to Chinese civilization at best. Sciences in Ming time was also stagnant to the point of stepping backward, no advancement was made after the introduction of the Jesuits, naval ships and maritime records were all destroyed at once, heavy weapons and artillery like cannons and gun powder related weapons were smelted away, even swords were smelted-- Which point to a deeper conspiracy at work. This sad page had led Ming China to be constantly invaded by Japanese pirates! This had never happened before in China. A 180 degree turn reversal from the Yuan. Christianity might have hastened the collapse of Chinese imperialism and its expansion, if not directly, eg the Ming soon collapsed after the introduction of the Jesuits, and later the Taiping rebellion and opening door to "foreign invasion". The parallel is similar to the collapsed of Rome, as Rome became Christianized, the kingdom collapsed and dissintegrated, because self identity and pride became unimportant and Romans find no purpose to identify with themself, with their own Gods and culture, Roman culture including its Multi-Gods religions system(very similar to ancestor-worship, multi Gods, and God-King belief system in China)hence were destroyed forever and Roman power could never rise up to play center stage again, internal warfare between Christian emperors/factions and non Christian ones had weaken Rome to a point of no return. Such page of history repeated itself and the recipient(or victim if you like)was precisely China. The introduction of Christianity is similar, the outcome is the same, the lost of central control and power. There is no indication the CCP is going this route.. i.e. they will not be dumb enough to turn weapons into ploughshare again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.42.223.196 (talk • contribs) 19:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Why the China?
Maybe this article should talk less about China, and more about the great divergence. China's lack of growth is its own subject. The Great Divergence presumably should discuss things like the industrial revolution, modern economic growth, and the lack of growth in undeveloped nations. China should not dominate. —Preceding comment added by User:SushiK3 (talk) 04:18, 19 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. The High Level Equilibrium Trap addresses China's stagnation, not the Great Divergence.  The Manchu section, besides being off-topic, is not reliably sourced.  I propose to remove these and the China paragraph in the introduction.  Kanguole 09:56, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

To repeat the question, why is there all this material about China in this article? Isn't this article supposed to be about the divergence of the West? Kanguole 19:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of the material on the Great Divergence seem to focus on China (which was roughly ahead of the west until the 17th century). I believe that a specific section on why each civilization diverged from the west is useful for this article.Teeninvestor (talk) 15:50, 6 May 2010 (UTC)


 * But that's the wrong way round: these other civilizations didn't diverge; they stayed relatively still while the West diverged. China is used as a reference point because it was static at a high level, but it is not the subject.


 * This article suffers from synthesis and speculation. There's a temptation for it to become a speculative comparison of the development of the West and China, or to be side-tracked into theories of Chinese economic history, which are both off-topic here and are best addressed in existing articles.


 * Elvin does at least make a comparison with Europe, though only in passing as his main focus is on China. The Manchu section however is speculation, has no connection with the topic, and is apparently unsourced. Kanguole 23:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

Remove specifics - China
Remove focus on China! CantorFriedman (talk) 12:41, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Qing theory
Teeninvestor has re-added a sentence on the Qing between two relating to European development. That belongs in an article on Chinese history, not here. Kanguole 23:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * This article relates to the reasons for the Great Divergence, and this theory deserves to be considered as at least one. No one doubts the development of Europe; yet the stagnation of China after roughly 1500 also deserves an explanation. Teeninvestor (talk) 23:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said above, it was Europe that diverged, not China. China is a benchmark against which Europe is measured, but it was not itself involved in the divergence.


 * You seem to be proceeding from an assumption that China was on a path that would lead to industrialization, and the question is what stopped it. I don't think there is any scholarly consensus for that position.  Kanguole 00:30, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe that this is actually a topic of heated debate among scholars. It was generally agreed that prior to roughly the 17th century, Incomes and wealth in China exceeded that of Europe. During the Song Dynasty and Ming Dynasty, there was strong economic progress and growth, and it is considered a mystery why they did not develop an industrial revolution. This was a topic explored by prominent sinologists such as Joseph Needham, so I doubt it would be a position that would have no "scholarly consensus".Teeninvestor (talk) 20:29, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The reference attached to this sentence is unclear. Does it refer to Peterson's introduction (from p1) or Spence's chapter on Kangxi (pp120-183)?  Precisely where does it postulate that the Qing prevented industialization?  Kanguole 11:17, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * It's worth noting that the volume of the Cambridge History of China cited in the article doesn't seem to mention the Great Divergence. That's not to say that the Qing theory isn't relevant – it may be covered in one of the many other volumes or another source entirely – but I would like to know who says it is. If the economic policies of the Quing dynasty played a role in the Great Divergence, wouldn't Pomeranz mention it in his book The Great Divergence? "I believe that this is actually a topic of heated debate among scholars... This was a topic explored by prominent sinologists such as Joseph Needham, so I doubt it would be a position that would have no "scholarly consensus"." So which is it to be? Is there heated debate (ie: a lot of disagreement) or have scholars reached an agreement? You're contradicting yourself at the moment. Also, reference 6 doesn't support the text it's supposed to. The relevant bit from the Wikipedia article is "these scholars claim that although wages paid in grain were equal in Northwest Europe and prosperous parts of Asias such as Southern China, wages paid in silver were substantially lower in Asia". The page referenced from Allen's article mentions no other scholars, grain wages are completely absent, and only European settlements are mentioned. This needs fixing. Teeninvestor, I urge to be more precise in your referencing. Saying Newcomen invented the steam engine is stretching things a bit. A rudimentary steam engine has been recorded as early as the first century AD; what Newcomen did was refine the steam engine and create something commercially viable. His ODNB entry has him down as inventing the atmospheric steam engine, rather than the steam engine as such. Where did you get your information? Nev1 (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Nev1, I am not responsible for the last part of the article. As to the Qing theory, I have substituted the correct citation (I was copying from my econ history article). There is heated debate, but a substantial minority of historians, in China and other countries would probably agree with this theory, so I believe it should be represented. It is not as if I am deleting all other theories (indeed, Qing theory is only 1 sentence, while the others are whole paragraphs), and substituting my own.Teeninvestor (talk) 19:44, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


 * What is this Li and Zheng (2001) reference you've added, and what does it claim? Kanguole 23:08, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I also see that the Li/Zheng book has been a problematic source for Economic history of China (pre-1911). According to this analysis, that book is deeply flawed and unreliable as a source. Kanguole 01:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

