Talk:Green Scare

Removal of Blog sources
I have removed the everything sourced to a blog, as they are not reliable and are potentially libelous. I also reinstated the "domestic terrorism" term. Read the source - that is exactly what they were charged with according to the FBI (hence the quotes). I cleaned up a few other things (including attibuting the term "political prisoner", as that is the POV of an anarchist news source). I have no problem with the content of what i removed (although some if it didn't make sense) if it can be accurately cited with reliable sources. Rockpocket 20:13, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The sourcing for this article is problematic. We need to find mainstream news sources, not independent media, no blogs or personal websites/pages, and no websites where people are free to post their own stories. If the material is accurate and notable, there are bound to be reliable news sources available. See WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:NOR. SlimVirgin (talk) 03:05, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * God, why is Wikipedia more conservative than the mainstream press, acadamia, and just about every other 21st century institution when it comes to sourcing? You people live in the stone age Chanders1 11:59, 30 May 2006.
 * WP:V - every idiot with webspace and a subversive agenda does not qualify as a notable source.  Rockpock e  t  01:43, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * but every idiot with the monetary funds to host a mainstream media outlet IS? -KJB —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.62.190.143 (talk) 01:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC).

Peter Young
The AP article about Peter's new charges wasn't printed many places (I think it came out on Christmass). It can be read in its entirety on his support site or if you want log into siouxcityjournal.com they have the same article. Dumpster 08:52, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the AP source is fine for reporting his charges, but i can't see anything in it about it being unusual for the states to charge after federal charges. That was what i was querying, though its fine as it is, i think. Rockpocket 09:09, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Not NPOV
Looks like this article is very biased and supportive of the animal rights movement. For example the External Links has many sympathetic links of which most are irrelevant, but not a single FBI or government site. Also words like "liberated" and categorizing this as mass hysteria is questionable. Someone with expertize in this field should try balancing this. Lapinmies 20:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The article itself is about hysteria among environmentalists, making it difficult to avoid using mainly pro-animal rights sources. While not an expert per se, I have been widely involved in its development (and i most certainly not a sympathizer, infact i'm usually classed as the exact opposite - see Pro-Test and animal testing!). I take your point about the external links section, the "liberating" and the mass hysteria category, i would have removed that myself had i noticed. However, those excepted, i don't believe it is POV, as the convictions indictments are explained as fact, the intro describes the feeling among the community and the criticism is sourced. Is there other specific you would like changed to balance the article? Rockpocket 20:50, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Looks a lot better already. Good additions and rewording, I don't have any major objections with this now. Lapinmies 21:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Excellent. Thanks for you input. Sometimes when you are too close to an article, its difficult to see the bigger picture. Taking a fresh look, i think it was a bit unbalanced. If you have no objections, i'm going to remove the dispute tag now. I'll try and keep a close eye on balance in future. But do put it back if you feel it becomes one sided again. Rockpocket 23:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * ==Terrorism==

I replaced the term "domestic terrorism." The page said that the indictment charged people with domestic terrorism. This is incorrect. The FBI alleges that the defendants charged in the indictment committed acts of domestic terrorism, but none of the individuals charged are facing terrorism charges. Half of them aren't even in jail. Whether or not it is appropriate to label people, who go out of their way not to hut people, terrorists is debatable even in the mainstream news media. I am not trying to remove the term terrorism from the page I think the fact that the FBI is trying to paint these people as terrorists is an essential part of the story, I just think that the facts need to clear. Dumpster 07:20, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I re-added the domestic terrorism stuff below the descriptions of the crimes saying that the FBI considers the crimes to be acts of domestic terrorism. This should make it clear that they are not charged with any crimes called "domestic terrorism," but the FBI's claim that it is is not omitted Dumpster 07:47, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair point, Dumpster. The reason i added it back was because that was the language the FBI press release used - but i agree the rewording you have used is more accurate and fair. Rockpocket 18:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The IRA was famous for going out of its way to provide warnings to many of its bombings so that people would not die. If the assertion is that the ALF/ELF are as much terrorist groups as the IRA I think most people could live with that but I wouldn't think it was too flattering for ELF/ALF.


