Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/Archive 6

Article cleanup: so far and plan
Hi everyone

As some of you may have seen, I've been making some changes the last week and a bit. To catch you up and in summary:


 * I moved all the news items that dominated the page (and headings) and collapsed them under history, removing headings after evaluating the items
 * I moved some of these items under a new heading "current diplomatic relations"
 * I moved all history before the creation of modern Greece under a new heading called "Background"
 * I added a section giving a historical overview of the region under the heading "background"
 * I removed the duplicate Diplomatic headings, cleaned up the one remaining and also did some minor cleanup on the sports relations
 * I've expanded, rewritten, and done a thorough source evaluation for the section Byzantine–Göktürk relations which was badly needed, not the least back it was completely violating copyright of a book (I only realised this yesterday when evaluating the sources for my own rewrite due to a copyright alert) and was presenting the narrative incorrectly and without the neutrality I think we want on a topic like this.
 * I'm in the midst of expanding, rewriting, and adding more sources where relevant for Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations
 * I've tripped over twice on copyright: one was in these talk page and I thank @GGT for alerting me on my error of quoting such a large section of an article. Another was on my contributions for the Gorturk section which largely was my inexperience in being able to write narrative in my own words with sources. It's been a good lesson, thank you @Diannaa. The revisions I worked on over the weekend have now been added to the article.

My plan going forward so that you are aware of my future activity without catching you by surprise and for you to get involved:


 * Continue reviewing all the existing content currently under "background", "history" and "current diplomatic issues". I imagine there will be some significant work done here to add sources, improve the narrative, and expand on the history. As we are about to enter some topics that are tense and will require rewrites and given I'm still learning how to write the content referencing sources so sensitive now to close paraphrasing, I want to ensure this is done in a productive way and I ask for your feedback on how best to do this
 * Rename the headings. As the content gets curated, it may make sense to change the headings. I've already started a discussion on this above so your feedback is also requested
 * Change the lead. Once the above is done, I would like to curate the lead. This is how I started and the discussion ended up opening other issues, so I'm holding off on this as I think the page clean up will help drive this later.
 * That timelines...something needs to happen with it.