The idea that the Qing caused the divergence rests on the assumption that Ming China was on a path that would lead to industrialization, and it is therefore necessary to explain what stopped it. You have provided no evidence that this assumption is supported by scholars in the field. Is there any? I see that User:Madalibi explained this very point to you at some length in February 2009. Kanguole 01:06, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The idea that the Ming and its predecessor was on a path to industrialization (or at least a potential candidate for it), is accepted by scholars. For example, here in the Cambridge history of china Ming dynasty introduction, we find this passage: "The growing importance of the maritime southeast provinces and the centrifugal forces that propelled many of the region's hardy residents into lives abroad preceded Europe's era of mercantile expansion and might have rivaled it." Another quote from the alien regimes volume states that: "Did the dynasties of conquest really represent a major setback in the "natural" development of Chinese society, the Chinese economy, Chinese political institutions, and Chinese culture? Without them, would the pattern of rapid growth and rational organization that had characterized Sung China in the eleventh century have continued? Did they abort what some scholars regard as the emergence of a "modern age" under Sung?" And this is just with Song, a dynasty which preceded the Ming by nearly 100 years. In addition, if you had read the work of Joseph Needham and other sinologists, they routinely made comparisons of Ming and Song to europe at that time; it was in fact stated by Needham and others that Europe's productivity in agriculture did not exceed china until the 17th century, and its iron production did not exceed that of the Song (an earlier dynasty than the Ming) until the 18th. I believe that the idea that China was a potential candidate for industrialization is well accepted; indeed, if otherwise Pomeranz would hardly need to mention in his paper that "the idea that China could have attained the industrial revolution is absurd" if that idea had never emerged in the first place. Later, I will get more sources to prove my point, but I think you understand that point.Teeninvestor (talk) 00:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Each of these is several assumptions away from someone saying that Ming China was on a path that would lead to industrialization. You have inferred your conclusion from these using unstated assumptions. What is needed is people actually saying this about the Ming. Kanguole 16:41, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) No connection is made between emigration and industrialization.
 * 2) The alien regimes intro relates to the Song and the Jurchen and Mongols in the 13th century.  It implies nothing of the Ming and Manchu four centuries later.
 * 3) There's no reason to assume that high productivity with pre-industrial methods leads to industrialization.  The fact that Europe was less productive until it industrialized would seem to argue against that, no?  Maybe having something that works well is a disincentive to trying to improve less effective methods.
 * 4) That Pomeranz calls something "absurd" is hardly evidence that it's accepted.


 * You're changing the context, Kanguole. You asked me whether scholars stated that China was a potential source of industrialization. I have just proven that above (see for example the quotes about a "modern age" emerging during the Song and other quotes). As to the citation about the Ming and Manchus, I have already provided a citation, but if you want I can add another citation about the Song instead(which I had shown you above). You also ignored my earlier quote from a volume of the Ming about mercantile expansion. Yes, many scholars do not accept the Qing theory, though enough accept it to at least make it a minority viewpoint worthy of inclusion.


 * This is off topic, but as to your suggestion that high productivity undermines industrial growth, it is completely absurd; by your logic, then the industrial revolution should have occured in the jungles of central africa, with the lowest productivity and the most "incentive"; industrial revolution happened after a certain amount of capital and advances were made; England's relatively liberal policies allowed accumulation to a point where industrial technology was able to be developed and profitable (which Qing China did not reach).Teeninvestor (talk) 19:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No, it's always been the same question: who are the scholars that accept the theory that the Qing caused the Great Divergence by diverting China from the road towards industrialization? Anyone who holds that must also hold that China was on that road to industrialization during the Ming period.  Does anyone say that?  The achievements of the Song are not relevant to this question, unless you want to blame the Yuan (or the Ming).  I have asked for these scholars several times now.  You have given many reasons for your belief, but you have not produced any historians directly addressing either of these questions.  Kanguole 23:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Would you two be ok with taking a laissez-faire approach to the article for the next month, while the students have a go at it? I think the university project could be greatly beneficial to the article and while the issues raised here have been relevant to the article, I don't think we should get too bogged down here as the article is going to change a lot. I don't want our discussion to adversely affect how the article will develop, or for the students to think that what we're talking about here is of the utmost importance to the article when there may be other issues. After reading the link Piotrus provided, it looks like the students will have a structured approach to writing this and students generally understand the principles of referencing etc and what sources are appropriate. So perhaps the best thing we can do for this article is to take a back seat, shelve WP:BOLD for a while, and help out with tasks such as formatting which are difficult to pick up. Editing for the first time can be daunting, so let's try to avoid putting people off. Nev1 (talk) 23:11, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your consideration. My goal is to have the students involved and discussing on this talk page; hopefully this will benefit everyone (but please remember - they will all be very new to this project, from things like wiki syntax to wikiquette). One of the best things to do in the near future is to suggest what sources you think they should look at. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Nev1, I agree with your point. I certainly will be leaving the article alone, as I can imagine that the resources available to these students will certainly be superior to what currently exists. As I have said earlier, I welcome the help of all possible editors.Teeninvestor (talk) 20:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Prices paragraph
The last paragraph of the article is also a concern because it seems to be weighing research papers about a specicialized part of the evidence in this large and complex field. I think the story is that the conventional view is that the divergence had started well before industrialization, Pomeranz and Parthasarathi say the grain purchasing power of wages was about the same around 1800, but Allen, Broadberry and Gupta say silver equivalents support the earlier date. But it would better if some overview book did the synthesis for us. Kanguole 19:08, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Heads up
I see this there is some activity on this talk page :) I want to give interested editors heads up that this article may likely become a subject of an educational assignment aiming to expand it and raise to to a Good Article class over the next month or so. This assignment has led to good results in the past, but please note that with the exception of the course supervisor (myself) the new editors who will be working on this article are very new to Wikipedia. Any assistance and guidance you can offer to them will be much appreciated, and let's keep this in mind :) Thanks, --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:46, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Poor students, over here in the UK university is finishing for the summer soon! Anyway, it would be good for this article to get some attention so good luck to them. Nev1 (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I would welcome the help of university students in fixing this article.Teeninvestor (talk) 12:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Wiki Project - Politics/Leadership To-Do List
Hello my group has chosen The Great Divergence for our Global Society Wikipedia project. I have the subcategory of 18th Century Politics and Leadership in relation to the Great Divergence. I plan on researching Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, and Portugal. Some areas of interest so far: Britain- Kingdom of Great Britain; France - French Revolution; Portugal - Marquis of Pombal; Conflict – Britain and France; Enlightenment Philosophes – Hobbes, Locke, Montesquieu, Voltaire, Rousseau. This list will be altered and revised in the upcoming days.

Kro14 (talk) 18:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)Kro14

Roman To Do List Technology
Hey guys I am going to be researching technological advances of the time period that facilitated the Great Divergence. I'll research military advances especially maritime improvements on behalf of the East. I will also look up any great scientists, engineers, or leaders of the time whose contributions spread technology through the West. As I research, I'm sure I'll find other factors that I'm not considering at the moment. I'm excited to work on this! Any suggestions are welcome, please!

-Roman RomanHarlovic (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

To Do List
I am focusing on the subcategory Country Specific Ideologies. The countries we plan on examining include Great Britain, France, Germany. Spain, Italy and Portugal; right now I am in the process of researching these countries and their ideologies during this period. Considering the span of time of the Great Divergence, this will be quite daunting! Of course over the remaining week, more specific plans of execution will emerge. Helgacrane (talk) 14:08, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I will be working on my sections on wed. and thurs. (Just been finding info and figuring out what to write) By friday, I plan on having a cleaned up draft by friday afternoon. I plan on focusing on the ideologies of the 18th and 19th centuries. Helgacrane (talk) 05:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Industry/Economics To Do List
I will be working on the industrial and economic advances that have contributed to the Great Divergence. I have already found a couple sources of information, one book and a couple academic publications, but any assistance would be appreciated. Derekl366 (talk) 14:21, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Here is a small outline of how I intend to setup the Industry Section over the next day or 2, afterward I will switch my focus to economics. Most of this will probably change by the time I am finished, I want to divide up the Economics sections some more once I start working on it. Let me know what you think. Derekl366 (talk) 02:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Industry
 * Agriculture
 * Fuel/Resources
 * Trade
 * Textiles
 * Industrial Revolution
 * Economics
 * pre-1870
 * post-1870

I am almost done with my section, will add a 'New World' section tonight or tomorrow, and will add some to my section intro. Derekl366 (talk) 01:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Time Period?
There seems to be disagreement as to when the Great Divergence took place. While it seems that it started as early as the 16th century, it most notably took off starting in the early 1800's. My topic of technology will chiefly focus on this time period, seeing as this is the period of most noticeable technological advancement.

