Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/Archive 1

NPOV Issues
Darkelf,

I quote:

"In an alleged effort to rid Turkey of all Christianity, the Greek people of Pontus and Asia Minor were systematically wiped out, just like the Armenian people were wiped out during the Armenian Holocaust."

You make this sound like a newspaper editorial, and a trashy tabloid one at that. Find me some conclusive evidence that the Turks' intention was to rid the country of Christianity proper and I'll concede, but please, no 'evidence' from any of your biased websites listed at the end of the article. They are no better than some of the Turkish sites at the opposite end of the spectrum.

You fail to mention the wartime context of the events, as well as the fact that much (not all) of the Greek population in these areas were a subversive element both during and after the war. You fail to mention the Greek army's subsequent invasion of Asia Minor, whose defeat led to the massive population exchange (you might prefer 'ethnic cleansing') on both sides. You state that the Greek population of Asia Minor was systematically wiped out. If that were the case, I wouldn't be here today.

Lastly, and most offensively, your use of the words GENOCIDE and HOLOCAUST in this context devalues both. HOLOCAUST should be reserved only for events of the same or greater magnitude than that for which the term was coined. GENOCIDE refers to the attempted or effective elimination (directly intended or otherwise - as per the Tasmanian Aborigines) of a people based on the perpetrators' perception of that people's genetic ancestry, not their religion, nor their political beliefs.

For these reasons and more, the neutrality of your article is and will remain disputed.User:Pavlvsrex


 * I am well aware of Turkish negationism of the Hellenic Holocaust. The links given provide sufficient proof of these events&#8212;despite your claim, I did not make this genocide up. If you want to try a more NPOV version of the events, go ahead, but the fact is that the Greek population was systematically eliminated from Turkey before and during the second Greco-Turkish war, and that these events were planned by the Young Turks and later Atatürk, as the quites given prove. &mdash; Jor (Darkelf) 12:34, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Plea for Impartiality
I refuse to get into an editing war with you, however I object to you labelling my initial entry here a 'rant'. Obviously you have some personal issues which make this particular article so important. I assume you are letting your ethnicity cloud your judgement, and effectively making your contribution to the main article a 'rant'. No one has accused you of fabricating the article. I am accusing you of being selective with the truth, and sensationalising an article about a particularly morbid period in history. As for your listed links, they constitute no proof whatsoever. That is not to say that proof does not exist, but if you will list websites to back up your claims, could they please be from IMPARTIAL sources? That's not too much to ask. User:Pavlvsrex


 * Germans and Austrians were partial to Greeks in your opinion? Very weird considering the alliance between the German and Ottoman Empires during WW1. As for my ethnicity, I am not a Greek citizen as you seem to believe. As for selective truth, this is a wiki, meaning anyone can add another point of view. What I wrote is the events as I know they occurred, and not some POV-pushing as you accuse me off. The Turks committed some hidious crimes against humanity (historic fact), and these facts have been suppressed since the 1920s but are slowly coming to light. Granted the truth may be hurtful to Turks and Turk-sympathizers, but that is acceptable. I am certain that for example the truth about the treatment of Australian Aborigines in the past may be hurtful to current-day Australians of European ethnicity, or that truth about the Dutch army's deeds in Atjeh are hurtful to some Dutch citizens, etc.. &mdash; Jor (Darkelf) 15:17, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Brick Wall Headbutt #3
Jor, your links are all for websites espousing overt Greek sympathies. The "Hellenic Resources Network", "Helleniccomserve", and the Greek Diaspora website listed are hardly neutral. They only serve to reveal the source of your astounding level of bias. You don't quote any genuine factual sources at all, instead just listing your timeline as 'historical proof'. This does not constitute proof. Again as I said, that is not to say that proof doesn't exist but remember that a point is not proven just because you assert it in a timeline as part of an unreferenced quote. This is a highly contentious issue, and as such you should be endeavouring to explain it from a neutral standpoint. I know now that you are incapable of this, and as an alternative you cite your massacre-toll figures and statements from German and Austrian officials. I would have no problem with this if, and only if, you provide references which are valid, and unbiased.

Are you capable of this?

I think not, but I have made incorrect assessments of people in the past so there is hope.

It's also true that other people can add their POV, however you seem to persist in deleting any such entry in the article. Hence the warnings inserted at the top.

Lastly, I never raised the issue of your citizenship, only your ethnicity. Perhaps it's the ethnicity of loved ones. Either way it's not so relevant. If you have no Greek, Armenian or Levantine background then this argument becomes even more interesting, considering that I do. Pavlvsrex

Factual errors
Following text The term "Pontus" comes from the Greek word for coast, and was applied to the Greek civilization which had lived on the south-eastern coast of the Black Sea. It had been an area populated by ethnic Greeks since at least the days of Alexander the Great, once forming a part of the Byzantine Empire, but ever since the Turkish invasion of Asia Minor they had been in conflict with the Turks. is plainly false. Greeks has been one of the elements of ethnic composition of Asia Minor, not unique one, as it is suggested. Other factual error is, that Greeks were in conflicts with Turks. They were since the Greek uprising in XIX century. Not before. Cautious 13:10, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)


 * The name "Pontus" is definitely Greek in origin. If not, edit Pontus as well. As for armed conflicts, that paragraph was not written as clearly as it could have been. I take offense to your implication that it was deliberately written to mislead. &mdash; Jor (Darkelf) 15:17, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)