Talk:Greater Cleveland

What is Greater Cleveland?
The initial section of this article should probably be rewritten to clarify the scope of the article and whether it covers only suburban Cleveland or Northeast Ohio. Going by the PMSA or CMSA has the advantage of making clear boundaries by county. Going by the suburbs is more correct for "Greater Cleveland" but is a lot harder to define, since Summit County, for example, is split into Cleveland suburbs like Twinsburg and Macedonia and Akron suburbs to the south. I prefer a Northeast Ohio emphasis for the article but if it remains a Greater Cleveland article the Northeast Ohio redirect and discussion should be removed. --Beirne 12:34, July 28, 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm not a census expert, but as far as I can tell (see United States metropolitan area) the CMSA/PMSA rubric has been scrapped, thus I changed Greater Cleveland to reflect the new guidelines. Per the article name, I removed most information concerning the Akron MSA/PMSA, as Greater Cleveland almost always (in my experience) connotes the areas in the Cleveland MSA, although there are the overlapping communities in Summit County that should be mentioned.  I wasn't certain what to do with the Northeast Ohio information, I didn't know that Northeast Ohio redirected to here.  With the end of the Akron/Cleveland CMSA and Northeast Ohio's boundaries beyond these MSAs, I think it makes more sense to make NE Ohio a seperate article (I've even seen Tuscarawas County included in Northeast Ohio, which is clearly not Greater Cleveland), but I am amenable to combining them if desired. Some guidelines will have to be determined for NE Ohio (esp. in regard to listings) other than where "most people" think the boundaries are (this is obvious to you of course, as in the Cleveland article.) DirectorStratton 02:14, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
 * I removed the Northeast Ohio redirect. Now that we are straightening things out I'm not sure it is worth making a Northeast Ohio article.  We should just have articles for Greater Cleveland, Greater Akron, Greater Youngstown, etc.  Not that I'm ready to start a Greater Akron (where I live) article, but if we do too many overlapping articles they won't be maintained as well.
 * Apparently the CMSAs live on as Combined Statistical Areas, but I retain my point from above, that Greater Cleveland and NE Ohio are separate enough to have separate pages. DirectorStratton 20:30, July 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * Since the CSA is a valid definition of Greater Cleveland, is there any reason not to revert your deletions? - EurekaLott 14:36, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
 * For starters, the MSA is at least an equally valid definition of Greater Cleveland, if not a better one. DirectorStratton 07:14, July 31, 2005 (UTC)


 * Which one is better is a matter of opinion, but my point is that reasonable people could consider the MSA or the CSA as credible definitions of Greater Cleveland, and so both should be represented in the article. - EurekaLott 16:08, 31 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Actually, very few people would consider the CMSA as corresponding very closely with Greater Cleveland. It overlaps in many areas, but by and large includes a much more expansive area than most would identify as Greater Cleveland. The CMSA can be mentioned, but it should be clearly indicated that it is a rather poor match for the area commonly identified by residents as Greater Cleveland. older&ne;wiser 17:45, July 31, 2005 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't it be more accurate to use the Census Urban Area ("00" is the index) rather than the Metro Area(s)? This would clear up for the most part the "Cleveland vs. Akron" issue. Mapsax 00:30, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I like that idea a lot. Is there any precedent for it on Wikipedia?  Confiteordeo 01:27, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The statement in this article concerning the 2000 Census data is inaccurate. The Census considers seven counties (Cuyahoga, Lorain, Medina, Lake, Portage, and Summit) as part of the "Cleveland-Akron Consolidated Metropolitan Area". Recently, there has been some controversy (namely from angry Akron residents) by the Census Bureau's proposals to remove the word 'Akron' from this description and thus effectively classify Akron as a suburb of Cleveland.