What time periods are you guys going to focus on for your sections? Does anybody have a problem with me focusing on the 19th century?

-Roman RomanHarlovic (talk) 18:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully you can find sources that actually discuss this very issue, and/or clearly state when did the GD take place. If sources disagree on the date, that's fine - just point that out in the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I plan on elaborating on the 18th century politics. And I have no problem with you focusing on technology in the 19th century.

Kro14 (talk) 22:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)Kro14

-I don't think there is a problem with you talking about the 19th century, but I am wondering...does it hurt our page by discussing various centuries? Shouldn't each section be more cohesive? I guess when we keep working on the page it will be more cohesive. Helgacrane (talk) 03:54, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

All of my sources seem to focus on late 18th century to early 20th century, mostly the 19th. Sure advances had taken place earlier in the 16th century, but I think this time period most represents when Europe actually diverged from the rest of the world. Derekl366 (talk) 23:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Overview section needs changing
This is an early comment - I will not be reviewing this article for at least a week or so - but the overview section must be renamed (and likely, rewritten). Encyclopedic articles should not have an overview sections - that is, no overview sections beyond the lead. The lead should only summarize key points that are discussed in the article. So whether the overview is renamed, rewritten or merged into other sections, by the time this article is done, it should have a comprehensive lead - and no section titled "overview". --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:18, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

- Who wants to write the lead? I realize that thinking about the lead at this point is very premature. I don't have a problem doing it but if someone else would like to create the lead once everyone shows exactly what they are going to focus/write about, then that is fine too. Helgacrane (talk) 03:59, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Breaking It Down
Ok guys. We're trying to get this article up and running soon so here are the categories we are going to write about.

Roman - technology Lolia - country specific ideologies Derek - industry/economics Kayla - politics/leadership

Does any group member or other editor here on wikipedia have a suggestion for how exactly to order these categories? Do you think these categories are sufficient? Once we write the meat of our sections we can re-order the page, make subsections, and clean it up so it looks good. Anybody out there, let me know your input.

RomanHarlovic (talk) 03:08, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

-I am not sure how I would like to order these categories. I do think that once everyone figures out the specifics of their own section, what they are going to write, and show each other what they are writing, then we will see if the sections are sufficient and we'll figure out how to order the categories. Helgacrane (talk) 04:03, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

-OK that sounds good to me. The rough edit of my section is still in the works and will probably be done by the next class on Wednesday. I think we should all try to be done and have our first rough edit posted by this Friday so we have plenty of time to reorder the page and have other wikipedia editors give their input. Sound fair? RomanHarlovic (talk) 15:51, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

-Yeah I'll try post a solid rough draft by Friday. If not totally complete at least mostly. Kro14 (talk) 19:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

-Yes, sounds good. Helgacrane (talk) 03:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It is common for a first draft to undergo major changes. I'd highly recommend posting a draft earlier, so I can review it and you can address my comments before the work is then reviewed by the Good Article reviewer. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 21:36, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

-Alright, I'm updating my section by adding about a paragraph at a time. Kro14 (talk) 21:01, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

-I'm beginning to wonder if Politics/Leadership actually has a place here. While reading it, I just kept thinking it sounds more like a history lesson than having to do specifically with the Great Divergence. Derekl366 (talk) 00:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * A history lesson is certainly important, seeing as the Great Divergence/European Miracle/etc. is a historical phenomena (one with lasting consequences for a modern day, certainly). That said, the article should not be a pure historical description, but it should also present a more theoretical explanation as in "why did it happen", drawing from sociological/economic/pol-sci literature. Think about the books we read in class - they mix history with sociology, economics and political science - just like this article should. ---Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

-I know it's mostly just history right now. I planned on starting with about a paragraph of history, my next paragraph is going to link it's significance to the Great Divergence.It'll be updated continually the upcoming days Kro14 (talk) 23:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

-I think it would probably be a good idea to have a section on the effects of democracy on Europe. In my readings it seems that eastern Europeans did not enjoy all of the freedoms held by western Europeans. Derekl366 (talk) 00:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Misunderstood
Umm, I think the article fundamentally misunderstands/misrepresents Pomeranz' thesis (as exemplified in the review by Clark for example). The whole point is that the "old view" was that Europe pulled away from Asia (China, mostly) in the 16th century - and this view, according to Pomeranz was wrong or at least incomplete. According to Pomeranz and most newer research in economic history, the "Great Divergence" didn't take place until the Industrial Revolution in Britain was underway (if not mostly done with), so we're talking second half of 19th century at least.

The article appears to take the summarizing of the "old view" found in Clark's review of Pomeranz as THE definition of Great Divergence, whearas in fact that is just a description of a view which the book/definition is debunking. Consider these parts of the review (I'm ignoring here the lack of paraphrasing of this source found in the article, which could constitute a copy vio):

"The prevailing view has been that the West surpassed the East in technological creativity by the time the Portuguese arrived in Macao in 1557. At that point, China and Japan were sophisticated but stagnant economies. The greater technological creativity of the West, home grown, led to Europe’s domination of the world economy."

This is a summary of the "prevailing view".

"In the first part of the book, Pomeranz sets out to show, instead, that at the onset of the Industrial Revolution, the Chinese were just as advanced as the West in matters of per capita consumption, urbanization, life expectancies, markets, institutions, land yields, technological dynamism, and anything else. The divergence so painfully evident between China and the West by 1900 had its origins after the onset of the Industrial Revolution"

This clearly states that the whole point of Pomeranz' book is to argue against this incorrect, "prevailing view" (emphasis mine) that the "Great Divergence" took place in the 16th century.

I'm going to leave it alone for now since it appears to be a work in progress, but the article has these things flipped.radek (talk) 02:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * That seems to raise a question of scope. Is the subject of this article to be Pomeranz's thesis and reaction to it, or the underlying phenomenon and the range of views to which Pomeranz contributed?  (According to Frank's review, the term itself was coined by Samuel P. Huntington.)  Kanguole 11:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the broader question has a pretty long history; Malthus discussed it. The specific term "Great Divergence" might have very well been coined by Huntington though Frank only mentions him in passing to get some digs in.
 * The scope of the article should be the general concept with particular reference to Pomeranz's work and the discussion of it by others. Something like "The term Great Divergence refers to the purported increase in the difference between living standards in China and the West. While earlier work, going back to Malthus and other 19th century scholars, saw the origins of this disparity in the 16th century, Pomeranz and other recent authors have argued that..." then it should go on to discuss how these things are measured (differences in life expectancy, caloric intake, etc.) and into more detail of various hypothesis.
 * This is just a very rough suggestion and obviously some references need to be dug up.radek (talk) 12:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The second sentence of your proposed lead is fine, but I would make some changes to the first: "purported" seems unnecessary, living standards seems too narrow a focus (e.g. productivity, technology), and I'd say "the West and the rest of the world" rather than "China and the West". Kanguole 13:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "the West and the rest of the world" is in fact better; China can be discussed specifically in the body. "Purpoted" - you're probably right, however, the point is to establish that at some point China and Japan (and rest of the world, Latin America too for example) had comparable or even higher standards of living. "Living standards" - this is meant to be a general term and it's probably the case that it is used differently in different subjects; here it's supposed to encompass a variety of measures. Productivity and technology, but also income, consumption, nutrition, life expectancy, etc. If you have a better term in mind that serves the same purpose, then slap it in.radek (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Radek as far as the scope. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I also agree that the existing way the article is written is off. The first line of the article needs to better describe the concept (something along the lines of what radek and Kanguole suggest seems a more accurate description of the idea being discussed.
 * The way the article read did not do a good job of explaining the way the new theories about the economic disparities between countries have unfolded over the last quarter century (particularly the last decade.) Radek is right that it gives the impression that newer research is disputing Pomeranz when it is Pomeranz's work that disputed the prevailing theory. Since then more work has been done that shows shorting coming in Pomeranz work, and support and expands on previous ideas.


