Talk:Great Sea (The Legend of Zelda series)

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Needs MAJOR updating
Phantom Hourglass is out and it also features the Great Sea.

All of the islands and dungeons have to be added into this article.

Please don't just say "ah screw it, just delete the article", try and update it, please? Knowitall 01:48, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Yeah, uh, you're assuming that all of us have the game, have already finished it, and have craploads of time. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 11:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Those are both good points, but the article will be updated as people get to it. Don't fret too much about it right now. There are people out there who will see to it.Cocoapropo 01:36, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

See my point below: Phantom Hourglass doesn't feature the Great Sea (apart from in the cutscenes at the beginning and end).

Phantom Hourglass may not take place in the Great Sea
Anyonw who has played the game to the end and seen the scene after the credits - SPOILER! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED - may know that it is implied that Phantom Hourglass takes place in a different realm entirely, and therefore not on the Great Sea. This needs major seeing to in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.216.37.12 (talk) 01:24, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia is not censored. That includes spoiler warnings. Haipa Doragon (talk) 20:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

That may be the case, but it has nothing to do with my point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.143.137.213 (talk) 23:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...except that Linebeck is still there after the Ghost Ship disappears. What Oshus means by "another world" is never made clear, unlike in LA where it was the whole point of the game. He could very well mean "the world under the sea" - he is, after all, a whale. All that is said to certainly be another world is where Oshus is going, and perhaps the Ghost Ship.


 * In any case, the denizens of PH still call it the Great Sea, and Tetra describes the area as "part of the Great Sea watched over by Oshus". Furthermore, this article separates the two parts by game anyway, so there's not a real problem anyway. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Correction: Tetra is referring to where they are before they jump on the pirate ship and are transported to the world. Not to mention the whole 10 minute thingy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.189.53.217 (talk) 18:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ..the 10 minute thing...is because Ciela is the Spirit of Time. That's why Link pulls out the Phantom Hourglass to show that their adventure was real. In any case, the fact that Tetra identifies that there ARE parts of the Great Sea watched over by the Ocean King, and the denizens agree that they are that part kind of hints at it not being a dream world. Since that part of the sea is Linebeck's homeland, and HE TOO is "returned to [his] own world", the majority of the game clearly happens in "the real world". Honestly, the ending thing seems much more to be talking about the "world under the sea" or some silliness - its simply not possible for it to include the islands visited during the game. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Redirect
This page is a discrace. No other game describes each dungion in such detail. This article is to detailed and to excessive for a video game. The Great Sea only apperaces in two games. We should put only the most vital information in WW and PH article and redirect this page to WW as that is the first game it appered in→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  22:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC).
 * Then remove the dungeon section. That's what's been done on other similar articles. However, this is a recurring area in the series, and is not a mere setting - it's existence is a major part of the plot, and is almost a major character in its own right. By all means, clean up the article, but it is not appropriate for it to be a redirect or even really a section of the other two pages - it's about as appropriate as Hyrule or Link (The Legend of Zelda to be there. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 19:45, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Remember Places in The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time article long ago? This is that article's parallel to the Wind Waker. If the place is so important to the plot in the game the information should go to that page not be pilled in a border line game guide here. And I hate when people authorize this article by simply saying "its a recurring location", its in TWO games, Hyrule has been featured in TEN. The reasons for this article are far less the than the reasons against it.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  23:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...Yes, because that was a list of a game's dungeons, instead of being ABOUT A MAJOR PLOT ELEMENT. When I am done with this page, this article will be about the Great Sea as it is as a plot element/thing, instead of just being a game guide. This article is supposed to end up like Ivalice.
 * The only reason that can be given for an article to not exist is notability. If it's in bad shape, clean it up, don't delete it. That's a lazy and crappy way to deal with a problem, and only leads to this wiki getting less useful by the day.
 * It is not merely "important to the plot of the game". It is important to the series as a whole - hell, any timeline obsessee would talk your ears off about it. Its very existence is literally as important to the entire mythology as the Triforce or Ganon - the same with Hyrule. Termina, Labrynna, Koholint, Holodrum - while I wish those hadn't just been resigned to deletion, there is more reason to do this - they are one off locations specifically used in the "gaiden"-type games because they are foreign locations where the producers can do pretty much whatever they want without affecting the series. Not so for the Great Sea.
 * So, again - if there are problems, fix them. Don't just be lazy and delete the page. Prune sections if you must, but there are damn good reasons for this sub-article to exist, so don't just delete it. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I know this place is a "major plot element" to the series but that still does not warrant a page of it's own. If it was strained of the "Islands" and "Sites" sections (which no other game has a corrospnding section) it would be only a few paragraphs long. Short enough to fit snuggly in the Hyrule article. Why not merge it there? It's part of Hyrule's history,→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  13:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, that's a good idea. I believe Wind Waker already covers the Great Sea enough for its purpose, so anything else can go into Hyrule. There's just not enough for a separate Great Sea article, unless someone can find some reliable secondary sources.  Pagra shtak  15:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Because Hyrule is about a completely different thing - a kingdom and landmass, not the entire world of the series. Though Hyrule does describe the important sites (and demographics), it would be very incongruous, since those are locations and demographics recurring over the course of the landmass' history. Finally, Hyrule is already about 22 pages long - one of the main reasons Great Sea would have been split off. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The point is that the article does not have enough "good" information to sustain an article of it's own, now the only question is now where to merge it to, seeing as hyrule is out of the question, that bring to 2 logical choices: 1) split between WW and PH, or 2) just delete it all together. The WW and PH articles don't really need more information on the setting, so I would choose the latter choice.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  22:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...how do you mean? Besides creation reception info, which would be monumentally easy to find if given time, the quality of this page isn't much different from other "fictional area" pages. True, we still need to cut down on cruft, but that's part of the update that was asked for when PH came out, and that we are working on.
 * Seriously, it hasn't been that long since the game came out, and nobody really tried to clean it until now. Be patient. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 22:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not saying delete it becuase it is in bad shape, I am saying delete it becuase it is not noteable. It has been in only two games, true it was important to the plot in one of those, but it is unoteable to each induvilual game and the overall series. → 0 4 1 7 4 4  02:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...It was a complete breakthrough for the series, and was too many the final nail in the single timeline coffin - as per Aonoma. It has multiple news hits, and even a parent-teacher website. It was one of the most important premises of those two games, as well.
 * There are indeed sources that assert notability, they just need to be added. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 03:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And as for the "complete breakthrough for the series, and was too many the final nail in the single timeline coffin" that was the WW not the Great Sea. And "parent teacher website" was also on the WW not the great sea. And news hits heardly qualifies it, Termina gotten 53 hits, Great Sea has gotton a meer 12. So don't try to prove it's noteability by just link websites not directly related to it.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  13:29, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ...WW had those breakthroughs because of the Great Sea. Same with timeline. I was not linking the news hits to just show numbers, but how it was mentioned. The fact that Termina got 53 news hits indicates it probably shouldn't have been deleted, as it would seem to fulfill the notability guidelines (which are just that it has been commented on by reliable sources, not that it has been commented on by a certain amount of people). Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 18:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * True, true, but these News hits are still to broad, the oldest of these is from 1883. searching for "Great Sea" Legend of Zelda comes up with 7, practictly all meerly mention the Great Sea as a vast ocean with a handful of islands. According to Notability, the coverage of the subject should be "more than trivial but may be less than exclusive", which it is not. Also Notability states that "A short burst of present news coverage about a topic does not necessarily constitute objective evidence of long-term notability", look at the timeline of the News hits. There all around 2003, and one from January 2004. Even PH did not respark a single news hit. As for the WW breakthroughs, I would say it is a combination of the Cel-Shading and the water based elements. And as for the timeline, don't get me started. Across the Internet some say that the Great Deku Tree say "all the islands will one day rejoin" and that Link and Tetra going to "find a new land" is proof enough that the timeline does not end with WW (or PH), not that I necessary agree with them, I beleive in a split timeline myself. But let's not devert the subject of the disscussion.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  22:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This is a news hit. including both PH and Great Sea. Granted, its not primarily about the Great Sea, but it is a mention.