Portage County
I added a list of the cities and towns in Portage County as the county was listed as part of Northeast Ohio, but was not included in the list of cities and towns in the area by county (don't ask me why it wasn't included). I included Rootstown because even though it is still a township, it has it's own post office and is generally referred to as if it were a municipality (it also has it's own school system). Jon Ridinger 22 Feb 2006

Famous Natives
I reverted the most recent names b/c they did not link to a wikipage. I also briefly googled most of the names from that edit and could not find anything notable about them. I realize that "famous" encompasses more than just actors, musicians and sports players, so don't want to be removing legitimate people. My view is that the standard should be a good semblance of notability in whatever endeavor they are engaged in. Having a solid Wiki entry seems like a good starting point, along with showing up on Google.Danprice19 (talk) 13:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

FYI, reverted latest attempt at putting in these names as no indication they are notable.Danprice19 (talk) 21:00, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Page name
I moved this page back to its original name, for several reasons. First, Cleveland Metropolitan Area is not an official name. The official names are the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor Metropolitan Statistical Area and the Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Combined Statistical Area, and this article covers both. Second, Greater Cleveland is not a confusing name. It's actually the most common name applied to the area. A simple Google test reveals about 773,000 results for, while only returns about 22,500 results. It's also not an unusual naming page naming convention. See Greater Boston and Greater Houston for just a couple other examples. - EurekaLott 21:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, whatever the article is going to be called, in the realm if clarity it registers as somewhat of a mess. Right now, you have several articles (Elyria for instance) which are included in the Greater Cleveland area. Then, in the article on Greater Cleveland, Lorain County is considered part of Northeast Ohio. With any certainty, having spent the first 21 of my 35 years living on the East Side, Lorain county was only something one heard about on the commercials for WUAB Channel 43 "Serving Lorain and Cleveland". The only place I ever encountered CMSA or MSA in connection with Cleveland was at the library while doing research for a paper in high school. What is referred to as Greater Cleveland by those of us who grew up there or currently live there should remain reasonably part of Cleveland. Here in Chicago, the natives living within the 6 county area (pretty much all of entire Northeastern Illinois) as the metro area known as Chicagoland. But there is a huge difference here -- first, we are talking about almost 80% of the entire state's population residing in an area with very little separation between built up areas. It certainly still amounts to a matter of opinion, but the bottom line is this: Northeast Ohio can be anywhere from Youngstown to Ashtabula, Medina, Vermillion, etc, etc. There are areas where there is separation between built up and undeveloped areas within the area in question. I certainly would not consider Vermilion to be part of the Greater Cleveland area, although I realize that the boundaries of population  have expanded over the years I have been away. (I have met people here in Chicago that say "Hey, I'm from Cleveland too!" and when I ask them what part, they say "Vermilion"). Again, Lorain-Elyria, although it is considered for statistical purposes to be included, is quite a haul west of where I would refer to as Greater Cleveland. If CMSA's are truly an antiquated idea, then let the article reflect that. Mayfield Heights and Strongsville are part of the Greater Cleveland area. Elyria is part of the Lorain area. I would say that in order to keep it as clear as possible for what we are calling Greater Cleveland, we should, in fact, limit the name to areas that are directly connected to the East Side and West Side of the the City and suburbs. Northeast Ohio, if it warrants one, should be a separate article. Whatever is done, this article needs some serious editing... because right now, you've got Akron and Canton represented here too. Ryecatcher773 01:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Areas were deprecated in favor of Combined Statistical Areas. For Northeast Ohio, it doesn't amount to much more than a name change. If we're going to follow the OMB definitions, Lorain County is in both the MSA and the CSA. Lorain County's eastern communities (Avon, North Ridgeville, etc.) are probably more of Cleveland's sprawl than a suburb of Lorain or Elyria.