 * I remove the part that seemed wrong so that the students could have a fresh slate. But I made a subpage with the content so that the students could have access to it. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 23:50, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

European miracle
I've just noticed that a month ago, without any apparent discussion, the article on European miracle was redirect here (version prior to redirect). I think that those are two related, but distinct, concepts. Thoughts about the appropriateness of reversing the redirect are appreciated from everyone. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:49, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * When I was reading on this and related topics yesterday, I noticed that the European miracle redirect and that Rise of the West was redirected here, too. --FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 01:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


 * All 3 articles deal with particular books each of which is about broadly the same concept. I'm not sure if redirecting the other two here is the proper approach - although I can see making this the general article and having the other two be about the specific books. If anyone has an idea for a "meta title" that is used for this in literature (I can't think of one off the top of my head) then that could help sort this out.radek (talk) 01:10, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. The books may or may not be notable, the meta concept is. Now, leaving the books aside for a moment (I'd support restoring the articles but making it clear they are book-based), is Great Divergence a good meta title? Or do we need a new one? And no, nothing brilliant comes to my mind at this moment, neither (we could always try an RfC for that). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the meta topic is notable but also wonder if this article name is right. I'm familiar with the general topic because it often background material for discussions. For example, the reasons for differences in Maternal mortality rate and Infant mortality rate by country, reasons for poverty in Appalachia, and many other topics about global sociocultural problems. But the name "Great Divergence" was not familiar to me. I had difficultly finding a clear specific definition of the term "Great Divergence" that was matched this content. So something else might be better, although nothing else comes to mind off the top of my head. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 01:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the term is related to the idea of Convergence (economics) (that article needs work) which is the hypothesis that, other things equal, poor countries should grow faster than rich countries and catch up (converge). Pomeranz' title is a play on this concept, applied to a historical context (I'm pretty sure he (or his publisher) consciously picked it thus but I don't have a source for that claim) - which basically says "look, the most important thing that happened historically is not convergence but divergence. Great divergence!". I think for the time being "Great Divergence" is probably the best we can do for a descriptive title for the general phenomenon - though the other books that deal with it should be mentioned in the article as well.
 * As I mention above, issues like infant mortality, should be addressed in a general discussion of how "living standards" are defined and compared.radek (talk) 02:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If only the term eurocentrism wasn't riddled with negative connotations... James Morris Blaut proposed a term "Eurocentric diffusionism". The term gained some use in literature . The problem here is several-fold: 1) Blaut refutes a number of previous theories, which he labels as the "Eurocentric diffusionism" theories, but his refutal is not universally accepted, it is just another theory. Thus I am not certain if his "Eurocentric diffusionism" is indeed the correct name for the general concept. 2) While he proposed his own model, AFAIK he doesn't give it any meaningful name. 3) Nonetheless, it appears that literature often associated the "Eurocentric diffusionism" with both his rebuttal and theory.
 * On a side note, I fund Blaut argument somewhat illogical: he claims his own theory is not Eurocentric, because it does not attribute any "false" positive qualities to Europe; he also criticized several "environment"-based theories (such as those of Jared Diamond). Then he explains how the rise of Europe (or however we label the phenomenon in question) can be explained by the luck of European positioning (close to America and having good sailing conditions on Atlantic), thus allowing Europeans to get rich on America and thus outrun other civilizations. Let me quote him (p.11): "The Europeans, as it turned out, had one crucial advantage. [...] the America [...] was vastly more accessible to European than to other maritime centers. [...] I argue, therefore, that America was reached first from the mercantile-maritime centers of Europe, rather than from those of other advanced maritime centers, as a function of location, or more precisely, accessibility". If this is not an example of "environmental determinism" (something Blaut criticized Diamond for), what is?
 * All that said, his book is probably one of my favorite treatments of the subject (because he does a great job introducing a bunch of other viewpoints, from Weber's to Diamond's). I wish I could squeeze it in as an obligatory reading position in my course (maybe during the next book shuffle; mind you, the course is about globalization in general, and Great Divergence is only one of many fascinating facets of it). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:17, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * PS. Here's another of my favorite treatment of the subject: . :) --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 03:37, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the article can take two direction: Either we remove the redirects and have this focus on the "Great Divergence" as a fad-ish term used currently to describe a historical sociocultural phenomena that has gotten broad interest among many people over the last decade. Or we can leave the redirects and rename the article with a more general name, and then frame the content more broadly. The "Great Divergence" as described by Pomeranz would get significant coverage because it is being discussed by theorists and researchers, but it would not necessarily be the centerpiece of the article. My biggest concern with keeping the article named "Great Divergence" is that term does not have a clear definition that is used by multiple sources. (Correct me if I'm wrong about that point.) So, if we use GD, then there is going to need to be a introduction that supplies a concrete definition without doing original research. I think that this will be tricky to do because of the debate over the time period, and the western-centric framing of the the concept in most of the literature that I've reviewed. I'm particularly sensitive to this since WP English is an international project and this article is about a global phenomenon. It is doable but I think we need to be extra careful to use the broadest sources we can find, including reaction from non-English speaking literature on this topic. FloNight&#9829;&#9829;&#9829;&#9829; 14:56, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I think that given the sources that we have available/accessible right now the first suggestion is better - have it be about "a fad-ish term used currently to describe a historical sociocultural phenomena that has gotten broad interest among many people over the last decade" (though that can't go in the lede like that). Nuances can be covered in the body of the article. I think the concern over lack of multiple sources which use the term is a valid one - the fact stems from the fact that different literatures/scholars simply use their own favorite term for the same phenomenon - though I'm not sure how much can be done about it presently.
 * The concern with it being too Western-centric is also important. Flo, could you let me know the literature you're looking at? Speaking from an economics perspective my sense of what I've read is that in some ways Pomeranz's view (that the West didn't diverge from Asia until 19th century) is actually less Western-centric then the literature that it challenges (which more or less asserted that West was always ahead or at least since the 16th century) though there are different interpretations even there. It would be nice to get some articles or books from non-Western authors to include in the article.radek (talk) 00:21, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The old Rise of the West article had little in it, and there is already a separate article The Rise of the West: A History of the Human Community, but the old European miracle article had some specific content, which should probably be restored. Kanguole 23:00, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Since we do seem to have a consensus on this, I am being bold and have restored that article, slightly rewritten it and moved to The European Miracle: Environments, Economies and Geopolitics in the History of Europe and Asia. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:41, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

there is an article on the book, and an article on the phenomenon as a whole (this article). I don't object to the separate The European Miracle article, but European miracle should probably still redirect here. --dab (𒁳) 22:20, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

First Draft Technology
Hey guys I just posted my first draft on technology. I cited it but I am still digging up sources to help add information. Please look through it and give me some feedback. Also, if you feel the section should be aesthetically restructured to make it more organized, let me know. I wound up focusing a bunch on economics and labor because they turned out to be hugely important. Also, Derek, the source you linked to us was very helpful. I cited it... it's the citation with the name Pomeranz in it, so no need to double cite it. Let me know as you guys make edits to your sections so I know to read them carefully.RomanHarlovic (talk) 21:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