 * There is also the occasional problem of animal rights protesters going out of their way to hurt people. There are instances of them resorting to car bombs. TMLutas 22:07, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'd be really curious to see references for this last assertion. I've never heard of anyone being hurt by an ALF/ELF action, or car bombs being used by AR activists. Where is this info coming from? Murderbike 23:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Violent domestic terrorism
I'm reverting the criticism of the use of the phrase "violent domestic terrorism" for a few reasons:
 * The source you cite does not explicitly call the crimes "violent domestic terrorism". Infact, if you read the sentence carefully, it doesn't even explicitly claim that these specific crimes are classified as violent (though one could infer that). Therefore to add the word yourself infront of the phrase "domestic terrorism", only to shoot it down with statistics is both unfair and misrepresentative.
 * The word "violence", by definition, can include direct action against property or inanimate things. Thus not being listed as an official "violent crime" by whatever criteria one might choose, does not preclude is use as an adjective in this case, especially as it is not being used to refer to the crimes we are talking about specifically. Rockpocket 00:40, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The State Department source you quote doesn't, as far as i can tell, explicitly define terrorism as acts against people only: The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience. If we accept "violence" can be against property then it does not follow that "targets" must be human.
 * It just isn't relevent. We have stated the FBI's position, we have stated the ELF/defendent's counterpoint. Thats all we need. If we are going to include complex logical justifications for each POV into every counterpoint we are going to have a very long article that no-one will read. If you feel strongly about this, add it to the article here. Rockpocket 00:58, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * From Eugene Weekly "Of course, the Bush administration has a different definition, but even it's not consistent. The State Department terrorism definition focuses on violence against people, but the very broad FBI definition of domestic terrorism includes any politically motivated crime, including property sabotage. Even protest acts as small as clogging a toilet or graffiti are included in the FBI's lists of domestic terrorism incidents by animal rights and environmental groups.The FBI describes such political property damage as "violent." That contradicts the rules in the FBI's national Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) system. In the UCR, the leading source of U.S. crime statistics, the FBI defines "violent crime" as murder, rape, robbery and assault."