 * "Often, sub-articles are created for formatting and display purposes, however - this does not imply an "inherited notability" per se, but is often accepted in the context of ease of formatting and navigation, such as with books and albums."
 * Also, seeing as this is a concept of Japanese origin, it makes sense to make the same search in Japanese.
 * If you're completely devoted to merging it, there's not much more I can say. But if/when you do merge it, most of this information is important to the subject and needs to be there. If you need to merge the info to both articles, then do, but it is important info. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, I'd like to say I was mistaken: the only reasons for an article to be deleted are WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V. This article doesn't seem to have any problem with NPOV, NOR just requires cruft-trimming, and V requires putting in references to the script and any reception info. There is a lot of reception info, but it would mostly be contained in professional reviews of the game. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 23:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Merging is usually the best option but, this information would only fit at WW and PH but as Pagrashtak has already stated, both articles already have enough to sustain for the purpose. the only other place this would be approprate is Hyrule, but see as you oppose that, that leaves just deleteing it. Can you think of any other options? I would really hate to just delete all this information and just redirect it to the series page.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  00:20, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ....you could just clean it up, since as a sub-article it is allowed to survive on its over-article's notability, and so only needs to be cleaned up... Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 02:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * As I have prevously said (and backed up why) it is not noteable: "searching for "Great Sea" Legend of Zelda comes up with 7, practictly all meerly mention the Great Sea as just a vast ocean with a handful of islands. According to Notability, the coverage of the subject should be "more than trivial but may be less than exclusive", which it is not. Also Notability states that "A short burst of present news coverage about a topic does not necessarily constitute objective evidence of long-term notability", look at the timeline of the News hits. There all around 2003, and one from January 2004.". Simply put: a mention in the news does not mean it is noteable, it should have "more than trivial but may be less than exclusive" by reilable sources, which this subject has been only mentioned.
 * Hyrule still seems like the best place for most of this information. Could I convince you to allow me to merge it there?→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  13:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Japanese, and the guidelines on notability indicate that, like out-of-universe, it is a helping hand but not a solid decider - NOR, NPOV, and V are the deciders, and this article doesn't really have any problems with those. Yes, it needs more citing, but that's easy to remedy. And as a sub-article, it is allowed to exist if it would make the parent article too long.
 * As for Hyrule - again, it is about as appropriate as putting the "Labrynna" or "Holodrum" there - It may be in the same plane of existence, but it is a different entity altogether. It would not fit with the tone and subject of the Hyrule article. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 20:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * At least there is a good reason, lets clean up this article.→ 0 4 1 7 4 4  23:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A lot of the sources on the Wind Waker page will probably mention the Great Sea - same as Phantom Hourglass, since that is one of the unique features that reviewers would be commenting on. That would be a first place to start. After that, Zelda.com and text dumps would be good. I have some Nintendo Power magazines, so I can look through those for info on the Great Sea.
 * 's probably one of the reasons there aren't very many news hits - Google news doesn't really cover reviews as much, even if they are professional. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon survived intact. 21:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)