Question
Isn't the scope of this article the late 18th/early 19th centuries? I think it is no exaggeration to say that the Great Divergence had been completed by the late 19th century, as output per capita in the west by 1860's and 1870's were at least several times greater than Qing China. The article's main focus was on the inital divergence, e.g., the surpassing of China by Britain/Holland in the late 18th century to early 19th. Teeninvestor (talk) 00:30, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That's exactly the question about the scope of the article. According to Pomeranz and other research the Great Divergence did not occur until sometime in the 19th century. It is very doubtful if by the 1860's and 1870's per capita income in England (nm rest of Europe) were several times greater than China. They could've very well been lower even then. Most likely they were higher but not by much (some % less than 100%). Keep in mind that while with the onset of the Industrial Revolution (late 18th/early 19th century) technology improved greatly, this didn't translate into increases in per capita incomes until the second half of the 19th century.
 * More generally, disparities in per capita income on the order of "double" "triple" or "x times over" were pretty much unseen until the 20th century. Maybe with some stretch and generous interpretation of available data by the closing years of 19th century. In the pre-industrial world if one economy had per capita income that was 150% of another that was a truly remarkable difference. Now of course the richest economy has something like 30 times + (3000% +) the per capita income of the poorest. That's what makes it a "Great Divergence".radek (talk) 01:10, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Roman - summary from reading other group pages
Hey guys I have to post this early because I'm going away this weekend. So from reading through the other groups' stuff I can tell that organizing and citing everything appropriately is going to be difficult. Some books, like the one by Pomeranz, we all used so how should we know what page numbers do cite if we used the book through and through? Also, is citing most of the sentences only necessary for now, during the editing process, or should it stay like that? We should keep close tabs on the other groups and see how they cite things and perhaps learn from them. Other than that, once the groups have posted their information it's definitely going to be beneficial to read it because we may have missed an important concept or convincing fact that they explain in detail. The article looks great so far great job. RomanHarlovic (talk) 15:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Frustrations and questions
I am having problems with my section (why did I volunteer to do this?) I am confused- should I focus on the economic ideology? I am trying to search for info on google books and at my local library but I think I am not using the right search engines or something! And should it be broken down into separate ideologies or would it be better to have a subsection on the general european ideology during the 19th century? Help would be greatly appreciated. Helgacrane (talk) 15:53, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't think you have to describe all European countries, particularly as their ideologies - and importance - changed through time (for example, with Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands becoming less important, and the British, French and German becoming more important). You may want to merge some into common sections, or organize your sections by years - but if you want, yes, you can have a section about separate countries. Looking at the article as it is now, I am not sure I see a clear reason for your section to be separate from "Eighteenth Century Politics and Leadership" section. Perhaps the two of you working on those sections could work together, merging your findings. After all, per the definition of imperialism (for example), politics and economy are very connected, and splitting discussions of - let's say - British politics and economy into two separate sections may not be optimal. PS. Regarding using the search engines, my suggestion is to ask your groupmates what terms are they using - perhaps this will help. Also, see some sources mentioned in discussions above (Blaut's book, for example). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 17:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I would be fine having you help out on economics, I have my hands pretty full with industry as it is. Derekl366 (talk) 21:40, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I think focusing on the economic aspect would be great, especially since industry and economics are big topics. I noticed alot of information on that subject in my reading. I know derek sent an email out a couple days that might be useful for you. Kro14 (talk) 23:28, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks everyone. I will try a different approach. Instead of by country I will discuss the changes in ideology through time. (I started looking through Blaut's book as well.) I will definitely ask more questions/ make comments throughout the day. Thanks! Helgacrane (talk) 13:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Patrick- Group Comments
Hey guys, just commenting on your article. It looks good. Looks like you guys definitely did your homework. I am sure you guys planned on doing so but I would add some pictures to help make the page not look so bland. But other than that it looks like you have good information and the layout is good. Good luck with the rest of your page! Prg22 (talk) 16:25, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That's a good idea, but the only things I can really think of that fit this article are pictures of Europe or pictures of trade routes. Can I post a map type picture from a website if I cite it, or do I need permission?  http://www.wwnorton.com/college/history/worlds/ch4/maps.htm looks like it has a few decent trade maps. Derekl366 (talk) 04:30, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

what is going on here?
what's with the empty sections? If this is a work in progress, use a WP:Workpage. Don't leave half-finished things in live articles like that. --dab (𒁳) 22:16, 4 June 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a work in progres, the subject of a university group project. Empty sections might not be useful to the reader, but the article has grown a lot recently. How about putting the notice below on the article? It would be preferable to leave out empty sections for now as it looks a bit untidy, but they're not doing any harm and serve as reminders for what needs to be done. Nev1 (talk) 22:29, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

If this project is going to be on a scale of days or weeks rather than hours, how about using a workpage? Seriously, just create Talk:Great Divergence/Workpage and lay out your project there. Or write the text offline and upload it once it is done? I am glad somebody is working on this article, and of course it is permissible to update articles incrementally and on the go, but in this case you should work on one section at a time.

It is not the purpose of Wikipedia articles' tables of content to remind editors what they were still going to write about. Tocs are for the benefit of the readers, indicating what sort of information they will find in the article. Empty sections amount to giving the reader The Finger, especially readers on mobile devices. Editors' notes to self belong in userspace.

There are also WP:MOS issues which I am not going to bother about as long as this is in a state of flux. --dab (𒁳) 10:35, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Calm down bachmann, it is not tantamount to "giving the reader The Finger". Of all Wikipedia's many and well documented problems, a temporarily empty section is probably one of those readers care least about. The rewrite is taking place of the course of several days, as the template says; further details of the project are explained further up the page.
 * To the editors of the page: as bachmann says empty sections aren't particularly helpful to the reader, but I appreciate including them in the article may help remind you what needs to be done. If you add around them, they won't be visible to the reader but can been seen when the editing window is open. It's easier to see how these "hidden comments" work practice, so there's one after this sentence to show you how to do it (just press edit to see it).  I think this might help address bachmann's concern. Nev1 (talk) 17:22, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Julia - Group Comments
I think you guys are really well on your way with this topic! Good job! I think more could be added to the Impacts of Trade section, although it does seem like it may be tough to find sources for this specific section. I guess one suggestion could be to discuss as different trading methods came along, how this impacted/increased the divergence. JuliaLynchPIT2010 (talk) 23:40, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

Kayla - Group Summary
Hey everyone. I have to do this a bit early today, it's my sister's graduation/party. Anywho, I read over the core countries page and I thought it was very well cited and organized. They also added a picture, which may be something we could do. I'll look at some pictures later. I may also add some more to my article depending on how busy my day is. Overall looks great!! Kro14 (talk) 12:50, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sergey - Comment
Great job guys! Looks like you have all the information you need on the topic and you really go in-depth in your article. The only thing is, I, like many others, don't like to read, and there's a lot of reading in your article, so I would trim it down a little. But then again, i'm really lazy. Sav12 (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Angie's Comment
Group 3, let me just say that your site is quite lovely. Not only do I feel well informed, but dag-nabbit, I really enjoyed myself reading it. As far as what Sergey says, I think we may all conclude that he is a bit of a sloth. (Sorry, Sergey. Also, I'm just kidding.) BUT, if you did want to add a little love to your site, perhaps you could add some pictures. The thing is with wikipedia, if you don't want to read something you don't have to - you can just use the contents to figure out what you want to read and click away! Good job and I think your article will definitely get a "Good Status." Hope you've all still managed to enjoy your weekend. See you monday!AngGor (talk) 02:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Lolia- Group Comment and Other Things
Hi! I just finished looking over the Peripherial countries article. Though Roman and Derek looked at the article as well, I thought I should write a mini summary. The article is still under construction but so far it is quite organized and will be a strong article once completed! As for our article, I am working on my section. What we have so far is really strong and I certainly don't want to screw up our chances of getting a good article!! Great job everyone and enjoy your weekend! Helgacrane (talk) 02:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Just want to clarify that these comments were made on June 5th NOT the 6th.Helgacrane (talk) 02:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Derek - Summary/Comment
The Periphery countries group seems to have a well organized article, but seems to be missing any pictures. I cannot really think of anything the group did that is valuable for us though (the assignment asks this). Derekl366 (talk) 03:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Lou - Summary/Comment
This article looks really great but the following statement taken from the page seems to have someting missing. What does it matter if a mine is wet or dry as far as ventilation is concerned? "Also, due to regional climate, European coal mines were wetter than the arid Chinese mines. Water could easily be pumped out of European mines using steam engines, but ventilating Chinese mines to prevent explosions was much more difficult." Naboc1 (talk)