Thank you to everyone in their comments so far and I hope you appreciate what I am trying to do is in good faith which is why I'm writing this update. Elias (talk) 21:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I have no doubt you are making the changes in WP:GOODFAITH. Τhank you for that. You took the time to update a politically sensitive article which hardly was worked upon for a long time and I wished I had seen this kind of constructive approach in the WP:BALKANS topic area more often, considering that this topic area is notorious for its edit wars. I am not familiar with the updated structure in Greece-Turkey relations but will get used to it, soon or later! What matters however is that the article appears to be tidier now, and the readers can find the information they seek, easier. Your efforts are appreciated! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ (talk &#9993; &#124; contribs &#9998;) 13:54, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Yes, a complicated topic for sure. Now that the article has been cleaned up to look more respectful, I'm trying to go through this section by section, sentence by sentence. Trying to find new sources on JSTOR to support some important statements so my edits may be less frequent for now.... a thought I keep coming to is its amazing how much the past helps explain today's news.
 * My focus right now is on the 1453-1820 period. If anyone is interested in researching specific issues with me, let me know: I have a growing list! Elias (talk) 23:34, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi everyone, as an update I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking of how to restructure the 1982-2021 section. It's a lot more complicated! Going to take some more time and probably not start any edits until later this month.
 * Here is a three sentence summary of what I think about the period
 * I think this could be used to introduce the "current diplomatic issues"
 * Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk.
 * For Turkey, in the 1990s their biggest security issues were Kurdish separatism and encirclement. For Greece, Cyprus and the Aegean.
 * Here is a one sentence summary of the period
 * The historical unresolved issues Greece and Turkey have had with rights in the Aegean sea as well as Cyprus become intertwined with the security realignments in the region following the cold war and 9/11, the issues of other Balkan nations, Turkey’s relationship with the EU, and increasingly energy politics of the Caspian sea and the discovery of gas deposits in 2010 in the eastern Mediterranean.
 * This is the outline I've developed. Your feedback is requested. My goal is replace all the current news event under this outline, and for the items not covered in the outline to make a reference as bite-sized sentences.
 * There has been threats of confrontation
 * 1986 Evros River
 * 1995 Imia
 * Reproachment
 * Öcalan capture: was a diplomatic crisis that actually led to improve relations
 * Earthquake diplomacy
 * Historical issues of the Aegean and Cyprus are getting more complicated
 * UNCLOS III (1982, 1994)
 * Cyprus: S-300 crisis and EU accession
 * Realignment of nations post cold war involving other nations
 * Strategy of Encirclement
 * The EU is now involved
 * Greece’s leverage
 * Turkey’s accession had them rejected and a resulting impact in Turkey’s domestic politics
 * Blue Homeland is the result
 * energy politics
 * discovery of natural gas in the eastern Mediterranean (2010) is raising the stakes
 * the geopolitics of the Caspian Sea is going to make this part of the world a lot more noticed
 * Some sources guiding the above narrative I've created
 * https://www.worldcat.org/title/war-in-the-balkans-1991-2002-comprehensive-history-of-wars-provoked-by-yugoslav-collapse-balkan-region-in-world-politics-slovenia-and-croatia-bosnia-herzegovina-kosovo-greece-turkey-cyprus/oclc/1146235450
 * https://www.worldcat.org/title/mediterranean-security-into-the-coming-millennium/oclc/761402684
 * https://www.worldcat.org/title/greek-security-in-the-21st-century/oclc/938611741
 * https://www.setav.org/en/analysis-greek-security-policy-in-the-eastern-mediterranean/ Elias (talk) 00:39, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * As previously communicated, I've now completed a draft that covers the period 1982-2021. For context, I worked on it this month as a writing project for a course I did with The Economist. It now needs editing to better match the tone of the article but 95% it's final. My goal is also comb through the 1982-2021 section and try to incorporate existing sources and items into this draft. Everything comes from sources but I need to go through the motions to reference.
 * While I work on the above, I would appreciate feedback as it's going to be a major re-write. Elias (talk) 10:59, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Hello -- here is an update to keep you in the loop on edits.
 * Headings are now the following
 * 2 Background
 * 2.1 Historical overview of the region
 * 2.2 Byzantine and Göktürk relations: 6th–7th centuries
 * 2.3 Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations: 11th–15th centuries
 * 2.4 Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations: 1453–1821
 * 2.5 Formation of Greece: 1822–1832
 * 2.6 Kingdom of Greece and Ottoman Empire: 1832–1913
 * 2.7 Formation of Turkey: 1914–1923
 * 3 History
 * 3.1 Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945
 * 3.2 Post World War II relations: 1945–1982
 * 3.3 Third Hellenic Republic and Republic of Turkey (1982 constitution): 1982–2021
 * 3.3.1 Positive relations
 * 3.3.2 The Aegean conflict
 * 3.3.3 Cyprus and the EU
 * 3.3.4 Energy pipelines
 * 3.3.5 Other events
 * 4 Contemporary issues
 * 4.1 Aegean Sea
 * 4.1.1 Incidents
 * 4.2 European Union
 * 4.3 Illegal immigration
 * 4.4 Minority rights
 * 4.5 Disaster diplomacy
 * 4.6 Turkey's domestic political issues involving Greece
 * Changes
 * The above are the headings as of today to reflect the content, the culmination of three months of work on this page. All content now sits under three main headings: background, history, and contemporary issues. This distinguishes history before the formation of the modern nations and also provides a place to analyse unresolved issues. Everything in background and history has been written, sourced or otherwise reviewed by me.
 * 1982-2021 section has now been implemented, a complete re-write replacing news events with analysis. While I did this with all the previous periods as well, this was much more heavily researched by me. It has recent perspective to make this article something to be proud of as it's taking in the latest of journals. I still need to add more sources but the text I'm now happy with.
 * All news events that I could not incorporate are under the "other events" sub-heading and which I'm still reviewing. I've deleted a lot of items that when I checked out were not notable or credibly sourced.
 * added an introduction to contemporary issues that I previously wrote in this talk page.
 * created the headings "Minority rights", "illegal immigration", and "Turkey's domestic political issues involving Greece" which cut the "other events" in half
 * Removed text in Aegean sea section so that is it more focused on un-resolved issues rather than explaining the history of the dispute which is not needed. I like how it stands now and believe we need this approach replicated in the other headings. On a related note, added a lot more main pages under headings to reduce the article size.
 * I've removed the two tags on the overall article and instead put new ones in the areas still needing work. Primarily, the "other events" and all of the "contemporary issues" section.
 * other minor edits but you can see that in the versioning. Elias (talk) 18:20, 14 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I have now completed the cleanup. With the exception of the timeline section and the lede, I have reviewed and edited the entire article. Even though I removed a lot of text and news items (reducing the article size by 30,000 bytes since my last update) I tried my best to keep sources, mostly news reports, and use them as part of a narrative. Although one day it may be worth removing them all together, as journals start appearing on the topics.
 * I combined the section on 1982-2021 with the contemporary issues sections as this eliminated double up. I renamed some headings and did some other changes, and there is more pruning needed but the point of this post is to say I am now done on the substantive edits.
 * This is the current summary of content which I think when you compare to how it was before January, is a huge improvement. Without reading further, it gives you a solid snapshot of what relations are.
 * 2 Background
 * 2.1 Historical overview of the region
 * 2.2 Byzantine and Göktürk relations: 6th–7th centuries
 * 2.3 Byzantine and Seljuk-Ottoman relations: 11th–15th centuries
 * 2.4 Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations: 1453–1821
 * 3 History
 * 3.1 Formation of Greece: 1822–1832
 * 3.2 Kingdom of Greece and Ottoman Empire: 1832–1913
 * 3.3 Formation of Turkey: 1914–1923
 * 3.4 Initial relations between Greece and Turkey: 1923–1945
 * 3.5 Post World War II relations: 1945–1982
 * 4 Contemporary history and issues
 * 4.1 Positive relations
 * 4.1.1 Disaster diplomacy
 * 4.2 The Aegean conflict
 * 4.2.1 Issues
 * 4.2.2 Incidents
 * 4.3 Cyprus and the EU
 * 4.4 Energy pipelines
 * 4.5 Minority rights
 * 4.6 Migrants
 * 4.7 Turkish insurgents and asylum seekers
 * 4.8 Sports relations
 * @TU-nor @SilentResident @Future Perfect at Sunrise Can we please now have another look at the lede? Its been a long three months of house keeping (and house building) and its all I wanted to do in the first place! Once this is done, I want to nominate the article for good article review. Elias (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)
 * @TU-nor @SilentResident @Future Perfect at Sunrise Can we please now have another look at the lede? Its been a long three months of house keeping (and house building) and its all I wanted to do in the first place! Once this is done, I want to nominate the article for good article review. Elias (talk) 06:37, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