 * Northeast Ohio does redirect here, but please feel free to start an article there if you wish to split the concepts. It was done once before, but the article was never expanded beyond a single sentence, so I restored the redirect. If you're willing to supply sufficient context, there should be enough material to support both articles. - EurekaLott 02:09, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The point that I was making was that the article is called Greater Cleveland. Yes, I will concede that a lot of Cleveland's westward sprawl has filled in that gap between Lorain and Cuyahoga County, particularly in the area that you mention, but the Lorain-Elyria area was and still is (for the purposes of the question "what is Greater Cleveland?") its own distinct metro area. Whatever the case, the article still needs some cleaning up, and I'll get around to it... this little guy I have running around and eating the dirt out of my planters isn't quite giving me too much time to 'Wiki' these days. :-D Ryecatcher773 02:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Article sprawl?
I'm back looking at the article for the first time in a few years and was noticing how the scope has gone from Greater Cleveland all the way out to Northeast Ohio, including places like Youngstown. Northeast Ohio is one of those things where we know it when we see it but it isn't a strongly defined concept. The original goal of the article was to include things that people think of as Cleveland but are actually in the area. In order to have a clearly defined area, we should stick to the CSA and take out the Northeast Ohio part of the article. If someone really wants a Northeast Ohio article, it should just be a short one pointing to the census regions in the area, basically the one-sentence article EurekaLott referred to in the previous section. Northeast Ohio should not redirect here, because it is a different area than Greater Cleveland. --Beirne (talk) 12:15, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Fairport Harbor lighthouse
Fairport Harbor lighthouse... . In Fairport Harbor, right? Apparently not. It's technically in Mentor Headlands Beach Park which is technically in Mentor. Though looking at a map of Mentor and a map of Fairport Harbor it's in neither. Go figure. JBarta (talk) 03:19, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Eh, it's just a technicality of borders that only really comes up in issues of taxation and property ownership. There are lots of things all over the place that are associated with a specific city or village but are actually located outside that municipality's boundaries (sports teams, TV stations, community organizations, schools, landmarks, etc.).  That said, I've found the maps at city-data aren't always up to date.  The best place for maps is the Boundary and Annexation Survey from the US Census Bureau, which are updated every year.  According to those maps, the lighthouse is in a small section of Painesville Township in between Fairport Harbor, Grand River, and Mentor that is separate from the rest of the township.  --JonRidinger (talk) 04:58, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I found that map (here if anyone else is interested). So, in at least one aspect (physical location), the lighthouse is in Painesville Township. Very interesting, and thanks for the link to the Census maps. JBarta (talk) 06:21, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
 * In terms of its context in the infobox, the lighthouse is not associated with Mentor other than having a Mentor ZIP code. Since it isn't in Mentor anyway it seems awkward and is inaccurate as a representation of Mentor.  The infobox also is labeled for a Combined Statistical Area (CSA) but has the three main cities for the smaller Metropolitan Statitistical Area (MSA).  If the infobox is indeed for the CSA, it should have Cleveland, Akron, and Elyria, not Mentor. --JonRidinger (talk) 17:29, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Lead
Northeast Ohio should be mentioned in the lead since the lead is a summary of the entire article. It should also be mentioned in greater detail in the body of the article. It is especially important to include the mention of the larger Northeast Ohio description in the lead since Northeast Ohio redirects to this article. As it stands now, the article should be re-titled "Cleveland Metropolitan Statistical Area" based on what the lead says. The term "Greater Cleveland" is a very ambiguous term that means far more than just the MSA. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Fully agree. Setting the issue of the article's title aside, the article covers both Greater Cleveland and Northeast Ohio.   Levdr1 lp  ( talk ) 19:26, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I certainly don't have a problem with mentioning NE Ohio in the lead, but for clarity and to avoid confusion a full paragraph belongs in a subsection, which is where I moved it to last week (bear in mind that because it's familiar to those of us who are native Clevelanders, some will have a different perspective when we read certain terms). As far as what the article should be called, the term Greater Cleveland is what it's generally referred to by natives, and in any case, the Metropolitan area can be just as ambiguous depending on what you're including (being in Chicago, I'll meet people who will tell me they're from Cleveland, and I'll ask 'which part', and they'll respond with 'Twinsburg'... which to me, being from the inner-ring suburb of South Euclid, isn't anywhere near the city, but closer to Akron). See what I'm saying?