I think that it is important to include the FBI's stance on ELF/ALF but I think that criticism of the FBI's terrorism definition should be included. According to the FBI's definition pacifist Christian groups like Ploughshares are violent terrorist organizations. As far as the State Department definition goes I think violence against non-combatants does not include inanimate object or buildings which are also non-combatants. Dumpster 01:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Its not our place, as an encyclopaedia, to criticise anyone or anything. We simply describe what others say or do. Cherrypicking definitions from one agency (which clearly is meant to define crimes against the person) to condemn the reasoning of another (which is talking about politically motivated crimes) is not encyclopaedic. That may be fine for some opinion piece from a local newspaper, but not for stating as fact in Wikipedia. Whether the FBI's definitions are flawed or not, it makes no difference to the fact that they have labelled the ELF as a terrorist group. ELF disagree with that, and we have reported that too. Its not for us to take sides by trying to undermine either POV, especially since the sources being quoted are not explicit in what they say. Rockpocket 01:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Anna
I think there should be more info on Anna, the snitch informant/provactour who turned in the Auburn people. Perhaps even a page on her. This is the latest story I've seen on her. The Ungovernable Force 06:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The general feeling i get, is that detailing such accusations against individuals based only on info from alternative media is usually frowned upon. I guess if there is verifiable evidence of the reports (i.e. legal testimony or mainstream newsprint) then you could give it a go, but activist assertions or the word of lawyers for the accused is pretty unreliable in terms of verifiability.  Rockpock e  t  06:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well I'm having my own problems with infoshop right now. I don't even know where that is originally from, I just originally saw it on infoshop, but a lot of their stuff is reposted. There are probably other sources of info on her though. The Ungovernable Force 06:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * If there are mainstream stuff to back it up, then i have no problems with adding it. I'm just concerned about legitimising a witch hunt without basis in verifiable fact. The activist crowd are openly admitting to Green Scare paranoia at the moment, they are finding snitches behind every tree.  Rockpock e  t  06:40, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I think anna's pretty clearly an agent. I agree that we can't be too paranoid though--I was having that conversation today actually (oh no, I was on a cell phone, maybe the FBI was tracing it!). I'll look for any more mainstream articles on it. The Ungovernable Force 07:25, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * They'll be knocking at your door (of coming through feet first)! If you can find anything at all in the mainstream then i'm all for expanding her content.  Rockpock e t  07:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I've actually had a socialist college group I was involved with watched by an agent during a club day, and at our meeting that night. I think it had to do with the green scare though, since there were some arrests in my area. Actually, User:Adrian, who was hanging out with me at the time, even though he's not a radical (as far as I know) here on wikipedia is the person who tipped me off. He's a reporter for our school paper and recognized one of the two guys from one of the court hearings (he was wearing a trenchcoat and sunglasses, which was totally cliched). And the fact that the other one who posed as an anarchist came out and asked me if I was interested in doing anything illegal, and then asked if I had heard of the ELF a minute after I met him kinda gave it away. The Ungovernable Force 08:18, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh heh. Really sophisticated entrapment technique: "interested in doing anything illegal?" Obviously straight out of FBI school. To be honest, i'm about as far as you can get from a green activist (infact, i would most likely be seen as a legitimate target by them), but in writing this article i found it genuinely concerning how people indulding in a little bit of alternative activism, who had the misfortune to hang out with the wrong people at the wrong time, suddenly find themselves facing 20 years in jail for conspiracy. Then again, focusing the community anger at the informants themselves is kind of playing into their hands, i would think. There will always be someone else willing to snitch, its the people controlling them that are the real subjects of concern.  Rockpock e  t  08:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Arrested three young activists in California who had purchased ingredients at Kmart to make a plastic explosive—not realizing that their pal "Anna," a twenty-year-old anti-war protester with pink hair, long legs and an overtly stated hankering to blow shit up—was an FBI plant paid $75,000 for her troubles. One of the guys, with whom Anna sometimes shared a bed, now faces seventeen years behind bars [url http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11035255/the_rise__fall_of_the_ecoradical_underground/1]

Operation Backfire main article lacks most content in subsection
If you're looking for an improvement to make, merge the information into the main article, and cull the subsection, which is too long. -Jemmy Button 00:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Tre Arrow
We need some references describing his case as part of the 'Scare, especially since his crimes appear to have been committed before the first recorded use of the term. The article refers to the term that "has been used by activists to describe an 2006 sweep of arrests, convictions and grand jury indictments", not any and every activist that has been indicted. Please provide or else the material may be removed. 06:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I would def agree that Tre should not be included in this article. Murderbike (talk) 06:40, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Category nominated for deletion