There was a longstanding need to reduce the reliance on news reports in this article and give some more historical perspective. I haven't looked at your additions in detail, but your efforts appear to be in that exact direction. Thank you for your work. --GGT (talk) 00:52, 28 January 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you: that's exactly my goal. Trying to see things holistically and explain them big picture. It's hard to read some of this history, so it may take some iterations to get the edits right. Elias (talk) 02:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

You did a great job my friend, have to say, thank you. Redman19 (talk) 10:12, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thank you! Been trying my best to see things holistically to minimise bias, so your feedback is appreciated. I've still got a long way to go: the 1982-2021 history is my focus right now. Trying to find journals on JSTOR to help design an analytical narrative like in previous sections and reimagine how this section looks. Elias (talk) 08:15, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your work. Beshogur (talk) 11:26, 12 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Thanks! I've been thinking, the Byzantine-Gorturk section, I think it merits the creation of a new page as this story is repeated in several pages and it could do with more expansions and more work. Elias (talk) 08:17, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Proposal: New lead introduction
With the article re-written and in line with Manual_of_Style/Lead_section, I want to propose the following replacement. Its using text currently in the introduction for "Contemporary history and issues".

''Greece and Turkey have a long history but formal relations as nation states since 1923 when Turkey was recognised as a state. Relations exist before 1923 when Turkey is considered a successor state of the Ottoman Empire. Greece was formed in 1828 when it gain independence from the Ottoman Empire. Culturally, Greeks and Turks have had relations as early as the 6th century CE.

''Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk. ''

''Control of the eastern Mediterranean and Aegean remain the basis of their rivalry. Post WWII, the UNCLOS treaty, decolonisation of Cyprus and the addition of the Dodecanese to Greece’s territory has been what unpins their turbulent contemporary history and relations. There are several issues that dominate current relations, which include territory disputes, minority rights, and Turkey's relationship with the EU and its members especially Cyprus. . Control over energy pipelines is increasingly a focus in their relations. Elias (talk) 06:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I still object to the cut-off point of 1923. Relations between Greece and Turkey existed since 1830. The two states already were "Greece" and "Turkey" during that time, so their relations during that period are fully within the scope of this article. Besides, your current "Relations exist before 1923…" sentence is ungrammatical. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:24, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * It's valid to say relations start with Greece's formation and I've attempted to provide an argument for it (refer to the intro of the Greece–Turkey_relations). That said, it's also like saying Russian Empire–United States relations, Soviet Union–United States relations, Russia–United States relations are the same despite Wikipedia not doing so and are a similar scenario. It also has implications so would like to get views from people with Turkish nationality. Thank you for pointing out the grammar error, I'll propose a rewrite once we identify the consensus and any other issues. I assume you are ok with the rest of the rewrite, thank you for your input. Elias (talk) 17:21, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
 * @GGT @Beshogur @TU-nor @Redman19 would you please share your perspective? Elias (talk) 18:36, 27 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Revised proposal to replace lead section, incorporating Fut.Perf. feedback and other word smithing.

''Greece and Turkey have a long history. Formal relations as nation states since 1830 when Greece was recognised as an independent state by the Ottoman Empire. Turkey was formed in 1923 and is considered the legal successor (or continuation) of the Ottoman Empire. Culturally, Greeks and Turks have had relations as early as the 6th century CE.

''Greece and Turkey since their formation have used real and imagined trauma of each other to justify their nationalism. Yet, Greek-Turkish feuding was not a significant factor in international relations from 1930 to 1955 and during the cold war decades, domestic and bipolarity politics limited their competitiveness. However by the mid 1990s and decades to follow, the restraint on their rivalry was removed and both nations had become each others biggest security risk. ''

''Control of the eastern Mediterranean and Aegean remain the basis of their rivalry. Post World War II the UNCLOS treaty, decolonisation of Cyprus and the addition of the Dodecanese to Greece’s territory has been what unpins their turbulent contemporary history and relations. There are several issues that frequent in their current relations, which include border disputes over the sea and air, minority rights, and Turkey's relationship with the EU and its members especially Cyprus. Control over energy pipelines is increasingly a focus in their relations. Elias (talk) 19:00, 28 April 2022 (UTC)


 * I added some of the recent edits in this lead into the timeline (ie, the 1983 Blood Christmas).
 * No further feedback is noted. I will now replace the lead section and if it's a problem please revert. Elias (talk) 23:40, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Reducing the article size
The article as of this moment is 137,007 bytes which is 37-77k over what WP:TOOLONG suggests. It's inaccessible as the information is overwhelming. I can speak to this: it took me three months to rewrite this page. No one book covers this entire set of topics and partly why I enjoyed the task.

I've created Draft:Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire to move most of the "background" onto another page and we can keep it to just one sentence on this page. This will reduce the page by 16k. (If people don't agree, this page has value for other reasons so not a wasted effort.) Another two ideas is we move the Ottoman and Romioi/Rum relations section to its own page, which would be another 17k and create a Greece-Ottoman relations page would be another 10k.

I think this gets is over the line at the minimum. Any other ideas welcome. Elias (talk) 05:29, 2 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The incidents under the Aegean dispute belong in the Aegean dispute. This would reduce the page by another 11,331. I've posted in the pages talk if the community around that article want to accept it.
 * The net of the above would mean 55k can be reduced from the article page. The only issue right now is I'm not sure where the Rum Millet information belongs best. Perhaps Background of the Greek War of Independence? The content itself has a concise mix that is actually very relevant to the lead up to Greece's revolution and is perfect background information. Would love to get other people's thoughts on the above. Elias (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Given the previous consensus based on the discussion in January 2022, content from 1830 only should be on this page. Now that Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire has been created and approved, I have move the Gorturk, Seljuk and Ottoman relations with the Byzantines and will perform a summary link to that page on this article. This keeps it on the page, but in summary reduces the information overload and article size. It also will prevent future issues of an article merge. Elias (talk) 16:31, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