 * Essentially, the article needs to be fleshed out a bit and make the distinctions and link them to larger articles (when and if they exist already), but it also needs to be organized, cohesive and clear.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 19:38, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * It definitely needs to be developed quite a bit. The infobox, as I have pointed out previously, is actually for the CSA, not the MSA.  "Greater Cleveland" has some general uses locally, but like "Northeast Ohio" is not officially defined, so how it is understood, even locally, varies greatly. I'd prefer to see separate articles about the MSA, CSA, and Media Market. I'm not sure there are enough sources to separate Greater Cleveland and Northeast Ohio into independent articles, though I recognize that the terms aren't always synonymous.  --JonRidinger (talk) 20:10, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't think it would be more than a big list-style article if there was a separate one for NE Ohio (and if you type 'Northeast Ohio' in the search box, it redirects to this one, so it's already been attempted at some point. There's gonna be a lot of gray area whatever the case may be. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:28, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that a Google search of "Northeast Ohio" returns 25.3 23.5 million results while "Greater Cleveland" returns 7.2 million, maybe we should consider changing this article's title to "Northeast Ohio" &mdash; in a way, saying the article covers both NE Ohio and Greater Cleveland is redundant as NE Ohio includes Greater Cleveland. It would be more appropriate to have a Greater Cleveland section within a Northeast Ohio article than to have a Northeast Ohio section within a Greater Cleveland article.   Levdr1 lp  ( talk ) 00:51, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * No, changing the name to NE Ohio is not the answer -- they are two different things. There is a certain amount of subjectivity here, but lets not make a huge leap into being all-inclusive. While the designator 'NE Ohio' often gets applied interchangeably with the GC area, it's not something that is discernible for the non-native. The problem is that this article spans two different classifications -- CMSA and MSA. Both are defined for census purposes, but in the abstract neither of the two are synonymous with Greater Cleveland.


 * Northeast Ohio is a geographical region of the state. Greater Cleveland is in NE Ohio, but not everything in NE Ohio is part of the GC area (case in point: Ashtabula and Youngstown). Regionalisms (like Chicagoland, Greater Los Angeles, the Tri-Sate area for NYC Metro, etc.) are acceptable as article names if they are valid -- and in this case the name Greater Cleveland Area, while subject to growth do to sprawl over time, is still the area of continuously linked development that connects the city to the suburban area surrounding it. Regardless of how the census counts people for their purposes, the outermost boundaries of Greater Cleveland basically end where the cornfields begin.


 * The only viable option appears to be -- assuming you want to do an article called 'Northeast Ohio' -- would be top create a separate article that links all of the MSAs for the region assuming they exist. And actually, the GC article should be trimmed down to include only the info pertinent to Greater Cleveland. Akron-Canton may be part of a larger CMSA, but they are a separate entity otherwise. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

FYI: This is the map that shows the geogrpahical regions of Ohio. The green section is what we are talking about, and I've posted it here to show what is problematic about the NE Ohio vs. GC argument. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 14:48, 15 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Even the map is not a slam dunk. Counties on the edges are sometimes considered part of one region or the other (like Holmes County for instance).  The problem is "Greater Cleveland" also doesn't have a set definition, so the MSA, CSA, and Media Market are all ways that "Greater Cleveland" can be defined.  While it obviously means things to certain people, the usage of the term is very broad.  Just Google "Greater Cleveland" and you can see what organizations use the term.  I've seen many things that use "Greater Cleveland" but include things from all over Northeast Ohio and are by no means mostly in Cuyahoga County.  And as the only existing article on the region is "Greater Cleveland", Akron and Canton's metro areas should be linked until a CSA article is actually created.  Akron is part of the broad definition of "Greater Cleveland" because it is part of the CSA and the Media Market.  Canton is part of the media market.  --JonRidinger (talk) 18:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually, those other MSA's do have articles already, which was my point about a separate NE Ohio article. See these: At any rate, regardless of the interpretation of the region, outside the Cuyahoga counties and the immediately adjacent sections of Geauga, Medina, Lorain, Lake and Summit counties, Greater Cleveland is Greater Cleveland. Everything else falls either into another municipalities MSA, or is in the hinterland. For reasons of clarity (which was my original point in editing the article before it was reverted, pending a discussion) the distinctions and what is included are key to a non-native's understanding. This article should be about the Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria MSA. A NE Ohio article could be more inclusive of the CMSA (or CSA), as well as the rest of the region. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 18:45, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Canton–Massillon, Ohio metropolitan area
 * Akron metropolitan area
 * Youngstown–Warren–Boardman, OH–PA Metropolitan Area
 * Please note I said there is no article for the *CSA*. I am fully aware that the various MSAs have articles, but there is no connection to the larger CSA for the Akron article (Canton-Massillon and Youngstown-Warren are not part of the Cleveland-Akron-Elyria CSA).  I am supportive of "Greater Cleveland" being about the Cleveland MSA (since it generally corresponds to "Greater Cleveland in the most common usage), but there needs to be a larger NE Ohio and/or Cleveland CSA article as well. The problem now is that Northeast Ohio and Greater Cleveland have been functioning as the same article for some time, so a lot of articles that are pointing to the Cleveland-Akron-Elyra CSA point here. --JonRidinger (talk) 19:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
 * As there are articles for the Akron, Canton, Youngstown metro areas, I support the idea of an article dedicated the Cleveland metro area exclusively &mdash; without content on the surrounding areas. I also support the creation of a separate NE Ohio article which could link to each of the metro areas contained within NEO.  Northeast Ohio is too common a term is just disregard.  It also shouldn't serve as a substitute for Greater Cleveland.   Levdr1 lp  ( talk ) 01:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