 * I haven't been following this entry at all. But I do recall there being information on Briana Waters, who is in trial at the moment. However, why is this content being wholly deleted in the name of NPOV??? I think people are going way over board with trying to be neutral and are deleting very relevant content in the process, but I don't have the time to sift through it. Acumensch (talk) 11:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This needs main templates
Since each of the subjects of this article has his own article, the subsections on them should not simply repeat the text of their articles, instead they should summarize the role of each subject in the Green Scare and have a link--main--to the main article. Katr67 (talk) 16:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree. This article needs to be about the Green Scare concept. We should not detail every arrested ELF activist here, because that is suggesting we are endorsing the concept for those individuals. We are in danger of creating an article that is promoting a POV, rather than reporting on it. I'll do some work on this over the weekend and try and re-write it so it remains focused on the concept (compare with the Red Scare). Rockpock  e  t  20:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I note that our uncommunicative friend, Blueberrypie, has instead reversed my suggestion, adding, for example, main templates to subsections of Jeff Luers that direct here. That was not my intention. Katr67 (talk) 22:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Our uncommunicative friend is very close to being blocked for block evasion, and this will not help his case. I'll revert those when I get the chance. Rockpock  e  t  22:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Too bad, s/he started out looking like a productive editor. I already took care of Luers, not sure this has been done to any of the other articles. Katr67 (talk) 22:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this article suitable for WP?
There's no claim of notability in the article's lead, with regards to the name "Green Scare." Seems that the concept is more of a political expression of ALF/ELF than anything else, and therefore not Wikipedia material. Perhaps an article on the Green movement in the United States or some such, with coverage of the government's response to it, might be worthwhile. But I'm not sure "Green Scare" is something that merits an article. (Also, I'm not sure about the IMC qualifying as a reliable source.) -Pete (talk) 21:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm beginning to think the same thing myself, especially since the most notable (and best sourced) incidents are essentially duplicated at Operation Backfire (FBI). Its almost like a POV fork of that article, in somre respects. Rockpock  e  t  21:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * For one thing, the Green Scare is definitely a separate topic the a general green movemnent in the US. It refers to specific cases. As for notability, a quick google search brings up references in notable publications like CounterPunch, the Pasadena Weekly, Z Magazine, In These Times, The Austin Chronicle, and even the journal Nature. And that's just counting the first 16 (!) pages of results. And not everyone involved in Operation Backfire is included in the Green Scare. If there are content problems, we should fix them, not roundaboutedly talk about deletion. Murderbike (talk) 21:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was looking at those too, but most are pretty trivial. For example, in Counterpunch we have as the sole mention "Briana Waters is a victim of the "Green Scare" the federal government's hysterical, post-911 witch-hunt against environmental activists, and its overzealous charging tendencies." but that is the only mention. In Nature the only mention is "Lauren Regan, head of the Civil Liberties Defense Center in Eugene, calls the [Backfire] arrests the 'green scare', a play on the 'red scare' of the 1950s in which US citizens with communist ties were persecuted." In The International Journal of Inclusive Democracy, "The Red Scare of communism has morphed into the Green Scare of ecoterrorism, where the bad guy today is not a commie but an animal, environmental, or peace activist."  These all document that the term is used, but none of them help us write an article on what it is beyond an extended definition.
 * These sources are better however, although they are not the most reliable of sources, they nevertheless address the issue and associate specific actions with the term. We can certainly use them. However, you say "not everyone involved in Operation Backfire is included in the Green Scare". Really? Which reference says that, do you ahve a source that defines precisely what is and is not part of the Green Scare? Rockpock  e  t  22:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV problems, etc.
This article is just a place for people to push the POV that these cases were prosecuted too harshly, hence the "scare" term. An article on this topic needs a neutral title. This article, like a lot of articles (Copyfraud,Miscarriage of justice) is about a POV position and then lists examples, which means that those examples are being used to take the opinion that those meet the POV stance of the people who use the term.

On top of that, a number of the sources do not meet WP:RS standards. Some geocities page, minor newsletter of pro-environmental terrorism, etc. are not reliable sources for an enyclopedia article. DreamGuy (talk) 16:00, 18 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But this article concerns precisely the term that environmentalists are using to convey their perspective that a couple of prosecutions were too harsh... If we change the tile, it will be about something else. I mean, do we need to change the name of the article Unabomber for President, because someone might see this as having a pro-unabomber POV? That is the very name of the campaign. Maziotis (talk) 13:54, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

RfC
An RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

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Discussion at NPOVN
There is currently a discussion at Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding determining potential neutral point of view issues with this article. The thread is Green Scare. Thank you. — Mikehawk10 (talk) 04:17, 10 October 2021 (UTC)