Hey Lou, sorry that may have been a bit confusing. Basically, Chinese mines are dry and therefore subject to buildups of explosive gases unlike wet mines. So mining is more dangerous and difficult in China. It's easy to pump water out, but it's hard to ventilate dry air. RomanHarlovic (talk) 22:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Off-topic comments on the GA process
I was looking at our deadlines and by tomorrow, June 7, we have to submit our article for good article submission. One section is still missing from the article so we can't do anything until it's done. We could submit our article tonight or early tomorrow morning.What does everyone think? I have class tomorrow morning, so i can only submit it tonight. If you want to wait, are there any volunteers for submitting it tomorrow? Kro14 (talk) 14:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

- Apologies all around. I have been working on the project on word since I didn't want to cause a problem for readers. I am slowly transferring what I am doing and will be done tonight.Helgacrane (talk) 00:10, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I've not properly read through the article, but a few things jump out that need to be sorted out before a GA nomination: not all citations have page numbers; the source for the last part of the Importance of Technological Advances to Divergence isn't clear (it's likely you'll also be asked for sources for the third and fourth paragraphs of the Possible Efficiency Influencing Factors section); and the lead needs expanding. The lead needs to summarise the article in a few paragraphs. Nev1 (talk) 14:17, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Nev1 makes good points - if you don't fix those things before the GA review, they reviewer will ask you to. I'll also post a more detailed review myself later today. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

wth? It is part of your project to get Wikipedia "GA" status?? This is just wrong in so many ways... First of all, "GA" is a completely idiosyncratic project that doesn't actually say anything about article quality, just about compliance with Wikipedia style guidelines. Second, it will be almost impossible to control this, because other editors may decide to interfere with your editing, dragging you into disputes that you cannot possibly resolve by 7 June just because you have a deadline. Wikipedia articles are written with the understanding that "there is no deadline". --dab (𒁳) 14:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * If you don't think GA ensures a certain level of quality, I suggest you reread the Good Article criteria. Amongst the criteria are that an article must be well-written, "factually accurate and verifiable", and "broad in its coverage". Sound like more than style of substance to me. This is not the place to discuss the pros and cons of the GA process, but I think you're doing it a disservice. As for other editors getting involved and disrupting the project, you'll see that the new editors have taken the lead and at the same time sought advice and input from others. It's worked. The job of established editors will be to ensure that the article complies with the manual of style which can be intimidating and overly complex to even those of us who've been on Wikipedia for a long time. Even if a reviewer makes changes it's usually minor copy editing and the main editors are expected to respond to any comments. The only potential hitch I foresee is the backlog at GAN, but I'm sure a couple of reviewrs can be asked to prioritise reviews for these articles since there's a deadline. I really don't see what the problem is. The 7th June deadline is to submit the article to WP:GAN, not having the article passed, there appears to be two or three weeks for that. It's all explained here. Nev1 (talk) 15:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the intention behind GA. I am talking about how it is implemented in real life. I don't have a quarrel with people trying to get the "GA" seal of approval. This is a personal choice. Some of the hoops they make you jump through are plain silly, and most of the time your "reviewers" don't have the first idea of the topic and wouldn't recognize a "good article" if it was in front of them. This is a problem with editors' expertise, and there is nothing we can do about it, we have to work with what we get, but we have to recognize the problem. One of the corollaries of recognizing it is a very disenchanted view indeed of the "GA" process. I have seen "GAs" that were next to worthless, and I have seen excellent articles written by actual experts that were denied "GA" status by clerks with no notion of the topic because the author wouldn't jump to attention and fiddle with their footnotes and images until the GA bureaucracy was happy.
 * You are right that this isn't the place to discuss GA, and you have my blessing if you decide it works for you, but if I am doing it a "disservice", it is because of my considered opinion that it is doing the project a disservice.


 * To comment on this article as it stands, it is far removed from giving a complete overview of the topic as it focusses on the 19th century almost exclusively, while the article topic is really about developments that took place in the 17th and 18th century. The 19th century saw the completion of the "Great Divergence", but the actual "diverging" was initiated during the Early Modern period, and ultimately in the 16th century Reformation. Thus, while I think the content in this article is fair, I also think it fails to address much of the article scope. --dab (𒁳) 15:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Having articles reviewed by non-experts is the bane of Wikipedia, but for the foreseeable future a necessity as we're all amateurs working in our spare time. I'm happy to admit that this article isn't a subject I know much about, but from having watched the discussions during the writing process it seems that there isn't really agreement in the sources as to when the Great Divergence began. But then I need to give the article a proper read through before I comment I depth. Are there any sources you can suggest? Nev1 (talk) 15:29, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not pretend to be an expert in this topic, but I resent your claim that "we're all amateurs". I have contributed to plenty of topics in which I do have professional expertise, and I know many expert editors who do the same. Any glance at our articles on advanced physics will show you that the most valuable content we have is not "written by amateurs". We welcome amateurs, and they are Wikipedia's secret of success because they do all the maintenance work actual experts cannot be bothered with worrying about, but you should never underestimate the importance of experts for Wikipedia. See also Expert retention, Expert rebellion. --dab (𒁳) 15:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Grow up bachmann, your comments are becoming fatuous; taking offence at an off-hand generalisation is ludicrous. I never said Wikipedia was better off run by amateurs. Nev1 (talk) 17:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * "grow up" indeed, "Nev1". If you think I was being "fatuous" about what you yourself choose to describe as "off-hand generalisations", I don't know what to call pompous trivialities like Having articles reviewed by non-experts is the bane of Wikipedia, but for the foreseeable future a necessity --dab (𒁳) 20:02, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Peace, my friends, peace. Let's sip down some WP:TEA and refocus our discussion, shall we? If I may suggest, the best thing to do now is to help review the article and to point out what can be fixed. I know that some of you prefer to fix problems themselves, but hopefully this time just reviewing and pointing out problems will results in them being fixed by others (students), which will also help educate new editors in how this project works. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Dab, if you have comments about the GA process, I suggest talk:GA. If you have comments about this assignment, I suggest my talk page or talk of WP:SUP. And yes, you are right that there are still quite a few things to be fixed. I'll be posting my own review later today, and I am sure the GA reviewer will have more things to say. Fortunately, there are two weeks assigned for the review process, this is usually enough for editors (students) to fix them. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * off-topic? This page is positively spammed by an educational assignment in a bid to make GA, and you are telling me, in patronizing tones, to desist from either discussing GA or the assignment?
 * I am not attacking anyone, Piotrus, I am merely pointing out what I see as problems. So WP:TEA to you, too. --dab (𒁳) 19:56, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not telling you to desist, on the contrary, your participation is welcome. But we should keep on subject (which is - discuss how to improve this article). What I am telling you is that if you have issues with GA process in general, the place to discuss it is Talk:GA(N). This talk page is a place to discuss this article (Great Divergence), not the GA process. This is also not the place to discuss this type of an assignment in general (educational assignments in general are discussed at talk of WP:SUP).
 * If you see any problems with this article, then of course it is right to point them out here. As I see it, the only post in this thread after the first three that discusses this article (instead of making some off topic comments about Good Article process in general) is your post from 15:22, 6 June 2010. I'd suggest moving it to its own section, as it is on topic.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:01, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I do not wish to discuss the GA process, as I have made abundantly clear. I also have no wish to discuss school projects in general. The only reason I am editing this page is to discuss what this school project is doing to this article. Alright? And I maintain that this talkpage is the proper place for that. I have suggested in best faith that the best move in this case would be the creation of a WP:Workpage. Apparently, nobody bothered to even consider the suggestion, instead I find myself being told to grow up and similar niceties. --dab (𒁳) 20:05, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The essay you cite is an argument for the use of subpages, certainly, but (fortunately) it is not a policy. I was never in favour of any edits outside the mainspace, although there are, admittedly, times where such editing makes sense. I don't believe that educational projects usually fall into that category. While they are on a deadline, in experience (I've been doing this for years and have seen quite a few articles improved by such assignments to GA class), there would be no benefit in doing so in a workspace. By working in the mainspace, student-editors are able to interact with the interested community (which is unlikely to care about workspaces). As student-editors are in the end just new editors, I see no reason to treat them as a second class citizens and tell them they can edit only in a workspace. Sure, they will make errors - just like any new editors will. Further, content added to the article in mainspace is much more likely to be seen, commented on and improved then content in a workspace, which, in worst cases, can be just forgotten and lost. If you can tell me how would the Wikipedia project and the students benefit from working in the workspace instead of here, do let me know. As far as I can see, working here allows them to interact with other editors, and benefit from their comments and edits, and those editors in turn can monitor the students progress on a page they are familiar with, instead of having to care about some workspace. PS. I do agree that the main article should never have some empty headings, strange to do lists, and such, and I support removal of such unfinished content - but per Workpages: "It is also common practice to place material removed from the live article to the article talkpage." In almost all cases, instead of having a workshop page, the discussion page can be used instead (again, the discussion page will be watched by editors watching the article, when a workspace is less likely to). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:30, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Review by Piotrus
Here are some early comments on the article, those issues should be fixed before the Good Article nomination is submitted (otherwise the Good Article reviewer will simply have to repeat them):
 * Subject:


 * The lead mentions who coined "European miracle", but not who coined "Great Divergence". Per discussions above, it should also mention other alternative terms (such as Blaut's "Eurocentric diffusionism").
 * When discussing the "Eighteenth Century Politics and Leadership", you should cover the most notable European countries (I'd expect to see a brief discussions of Portugal, the Netherlands and Russia), but also the notable countries outside Europe (at the very least, China, and some notes on the Ottoman Empire and Japan would probably be very helpful).
 * When making any argument or description, please keep in mind that you should tie it to the Great Divergence. So, for example, if you chose to write a short section on Japan, it should not be a "general history of Japan around the time of Great Divergence", but "how the Great Divergence affected Japan and whether Japan was or wasn't part of the diverging world" (and so on))
 * Technical:


 * The lead should always only summarize information present in the article; it should never contain information that is not repeated (usually in more details) in the main body (see WP:LEAD)
 * Each sentence, unless it contains uncontroversial, generally known information ("Earth orbits the Sun") should contain an inline reference. There are multiple sentences and even some full paragraphs that are not referenced. See WP:CITE and WP:V for more information.
 * When citing sources, in particular books, exact page numbers are needed. There are some book sources cited that are missing a page number.
 * Consider adding more links to the article; per Manual of Style (links) and Build the web, create links to relevant articles.
 * If there is not a free use image in the top right corner of the article, please try to find and include one.
 * Per Manual of Style (headings), headings generally do not start with articles ('the', 'a(n)'). For example, if there was a section called  ==The Biography== , it should be changed to  ==Biography== .
 * As done in WP:FOOTNOTE, footnotes usually are located right after a punctuation mark (as recommended by the CMS, but not mandatory), such that there is no space in between. For example, the sun is larger than the moon [2]. is usually written as the sun is larger than the moon.[2] &lt;/ref&gt;.,&lt;/ref&gt;,,
 * Please ensure that the article has gone through a thorough copyediting so that it exemplifies some of Wikipedia's best work. See also User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a. On that note, please read the article carefully, there are some spelling mistakes (for example, in the section "Trade", at least once the word "counties" is used where "countries" should have been used).

Lastly, when you address those concerns, please make a note here. Also, there is a number of valid points and suggestions made by other editors in the discussion above, please reply to them when addressing them (you are allowed to disagree with such suggestions, but if you do, please explain there why you chose not to heed them). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I can go back into my section on technology and cite the sentences based on what book they came from tonight. However, finding the page numbers for each source for each sentence will be a bit more difficult and I may need some time for that beyond just tonight and tomorrow (I think that's really the main thing I need to do, the content is solid). Furthermore, I think some of my sentences were deductions that don't really come from a true source. Like my sentence on workers with better nutrition being more efficient. This seems logical, but I don't know that it came right out of a book. Should I just remove sentences like that? Piotr, could our group talk about some of this stuff in class tomorrow and submit the article for GA evaluation tomorrow night? When you say by Monday, do you mean Monday night or by midnight today? Sorry for the confusion. RomanHarlovic (talk) 23:23, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Monday night. We can certainly talk. You should try to cite each sentence with a source, if you have observations that go beyond what is in the source, this may be a good topic for our blog (and extra credit), but not for wiki (per the WP:NOR policy). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 23:29, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I am editing my section on Politics and Leadership, adding in some of the countries mentioned with less history and more effects/results. Thanks for responding so fast to my concern earlier. Kro14 (talk) 23:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)


 * I am slowly transferring my subsection. It will be titled Ideologies. I have: Laissez-faire, Socialism, Materialism, Nationalism, and Imperialism. Do you think I should includ science? Helgacrane (talk) 00:04, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on the content. See also concepts such as rationalism - and of course consider what term is used by the sources you are reading. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:07, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. I did read about rationalism in my source, but they didn't define it, just described it. Helgacrane (talk) 00:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

OK I just added page numbers to my references. However, because I cited every sentence, the list of references at the bottom of the page is now enormous. This doesn't seem right. Am I on track here or does something need to be formatted differently? RomanHarlovic (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * You can share identical references (including page nos.) with ref name. Kanguole 19:28, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Removed 'the' from my section's title, and fixed some grammatical and style issues. Derekl366 (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

-Fixing grammatical, spelling and style issues. Fixing Imperialism section.Helgacrane (talk) 23:25, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Just put our article up for Good article nomination. Of course you're all welcome to still make changes. I just wanted to do it earlier in case I had to ask a question on how to do it. Kro14 (talk) 23:52, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


 * That is fine and actually makes sense. I am still tinkering with my section. This question is opened to everyone, but do you think imperialism is a social or economic ideology? Or both?Helgacrane (talk) 23:56, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a really good question funny that you ask it. My friend is a history major at a liberal arts university and his final for a US history class consisted of that question (social vs. economic). It is both, but he had to pick a side and he argued social. For the purposes of our article, I'd probably consider it both. Economic = monetary interests. Social = missionary work, country's reputations as superpowers. RomanHarlovic (talk) 12:35, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

