Talk:Greater Grace World Outreach/Notability

Notability
In the realm of being part of an encyclopedia and history Greater Grace was part of several historical chapters of legal history in regards to religion. Its scale of importance from a Christian perspective is while arguably significant to its adherents it is not of major significance to the common reader.

I am therefore trying to add and edit in a way that includes information about its historical role in religious life in America and American law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.65.13.229 (talk) 18:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Useless Page
This is not a useless page or a page without merit for being here. This organization and many of the people here are important in the religious, currentt events, legal, social, social activism, and cult history of the United States and sometimes the globe.

This is a re-creation of an earlier edit that has been we-worked. I will make extensive edits and hopefully the page will not be attacked. I am not trying to create a one sided edit but one that is constant with known history and journalism as well as facts that can be weighed by readers. (unsigned)

Please note unlike others who have provided edits I am proving lots of references including references done by administrators for wikipedia existing articles.

Please note the following existing articles:

[Cult Awareness Network] note the discussion of the take over including information about its leadership who was connected to GGWO as a leader and vice president of its affilated ministry Maryland Bible College.

Rick Ross (Consultant) has written on, covered, and been noted in regards to the controversies both in law enforcement and the media about GGWO and its leadership and similar. This include references in the media and even law enforcement assistance. Again these articles are available online, via Nexus Lexus, original media author achieves such as the Baltimore Sun

[Church of Scientology] has a long history of involvement in regards to its criticism and eventual take over of critical organizations. This is demonstrated in court cases, media articles and reliable sources such available filings made available by the courts in California.

Neil Patrick Carrick was a whistleblower who has been mentioned in multiple articles was the source to the Baltimore Sun article, and law enforcement investigations. This include references in the media and even law enforcement assistance. Again these articles are available online, via Nexus Lexus, original media author achieves such as the Baltimore Sun

Anti cult movement includes some of the before mentioned references and similar.

GGWO is notable for several reasons concerning religious life regarding the media and law. Its relationship to religion should be considered low for its history significance regarding its influence on Christianity, however in regards to the media, court, and similar its role is considerable in its history and the part it has played in the media and scandals. There multiple organizations that send missionaries, have an interesting take on doctrine, few have been involved with the Church of Scientology, been featured on 60 minutes, have federal Bankruptcy Court rulings, Boston Globe, New York Times, Baltimore Sun front page articles etc.

There are multiple media articles, court transcripts, and similar on this, including articles that are listed on well known sites and even included in articles already existing on wikipedia. This includes articles on Cult Awareness Network, Rick Ross (Consultant), 60 minutes interview with Dianne Sawyer, Several front page articles at different newspapers including the Boston Globe, New York Times, Baltimore Sun to name a few.

80's-909's Religious Scandals: In the 80's the church was known as "The Bible Speaks. It became involved in a scandal with an heiress to the Dayton'sand [Hudson's] Family (Target Cooperation and many other spin offs). The basic gist of the story was that the Senior Pastor talked the heiress into multiple donations that was over 6.5 million. The judge in the case and other legal respondents called it one of the worst abuses by a clergyman in the history of the US. This while negative is an important of history in regards to both religion in America and elsewhere.

Some of the known major articles by the Media Are:

The Speaks: problems of power, dissent The Berkshire Eagle, November 4, 1985

Pastor Stevens: words of obedience, retribution The Berkshire Eagle, November 5, 1985

Converts sold their houses for the Bible Speaks The Berkshire Eagle, November 6, 1985

Coverage of the Dovydenas Lawsuit The Boston Globe, 1986 - 1987

Cash on the Bible In the matter of the heiress v. the preacher The Boston Phoenix, April 17-23, 1987

60 Minutes Interview with Diane Sawyer May 31, 1987

Heiress Wins Church Campus The New York Times, March 8, 1988

Eventually the organization would loose its campus in Lenox Mass, and move to Baltimore with the heiress taking control of the property by a ruling of a bankruptcy court. This is similar story of what happened with the Heritage USA property in SC that Jerry Falwell was given control over.

Cult Awareness Network takeover: This was a major case and set of cases involving a non profit organization that eventually would land in multiple courts.

The Greater Grace organization was involved in the take over of an Anti Cult organization that is now owned by a Scientology organization. It is known as [Cult Awareness Network]. The listed leader is the former Vice President of the ministries Seminary: George Robertson. The wikipedia article lists the leadership and multiple references. This includes George Robertson and related information. http://www.rickross.com/reference/newcan/newcan15.html and [Cult Awareness Network] as well as http://www.whyaretheydead.net/misc/Factnet/CO0392AB.TXT with references.

There was also multiple scandals involving sexual abuse, use of authority, drug use, financial abuse, etc in the 90's as well including a story involving the Senior Pastor, staff members and related people. This story would be featured on a front page story by the Baltimore Sun. It would later be covered by smaller newspapers, multiple blogs including some 75,000 posts on the most popular anti-cult blog. ''Church dispute spills onto Internet, accusations of impropriety by pastor Baltimore Sun, May 15, 2004''

The stories regarding abuse have often been downplayed and vandalized by those who want to protect the ministries image. This includes removing of the references of the articles, their dates, their authors, the sources, the court transcript information etc. Some of the transcript and similar court documents are extremely controversial and it can be understood why adherents would not want this information available including connections to some of the negative references especially in regards to the abuse issues. However like PTL, WorldWide Church of God, Jimmy Swaggart, The Catholic Church it is relevant and in fact a major part of their history. Tryster (talk) 01:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Missions (self promotion) vs Notable:
While as a Christian I commend GGWO on its mission work, GGWO has never in the US been considered a significant organization regarding mission work. This is simply a self promotion of the organization. Ironically the so called kidnapping of a missionary was part of the legal history of the church. The leadership claimed one of its missionaries was kidnapped and the needed money to win his release. It was lie that would cost the organization millions in donations, its campus, and eventually its cooperation would be handled by a bankruptcy court.

It is hard to compare articles written by unknown or near unknown organizations or even more so religious articles that are barely seen with major media articles by the likes of 60 minutes. Again I appreciate the desire to focus on positives but using the comparison of the Catholic church is somewhat fair and unfair. The Roman Catholic Church has millions of adherents and huge amount of parishes. GGWO has less congregations the some state wide area for the RC. However we find that GGWO has commanded media coverage by many of the same media organizations such as 60 minutes.

I will remark that many,if not multiple organizations not found here in articles have more missionaries than GGWO. There is a single Evangelical Free Church in PA that has nearly the same number of missionaries as GGWO and while it is a great church I would not say its missions work makes it a notable article for wikipedia. However if it was to be involved in several front page newspaper stories or similar history it should be noted on wikipedia as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tryster (talk • contribs) 02:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Also note because an organization mentions a group does not in and of itself make it notable. Multiple organizations have also distanced themselves from GGWO for instance the Billy Graham organization has intentionally distanced itself from involvement with GGWO and this has been noted in media articles. Tryster (talk) 02:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

To respond to the above comment on self-promotion v. notability:

Spinkava (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
 * 1) If you actually read the court transcripts, which are provided with the article, there is no mention of a kidnapped missionary.
 * 2) Just because one event in the Church's history was covered by 60 minutes does not mean it is their most notable aspect. Church scandal will always be covered by the news. It simply sells more papers and gets more ratings than missionary work.
 * 3) I agree that there are many other churches that have sent out more missionaries. That is why I provided the exact number. Then people can compare as they please and come to their own conclusion as to whether GGWO is notable or not.