The only thing standing in the way of creating it is finding someone who has admin powers to free up the name 'Northeast Ohio', because right now, it is a redirect for Greater Cleveland.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 03:05, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't need an admin for that since we aren't moving any articles; we're creating one from an existing title by eliminating the redirect. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Here is the direct link: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Northeast_Ohio&redirect=no --JonRidinger (talk) 03:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Whoa! I seriously didn't know that you could do that. Alright, let's do this thing! Ryecatcher773 (talk) 06:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

UPDATE:Alright, I started the re-build. The ball is rolling, please feel free to add on.Ryecatcher773 (talk) 15:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Largest Metropolitan Area in Ohio
Hi, just to clarify, I was basing my revert on this - - which states that Greater Cleveland is the largest metropolitan area in Ohio. IP, do you have a different reliable source for your edits?  Spencer T♦ C 14:11, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The persistent anonymous contributor changed the figures to 2012 population estimates (seen at List of Metropolitan Statistical Areas) but described them as 2010 Census figures. The editor also made the mistake of asserting that the Cincinnati metro area is the largest in Ohio, when a good portion of its population lies in Kentucky and Indiana. As it stands now, the lead is quite misleading. - Eureka Lott 15:27, 16 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The other thing editors need to understand is that "metropolitan area" is an ambiguous term, so it needs to be better defined as to what measure of "metropolitan area" they are using. If you're going by Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA), then Cincinnati's "metro" is bigger than Cleveland's, but, as EurekaLott said, not within Ohio, so saying Cincinnati is the largest metro area in Ohio isn't accurate since the portion of Cincinnati's metro area in Ohio is smaller than Cleveland's. If you go to other measures of "metropolitan area", like Combined Statistical Area or Media Market, which are also frequently used to measure a city's metro area, then Cleveland is a larger "metro" than Cincinnati in both measurements. The link posted by Spencer uses the Combined Statistical Area as its basis for saying Cleveland is the "largest metro area in Ohio". --JonRidinger (talk) 16:15, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Population chart
The historical population chart and much of the demographic data is from the former Cleveland-Akron-Elyria Combined Statistical Area, which was recently expanded to become the Cleveland-Akron-Canton CSA. Previously, this article covered the much broader topic of Northeast Ohio (which redirected here), so there is still a lot of data from there. The population chart needs to be updated for all the years showing the MSA population. The recent edit I reverted had inserted the 2010 and 2013 estimate populations for the MSA but the rest of the chart still had the CSA populations, so it made it look like there was a massive drop-off after 2000. There was a decline, but not one of 800,000 people. :) --JonRidinger (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2014 (UTC)

Separating NE Ohio from Greater Cleveland
Since we have a separate Northeast Ohio article, I'm going to start moving the sections in this article that clearly deal with NE Ohio versus Greater Cleveland. It seems this article is supposed to be more about the Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA, so anything mentioning the Akron or Youngstown areas should be moved to NE Ohio. For instance, the Demographics section here is about the former Cleveland-Akron-Elyria CSA, while the Economy section mentions firms in Akron, Youngstown, and several surrounding cities. --JonRidinger (talk) 12:58, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Clambakes
The Plain Dealer just published an article about how the Cleveland area is estimated to be top market for clams in the U.S. in the fall due to traditional area clambakes. Notable? Mapsax (talk) 15:15, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Density
The density of this statistical area is not reported in the info box. This is standard in other articles. Lugevas (talk) 18:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

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