-Hello, I am responsible for the Ideologies section. I added a better introduction and fixed the other parts mentioned. Should I add more to the introduction? Thanks. Helgacrane (talk) 02:57, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Great Divergence Lead
-I thought we can use this space to discuss the lead. I understand that Kayla has worked on the lead so far but I do think that perhaps we should all contribute to it. I have a night class and a take home final to work on tonight but I am willing to write down something here and everyone can tell me if it helps or not and then we can build on it. (Not sure if this is the correct space though) Does anyone want to do this approach or should we designate someone else to help Kayla as well. Roman you said you would write? I am not sure if you or Derek volunteered. Helgacrane (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

-I also have another final to study for for tomorrow. But if I have some free time i'll work on teh lead. Which basically from what i got from class today should just summarize the article. I'll just look at everyone's section overview and base it off that. Kro14 (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

-Ok. I understand you have finals and thought I could try to help with the lead (my final is due on friday.) But since you seem to feel comfortable with continuing the work on the lead then I will drop it. Good luck on your finals! Helgacrane (talk) 22:06, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

I'll write a summary of my own section and post it to the lead section. Kayla, if later on you could then integrate it with whatever else is there that would be great. I think we should all sort of summarize our own sections then post that to the lead. After all, we each know our individual section best. 130.49.11.198 (talk) 23:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

That last post was from me, Roman, sorry it didn't tag right. 130.49.11.198 (talk) 23:32, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

-Roman, wikipedia may have logged you out, since your user name is a number. I started another paragraph in the overview, right now it's just my section and I added some links to it. I'll work on tomorrow more Kro14 (talk) 23:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

-Hey it's Roman. So, the lead looks good right now but in case Dana wants a more inclusive view of each section, here is the summary of my section in quotes. "Technological advances in railroads, steamboats, mining, and agriculture were embraced to a higher degree in the West than the East during the Great Divergence. High wages in the West caused businesses to focus efforts on engineering labor-saving machinery, while the East continued to rely on their sources of cheap labor.  This economic pressure on the West caused them to refine their processes, leading to a heightened global standing relative to countries of the East." Kayla, you can dissect that however you want or not use it at all, whatever is deemed appropriate by Piotr or Dana. 130.49.11.198 (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2010 (UTC)


 * The lead is going in the right direction. The key thing to keep in mind is that the lead should summarize the article (and should not introduce any new info). Also, don't forget to cite key claims - I've added a bunch of citation requested tags to the second and third sections (first one was improved nicely, good job). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:41, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed the citation issues. And added more internal links. Is there anything else I should do to improve my section?Helgacrane (talk) 01:08, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

-I fixed up the lead a bit. Thank you Roman for summarizing your section for me, it helped greatly. I'm working on a couple sentences for the other two sections. Kro14 (talk) 21:57, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
 * This might be helpful for you when you write the ideology section: materialism illustrated a shift towards the secular; nationalism fostered personal and collective identity; socialism showed the desire to change the power/social dynamics in society; laissez-faire is the economic ideology used during the the idustrial revolution; imperialism is an economic/social ideology that fostered the expansion of empires for economic gain and used dubious methods to justify the expansion of empires. Hope that is helpful. Helgacrane (talk) 01:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I'll definately be using that. Kro14 (talk) 10:26, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey Everyone, I've finished working on the lead, adding several citations and internal links. If you want to make any changes to your individual section go for it. Read through it please and make any necessary changes. Thanks Kro14 (talk) 10:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I read over it thoroughly and I like it (it's very indicative of what's actually in the article). I corrected a few spelling mistakes but that's all. -Roman 130.49.11.198 (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks good, I'd just suggest you merge some paragraphs to get 3-4 paragraphs, which is usually seen as better than 6 you have. In particular, the second para currently consists only of one sentence. PS. Also, it would be nice to add an image to the lead (perhaps a map). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:43, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys I tried and for the life of me I can't seem to find a map that outlines the Eastern and Western countries distinctly. Any ideas on what kind of a map to use for our pic? Should we use something else entirely, or just a basic global map? -Roman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.11.198 (talk) 21:06, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Western World has a many pictures that you might fit your description, Roman. Thanks to Itsmejudith for posting about the merger below, or I wouldn't have seen them. Derekl366 (talk) 16:00, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmm good page I found this map http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V%C3%A4steuropa-karta.png Look good for posting in the first section with a little caption? Does anybody know how to add pics? (I admittedly, yet pathetically, don't know how to do it yet). -Roman —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.11.198 (talk) 16:11, 19 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi Roman. You should check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Image_copyright_help_desk/Archive_2 to learn how to post pictures. Helgacrane (talk) 20:28, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys I just went in and fixed the lead to be only four paragraphs. I combined the sections on industrialization and technology and incorporated that one sentence paragraph into the first paragraph. I still can't get my picture to upload, it says the file type is wrong though it's just a .png file. Can anybody that absolutely knows how to do this get it done now? The pic I was thinking about is here at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:V%C3%A4steuropa-karta.png but I'd be willing to use another picture totally unrelated to this one, it doesn't have to be a map, if one of you can find it. Other than that, I think the article is pretty much done and ready to be approved. Piotr, are we still running on time with this? RomanHarlovic (talk) 20:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC) Hi Roman I will see if I can upload the picture. Helgacrane (talk) 04:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok I did it. Now I have a question for the group: should we have a blurb for the picture? Should we just leave it as it is? Helgacrane (talk) 04:39, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
 * As you can see your picture has been changed (not by me). Does everyone like this new one?Helgacrane (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Etymology
I am going to the library tomorrow so I will try to contribute some info. How would everyone like to deal with this? Just provide contributions and go from there? -Lolia Helgacrane (talk) 05:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Good job with the picture Lolia, the way it got changed is still good with me. Contributing what info? I thought the article was at the completion stage. RomanHarlovic (talk) 15:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. Yeah I thought so too but if you look at the Further Review section you see that the reviewer thinks we need an etymology section. That section is also where I got some of the new pictures we now have for our article! Helgacrane (talk) 23:54, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, I just added an etymology section to the end of the article outlining the terms used and the debate over them and the time period. I did not cite it, the citations however should be the same as those used in the first sentences (I'm more comfortable letting whoever cited those sentences in the first place, I think it was Kayla, cite the etymology section). —Preceding unsigned comment added by RomanHarlovic (talk • contribs) 14:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it was Kayla. I do agree that we should let her cite the section. Is our deadline tomorrow? When exactly is it?Helgacrane (talk) 03:43, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
 * In about ~12h. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

-Roman I cited the etymology section. Did you get the email I sent to everyone? We should just look over the entire article and note/fix the overall tone. Helgacrane (talk) 14:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I checked out the article and I like how it flows. Specifically, I think our mini-intros to each section are solid. I know the article won't make GA status, too much debate on the content and we are a bit heavy on the historical side of things, but I think it's a very well developed case. Thanks guys. RomanHarlovic (talk) 01:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You did a good job. I hope you enjoyed the project, and I hope to see you around! --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 11:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Back to the subject: I cannot find references that prove that 1) Eric Jones coined the term European Miracle (I found a ref that he popularized it), nor that Kenneth Pomeranz popularized the term Great Divergence (that he published a book with such a title is proven, of course, but that doesn't translate into having popularized the term - just as we couldn't say that Marx popularized the term "capital", for example, without a ref stating that - just confirming he wrote Das Kapital is not enough). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 16:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)