RfC on article coverage and length
To meet the guideline of WP:TOOLONG, I want to propose that the content from the formation of Greece in 1822 until the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire is made into a new article, Greece–Ottoman Empire relations. In effect, it uses the Treaty of Lausanne as the start of modern relations and where this article starts. The content removed will be summarised for the key points and referred to this new page. Elias (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2022 (UTC)
 * When I look at the article as a whole, there are long texts about the the formation of Greece and Turkey. Same thing for the history of the Greek people and the Turk. The part about Greece and Ottoman Empire does not look that long, however. That could make a new article too short. But still condense everything mentioned here in this article. Senorangel (talk) 00:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I believe almost all of of 1453-1821 content in addition to the 1822-1922 content could be on the same new article I'm proposing, more relevant and appropriate. Leaving also some summary sentences. It's the Turkey formation content that needs some thought... Elias (talk) 02:00, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * This is a WP:SPLIT matter, and as such is not an RfC matter. -- Red rose64 &#x1f339; (talk) 15:54, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I was just following what another editor said he expected in approving a new page after I moved other sections that had consensus from January. I will adjust accordingly. Elias (talk) 16:23, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

Splitting proposal
Context There was a discussion in January 2022 on the scope of the article and its issues. Since then there has been an extensive rewrite of the article that now has it recognised in GA status. This week I've been moving content to other pages, such as the newly created Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire in line with January's consensus and because it was also new content I wrote this year. I believe a reduction in the scope of this article will enable it to increase in quality further. I also believe this period, the content being proposed, could be expanded on further if it had it's own article.

Implications It will reduce 27k in this article to better align with WP:TOOLONG which is the main impetus. Doing so has an implicit consensus that the Treaty of Lausanne is when modern relations start between the two countries and the scope and why I'm more sensitive to how this content is split.

Proposal I'm proposing that the sections be split into a separate page called Greece–Ottoman Empire relations..
 * Greece–Turkey relations
 * Greece–Turkey relations: all of it
 * Greece–Turkey relations: all of it
 * Greece–Turkey relations: some of it

Separately, I believe the section Greece–Turkey_relations should be moved off this page and live on Aegean dispute which will also reduce the article by 11k. The decision on the above combined will make this an 83k sized article.

Elias (talk) 17:17, 7 May 2022 (UTC)


 * I plan to cut off discussion on the 14th of May, Given I am asking for two things, and because I prefer action to talking, I will address the second and easier request now.
 * The section on Aegean Incidents has been copied in the Aegean dispute page. A notice in the talk page was first made May 2nd with no response. There have no comments since I announced on May 6 and no reverts since I copied it on May 7. As its been a week since my first announcement, and the content lives now elsewhere happily, I believe this gives enough notice and so will complete the task by removing it from this page. Elias (talk) 04:56, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Its been 9 days since this notice was posted and there have been no comments for or against. As this is to comply with Wikipedia's Article size, I move that this is not a controversial decision and will proceed with creating the new article Greece–Ottoman Empire relations, removing the split notice, and removing duplicate content from this page. Elias (talk) 08:29, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Completion
Hi everyone -- I believe my work on this page is now at its end.

The content has been significantly expanded on with sources checked and added, as I've documented before on this page. The timeline has been cleaned up. The lead is rewritten. I've moved content onto two new pages to allow for more expansion and keep it to summary style on this page (Greece–Ottoman Empire relations and Foreign relations of the Byzantine Empire). The headings are now stable. I've made an attempt at improving the images on the page and could do with some more help on this.

I've nominated the article for GA review largely because I am out of ideas of how to improve it now. I will let that process determine what happens next in the absence of any other feedback. Elias (talk) 22:07, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

To-do list
in response to your request at WikiProject_Good_articles/GAN_Backlog_Drives/June_2022, I won't be re-reviewing this article. This is because in my GAN reviews, i review every single source for verification. In this case, I do not have access to every single source. However, I am willing to check over your progress of the GAN issues I brought up and leave the following to-do list of remaining issues that need working on. For now, I'll focus on the parts that you've worked through already with the strikeouts first at Talk:Greece–Turkey relations/GA2.

Sentence citations needed
*Greece and Ottoman Empire: "Having created a separate government in Ankara" ''Response: Deleted the sentence, not needed. Elias (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)''

*Post World War II relations: "In 1950 both fought alongside each other at the Korean War" ''Response: Rewrote the sentence and added a citation. Elias (talk) 06:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)''